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60:40
Because bravery can be confused with stupidity. A good Bayonetta knows damn well how to punish amazingly because of witch time, if your strategy is to get hit by WT 3 times, that's a ****ton of percentage you've received if you're still alive. Not to mention you're saying that going full aggro afterwards is good option. It isn't, as Bayo can decide to go full on defensive and end up WTing you again. "WORKS IN GENERAL" you say? What if you use a character that doesn't have the best framd data, making them MORE suspectible to WT? You're reminding me of a kid who went full aggro Mewtwo and then proceeded to cry about Ganondorf being OP because he kept punishing him. I can't stop being shocked at how you're telling people to charge in headfirst into one of the best characters in the game and that it's crucial to victory. I wanna know how you beat Cloud, do you roll back and forth when he' charging limit because it might scare the Cloud player?
Ho, pre-patch ZSS had a matchup against Diddy that's as bad, possibly even worse, than M2's Diddy matchup is now. That did not prevent her from being an undisputed top 3 character. And if you're one of the increasing amount of people that question Diddy's place among the top 3 then it'd definitely make sense to just see it as not that big a deal.
Rosalina and Fox have enough results in top level play to confirm that Diddy does not lose these matchups.
Marth and Lucina are names you've pulled out of your *** ... there's nothing that suggests that Diddy loses.
Olimar is a maybe, there's still not really such a thing as anti-Olimar metagame so I still think it's up in the air.
Sheik I'd personally agree with but you'd have to argue against results that are, once again, even.
I don't think Diddy is the best either but if he beats M2, Bayonetta and ZSS while not losing to any of the other top tiers he's still a strong contender. Olimar and Mega Man are not characters you can just pick up as a secondary to deal with Diddy so I feel like the threat of these two characters is a bit overstated.
Your top 3 would be Bayonetta, Mewtwo and Mario [not necessarily in order], right?
See, that's where I'm not even semi-confident anymore. Having Sonic, who solo-won Umebura SAT in such a convincing fashion and who may not have any losing matchup at all [worth pointing out that both SM and San lost to a Sonic player at TBH6 so he now has two wins against the character he had the worst record against], at a mere 8th just seems not acceptable in any way to me. Mario has two major tournament wins with two different players and so does Rosalina. That means you somehow have to determine who is better. Even if you found an order for them you'd have to somehow fit in Fox who actually has the most consistent results - and why would you place a character that's never been lower than 5th on Das Koopa's rankings as low as 8th?
No matter in which way you order those 4 characters in particular, it just aways seems wrong to me.
1. I said that Marth and Lucina MIGHT win the matchup. I think this because Mr. E beat ZeRo and Nairo almost beat ZeRo and ZeRo is still definitely the best player in the world. Marth and Lucina can out range Diddy's limbs. Marth and Lucina vs Diddy possibly even or to Diddy's favour too.Ho, pre-patch ZSS had a matchup against Diddy that's as bad, possibly even worse, than M2's Diddy matchup is now. That did not prevent her from being an undisputed top 3 character. And if you're one of the increasing amount of people that question Diddy's place among the top 3 then it'd definitely make sense to just see it as not that big a deal.
Rosalina and Fox have enough results in top level play to confirm that Diddy does not lose these matchups.
Marth and Lucina are names you've pulled out of your *** ... there's nothing that suggests that Diddy loses.
Olimar is a maybe, there's still not really such a thing as anti-Olimar metagame so I still think it's up in the air.
Sheik I'd personally agree with but you'd have to argue against results that are, once again, even.
I don't think Diddy is the best either but if he beats M2, Bayonetta and ZSS while not losing to any of the other top tiers he's still a strong contender. Olimar and Mega Man are not characters you can just pick up as a secondary to deal with Diddy so I feel like the threat of these two characters is a bit overstated.
Your top 3 would be Bayonetta, Mewtwo and Mario [not necessarily in order], right?
