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Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

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jet56

Smash Journeyman
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Jun 7, 2015
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nah, Omega's are all basically the very exact stage. Final Destination is an omega itself. That's not comparable.

The mistake overall is too assume that "too many plattform stages" favor certain characters.
The problem with that thought is that there is only 1 possible layout of all layouts you could imagine that doesn't have plattforms.
So it's just natural that characters that excel only with plattforms being absent are at a disadvantage.
Melee has 3 BF layouts alone and again only FD has no plattforms, because there only one possible layout.

For that reason, throughout the whole history of Smash, Final Destination has been an extremely polarizing stage.
In your opinion, they aren't comparable. But i could, for example, think that omega duck hunt has too many differences from fd to warrant a separate stage (walls, 2D, grassy terrain). You can claim that they can't be comparable when someone else can turn around and claim the exact opposite. it's why i said they were subjective. And it's what the T.O.s where avoiding all along. the only way to be objective is to be fair to both sides and put it under one ban for both. Also, popular or majority opinion doesn't automatically make something the better opinion, or change the fact it's still an opinion. Even if a majority of the smash community wants and believes that DL/BF should be separate stages (myself included), it doesn't change the fact that it's still an opinion, and not everyone agrees with it.

FD is a polarizing stage in your opinion. but i could think it's a perfectly fine and nonpolarizing stage, and you would find other people that would agree with one idea or the other. The T.O.'s had to make the tough decisions of being as fair and objective as possible, without favoring the people who wanted more platform stages, and without favoring the people who wanted more flat stages.
 

Kung Fu Treachery

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Regarding Marth/Bayo and extended advantage states: If you have to keep fighting through Marth's neutral, obviously you'll have trouble, but isn't he not great at landing? He also can't throw out many moves in quick succession, so if he whiffs you can keep punishing, depending on your character, of course. I could be way off the mark, but I feel like people haven't fully figured out how to fight Marth since he's broken out onto the tournament scene. Obviously the framework is there from previous games, but I think Marth often gets away with things that he shouldn't, and the punish game on him will likely become more developed in the future.

Regarding Fox vs. Mewtwo and Rich Brown's troubles from a few pages ago: Abadango has done well against Fox generally (I believe he has a positive record against Larry), and I think it's because of his punishes. He's more aggressive than other Mewtwos, and that occasionally gets him in trouble, but it helps him in this particular matchup because you can really work Fox off of one opening. The wild combo Aba got on NAKAT's Fox at UGC is a good example of the sort of thing you need to do with the openings you get on Fox. It starts at about 8:15 in this video. Reflector means you have to be careful with Shadow Ball, but you can still get a lot of mileage from it, especially when edge guarding. Seems like a very volatile matchup, since both characters are light and armed to the teeth.

Somewhat related: when Mewtwo fires a full charge Shadow Ball, Fox Reflects it back and Mewtwo reflects it again with Confusion, sometimes it goes through Fox's Reflector and kills him, but sometimes he can reflect it again, at which point you have to dodge or die. Does anyone know why that happens?
 

Nah

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Somewhat related: when Mewtwo fires a full charge Shadow Ball, Fox Reflects it back and Mewtwo reflects it again with Confusion, sometimes it goes through Fox's Reflector and kills him, but sometimes he can reflect it again, at which point you have to dodge or die. Does anyone know why that happens?
iirc reflectors have a certain damage threshold: if the projectile's damage exceeds this number, it'll shatter and the character will get hit. Reflected projectiles also have increased strength, and they keep increasing the more times they're reflected. If the fully charged Shadow Ball is stale, the reflections might not be enough to bring the damage up to the level that'll break/ignore Fox's reflector. If fresher, the number might end up being enough to do it.

tl;dr: depends on how fresh/stale the reflected Shadow Ball is
 

Kung Fu Treachery

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iirc reflectors have a certain damage threshold: if the projectile's damage exceeds this number, it'll shatter and the character will get hit. Reflected projectiles also have increased strength, and they keep increasing the more times they're reflected. If the fully charged Shadow Ball is stale, the reflections might not be enough to bring the damage up to the level that'll break/ignore Fox's reflector. If fresher, the number might end up being enough to do it.

tl;dr: depends on how fresh/stale the reflected Shadow Ball is
Ah, I totally forgot about staling. I was confused because I know rage affects knockback, not damage, so I couldn't figure it out. Thanks.
 

