Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Frihetsanka]

Tweek's Cloud Matchup Chart, spoilered for those of you who are chart-sensitive.

Corrin is 45:55 at worst, potentially even.

 

[Laken64]

IzAw has decided to drop link in tournaments

Didn't even make it out of pools -_-, sad

I need a new main, Link is too hard to have as a main in tournament

sigh, sorry :/

— IzAw (@Izawsmash) February 18, 2017

I think Cloud or Mario is gonna be my new main, Link as secondary

— IzAw (@Izawsmash) February 18, 2017

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I seriously doubt Cloud is going to drop anywhere in Solo Play. If anything Cloud's solo results have just been getting better and better recently. Same thing with his MU chart. Its even looking like Bayo beating Cloud is becoming a meme now. With Lots of Cloud's have been wrecking Bayo users in recent tournaments
Gimping Cloud is textbook easier said than dome unless your using Sheik or a select few other characters. ZeRo takes about how Mario/Luigi/Fox and other characters have moves that can gimp Cloud but how much have we seen it in practice?

I mean its been well over a year since Cloud has been out and I do not see him getting gimped or exploited offstage much than when he first came out.

What other disadvantages does he have?

 

[Goombo]

What other disadvantages does he have?

A mediocre grab game and a lack of good forward facing pokes.

 

[The-Technique]

What other disadvantages does he have?

Combo food and bad disadvantage. Unlike other top tiers Cloud can't side b or down b his way out of danger.

Mediocre, high committal grounded moves and a lousy grab game, too.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Combo food and bad disadvantage.

This sounds hard to do if his neutral is as good as everyone says.

 

[Trunks159]

Well he still has his dair and nair, and his uair shifts his hurtbox making it difficult to hit him when he uses it. Good air speed and ledge options also help. When backed into a corner, he still has nair OoS.

Cloud's disadvantage is fine.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Nah, his disadvantage really isn't fine at all. The one thing that's sorta overstated is his poor grab reward. Characters without strong combo throws still do fine if they have a chargeable move and/or good ledgetrapping. Cloud has both.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Whether or not Cloud's disadvantage state is lacklustre compared to the cast as a whole is debatable, but overall it's decidedly worse than most of the other top tier characters, as well as a good chunk of the high tiers. That means that most characters with consistent tournament success are going to have a better disadvantage state than Cloud does.

And for the camp of "nerf Cloud, heez chip!," I don't think it would solve much, as are almost everyone's 2nd worst or worst MU either way, but that's another whole story.

It's less a case of 'Cloud needs nerfs' and more like 'the characters he goes +2 or better against need buffs'. Because while Cloud has a lot of +2 MUs, generally it's against characters who already have a similarly tough time with at least 2 other top tier characters.

 

[Emblem Lord]

IzAw has decided to drop link in tournaments

Didn't even make it out of pools -_-, sad

I need a new main, Link is too hard to have as a main in tournament

sigh, sorry :/

— IzAw (@Izawsmash) February 18, 2017

I think Cloud or Mario is gonna be my new main, Link as secondary

— IzAw (@Izawsmash) February 18, 2017

We should all be proud of him.

Assuming he is dropping them to increase his chances of winning.

 

[Rizen]

We should all be proud of him.

Assuming he is dropping them to increase his chances of winning.

Why?! The guy claimed to be the best Link for a long time and threw a fit when ZeRo called Scizor the best Link. Now he's quitting because he can't get anywhere and you want to be "proud" of him .

 

[Emblem Lord]

If he threw a fit then that's a wussy move. But if he feels he has gone as far as he can go and Link is holding him back then more power to him.

 

[TDK]

From what it sounds like, he's dropping Link because Link is "too hard" to use in tournaments. And then he goes and says "I'm going to main Cloud or Mario", confirming all he really wants is an easy win button.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Nothing wrong with that. Everyone has different thoughts, feelings and philosophies.

We tend to put low tier players on pedestals for sticking it out.

Bunch of hero worship garbage.