See, that's where I'm not even semi-confident anymore. Having Sonic, who solo-won Umebura SAT in such a convincing fashion and who may not have any losing matchup at all [worth pointing out that both SM and San lost to a Sonic player at TBH6 so he now has two wins against the character he had the worst record against], at a mere 8th just seems not acceptable in any way to me. Mario has two major tournament wins with two different players and so does Rosalina. That means you somehow have to determine who is better. Even if you found an order for them you'd have to somehow fit in Fox who actually has the most consistent results - and why would you place a character that's never been lower than 5th on Das Koopa's rankings as low as 8th?
No matter in which way you order those 4 characters in particular, it just aways seems wrong to me.
I know it's debatable I didn't just say it because their my mains
"Dabuz is the only good Rosalina player at the moment"
Oh please. Next you're gonna tell me Link goes even with Sheik or something redic- oh wait.Okay, as I promised, I'm going to talk about the Link vs Bayonetta Match-Up. You guys will definitely think that I'm crazy for stating how the MU goes, in my own opinion at least, but as I explain my reasoning, you'll at least understand where I'm coming from.
Okay, so I've meddled with the MU for a bit more than I did lately and I just find it as a 60:40 for various reasons.
I'm not going into the attributes, so I'll skip straight to CQC. Due to Link having mostly better frame data than Bayonetta, especially with Bayonetta's fastest ground attacks are as fast as Link's Jab, Link definitely has a chance to go into a CQC offense against Bayonetta, and it's truly the best chance that he has against any character, really. However, Bayonetta does have some advantages against Link that are obvious, including more reward on the attacks that she uses. That's why a CQC with Link, while useful, isn't always going to be necessary.
In terms of advantage and disadvantage, Link's advantage state against Bayonetta is actually pretty decent off-stage. He can shut down Bayonetta's recovery if she tries recovering from above, since he has Gale Boomerang, Bomb and Forward Air to punish Bayonetta's Afterburner Kick. And what I find very useful for Link is when Bayonetta hits the stage with Afterburner Kick. I feel as if people don't actually punish this enough, but trust me, when you hit the stage as Bayonetta, you should be getting punished more than Cloud does with his Up-B. I take advantage of that and I could use Forward Smash, Forward Tilt, Down Smash 1/2, Forward Aerial or Down Aerial. I have many attacks at my disposal to punish her hitting the wall of a stage.
As for vertical advantage, Bayonetta does indeed have the better advantage when it comes from attacking below Link. The DI that's required is definitely applicable there, and so is the SDI. But Bayonetta will definitely get a lot of hits in before Link could possibly escape, and there's still the slightest chance Bayonetta will kill Link. However, Bayonetta players, be warned. Don't be too damn cocky against Link. If you have at least 20% to 40% damage and Link gets under you, it's over if he pulls out an up aerial or up special. Don't go too high against him when you combo him, because once he's under, he's at the advantage.
As for disadvantage state, both Link and Bayonetta indefinitely have a similar amount of disadvantage against one another. Bayonetta definitely does have better disadvantage against Link, but it's not by a whole lot. The disadvantage she's definitely worse at is recovering above the stage, which I detailed before is something you should never do against Link. That doesn't mean Link has a better time than Bayonetta when recovering. He's just as susceptible to off-stage disadvantage as Bayonetta is, but he still has a lot of great options with his good recovery. While people believe Bayonetta's Down Smash and aerials do cover Link's attempts to get back on stage, Link still does have options with Bombs, has Recoil B-Reverse going for him and also has Clawshot to aid him. Down Smash is something you shouldn't be getting hit by if you're Link. All you've got to use is Link's Tether and Down Smash won't get you.
Now when Bayonetta recovers below stage, Link definitely has his own options, and the most effective ones are his Down Aerial and Bombs. Bombs force Bayonetta to recover more safely and closer to being under the stage, but that's not to say they won't always hit. But the one way to guarantee Bayonetta does indeed get punished for recovering under the stage is Down Aerial. If Bayonetta air dodges this, then she'll lose the stock. If Bayonetta is hit by this, she'll potentially get stage spiked. It doesn't always happen, but it's best to take the chance of sending her down. Another method of stage spiking is Neutral Aerial, albeit it's definitely not as safe as the others since you're going to need to be more up-close.