Envoy of Chaos

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I can only imagine Ness having real mobility with his dash grab. On MUs, I dare to say :4corrinf:is a bigger bleach drink than :4sheik:and :rosalina: combined. :4sheik: is super fast up close, camps2win, and edgeguards are free, but at least :4ness: can hope to trade hits and kill her with rage. With :rosalina:, she has better range but she is still huge so you can trade hits and she has some moves that are not hard to whiff punish. Offstage Rosa is tricky but the reward is huge, PKT kills Luma and Down Smash kills her at mid %s. :4corrinf: has a gigantic sword with lots of active frames so trading is out the window, average weight means you can't feasably get rage kills on her, Side B goes completely unpunished and sometimes you have to take a hit of it to barely punish, and you can't 2 frame her recovery because the hitboxes are huge. Oh, Counter pressure denies PKT2 reads too, which you can get on Sheik and Rosa and kill them at 30%, although not often it is possible. :4megaman:is annoying because of pellet walking and Metal Blade camping, but I think it is a doable MU. Except on FD, it is bleach.
When I stating thinking about it I starting to think your right about the Corrin/Sheik thing. Sheik being so light makes getting kills on her not hard if you do manage to land a hit and getting the damage in isnt necessarily difficult given her fast faller status (Getting the intial hit is the issue). I think once you get Sheik off stage since its near impossible to gimp her just focusing on adding damage with PK Thunder and Fire instead to help add that damage on might make this MU more bearable. When I think of playing Corrin I really really struggle to find any openings ever and Side B is just straight impossible to play around. I have however completely stuffed Corrin's Up B with the head of PK Thunder before I really wish I saved it and figured out how I did it because it halted all her momentum and she just entered special fall and died, I think its a glitch or something. Now as far as Mega Man goes if the MM is just Pellet walking and jumping around that's free heals, you gotta be a little preemptive with it but if MM starts seeing you healing off it they will pellet alot less giving you openings, which is great because MM is heavy and can be combo'd hard especially with the Dthrow-Fair-Upair-Uptilt-Whatever string. Without having a hitbox on his Up B you get easy Dsmashes or off stage aerials. He can't use crash bomber at all in this MU either because again free heals. As long as you avoid FD its probably more close to even than anything imo.
Could I ask why Ness does well against Bayo and Fox?
Fox-
Ness can escape his uptilt strings quickly with a Nair
Fox cannot use his laser for adding clutch damage because Psi Magnet
Fox's gets combo'd hard and killed quickly because he's so light, backthrow is extra potent and any bad Side B back onto stage is going to be a backthrow at kill percentages
Whenever Fox is offstage PK Thunder totally messes up his Up and side B which then once he's forced to recover in a bad angle anything will intercept and kill Fox, PK Fire halts side B if hes far away from the ledge which traps him in place allowing Ness to swat him away
Ness' great airdodge also helps him escape his up air frame traps easier from which he can just drift away from any follow up

Bayonetta-
Witch Time isnt a big threat because Ness' main damage and kill methods are his grab. A whiffed Witch Time is really bad for Bayonetta against Ness since she's light Backthrow is a potent against her as it is Fox
Ness is one of the few characters that can apply off stage pressure on Bayonetta, Bayonetta actually has to be real careful coming back to stage against Ness. If she ABK's above the ledge Ness can easily PKT2 himself upwards and kill, if she bonks the ledge of the stage and bonuces above the lip Ness can throw a PK Fire and catch her while she's still offstage which is a free follow up. Multiple Witch Twists below the stage can cause her to get hit by PKT's head and force her to stage tech or get spiked
Ness is able to SDI out of her combos easier than most characters
Bayonetta has problems approaching Ness as PK Fire can be used to stuff on stage side B (Or a pivot grab)

I think both are even from my experiences.


