Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Megamang]

Wo, a matchup chart that doesn't assume they +1 or +2 Megaman by default!

Of all the characters that do that though, i'd bet Marth is likely to actually win. I think it is even because of the general characteristics of swordfighters and their frame data, but his edgeguarding vs Megaman might push it over. Then again, Mega actually can give him some real problems offstage, and this starts at an earlier percent.


What I mean by that last statement is, with how much height Megaman gains with Rush and the fact he can save his double jump while Rushing, he can simply use Rush 2 or 3 times as he gets hit to eventually go too high to be edgeguarded. He still has to land though.

DK? Both with decent ground pokes maybe? It seems like DB4 upwards would *always* start something painful on DK, as would SHAD Uair. Dingo Dongo does kill Marf early, but intelligent Jabs/Nairs/SHAD/DB/ and, when the only other option is get grabbed, panic Dolphin Slashes, would make life hard for DK.

Charizard even, MK even... so even if False's chart isn't perfect, at least he didn't do the 'better char so I win +2" **** we see all the time.


---

When I asked for shiek nerfs, I didn't mean from the executive branch, I meant in game!

 

[Yikarur]

Das Koopa SirJon was also playing Diddy at Smash Valley! (just realized it's missing) but only for very few sets.

 

[|RK|]

Just a quick reminder of the power of pre-patch Bayonetta. Found it on Reddit - says this set led to the calls for her being banned.

Crazy people were justifying her power... and she's still good!

EDIT: Also, the "is this real life" caught me off guard lmao

EDIT 2: Also the "buen back air" - some things are so pure they transcend regional boundaries, I suppose.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Charizard even,

...

I'd actually argue its even or very slightly in Marth's favor...

There are many matchups that Charizard struggles with.

In my experience Marcina is not one of them.

 

[Megamang]

Yea, it makes sense.

But... and I know this simplification is usually terrible... but Marth is just better enough that he should probably win. If you know Charizard's moves, his wall isn't so scary. Does he have a poke that would keep out SHAD-uair? Because that starts a hell of a lot of pain for heavyweights.

And shield => db is gonna punish anything that isn't spaced well. And the sword can counterpoke zard for poking at Marth.


I'm a zard optimist usually, but I'm more of a Marth optimist. What does Zard's neutral look like in the MU? How can he escape disadvantage? He has the typical heavy issue; he can escape to the ledge with clever special use, but being on the ledge suuuuucks vs Marth.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Zard vs Marth starts off even, but the longer that the matchup goes on the more it becomes in Marth's favor. Unless Zard can get a hard read or edgeguard at ~90, its a battle of attrition, and nobody wins that against Marth.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Marth destroys Zard in neutral. Nullifies Zards range. Can hit Zard without Zard being able to hit him by aiming for the extended hurtboxes on Zards attack. Zard is also easy to tipper, Marth doesn't have to push for kills at all despite Zards weight. Zard loses pretty hard. But Zard hits hard enough and has enough of an Edgeguard for him to be able to win vs cocky playing Marth. Patient Marth wrecks him.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I know you all are probably sick of these, but False made a new MU chart for Marth recently (By which I mean 4 days ago):

Spoiler

View attachment 125589

My thoughts on this chart:
+2: Absolutely yes, these characters really don't like Marth. Doc especially does not like Marth.

+1: I'd move Falcon and Samus to even. Falcon is excellent at whiff punishing, and he doesn't actually struggle in neutral against Marth because of this. He just has issues getting edge guarded and juggled but makes up for it with his punishes and his own juggles. Samus can be hard to track down, she's pretty heavy, yet floaty and she's got good ways to get down from juggles and make it back to the ledge. You have to be able to hit Samus, which is where things can get tricky.
And yes, Marth beats Lucina. And yes, it is because of tipper.

Even: Meta Knight is not in Marth's favor, neither is Bowser, and they're not bad but for the sake of not changing the system of the chart I'd move them down to -1, otherwise it'd be -.5. I personally think Fox is there too.
Mario I think is +1. Watching Ally vs Leo should be enough to show that.
I think Ryu is +1 for Marth as well, he get's walled out and edge guarded really hard. Emblem Lord express Ryu's issues there much better than I can though.
I think the Pit's can have some troubles with Marth, mostly just due to how their aerials work vs Marth's aerials making it tricky for them to try and break through without trading so again it'd be like a +.5 to me.

-1: Sheik is even. Mr. R is unfortunately practically free for Leo at this point, but VoiD has had some very good sets. While I believe VoiD is up in sets, when we look at the individual games we see a different story. Need to see VoiD vs Leo more often.
Diddy is +1 Marth. Leo thinks so, ZeRo thinks so, results show it with Leo bodying ZeRo and Mr. E always does well vs ZeRo, even if he doesn't win, they typically go to game 5.

