Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

What do you mean by OS?

 

[L9999]

Maybe Greninja himself doesn't work as a solo high main, or maybe the Greninja players just aren't all that good (relative to the tiptop of players.)

They are not bad, but they all have different backgrounds. In Japan everyone is good so getting consistent is not that easy, and the Greninjas aren't inmune to it. istudying performed OK when he came to America and he comes from FreEU (sounds rude but it is kinda true). The thing with Greninja players is that 1) they don't travel 2) they disappear for ridiculous lengths of time.

all the OSfrogs that i know of

Some (Japan)
Oisiitofu (Japan)
Lea (Japan)
aMSa (Japan)
iStudying (Netherlands)
DarkAura (Canada)
Elexiao (France)
Waveguider (Australia)
Venia (Tristate)
Illusion (Texas)
P2P with Gibus (Texas)
Strozai (Southwest)
Techei (MD/VA)
IceArrow (New England)
Jodi Bleek (NorCal)

Do you have an archive with all the notable mains of characters? Just curious.

 

[Rizen]

I've personally never even heard of a successful greninja pocket or secondary. typically the succesful greninjas are the ones that pretty much solo main or main with a secondary. Speaking of, who are all the notable greninja's again? istudying, Darkaura, Venia, Stroder (strozai) are the ones that come off the top of my head.

I think Scizor duel-mains and if that counts.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Zage>8BitMan 3-1

Zagewill win the trip to Frostbite Because Cosmos Has school

Cosmos was able to play the set and beat Zage 3-0, but I am not sure if he would be able to go to Frostbite.

 

[Das Koopa]

Weekend tournies:

B.E.A.S.T. 7 (Sweden)
Smash Valley V (Tristate)
Gator Gaming Winter Party 2017 (Florida)
Who's Your Pappy 6 (NorCal)
Salt Flats 2017 (West Canada)
Elements Fighting Games Challenge #2 (Pacific Northwest)

Exclusively for OrionRank:

Chubu Round Robin Invitational (Chubu)

Spoiler: Invite List

Earth
Fuwa
SH
Taiheita
ikep
Sigma
Masha
DIO
NGA
NAI

*Only Earth and ikep's sets are really pertinent here for now, until other players qualify. Both MVG Golden Week and Umebura T.A.T. are probably the best chance for Japan at large to qualify.

 

[Illusion.]

Techei, IceArrow, and Jodi Bleek have all stopped playing/are on hiatus from what I've heard, sadly.

 

[Deleted member]

Guess I'll do this and show all of Shulk's current players.

2S FAD | Nicko (SoCal, #12 on PR)
Kome (Japan)
Darkwolf (Montreal, #6 on PR)
TFY | FuerzaDON (Mexico)
SB | M (Sweden, #1 tied with SmashSK and Izaw)
Masha (Japan)
ATR ←/Tremendo Dude (South Florida)
Scarhi (France)
Aarrow (Houston, honorable mention on PR)
✮sғƵ✮ Tru4 (Germany)
Soronie (NorCal, #18 on PR - busy due to school)
Kurage (Japan)
GO! Bonren (Texas)
CrownAether (Georgia)
DMG GetShulked (British Columbia)
Melon (Ontario)
MWD | Masonomace (Missouri, honorable mention on Kansas PR)
Yaku (Mexico)

Inactive:
Jerm (Ontario)
Artryuu (Ontario)

Shulk has sizable players at low/mid level. Right now Kome and Nicko are more or less carrying him at high levels of play.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Guess I'll do this and show all of Shulk's current players.