EDIT: I wouldnt say NAKAT's Ness is bad he just doesnt use him alot anymore outside of Doubles. When he does use Ness its still very good.
 
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Illuminose

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671
i don't have a super high opinion of ness (i think he's around mid tier or so), but i think ness's qualities are being underrated here. the main cons of ness are struggles with range (mostly swords) meaning it can sometimes be hard to get in depending on the matchup, gimpable recovery, and flawed (though underrated) landing options. these are issues that make certain matchups pretty bad, but i think people tend to ignore the many good qualities that ness possesses.

one of the main things is that, although he can struggle with swords, once he's in range with his moves they almost always win trades. those same individual aerials do a ton of damage, over 10 each in addition to great shield safety on his aerials and good shield damage. furthermore, the threat of ness' aerials makes it easier for him to get grabs, for which he can get a good amount of percent at low percents with throw combos and reliable positional advantage/damage at mid to high percents (especially with his pummel. it's also not like his aerials have bad hitboxes or range, boasting disjoints to boot- it's just not great range compared to some of the crazier spacing aerials that certain top characters possess. from the ground, you can also do dash attack, which is unsafe but has a ton of disjoint that allows it to beat out many actions. though ness's ground moves might not have great range, they are still fast - frame 3 jab and down tilt - which makes them effective enough for the close-range scenarios where you need them.

there's other factors in ness neutral game that are worth noting. one is that his foxtrot is really fantastic, and in general that's there's a lot of little tricks you can do to mix up and enhance your pressure. for example, you can foxtrot around and then come in with an aerial or a dash attack, or you can grab. you can short hop and then do the faster landing with down air to enhance your aerial movement and trick opponents. furthermore, you can mix up the timing of your approach with psi magnet (this is something i saw tsujikou, an online japanese ness player, use effectively in a set against earth). you can also foxtrot and, instead of dashing back in, use pk fire, or take your short hop and turn into an autocanceled double jump pk fire. the primary struggle with ness is actually getting in, but once you're in range there's so much you can do to apply pressure and it's not nearly as linear as people say. ness has multiple effective options to pressure and ways to mix up his attack timing, and typically wins trades with his aerials with solid reward for connecting them. meanwhile, if you approach ness, he's one of the better characters at relieving pressure and even turning it around. a frame 5 nair to respond out of shield with, scary pivot grab/pk fire, and really good aerials at winning trades against moves people will typically want to approach you with make ness a legitimately scary character to approach and someone you must tread carefully against.

once ness gets positional advantage, there's also a lot he can do. he can juggle you with up air and pk thunder, which can even be difficult to deal with for characters with typically free disadvantage states. when ness gets you offstage, he can 2 frame many recoveries with down smash (one of the best characters at that) and get gimps or outright kill that way, as well as bombard recovery attempts with pk thunder which at least tends to set up a ledge position. ness can kill you for reading the right ledge options at high percents and has decent options to cover the ledge in any case, making him a scary character to fight against in that position.

in terms of kill options, ness has some of the most reliable ones in the cast. there's of course the back throw, which is easily the best kill throw in the game. up air is a strong kill option that is safe on shield if used properly and beats out pretty much any opposing aerial. back air is also a strong kill option that is safe on shield. there's also down smash at the ledge and some of the more gimmicky options that you can hit from time to time like pkt2 (sometimes you can get it to frame trap into the hit) and dtilt trip fsmash which kill at ridiculous percents. neutral air can also kill by the ledge. ness is a character that can reliably secure stocks at fairly early percents compared to some of the top tiers and has his own share of 'janky' kill options.

as for matchups, ness heavily struggles with cloud, sheik, and rosa. none of these matchups are unwinnable, but they are quite difficult to deal with consistently because of the options these characters possess, including the ability to gimp ness and juggle ness (less applicable for sheik), as well as strong defensive play. ness can also struggle with corrin and marth due to range and edgeguarding issues, villager due to some mildly oppressive edgeguarding (though neutral is actually quite decent in this matchup), and sonic because he has such strong defensive play and can also edgeguard ness really well with the spring and devastating fsmash punish for the common double jump on stage shenanigans that ness pulls. other matchups that are mildly bad are primarily pit (up smash bodies landings and arrows for ness's recovery are brutal), and perhaps mewtwo as well because of his solid defensive neutral. ness also has some good (well, even or maybe a couple very small disadvantage) matchups with top tiers that he can do serious work in, though. matchups that immediately come to mind are fox, zero suit, mario, and diddy kong. ness also has even or winning matchups against many high and mid tier characters.