Other than what I mentioned as otherwise, I think this is pretty solid when you look at all the other characters. There's much more that False got right than he got wrong. It'll be interesting to see how much this might change with the new stagelist (RIP Doc)

 

[verbatim]

There is such a thing as individual player skill, especially at specific matchups.

Ranai is undefeated against Ally and 1-1 with Dabuz. That doesn't mean Villager is +1 on Mario and 50/50 with Rosalina.


I think that from what has been demonstrated in competitive play that it is reasonable to say that Sheik beats Marth.

You could also reasonably argue that it's even.

 

[Flux0r]

So, the PGRv2 has come out with a tier list. 30 panelists voted on this.

Here is the data: https://tinyurl.com/jjqm9m2

Here is the tweet: https://twitter.com/ThePGstats/status/827559418430627844

Anyone who disagrees or agrees?

 

[Man Li Gi]

Aye kiddies. Something interesting is happening in Chicago. There's a schism in ruleset. UR|Blind (one of the 10 people who put together the "recommended" ruleset) and E2C|Joe Barrels aren't running the same ruleset. Any tourney Joe runs will be the classic ruleset. This Saturday at Midwest Mayhem 7, will run the classic ruleset. What's funny though is that the winner of MM7 goes to 2GGC: Midwest Saga where they will run the new ruleset ad infinitum.

Kind of crazy how 10 people can completely cause confusion. What I find funny is when people disagree, but then say, "I trust their opinion though, so I won't resist". Met too many people like that.

 

[Deleted member]

So, the PGRv2 has come out with a tier list. 30 panelists voted on this.

Here is the data: https://tinyurl.com/jjqm9m2

Here is the tweet: https://twitter.com/ThePGstats/status/827559418430627844

Anyone who disagrees or agrees?

Decent, imo.

Still don't think Shulk is worse than but that's for another post I guess.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Dang PGR trying to get a tier list out there before 4br finishes theirs.

 

[Rizen]

So, the PGRv2 has come out with a tier list. 30 panelists voted on this.

Here is the data: https://tinyurl.com/jjqm9m2

Here is the tweet: https://twitter.com/ThePGstats/status/827559418430627844

Anyone who disagrees or agrees?

I could nitpick (Bowser on the same tier as Link and below Yoshi? Nooo...) but it overall doesn't look bad.

 

[Das Koopa]

They should've adjusted the list to excise outliers like somebody scoring Diddy Kong a 3/10.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ryu too high.

Yeah that's right

 

[Man Li Gi]

One day I will write a dissertation based on how DK and Bowser suck major cheeks (are low tier but people give opportunities to shine due to fear or something else) and have a tangential argument that goes into talking about how smash in general sucks too.

I just need to find 9 more people to back me and to completely ignore opposition (ಠ‿ಠ)

 

[blackghost]

So, the PGRv2 has come out with a tier list. 30 panelists voted on this.

Here is the data: https://tinyurl.com/jjqm9m2

Here is the tweet: https://twitter.com/ThePGstats/status/827559418430627844

Anyone who disagrees or agrees?

i looked up how this was made and it really was impacted by panelists with very outlier thoughts and a few examples where the entire cast wasn't even rated or one occasion where someone gave all characters 1-6 or another time when someone gave the entire cast a 1 and ganon got a 2.
take it for what its worth i guess but there's sone issues here for sure. im looking at peach and ryu. and maybe duck hunt.

 

[Illusion.]

Ryu too high.

Yeah that's right

Nah.

You gotta stop with underrating your character.

 

[Sinister Slush]

The fact it's mostly commentators voting probably helps too.
Not sure how Cloud can have almost 10s across the board and be put as 7th on their thing.

 

[Illusion.]

The fact it's mostly commentators voting probably helps too.
Not sure how Cloud can have almost 10s across the board and be put as 7th on their thing.

Where's the list of panelists?

 

[MistressRemilia]

Nah.

You gotta stop with underrating your character.

I'm afraid that he's right, though.
If you exclude the whole advantage overextension *********** that seems to be happening to way too many players, the character really doesn't deserve that much credit. Not much right to sit above Megaman with such a poor matchup spread as a whole, and a neutral that leaves something to be desired against a fair amount of the cast.
Advantage State does not make a character good, but in practice, it does push them further a little bit, only due to a majority struggling to play adequatly against such a character. Exceptions are few & far between, so much so that characters like Ryu, or a bit lower but still symptomatic of such things like Luigi or Falcon can sneak up to the higher spots of a major tournament.
However, from an objective standpoint, the more consistently capable characters of the cast rightfully deserve to be above them.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Personally still think Diddy is number one
Don't see how Corrin is 14th at all
Peach is a little high
Ness is almost right
Bowser anc ROB are way too low
Wario feels too high but results might say otherwise
Palutena is too high
Duck Hunt is a bit low
Doc is a bit low
Personally don't think Puff is the worst.