2S FAD | Nicko (SoCal, #12 on PR)
Kome (Japan)
Darkwolf (Montreal, #6 on PR - somewhat inactive)
TFY | FuerzaDON (Mexico)
SB | M (Sweden, #1 tied with SmashSK and Izaw)
ATR ←/Tremendo Dude (South Florida)
Scarhi (France)
Aarrow (Houston, honorable mention on PR)
✮sғƵ✮ Tru4 (Germany)
Soronie (NorCal, #18 on PR - busy due to school)
Kurage (Japan)
GO! Bonren (Texas)
CrownAether (Georgia)
DMG GetShulked (British Columbia)
Melon (Ontario)
MWD | Masonomace (Missouri, honorable mention on Kentucky PR)

Inactive:
Jerm (Ontario)
Masha (Japan)
Artryuu (Ontario)

Shulk has sizable players at low/mid level. Right now Kome and Nicko are more or less carrying him at high levels of play.

3 things.
1. Mace is HM on Kansas PR
2. masha is competing at earths invitational this weekend
3. Darkwolf competed at LANets last week and got 9th

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I'm not sure if Darkwolf's Top 16 finish at GOML should count as well, though, considering that tournament took place nearly 10 months ago.

 

[Jaguar360]

I've personally never even heard of a successful greninja pocket or secondary. typically the succesful greninjas are the ones that pretty much solo main or main with a secondary. Speaking of, who are all the notable greninja's again? istudying, Darkaura, Venia, Stroder (strozai) are the ones that come off the top of my head.

The only successful Greninja secondaries I know of are Mexico's Serge (which has taken games off MKLeo, but he plays about 10 characters pretty regularly in tournament and still probably has a better Zard/Lucario/Cloud) and Japan's Rizeasu (whose Greninja I haven't actually seen in action, but he also plays a bunch of characters). Scizor's secondary Greninja doesn't do much for him. Australia's Waveguider used to secondary Greninja to supplement his Wii Fit but he ended up swapping their positions and has seemingly got better results since(?).

ZeRo's video was way off base with Greninja being a counterpick character. He requires too much time investment to be any less than a co-main for most people and doesn't really win matchups too hard usually since he has to work for a lot of stuff. Counterpick characters generally have polarizing factors that Greninja doesn't really have outside of movement and juggling.

 

[TDK]

What do you mean by OS?

OSFrog is a twitch Emote.

Anyways, here's all the notable Links I know of:

T (Japan)
Scizor (SoCal)
Cat (Netherlands)
SoVa Unknown (MD/VA)
IzAw (Sweden)
Espeon CH (BC)
Tsage (New England)
LordXav1er (New England)
Drigo Toes (Chile)

Overall not too many, but a lot of them have good wins or results.

 

[blackghost]

Of you are willing to spend the time necessary to learn greninja then you'd probably be better off picking up ryu,shiek, or bayo instead. These characters have no successful secondary users thever game is old enough that these patterns are strong enough to see why you shouldn't counterpick with these characters

 

[TDK]

Oh, and by the way, Darkshad , Falln , Dyr , and Pugwest are confirmed for Civil War, bringing the total number of confirmed PGR V2 members up to 31 out of 47.

Should I make a separate thread for this, to catalogue which PGR members are attending what tournament?

 

[Megamang]

I 2nd'd greninja when I mained Pika for the Mario MU. But now, Cloud/Marth do that job way better. For a bit I thought the SSHC would have a niche vs Bayo and other combos one struggles with, but SDI seems to do the job well enough and it really doesn't work for Greninja that well (fox physics) so he kinda has a tradeoff there instead of a net gain, and its honestly probably a net loss once the Bayo is good enough to bait it out and get ceiling uair punishes.

Is luigi a good pocket now that it is starting to look like he has a decent MU vs Bayo? In my mind that catapults his relevancy, Diddy/Mario was already a cool niche but add Bayo and he's lookin good.

---

MM v Ness.

PSI magnet does not invalidate crash bomber. If I stick you with a crash bomber, I want you to run away and PSI magnet. Ill take center stage for the 2%, or try and bair you or dashgrab if grounded. Pellets are annoying if you get a 3 pellet string, but Ness is a single pellet / heavy Nair/Bair/Fair MU.