I've touched on it so many times before, but now let me just state it. Bayonetta hates Bombs. She absolutely should. These very awful projectile eating balls of fire can really, really screw Bayonetta up. Now Bayonetta would have an easier time against Toon Link's Bombs, but Link's Bombs are on a different level both off and on stage. You have Link's Boomerang being able to cover some options against Bayonetta, but Bombs can cover a lot more options against her, not just with impeding her recovery or giving Link a clean hit. No, it does more than that. Once Link releases a Bomb with Z-Drop and gets behind it, you're effectively cutting off one of Bayonetta's options in comboing Link, Heel Slide. Bombs will always beat Heel Slide and Link will get a good punish off of it.
But it's just not Heel Slide that can be covered. Many of the attacks that Bayonetta does can be covered by Bombs due to their surprising priority. And not only that, but if Link keeps a Bomb in his hand while Bayonetta performs a combo, he's essentially holding a combo breaker in his hand; now on the flipside, he can also have a suicide move in his hand, but he might also hit Bayonetta if lucky enough. Bombs are a go to projectile in this Match-Up and while they are used a lot, Bayonetta could just feel the pressure coming at her with these. These basically make Bayonetta players resort to other methods of trying to hit Link. Many work, some, not so much.
Witch Time is something that people seem to be very afraid of when it activates. And granted, it's scary to think that combos can come out of it. But really, what you're scared of is very miniscule in stature when you pressure and condition your opponent Bayonetta as Link. What's the only viable option Bayonetta has against Link's Down Throw > Up Tilt? It's not an aerial, it's not Bullet Climax, it's more than likely going to be an air dodge or a Witch Time. With an air dodge, Bayonetta will likely get a decent little cheeky punish, but it's not going to be some really scary punish. And yet she could also get Witch Time, which could lend itself into being a good punish. Now of course, she could also jump and try punishing with an aerial, but that's just all too predictable and punishable.
But here's the thing. Even at its strongest, I'm not scared of Witch Time in the slightest. This is because I know that it has the chance of coming out. Opponents would love to have Witch Time to punish Link. So I'll make sure to condition that reaction to them; now they'll figure it out, but of course, I can cover many more of their options. Heck, an attempted punish out of jump from a Bayonetta would likely mean getting grabbed and Up Tilted once again by Link.
Now of course, I'm not only talking about Witch Time after conditioning or using Down Throw as Link. I'm talking about in general. Yes, I've been hit by it, but when I make sure the opponent has used it 3 times, that's when I simply will go on the offensive instead of playing it cool, because I'll know then that it's going to be the best opportunity to strike Bayonetta. That's not just with Link, that's in general.
Okay, now while you don't necessarily have to agree with me, remember that this is an opinion. You can challenge it, you can refute it even, but at the end of the day, it's an opinion of mine, and I'm open to critique and challenging of this. This does come from my own experiences against various Bayonetta players, whether online, offline, friendlies or competitive matches.
But as for my final thoughts, Link is a deadly character against Bayonetta, not because he has better range and has projectiles that can cover Bayonetta, but Link definitely does have the better frame data and has a really good CQC against Bayonetta, as well as a great off-stage disadvantage in certain instances against Bayonetta. Link is a very strong character, but like all characters, he can be combo'd by Bayonetta very harshly and definitely does have some bad disadvantage states against her, but his overall options that can cover her own options can definitely be the game changer in this.
That's why I believe the MU is 60:40 for Link. He's a character who can cover the options she has that many other characters just cannot do, and he's one of those kinds of characters who basically forces Bayonetta players to try things they would not normally do because he covers the normal options.
I said they MIGHT lose the matchup because Marth and Lucina disjointed hit boxes which can also outrange Diddy's limbs. However I do agree with what you say about edgeguarding
That's almost every top Sheik nowadays, unfortunately
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oh yeah, you're new here. Marcina is a subject nobody really likes talking about anymore, there's a big ass stigma against Marcina because it gets brought up all the time
Oh ok thanks
Spindash-less Sonic is actually more effective than spindash heavy Sonic in some MUs, believe it or not.