in conclusion: ness, although he has notable flaws, still has fantastic reward, consistent kill options, and underrated options in neutral overall. i think the character is a mid tier because of his bad matchups, but he can certainly put in work in many other matchups aside from those, including against some top tiers.
 

Seagull Joe

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It might be Sonic simply having a bad matchup against Falco (at least with MU inexperience). If I'm not mistaken, several other Sonic's like Seagull Joe have lost to Falco players in the past, so it may just be that.

Also, no reason to insult the way 6WX plays just because its not the most optimal, camping is mentally draining playstyle for both players involved the longer it goes on and that sort of playstyle may not be what 6WX enjoys as a Sonic player despite enjoying playing the character.
I lost to Keitaro's :4falco: once game 3 last hit with 0 exp in the matchup. Get outta here.

:018:
 

Envoy of Chaos

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FOW and Shaky are back, how active they will be is still a question, Shaky dropped out of Midwest Mayhem Saga and FOW is going to Civil War but they are all top players so whats unfair about comparing them?
 

Nobie

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A few topics!

The difference between Omega/FD and DL/BF:


Omega stages and FD literally have the same dimensions, aside from the different ledges. All the blast zones are the same. The size of the single giant platform is the same. Any strategy and knowledge that works on FD will work on any other Omega, aside from edgeguard situations where walls or non-pineapple surfaces can make the difference.

The ONLY thing that Dreamland and BF have in common is that they have three platforms above the stage. Even putting aside the presence of Wispy and the pineapple bottom, there's no way that a BF strategy can ever be transplanted 1:1 onto Dream Land. The size of the main platform is different. The sizes of the triple platforms are different. The distance from one platform to the next is different. The blast zones are different. On a simple level, the difference in platform placements means that double jump usage will inevitably be different as well, which opens up variations in strategy.

I kind of talked about this flippantly a week ago, but I get the feeling that the staunchest supporters of the DL/BF rule are those who use characters that have a hard time on both stages (so they view it as effectively no difference), or they fight characters that regard both stages with little difference. Characters in the former category might be slow targets in the air who can't use the extra few frames' difference in landing to actually escape. Characters in the latter might be those just fast enough (and fast-fally enough) to navigate the platforms as if they're nearly the same. Something tells me Fox is a major culprit.

I haven't been playing much as of late, so I might be a bit of a hypocrite in saying this, but I also wonder if people don't actually lab out stages enough. Lylat is the obvious example, but in the context of DL vs. BF, I think people might have a lot of experience PLAYING on those stages but not necessarily testing them out and discovering their differences.

Why do MKLeo and ZeRo fear Ryu?

A while back in a video on ZeRo's channel, both MKLeo and ZeRo mentioned that they believe Ryu is a top tier character. We've had a lot of discussion as to why Ryu isn't all he's cracked up to be, but I wonder why these two super ultra world-class players view Ryu with such unease. Maybe it has to do with their own play styles. Perhaps Ryu's strengths exploit the flaws in how they approach Smash 4, or maybe he turns what would normally be viewed as a safe situation into an unsafe one. Emblem Lord Emblem Lord mentioned all of the over-extensions Leo made, and I wonder if, in Leo's eyes, those moments wouldn't have been over-extensions against any other character. It might just be that Ryu's volatility is frightening to two players who rely so much on solid consistency.

Yoshi Viability

A fun thought exercise to put in place is to change just one variable on a character and imagine how good they would be. For example, if Cloud had Mario's Up B, would he be the best character in the game? The answer is "quite likely but maybe not." So, if we got rid of one of Yoshi's weaknesses, such as his tether grab, and replaced it with a standard fast 6-frame one (albeit with shortened range), would it transform Yoshi into a top tier?
 