I also have a style that I have been kinda keeping under wraps until I master it, that seems to give the PK boys in particular lots of trouble. Basically metal blade neutral with heavy leaf shield usage. PSI magnet doesn't do anything here, there is good mixup between throwing the metal blade (tons of shield pressure, it goes MB -> leaves hitting -> you're grabbed, if I time it right) or, if you shield, jumping right up to you and RAR-zdropping it on your shield, the multi hits of the blade plus leaves is solid pressure. The bat reflects both, but a FH zdrop pressures the bat pretty well. Being above ness isn't ideal though, so the bat does put on pressure. Spitballing here, I could probably SH throw the blade over the bat (avoids reflect, won't hit ness though) or just toss it the wrong way to trigger the reflect (LOVED this with lasers in melee) and punish. Still needs work. MB trades poorly with most projectiles but leaf shield eats.. I believe every single projectile. FCSB keeps going, but so does LS. It also hits twice at Mega speed, but only hits once at reflect speed, though the damage boost kinda neuters this effect somewhat.

The part I would say im most lacking in right now is timing. Leaf shield just disappears with no cooldown, so if my theory is right it should actually serve really well for traps and combos. I combo'd a leaf hit to a zdrop to a bair the other day =D


PK Thunder and PK Fire are really really really annoying in disadvantage though.

If you have a fast, intangible move (or sometimes just a move with great hitbox out ASAP) you can punish leaf shield hard. Just spam it between hits. For example, ZSS gets like 5utilt hits in, DB gets DB1x4 -> DB2,3,4 cause the sword clashes and starts the move over ;_;

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

There's five Lucas players that I know of at BEAST 7 in singles. They are Clade, Magnetgoat, WhYYZ, Berry, and FATBEN.
In doubles, WhYYZ, FATBEN, and Clade entered.

EDIT: As for Megaman vs Ness, keep in mind that he is able to magnet cancel heals with jumps, jump canceled up smash, or a back roll as long as he heals on the ground or right above it if he is falling onto the stage during a heal.

 

[Y2Kay]

This may sound kinda extreme, but you're gonna have to ride or die when it comes to Greninja. Cheeky CP stuff just aint gonna cut it with him.

all the OSfrogs that i know of

Some (Japan)
Oisiitofu (Japan)
Lea (Japan)
aMSa (Japan)
iStudying (Netherlands)
DarkAura (Canada)
Elexiao (France)
Waveguider (Australia)
Venia (Tristate)
Illusion (Texas)
P2P with Gibus (Texas)
Strozai (Southwest)
Techei (MD/VA)
IceArrow (New England)
Jodi Bleek (NorCal)

Shinjoebi (Minnesota), Akashic Sword (Florida), and Keekay (Dominican Republic)

 

[Jaguar360]

This may sound kinda extreme, but you're gonna have to ride or die when it comes to Greninja. Cheeky CP stuff just aint gonna cut it with him.



Shinjoebi (Minnesota), Akashic Sword (Florida), and Keekay (Dominican Republic)

who is the Strozai cat? never heard of him.

Strozai is Stroder's new name. And these other 3 are definitely important to add to your list Das Koopa

 

[Y2Kay]

Strozai is Stroder's new name. And these other 3 are definitely important to add to your list Das Koopa

why didn't my edit sneak past you??? >__>

 

[Aaron1997]

I'll do Pac...

Tea (Japan)
Ginko (Japan)
Sinji (Tri-state)
Zage (MD/VA)
Elexiao(France)
PEPEspain (Spain)
Q(NorCal)
Pow(Idaho)
Keldeo(Arkansas) (Yes this is me)
ForbiddenOne (Texas)
HippoKnight(Tri-State)

Inactive

Abadango (Japan)
Koolaid (New England)
BSP (Louisiana)

 

[TDK]

https://twitter.com/Ruben_dal/status/832403421126938624

This is interesting. I can't really think of any practical use for it, though.

 

[Yikarur]

That's known. You can do Ike's dash attack into Luigis fire ball for example and get both hits.