 

[Rizen]

I'm in a bad mood about something else already so I'm sitting this conversation out.

About Cloud's disadvantage; it's not too bad but other top tiers do seem to have amazing get out of jail free cards, except Fox. Cloud's airspeed, auto canceling Dair and huge freaking sword in general obviously help. He's not in as bad a space as characters like DK.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Which is why I said ZSS cannot be NOT top 10. Her down b is just too stupid. It was clearly intended to be used to get out of disadvantage and it does the job well.

 

[|RK|]

I mean, if Link isn't working for him, he isn't working for him.

Doesn't mean the character is bad or whatever. I always say look at Dath and Raziek. Robin works with Dath better than Robin worked with Raziek, which is why Dath still has more success despite the latter's switch to Cloud.

Besides, we have T coming to Frostbite, so I wouldn't be worried about top level rep.

Anyways, I'mma leave this here:

 

[The-Technique]

This sounds hard to do if his neutral is as good as everyone says.

Just takes patience. If you're jumping or running into Cloud you're going to get swatted away easily, but with patience you will land that grab and go to town (really helps that Ike's footstool d-Air is really easy to land on Cloud)

 

[Das Koopa]

It's less a limitation of Link in tourney (Note: He lost to a Charizard and a Greninja) and more that Izaw isn't that great at the game. Switching mains won't help. Cat would've done better, let alone Scizor or T (who would've easily cracked Top 16 if not Top 8).

He's just better at analyzing the game than he is playing it.

 

[Yikarur]

I don't believe he has ever seriously claimed to be the best Link.
And of course playing a low mid tier is a limitation. It's the correct choice to switch to a Top Tier. Only a world class player can SOMETIMES get good results with a bad character.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Which is why I said ZSS cannot be NOT top 10. Her down b is just too stupid. It was clearly intended to be used to get out of disadvantage and it does the job well.

I legitimately believe that you could give that move to any bottom-of-the-barrel character and they'd immediately become mid tier.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Hrmmm if a character isn't working for you or your playstyle then it isn't working for you. Unless you're like me and are a die-hard character loyalist you are going to be going through the character list until you find the character that best fits your playstyle. God knows I've spotted it when I've had an easier time using certain characters. (I crushed a tourney in regular tourney mode using mewtwo without much difficulty)

 

[Das Koopa]

's top level matchup record from February 2016 to now against

Spoiler

Abadango 3-0 Ned (Ignition 28)
Abadango 3-2 Ned (Ignition 28)
Abadango 2-1 Mew2King (Smash & Splash 2)
Abadango 2-0 Z-Tan (Waseda Festival 2016)
komorikiri 3-2 Abadango (2GGT: ZeRo Saga)
Mao 2-1 Abadango (SGC 2017)
Abadango 3-1 Tweek (GENESIS 4)
RAIN 2-1 Rich Brown (CEO 2016)
komorikiri 2-0 Rich Brown (EVO 2016)
SS 2-1 Ric Brown (2GGT: KTAR Saga)
ANTi 3-1 Rich Brown (SSC 2016)
komorikiri 3-1 Rich Brown (MSM 67)
MKLeo 3-1 Rich Brown (GENESIS Saga)
WaDi 2-0 Seibrik (SSC 2016)
Ned 2-1 Demitus (Endgame)
MewSquared 3-0 Mew2King (Super Bit Wars 4)
Mew2King 2-1 Leo Heart

Mewtwo - 7
Cloud - 10

Roughly a 59% win rate for Cloud.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Abadango is 5-2, Rich Brown 0-5, Mew2King (who, ironically enough, does not play Mewtwo) 1-2, komorikiri 3-0.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Just takes patience. If you're jumping or running into Cloud you're going to get swatted away easily, but with patience you will land that grab and go to town (really helps that Ike's footstool d-Air is really easy to land on Cloud)

I don't main Ike; I main Yoshi, and Cloud is said to be his hardest MU. Especially considering I haven't played this game in a while.

