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You said you wait for 3 WTs and get hit
Here's the context of the first thing. So think of it this way; when Witch Time whiffs or connects, the time that Bayonetta has to punish a character decreases slowly. What I mean is that I fool the Bayonetta into using the move, but not activating it. Which means, as a result, if I'm hit by Witch Time after the second or third time, the window to punish me is very short. So there'd be very little risk in me going a little more aggressive.
But that means the Bayo has to whiff that often, and good bayos don't whiff like their life depends on it. Not to mention how the punish could still be good depending on what's done, there's still a good reward there, just not as good as otherwise. This would only work on someone who has no clue what they're doing, and it's not like Bayonetta NEEDS Witch Time to punish
If a Bayo is whiffing Witch Time unintentionally and using it more than twice before letting it "recharge" or "reset" then you're fighting a really bad Bayoneta. Watch Salem. He purposely whiffs a few times against projectiles but all in all is nearly flawless. I'll post a video here shortly for you
From what I heard Ken pulled out Corrin once and it didn't work. However I am wondering how good the reverse is,
can cover 's bad MUs where his weakness in mobility is exploited (An exception being as they both struggle with him). With so many top players occasionally using (nah its always) whether its for doubles or singles I'm curious if Corrin will be more of a future counterpick/secondary in the meta, not to the lv of but somewhere around the area of .
I agree that she doesn't always need it to punish. Some of my opponents don't even use it unless they're guaranteed to hitting it.
Well, multiple examples is better than just one single example.
I'm not an expert as I mostly lurk to learn ****, but from what I've seen, Bayo just plays bait and punish or uses her *ahem* 'bad neutral' meme. Even then, I'm still waiting for someone like i dunno emblem lord to dissect the entire argument you have
Most regulars just ignore Radical Larry, just sayin.
https://youtu.be/wLE4yrjRvyk
Sakurai, ik you probably don't care anymore but why doesn'tHere's a set from SU Fire fighting Gluttony, France's best player as of now.
's Seismic Toss kill at 112% with MAX RAGE?
Cause it was stale. The one right before it would've killed if he pummeled once.Sakurai, ik you probably don't care anymore but why doesn't
I agree with most of what you have been saying but bombs are different than gyros and bananas. If a bomb hits a shield it no longer counts as an active hitbox but it still has a hurtbox so Bayo can't drop on it and WT (Witch time) like bananas but it will still stop her ground sideB. She could time WT to when it explodes but I would hope Link is somewhere behind the bomb throwing boomerangs and arrows at her. Bombs blow up 220 frames from being spawned -23 frames of bomb pull lag and 4-8 to throw at fastest so you have about 3 seconds to use Link's bombs against him if you catch it. Link should delay throws to prevent this too. Most of the time catching Link's bombs is more of a hindrance to the opponent, unlike gyros or bananas (unless you have bucket or PSIMagnet).
Mr. R has actually had a Cloud since at least BEAST 6 in February where he used him in a couple of matches, and also won the Key to PG House (which was online, but still) with him, only going Sheik once. So it's not like he just pulled him out of nowhere and got a win on Dabuz with him, he does actually play the character. And pocket Clouds don't always work out either. Kamemushi tried Cloud VS Ally at EVO, didn't work. Scatt tried Cloud VS Dabuz at Smash Con, didn't work. It just depends on the situation in my opinion. He is easy to use, but definitely not always the best option if your main doesn't work out.
Good points but regardless Mr. R had no planning in that pick, it was clearly spur of the moment. Again the proof being him going Sheik and Bayo first. This suggests he had no intention of using him seriously in tournament and he only went him out of desperation.
Somewhat... Faster fallers can't get stairway'd as consistently, but bayo can come down with nair/dABK to set up an edgeguard still.
I think it's mainly just Cloud. I don't see other pocket DLC characters taking out top players. Only dedicated mains.
What's so dumb about Lucas? He's probably the most honest DLC character that isn't as unviable as Roy.
I decided to do a bit more research into each player's set history from 1.1.6 onwards:... why do I feel like people are always forgetting about Fatality? Hasn't the dude placed like 9th or 13th [or higher] at just about every major tournament recently? Basically since Genesis in the beginning of the year he always finds his way up there through losers bracket and collects some impressive wins on the way. Added up his results / wins are possibly better than Tweek's or Mr E's.
Nope. You can jump and up-B on the same frame.
Just doubles stuff.
He had max rage and killed Olimar center stage at 77 percent with LCS. It was a good comeback but let's not pretend Cloud and Smash 4's bad design choices (rage) had nothing to do with it.