E: Oh it's even using Ike in the first clip. I just saw the second one

 

[Illusion.]

Aaron1997 ForbiddenOne is in Texas now, Austin to be more specific

 

[chaos11011]

Tsage (Tristate?)
LordXav1ier (Tristate)


Overall not too many, but a lot of them have good wins or results.

Both TSage and Lord X are New England, hailing from Massachusetts (#10 MA PR) and Rhode Island (#5 RI PR), respectively

Techei, IceArrow, and Jodi Bleek have all stopped playing/are on hiatus from what I've heard, sadly.

IceArrow has returned for about 1 or 2 months now. He has been going to one of MA's weeklies, Grand Slam Smash, consistently. He also was at GUMS 13, placing 13th.

 

[TDK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAEz1PqHABY

At around 10:07, the weird thing where Cloud's up-B hits and does no KB happens again. Rich took 14%, indicating that he should have taken the weak and the strong hit.

 

[PK Bash]

MM v Ness.

PSI magnet does not invalidate crash bomber. If I stick you with a crash bomber, I want you to run away and PSI magnet. Ill take center stage for the 2%, or try and bair you or dashgrab if grounded. Pellets are annoying if you get a 3 pellet string, but Ness is a single pellet / heavy Nair/Bair/Fair MU.

I also have a style that I have been kinda keeping under wraps until I master it, that seems to give the PK boys in particular lots of trouble. Basically metal blade neutral with heavy leaf shield usage. PSI magnet doesn't do anything here, there is good mixup between throwing the metal blade (tons of shield pressure, it goes MB -> leaves hitting -> you're grabbed, if I time it right) or, if you shield, jumping right up to you and RAR-zdropping it on your shield, the multi hits of the blade plus leaves is solid pressure. The bat reflects both, but a FH zdrop pressures the bat pretty well. Being above ness isn't ideal though, so the bat does put on pressure. Spitballing here, I could probably SH throw the blade over the bat (avoids reflect, won't hit ness though) or just toss it the wrong way to trigger the reflect (LOVED this with lasers in melee) and punish. Still needs work. MB trades poorly with most projectiles but leaf shield eats.. I believe every single projectile. FCSB keeps going, but so does LS. It also hits twice at Mega speed, but only hits once at reflect speed, though the damage boost kinda neuters this effect somewhat.

The part I would say im most lacking in right now is timing. Leaf shield just disappears with no cooldown, so if my theory is right it should actually serve really well for traps and combos. I combo'd a leaf hit to a zdrop to a bair the other day =D


PK Thunder and PK Fire are really really really annoying in disadvantage though.

If you have a fast, intangible move (or sometimes just a move with great hitbox out ASAP) you can punish leaf shield hard. Just spam it between hits. For example, ZSS gets like 5utilt hits in, DB gets DB1x4 -> DB2,3,4 cause the sword clashes and starts the move over ;_;

Can't say I'm hugely familiar with the mu but as far as I'm aware Ness shouldn't be reflecting Metal Blade. Really Ness is not using his reflector very often at all and certainly not in neutral. But yeah Ness should be aiming to catch the MB (if its low to the ground, a well spaced dash attack will work, and getting in this way as MB comes out is one of the more effective ways of getting in I've found) or just straight-up block it. I'm also pretty sure that PK Fire goes under it unless it's literally just as Ness shoots it from his hands. MB gives Ness more control in neutral vs Mega Man if he can get it. Otherwise MM's neutral is a pain. Not insurmountable but it can get frustrating. Psychological impact is a factor.
This does bring me to a point though. The Ness needs to know how to efficiently use the MB and generally, people's item play is subpar.

Like the idea of the shield pressure with RAR zdrop. If it works, it constrains Ness' oos game. Get back to me on that one if it works!