My thought process was kinda like this:
Dabuz only failed to make top 8 once this entire year: At pound. In that tournament, Nairo came 49th, the lowest placing at a major tournament out of the top 10 ever (Tied with Ally's 49th at CEO). As I already mentioned, the only supermajor in 1.1.6 this year Nairo did notably well at was SSC (And now TBH6), but SSC was the tournament where all his personal demons, as well as every decent diddy player, were knocked to losers and eliminated before he could face them, giving him an extremely easy bracket. Once again, Nairo's major flaw is that he's a one-trick pony: He's going to grab you and try and take you off the top, something that players are adapting to more and more as time goes on, and because Nairo hasn't really showed any attempt to change his playstyle, he's becoming and will continue to become weaker as time goes on, as shown by people like Komorikiri going from a negative record against him to a positive one in a relatively short time.
Okay, I can understand that you're surprised about this, but again, I am going to stand strong on my thought that the MU is 6-4 Link's advantage, and I'm going to address your points, though at the time, I should have made my points on some of these:
To be fair, getting *hit* by Witch Time on purpose is crazy. Baiting it, on the other hand, makes it way less scary subsequent times.
That's true, but Larry isn't saying 'bait it' but 'get hit by it'
At low percents their use as an interruption tool is markedly decreased, at the spacing where they can't be punished you've added further pressure onto your opponent but not enough that opponents won't still end up closing space on you. I shouldn't have added in the discussion about damage because it wasn't relevant to the point I was aiming to make- at low percents it just not enough of an interruption to really stop players, at least in my experience, though you have a good point about conditioning.
Bayo hates bombs? Any item user is at risk of having their competent opponent regrab it and throw it back, for starters.
I think Marcina wins. Just by a little
The reason Nairo isn't changing up his playstyle is because his results are bonkers and better than just about everyone else's, just like he's better at the game than just about everyone.
TDK
you seem to be saying that Nairo crutches off of abusing ZSS's options, when he really abuses the fact that he's absurdly good at Smash. Saying that he's a one trick pony is crazy. Nairo is one of the most adaptive players and plays very optimally. Saying he gets his results off of up air x2 up b and floating through ez brackets when he is and has been beating the best players in the world for years is crazy.
No I'm not. That's what you're thinking.
What I'm meaning is that I'm not wanting to get hit by Witch Time. The only times I'd want Witch Time to activate is when a projectile comes towards Bayonetta and I'm too far for her to activate it on me.
Bombs do one solid thing for Link: they blow up. While that sounds dumb, when Link's holding a bomb you have 6 seconds at absolute most to ladder Link off the top (assuming he pulls out a bomb and then the Bayo instantly starts the ladder), and if the bomb blows up at the top, Bayo is actually liable to die for trying her ladder. They don't win Link the matchup (I personally think it's -1 though I only go as negative as -2 for any character I do a matchup chart except for very specific circumstances like Little Mac vs PAC-MAN, Little Mac vs Peach, Ganon vs Sheik/Rosa/ZSS/Bayo), but they do force Bayo to respect the bomb while Link's holding it.
Oh, I think Nairo is phenomenal. I really do. I just don't see how Nairo's relatively inconsistent (In comparison to other top 5/10 players) make him a better player than Dabuz, who is the literal picture of consistency. Just my opinion though.The reason Nairo isn't changing up his playstyle is because his results are bonkers and better than just about everyone else's, just like he's better at the game than just about everyone.
Nairo is ridiculous lol. It's easy to tell why he's a top player who can beat any other top player and who has like... The second or third best results of any player in this game's two year lifespan.
I also don't see why this Nairo falling off thing is a conversation after he top eighted a major yesterday, even if it's perhaps not up to his standard as a top five player who normally gets top 1-4.
Larry mentioned earlier that a blown up bomb to interupt a ladder combo also risks killing Link. If Bayo could time it, she could purposely stop right before it blows up too.
Agreed. It's not infallible, but it does force Bayo to respect link.
Talking about a lot of thigns Marcina related is a bit controversial. This ranges from talking about how viable Marth is nowadays all the way to just basically mentioning Lucina.