 

[Yonder]

's top level matchup record from February 2016 to now against

Spoiler

Abadango 3-0 Ned (Ignition 28)
Abadango 3-2 Ned (Ignition 28)
Abadango 2-1 Mew2King (Smash & Splash 2)
Abadango 2-0 Z-Tan (Waseda Festival 2016)
komorikiri 3-2 Abadango (2GGT: ZeRo Saga)
Mao 2-1 Abadango (SGC 2017)
Abadango 3-1 Tweek (GENESIS 4)
RAIN 2-1 Rich Brown (CEO 2016)
komorikiri 2-0 Rich Brown (EVO 2016)
SS 2-1 Ric Brown (2GGT: KTAR Saga)
ANTi 3-1 Rich Brown (SSC 2016)
komorikiri 3-1 Rich Brown (MSM 67)
MKLeo 3-1 Rich Brown (GENESIS Saga)
WaDi 2-0 Seibrik (SSC 2016)
Ned 2-1 Demitus (Endgame)
MewSquared 3-0 Mew2King (Super Bit Wars 4)
Mew2King 2-1 Leo Heart

Mewtwo - 7
Cloud - 10

Roughly a 59% win rate for Cloud.

Abadango is 5-2, Rich Brown 0-5, Mew2King (who, ironically enough, does not play Mewtwo) 1-2, komorikiri 3-0.

So...Pretty much still even matchup. It's more that Abadango knows how to play the matchup while Rich doesn't, looking at these statistics. Aba is FAR and away the best Mewtwo and if he is not losing to Clouds, Im going to base my ratio more on his win rate than Rich's, who is the 2nd best Mewtwo but rarely if ever gets top 8.

But even if Aba has beaten most Clouds, has he ever played MKLeo? I think beating Ned was huge, since he is probably the 2nd best Cloud, but Aba and Leo squaring off would be a nice determinant.

Tl;Dr: the win rate is basically 6-4 for Cloud vs M2, but other factors make it pretty much an even matchup in both theory and practice.

 

[Megamang]

...

Mao plays smash? And he beat Aba?! No wonder he is so honorable.

 

[chaos11011]

Here are the results of the New England Smash 4 Invitational. While being an extremely small tournament of only 42 players, it was done this way on purpose. All of New England's talent were invited. Raffi-X, Koolaid, and IceArrow, who couldn't make it, and NTarps and Hazmatt only played doubles. We also had a poll to invite up-and-coming players. Some players invited include Cagt, NibbyNibbyNub, and Chavo.


New England Smash 4 Invitational - 42 entrants

1. DNL | Marss
2. Light
3. Pugwest
4. Craftis
5. Kuma
5. FP | Kogarasuma
7. UG | LingLing
7. Soo | Pelca

One thing to note is that LingLing has been using Bayonetta a lot more frequently. I heard word that he was using Bayo more than Peach today. Might be warming her up for future tournaments.

 

[L9999]

Here are the results of the New England Smash 4 Invitational. While being an extremely small tournament of only 42 players, it was done this way on purpose. All of New England's talent were invited, and with the exception of players like Raffi-X, Koolaid, and IceArrow, who couldn't make it, they showed up. We also had a poll to invite up-and-coming players. Some players invited include Cagt, NibbyNibbyNub, and Chavo.


New England Smash 4 Invitational - 42 entrants

1. DNL | Marss
2. Light
3. Pugwest
4. Craftis
5. Kuma
5. FP | Kogarasuma
7. UG | LingLing
7. Soo | Pelca

One thing to note is that LingLing has been using Bayonetta a lot more frequently. I heard word that he was using Bayo more than Peach today. Might be warming her up for future tournaments.

Lucina getting a lot of love lately.

Which is why I said ZSS cannot be NOT top 10. Her down b is just too stupid. It was clearly intended to be used to get out of disadvantage and it does the job well.

Any idea why people discredit ZSS and say she is not top 10? Between her mobility, punishes and insane recovery I can't see how she isn't top 10, as arbitrary as it is.