PSI Magnet vs Crash Bomber is interesting but from what I know (I stress again this is limited) it favours Mega Man. For a start, PSI Mag is a commitment. 18 frames startup and however many frames wasted absorbing the explosion. Even if you cancel the end, that's not good. Regardless of where or how you use it, using PSI Mag means you're not putting the pressure on Mega Man... which you kind of NEED to be doing when you can't really afford to keep resetting to neutral. Neutral is very mentally draining here I find, unless that's just my inexperience showing through. Regardless though, MM is strong in neutral and Ness is best in advantage. Seems pretty dumb to give that up and let him back to neutral for the sake of a few %.

Obviously I'm not exactly a notable Ness and I haven't grinded this mu out so don't just take what I say at face value. Like to think my thoughts are worth something though.
edit: Some footage from CEO 2016, FOW vs ScAtt https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS5_2ZrndZo
You can see FOW struggle with the pellets throughout. Note that FOW was able to create openings using the Metal Blades. Also note the general lack of PSI Mag and bat.

S1 is attending Beast 7 this weekend. Not going to list the notable Ness', you probably know them all, but his Ness is pretty exceptional and he is a very strong player (2nd on Netherlands PR I believe and gives Mr R a good run for his money). If you watch him, worth paying attention to his neutral. He really seems to love playing in neutral for some reason but I won't fault him for it - he certainly makes it work.

 

[TDK]

https://smashboards.com/threads/the-pgr-v2-attendance-tracker.445682/#post-21660411

 

[Baby_Sneak]

What is so hard about learning greninja?

 

[TDK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVX4cBjfPAM

 

[Ziodyne 21]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVX4cBjfPAM

I seriously doubt Cloud is going to drop anywhere in Solo Play. If anything Cloud's solo results have just been getting better and better recently. Same thing with his MU chart. Its even looking like Bayo beating Cloud is becoming a meme now. With Lots of Cloud's have been wrecking Bayo users in recent tournaments
Gimping Cloud is textbook easier said than done unless your using Sheik or a select few other characters. ZeRo takes about how Mario/Luigi/Fox and other characters have moves that can gimp Cloud but how much have we seen it in practice?

I mean its been well over a year since Cloud has been out and I do not see him getting gimped or exploited offstage much than when he first came out.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Can I ask for a list of relevant zard players? I know he's not common but if we're going on that....

 

[T4ylor]

Can I ask for a list of relevant zard players? I know he's not common but if we're going on that....

Going off the top of my head, something like Tosshi, Sharpy, Chuck Nasty, Draquaza, and Silent Doom

 

[Jaguar360]

Can I ask for a list of relevant zard players? I know he's not common but if we're going on that....

I'll do my best.
Serge (Mexico)
Tosshi/Hitomoshi (Japan)
Sharpy (Dominican Republic)
Chuck Nasty (Oklahoma)
Bloodcross (Florida/Massachusetts, somewhat inactive)
Drayquaza (Nevada)
LoF | Blue (New Jersey)
Silentdoom (United Kingdom)
Fire (France)
Chaoszard (New Hampshire)
Linus (Michigan)
ANTi (New York)

What is so hard about learning greninja?

In short, tricky/weird movement compared to other characters, easily rusted after a session or two without playing him, can be difficult to kill with unless you're on point, wonky up B input, etc. Pretty much that he doesn't leave much room for mistakes and needs to be kept fresh. Kinda similar to Sheik in that sense but slightly less forgiving.

 

[blackghost]

I seriously doubt Cloud is going to drop anywhere in Solo Play. If anything Cloud's solo results have just been getting better and better recently. Same thing with his MU chart. Its even looking like Bayo beating Cloud is becoming a meme now. With Lots of Cloud's have been wrecking Bayo users in recent tournaments
Gimping Cloud is textbook easier said than dome unless your using Sheik or a select few other characters. ZeRo takes about how Mario/Luigi/Fox and other characters have moves that can gimp Cloud but how much have we seen it in practice?

I mean its been well over a year since Cloud has been out and I do not see him getting gimped or exploited offstage much than when he first came out.