Yikarur

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DL/BF integration is a mess and barely anyone who knows basic game design agrees on the decision.

If we need to integrate them, we should just ban Dreamland tbh. This way DL64 -> T&C abusers don't get an advantage.
 

Emblem Lord

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Well yeah Nobie Nobie you nailed it.

Ryu ****s on this game's flow.

You know what happens when you overextend in Marvel vs Capcom 2?

You eat an infinite and die.

There is not a thing you can do. So you either get godlike or you accept that you are garbage.

This game there is ALOT of hand holding and unless you make HUGE colossal errors, most characters cant decimate you for mistakes besides ZSS and MK.

So here comes Ryu and you fight him and you over-extend because EVERYONE overextends in this game and he wrecks you for it. And now this char is in your head because he goes against everything the game has taught. The game taught you that you will NOT die at percents below 100 even if you make a mistake. (unless it was offstage)

Ryu breaks the rule.

It's not even his fault. Smash 4 just does a really terrible ****ing job of teaching you proper fighting game habits.
 

Emblem Lord

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Except Lucario has a whole host of SERIOUS issues that hold him back. Aura is quite literally all that is keeping him in the game. Besides that he may as well not exist.

Nice try tho.
 

DanGR

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DL/BF integration is a mess and barely anyone who knows basic game design agrees on the decision.

If we need to integrate them, we should just ban Dreamland tbh. This way DL64 -> T&C abusers don't get an advantage.
Let's ban DL64 so that characters that don't like those stages get an advantage.

...

I can't believe this rule is actually a thing. The characters that benefit from a stage separation aren't even troublesome so... why?
 

Rizen

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Food for thought, has the addition of Omega variations of stages hurt the competitive stage list? What I mean is Sakurai added Omegas to the game then could use that as an excuse to make stages with crazy layouts and janky hazards. While it's cool to have different aesthetic versions of FD, they add close to nothing to competitive stage choices.
What he should have done is included a hazard on/off function. We could be playing on PS2, Kanto pkmn league, Midgar (as an alternate BF), etc which have fine layouts but annoying hazards.
 
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Nathan Richardson

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Even without the threat of getting gimped early offstage, a lot of grab confirms and KO setups are free on Cloud when he makes mistakes like mis-spacing attacks on shield or landing unsafely.
Boy ain't that the truth. With most characters you can shield then punish with characters like Cloud it depends on what he's using. There have been several times that i've shielded an attack from Cloud then got hit with a follow up strike when I tried to either grab or punish the attack.

Edit: On a side note i've seen the term 'overextend' thrown around a few times. I actually am clueless as to what that means. My guess is that it means throwing out your moves in such a way that gets you easily read and punished (zard's forward A in pokken tournament on a shielding opponent for example) but that's an overly general definition. What does it mean exactly? Sorry but I just don't use the terms the competitive fighting game community throws out (mainly because any other game besides smash FG i'm a complete NOOB at) can someone enlighten me here?
 
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BSP

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@Thinkaman

It's almost been a year since this post:



What do you think of it in hindsight? I think I overreacted with the 100-0 comment but the rest I was pretty much spot on.
You said all of that when Bayo was in vanilla version right? You were essentially right if that's the case lol, and "she" did end up getting removed via nerfs.

Well yeah Nobie Nobie you nailed it.

Ryu ****s on this game's flow.
Ryu gives you a health bar in a game with % >_>
 
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The-Technique

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There have been several times that i've shielded an attack from Cloud then got hit with a follow up strike when I tried to either grab or punish the attack.
if that's happening then the cloud is spacing his attacks properly. if you're in a position where he's just whaling on your shield then you've made a mistake somewhere down the line
 