 

[Aaron1997]

Smash Valley V (69 entrants)

1. Wadi
2. MVD
3. Sinji
4. Biddy
5. Volt
5.Weezy
7. Midnight
7. NessJesus

 

[Nobie]

Someone in this thread mentioned how Abadango seems to do better vs. Fox compared to other Mewtwos because his punishes are so much better. I wonder if this translates to the Cloud matchup as well (and also might be why he struggles vs. Diddy, a matchup where that's less important).

 

[ぱみゅ]

Lucina getting a lot of love lately.

Kogarasuma has been putting a lot of work recently, he's an up-and-coming player I personally would look forward to see him placing better in the future.

Any idea why people discredit ZSS and say she is not top 10? Between her mobility, punishes and insane recovery I can't see how she isn't top 10, as arbitrary as it is.

Because Nairo hasn't had as much outrage as before... Also a lot of people seem to not even notice the Nico Nico Tokaigi even happened.

 

[Megamang]

And as we get better at learning every characters' options, ZSS is very vulnerable to powershields on her predictable nair approaches. This is why I think zair pokes are the future, since they confirm pretty well (or at least start the advantage state she loves, if they aren't true confirms they sometimes really look like it.).

Another thing i'd like to add to her 'no way she isn't top 10' list is that bair. It is so fast, powerful, and ranged. You just don't see moves like that on mobile characters. They are for falco's, not ZSSes. Yea Fox's is amazing, but he has an actually punishable recovery, horrible disadvantage physics, and his bair still isn't as fast or ranged.


One 'flaw' with her flip jump is how people tend to overuse such options. (I quote it because this is actually a player flaw and isn't ZSS's fault). When Prince Ramen beat Zero, he called Monkey flips like crazy. When Elegant crushes diddies, he usually lands a shoryu on an ill-advised MF in neutral vs his backdash into Shoryu. Sometimes it is easy to call these options because they are so good that you HAVE to make a hard read to reach it, so the other player relies on it too much in disadvantage. And if you call flip jump with a character like Fox with a powerful uair, you hit her high, she is light... its not a good look.

But I can't really fault an option for being too good. Its just something we see today that i'd like to see less of. Hell, her recovery is so far reaching that you could opt to flip kick offstage/away from your opponent and still not have any fear of being gimped. Its really about abusing the invincible frames (that she, nor sonic, should have if I don't get it with rush ;_; )

 

[|RK|]

Tbh, the other thing about these mobility options is that they're being used to get away from you much of the time. So hard reads don't actually hurt you for trying in most cases.

Also, Bayonetta's bair is better than ZSS's. Which is mildly crazy considering how good ZSS's is.

 

[ARISTOS]

Tbh, the other thing about these mobility options is that they're being used to get away from you much of the time. So hard reads don't actually hurt you for trying in most cases.

Also, Bayonetta's bair is better than ZSS's. Which is mildly crazy considering how good ZSS's is.

Almost all the human limb bairs are crazy.

 

[TDK]

Super Smash Geek #5 (37 Entrants) (Quebec)

1st: Blacktwins
2nd: DarkAura
3rd: Z
4th: Deathorse

I think it's too small to count, but you count tournaments of this size so I might as well post it.

Elements Fighting Game Challenge 2 (44 Entrants) (BC)

1st: Big D
2nd: Locus
3rd: Captain L
4th: Shoghi

Again, I think these are too small but as long as you're counting tournaments with this many entrants it's my duty to post them.

 

[Megamang]

Did BigD beat Locus with DDD at all?

 

[TDK]

Did BigD beat Locus with DDD at all?

I'll have the answer for you in an hour or so. I have to watch the top 8 since I didn't catch it live, so I threw all three characters in there as a placeholder.

EDIT: 90% sure Big D went all

 

[verbatim]

Smash Valley V (69 entrants)

7. NessJesus I guess? His tag indicates it.

Ryu, apparently?

 

[L9999]

Spoiler

Larry Lurr playing freaking Falco

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqTDvlyBeoI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_FlhmMKpMs

I found this. Yes, it actually happened.