When you say clouds been beating bayou what bayo players are losing that much? There are a lot of bayou players most aren't threats outside of the regions meanwhile there's a lot of strong cloud mains. That must is still not in clouds favor. If it was a cloud main like koto would use cloud in a match against a high caliber bayo like zach

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I'll do my best.
Serge (Mexico)
Tosshi/Hitomoshi (Japan)
Sharpy (Dominican Republic)
Chuck Nasty (Central/South US)
Bloodcross (Massachusetts, somewhat inactive)
Drayquaza (Nevada)
LoF | Blue (New Jersey)
Silentdoom (United Kingdom)
Fire (France)
BryanYDG (MD/VA, inactive?)
ANTi (New York)


In short, tricky/weird movement compared to other characters, easily rusted after a session or two without playing him, can be difficult to kill with unless you're on point, wonky up B input, etc. Pretty much that he doesn't leave much room for mistakes and needs to be kept fresh. Kinda similar to Sheik in that sense but slightly less forgiving.

I'm stunned to see six solo zard mains and two of those main more then two characters wow.

 

[Illuminose]

When you say clouds been beating bayou what bayo players are losing that much? There are a lot of bayou players most aren't threats outside of the regions meanwhile there's a lot of strong cloud mains. That must is still not in clouds favor. If it was a cloud main like koto would use cloud in a match against a high caliber bayo like zach

he trusts sonic (his co-main) more in that matchup, which isn't unreasonable and also really doesn't say that much about the matchup; he's simply more comfortable

 

[Game7a1]

I'll do my best.

Bloodcross (Massachusetts, somewhat inactive)

Bloodcross was rarely active in MA during the late parts of 2016 and is probably somewhere else; however, New England does have Chaoszard (#10 on NH PR), but he's a bit inactive last I heard.

 

[Jaguar360]

Bloodcross was rarely active in MA during the late parts of 2016 and is probably somewhere else; however, New England does have Chaoszard (#10 on NH PR), but he's a bit inactive last I heard.

Oh yes that's true, he's in Florida now. I've been following his Twitter and he seems to be having depression issues holding him back from competing. He said he's going to Frostbite though and that 2017 will likely be his last year competing.

 

[TDK]

Tweek's Cloud Matchup Chart, spoilered for those of you who are chart-sensitive.

Spoiler

 

[KenMeister]

I'll do my best.
Serge (Mexico)
Tosshi/Hitomoshi (Japan)
Sharpy (Dominican Republic)
Chuck Nasty (Central/South US)
Bloodcross (Florida/Massachusetts, somewhat inactive)
Drayquaza (Nevada)
LoF | Blue (New Jersey)
Silentdoom (United Kingdom)
Fire (France)
Chaoszard (New Hampshire)
ANTi (New York)


In short, tricky/weird movement compared to other characters, easily rusted after a session or two without playing him, can be difficult to kill with unless you're on point, wonky up B input, etc. Pretty much that he doesn't leave much room for mistakes and needs to be kept fresh. Kinda similar to Sheik in that sense but slightly less forgiving.

Can confirm Bloodcross still plays somewhat. He's over in Niceville, Fl, next to Tally and Gainesville where he has decent competition over there. Before that he was living in Pensacola, which is more or less free.

 

[L9999]

Tweek's Cloud Matchup Chart, spoilered for those of you who are chart-sensitive.

Spoiler

View attachment 126265

While it is the typical character glorifying MU chart, Tweek isn't exactly wrong. has been going back and forth but slight disadvantage seems right on the mark. Didn'tate alive? I would bump to even given their track record and bump down , she obviously gets destroyed by Cloud. I would like everyone that calls Cloud "overrated trash" see his advantage spread. It is gigantic. A lot of those characters have Cloud as their worst MU ( ) and it is no surprise that every low tier is in there (except because he is very effective at gimping Cloud and getting him offstage). And for the camp of "nerf Cloud, heez chip!," I don't think it would solve much, as are almost everyone's 2nd worst or worst MU either way, but that's another whole story.