Kung Fu Treachery

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I think what Emblem Lord Emblem Lord is getting at is that Ryu's tilt->TSRK combos put people on edge in a way that random smash attacks don't because of their speed. A small, relatively non-committal move by Ryu leads straight to death, and it's harder to punish those tilts than whiffed grabs or F-Smashes or what have you. Ryu is appropriately balanced for his kill power, and there are obviously things you can do to avoid his setups, but as Nobie Nobie said, safe options against any other character (save perhaps Bayonetta) can get you killed at startlingly low percents when fighting Ryu. It's kinda his thing as a character. You can rarely, if ever, do anything thoughtlessly against him, since he doesn't give you the chance to escape from the kill combo, even if your character normally can slip out of threatening combos with jumps or aerials or moves like Bouncing Fish or Flip Jump. Cloud's Limit Cross Slash is similar, but he only gets one shot before he has to recharge (and even then it might not kill you at center stage like TSRK). Ryu doesn't need to recharge his U-Tilt. Does any other character have a non-throw-based true combo that kills even close to that early, and with such a quick and low commitment opening move? I can't think of one, though Bowser comes as close as anyone can with the range of his pivot grab.

The omnipresent threat of the elbow hangs over you once you hit 65% or so. Even Witch Time can stale out if they whiff it. Bayo and Ryu are similar in how they accelerate the game toward that heart-pounding last hit situation much earlier than other characters. Worse yet, you might be at death percents when they're not even close.
 

Nathan Richardson

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if that's happening then the cloud is spacing his attacks properly. if you're in a position where he's just whaling on your shield then you've made a mistake somewhere down the line
I don't think i've ever been in a position where I've had my shield whaled on for free. I do have a tendency to dodge roll way too often, often times I roll on reflex since it's easier to just get out of the way then time a spot dodge.
 

Luigi player

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Well yeah Nobie Nobie you nailed it.

Ryu ****s on this game's flow.

You know what happens when you overextend in Marvel vs Capcom 2?

You eat an infinite and die.

There is not a thing you can do. So you either get godlike or you accept that you are garbage.
That sounds a bit like ICs in Brawl? But they had the limitation of it only working grounded, had minimal range and it was dependent on Nana being there. The grab also wasn't invincible from frame 1.

So here comes Ryu and you fight him and you over-extend because EVERYONE overextends in this game and he wrecks you for it. And now this char is in your head because he goes against everything the game has taught. The game taught you that you will NOT die at percents below 100 even if you make a mistake. (unless it was offstage)

Ryu breaks the rule.

It's not even his fault. Smash 4 just does a really terrible ****ing job of teaching you proper fighting game habits.
Well, it's definitely true that he breaks the rule. Trying to hit him at all will get you killed because Focus Attack and nair-stagedrag combos into spike are broken.

Think you're safe while doing retreating sh bairs on Ryu while he's hanging at the ledge and has to come back onstage? Nope, he can just FA through the bair and Shoryuken KO you (HOW is that possible!?).

Trying to juggle him with non-multihit moves often gets YOU at the disadvantage instead of him if he FAs through. And if you're grounded you could die.

You could think grabs would be the most safe, but no... if you trade you could die.
Also, he can just cancel the focus and even attack to stay absolutely safe.

And don't get me started on his frame 3 utilt that combos into his killmove... Though another BS thing he has is KOing you at like 30 with nairs that drag you around the stage into a spike. Guess you need to stay in the middle of the stage at all times against him if you're around 20-30 %.

The game taught you that you will NOT die at percents below 100 even if you make a mistake. (unless it was offstage)
That's a little underexaggerated... more like you die at 60 while he's at 150. He's almost like Lucario in that sense. Except his stuff is way more scary unless you're 2-3 characters apart from him and have means to get around him.
One single frame 3 move could be the end. Any time you'd approach him he could use a frame 1 invincible killmove that KOs you at 60 if you have a big "lead".

Ryu died down a bit since a while now and that's understandable looking at most of his results. He doesn't have too much and didn't until Locus and Darkshad made some racket. He also seems to have some MUs where he just has trouble doing things. But not every character has means to deal with Ryu. He's super good and makes you feel like you can't do anything sometimes, the 3 years hitlag on everything makes it feel even worse. His moves even seem pretty disjointed. So trading isn't easy and can be risky.