Ally beat Wrath with a pocket Cloud, MK Leo also beat Dabuz with Cloud and what about doubles where top players often ditch their mains and use him instead? I'm sure if you looked harder, you'd find several more examples of it working. People wouldn't attempt it all the time if it rarely worked.
I'll bite. If a player can beat another player of equivalent strength in their first instance of playing a character against a player of equivalent strength, and couldn't with their main of 2 years, then that would speak a lot to the character that they used well to win the set, regardless of what you call it.
Within the confines of the game the exact same **** could've happened back, don't care. Cloud is how the game is and attempting to downplay it because of "poor design choices" is a failure to accept what this game is. Rage and comebacks like this are a fundamental part of the game, Limit Side-B or not.
verbatim
if you demonstrate extensive knowledge of a character I don't call that a pocket. I don't know who tf does, my friend had a pocket Kim in KOFXIII because he never practiced Kim but just did ****, used him when he felt like it. I have a pocket Ken in Super Turbo, I do not have a pocket Balrog because I regularly practice Balrog.I don't like the word secondary being used here.Cloud being a great secondary character is about as old as old news could possibly get.
Mr E also has 3-0ed Dabuz at Invasion 8.
He would not have died. LCS has barely any ending lag and is safe on block, that's why you see Clouds throw it out all the time in neutral. That was a no risk option from Mr. R, it wasn't a gamble at all. Unless Dabuz pre-emptively rolled behind him which would have been a hard read on the EXACT moment he was about to do it (and if he was wrong Mr.R could LCS the roll on reaction making it a huge gamble).Within the confines of the game the exact same **** could've happened back, don't care. Cloud is how the game is and attempting to downplay it because of "poor design choices" is a failure to accept what this game is. Rage and comebacks like this are a fundamental part of the game, Limit Side-B or not.
If he had ****ed up on that LCS he would've been dead, plain and simple. There is absolutely no way he would not have died, 2 purples and a blue pikmin on LYLAT at like 150% is a special kind of hell and I am genuinely surprised Mr. R had the mental fortitude to come out of that and win, but we'd rather focus on the fact that he didn't do it with Sheik rather than the fact that he did it at all. That's the real thing that separates weaker players from stronger ones in this game, the ability to look beyond solely character matchups and focus on player interactions.
For the record Smash 4 is a myriad of poor design choices and rambling about it as if it's old news or news that surprises anyone is pretty futile. You could talk about Rage, random untechables winning sets, horizontal vectoring killing the usage of a few moves for their intended purposes optimally, the aerial input lock buffer, the 6f of input lag (this is a minor issue vs. the rest), the existence of a Z-Axis....
Simply put I do not respect the statements provided at all.
Doubles is an entire story and that's an incredibly fair argument, I won't challenge that as it's not relevant to Mr. R's success here at all.
What you described in the case of Mr. R is legitimately what we call a "secondary" when it comes to anything else besides Cloud, apparently.
Nope
LCS is -9 on block and Olimar's grab is pretty far. If Olimar blocked it he would've either grabbed or retreated some more because safety on block in Smash 4 is solely numbers (relative numbers at that) and not as significant as many would think. The reason is simple, besides shield damage this game does not have high lows nor does any more even have remotely close to enough frame advantage for the next move you do to be safe or unpunishable. This is a fighting game where only jump ins can be safe, effectively (LCS is safe in that it's effectively frame neutral except it's not because certain dashgrabs can beat it and you can roll in between certain hits of it which has been demonstrated before). If you block LCS you just fall back (or roll in between the hits), what's he threatening you with next especially at 150%? Limit charge? At 150% there were two purples and a blue, if LCS had been blocked he would've had to retreat and find enough time to fully charge up Limit (an accumulated 7.5 seconds) without getting hit because Purples AND without getting grabbed bcuz blues. If it was blocked he would've been effectively dead.
Greward
Sheik can dashgrab Cloud out of it at the end, it's -9. He has no followup options after it besides retreating. Safety is far more relevant when actual followups exist and not just more guesses.Olimar's grab is a 10 frame startup. And that's just the initial hitbox, it would take some time being a tether to travel across to Cloud. So yeah, a shield grab would not work.
Actually he went for the grab. (Blue pikmin was on deck, then after the hit the queue has a purple)
You're right, he would've had to charge for another 7.5 seconds and just not get hit at all period, that's a very realistic scenario against Dabuz. Oh did I say just hit? I mean also not grabbed latter. My apologies.
DunnoBro
I see. Having a guaranteed punish in this scenario doesn't really matter because Cloud's pretty ****ed to begin with lol. Touch him or grab him and he effectively dies. He was at kill % for basically anything, the only way he'd be able to accrue Limit would be to just not get touched after LCS was blocked which isn't exactly easy against Dabuz.