I can definitely understand that the "Ryu hype" died down because of his results, but from my own experience he feels like he could theoretically be around 5th on the tierlist. Just because of Shoruyken, which could come out anytime and kill you at 60 when he's at 150. Of course this is only in theory and in reality you can't really do that and it can get punished as well if baited, but the fact that it could happen scares and makes you having to respect his space super hard in the sense that you can't even go near him ever, even at an advantaged state. If you're ever in utilts or in its range SDI for your life. Marths upB was super annoying in Brawl. You could like never attack him and everything was risky since it came down to things like 50:50s while you're at the advantage. But Ryus upB even KOs you super early instead of at like 130.

I've found myself just running away from him, trying to spam him and trying to juggle him with multihit moves (not every character has the luxury of a good aerial multihit though, or a multihit utilt/usmash) just to somewhat get around his oppressing button presses. You have to super respect any move Ryu goes for (utilts, fair/bair) and I've found that rolling can work well, but it's just way too risky to really go for that.
 

Rizen

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Ryu's top 15 imo.

I think a Brawl mindset people need to get over is that strong punish characters can't match up to the safe top tiers. Consistency is better than having to go with reads but SSB4 isn't polarized like Brawl. In Brawl MK's Ftilt alone>the bottom 3rd of the cast. Top tiers are not nearly as untouchable in SSB4. If a character like Bowser or Ryu has trouble approaching but has massive reward they can compete because now they're close enough to the top tiers to maybe lose most of the match but not get completely shut down. When these bad boys do hit back they hit hard enough to make up the deficit. There isn't enough of a gap anymore for a top tier consistency queen like Sheik to destroy a well built heavy hitter, although she still wins.
 

Sinister Slush

❄ I miss my kind ❄
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SinisterSlush
It's almost been a year since this post:



What do you think of it in hindsight? I think I overreacted with the 100-0 comment but the rest I was pretty much spot on.
For around that time all of them are true, even with the patch directly nerfing her only the two things that's maybe not true today is no weaknesses cause anyone with grabs into guaranteed aerial or throws that closes out stocks can be rough for bayo cause oh jeez, I can't witch time grabs.
Killing the game won't happen yet thankfully, but who knows what the future holds.

When I see bayo or cloud losing, I don't really see it as them getting outplayed. I see it more as the player playing them just using bayo/cloud suboptimally and that in pretty much every situation those 2 should be winning almost all the time.
It's kind of why a good portion of Bayo players for example whenever they make a MU chart they either have 0 losing MUs or based on a player in their scene or something they'd put Diddy as one main example as even/0 or -1/slight disadvantage (or you can be japan and do -0.5 sonic, everyone over there is mentally scarred by KEN)
 

|RK|

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Boy ain't that the truth. With most characters you can shield then punish with characters like Cloud it depends on what he's using. There have been several times that i've shielded an attack from Cloud then got hit with a follow up strike when I tried to either grab or punish the attack.

Edit: On a side note i've seen the term 'overextend' thrown around a few times. I actually am clueless as to what that means. My guess is that it means throwing out your moves in such a way that gets you easily read and punished (zard's forward A in pokken tournament on a shielding opponent for example) but that's an overly general definition. What does it mean exactly? Sorry but I just don't use the terms the competitive fighting game community throws out (mainly because any other game besides smash FG i'm a complete NOOB at) can someone enlighten me here?
It's basically pushing too far such that you put yourself in an undesirable position. When you're playing footsies, you're usually threatening your opponent's space by positioning or safe pokes, yes? Overextending is going too far with that. Most Smash attacks (without safe confirms or quick recoveries), running too close to the opponent, etc. It basically depends on what options are and are not risky for your character vs your opponent's character.

Practical example - rapid jab is an overextension in a Kirby ditto, because Kirby can SDI out and punish with stone.
 

OverTime

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So I picked up SFV the other day because I wanted a Traditional Fighting Game to learn from.

I've found decent success in (okay, not decent but more) purely watching the opponent and not my character. Does anybody else do this?

I'll tottally ignore my character on the screen, besides spacing my moves. Mentality behind this is that I know what my character is doing because I'm controlling her (Cammy).
 
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