It's not a bad list but it's a bit flawed imo

 

[Emblem Lord]

Nah.

You gotta stop with underrating your character.

....

GRENINJA TOO LOW FAM!!!!

 

[Sinister Slush]

Where's the list of panelists?

There's no list but outside of a reddit thread saying a couple commentators and Bear (TO) it's most likely just commentators and TOs that voted on this that're apart of PG with the Top player factor being ESAM MVD Rich brown. Still 20+ other slots to fill out, despite 30 panelists and 5 people didn't vote so realistically 25 slots of panelists to fill out.

 

[Game7a1]

It should be noted that the voting was done right ZeRo Saga, so anything that transpired this year had no influence on the voting.
However, that doesn't explain Bowser's low placement.

 

[verbatim]

The ranking system was done pretty poorly imo. Am interested in seeing the backroom tierlist whenever that comes out.

Someone on reddit commented that Bayonetta ranked above Diddy Kong on average because one user gave Diddy Kong a 3. Had that person given Diddy a 6 or higher Diddy would have been number one in ranking.

Someone gave Ganondorf a 10/10, probably why he wasn't bottom 3 this time.

Someone gave about half of the characters, including Bowser, pits, and META KNIGHT a 1/10.

 

[Illusion.]

I'm afraid that he's right, though.
If you exclude the whole advantage overextension *********** that seems to be happening to way too many players, the character really doesn't deserve that much credit. Not much right to sit above Megaman with such a poor matchup spread as a whole, and a neutral that leaves something to be desired against a fair amount of the cast.
Advantage State does not make a character good, but in practice, it does push them further a little bit, only due to a majority struggling to play adequatly against such a character. Exceptions are few & far between, so much so that characters like Ryu, or a bit lower but still symptomatic of such things like Luigi or Falcon can sneak up to the higher spots of a major tournament.
However, from an objective standpoint, the more consistently capable characters of the cast rightfully deserve to be above them.

Uh he's been in the top 18 of Das Koopa's list for several months now. Even with Trela out of the picture, he's been getting results at majors from the likes of Darkshad and Locus; getting 9th at majors a few times with the best represenative being absent is honestly pretty good. Mega Man and Villager I think should be above him, but he's roughly in the right place.

I also don't know where you're getting this idea of him having a "poor MU spread." He does struggle with some of the top tiers (also beating and going even with others), but that's exactly why he's high rather than top. There are also high tiers that give him trouble (Mega Man and Villager come to mind), but then what?

....

GRENINJA TOO LOW FAM!!!!

He doesn't have the results to be any higher. I genuinely believe that is the perfect spot.

 

[Gunla]

Aye kiddies. Something interesting is happening in Chicago. There's a schism in ruleset. UR|Blind (one of the 10 people who put together the "recommended" ruleset) and E2C|Joe Barrels aren't running the same ruleset. Any tourney Joe runs will be the classic ruleset. This Saturday at Midwest Mayhem 7, will run the classic ruleset. What's funny though is that the winner of MM7 goes to 2GGC: Midwest Saga where they will run the new ruleset ad infinitum.

Kind of crazy how 10 people can completely cause confusion. What I find funny is when people disagree, but then say, "I trust their opinion though, so I won't resist". Met too many people like that.

Midwest Mayhem Saga is running the old ruleset, bar Miis being free (so basically the 7-stage stagelist). The ruleset schism is too real though, not going to lie.

As for the PG Tierlist, there's definitely some... odd discrepancies about it, enough to not make me really consider it a serious list and more just something on the side. The lack of knowing who the panelists are (something I do think really should be public if they're going to just release every vote), the slight errors in methodologies and not accounting for different scaling (one panelist didn't rank anyone below 6, for instance). Outliers affected this tier list as seen with Diddy, kinda similar to what happened with NAKAT on the player rankings.

The ranking system was done pretty poorly imo. Am interested in seeing the backroom tierlist whenever that comes out.

Late February, probably around the week of Frostbite is what we're targeting. It will focus on the period of Super Smash Con 2016 to G4.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Uh he's been in the top 18 of Das Koopa's list for several months now. Even with Trela out of the picture, he's been getting results at majors from the likes of Darkshad and Locus; getting 9th at majors a few times with the best represenative being absent is honestly pretty good. Mega Man and Villager I think should be above him, but he's roughly in the right place.

I also don't know where you're getting this idea of him having a "poor MU spread." He does struggle with some of the top tiers (also beating and going even with others), but that's exactly why he's high rather than top. There are also high tiers that give him trouble (Mega Man and Villager come to mind), but then what?

He doesn't have the results to be any higher. I genuinely believe that is the perfect spot.

I could easily argue Greninja as a stronger character than Ryu

 

[Frihetsanka]

I could easily argue Greninja as a stronger character than Ryu

I'm curious, what do you think Ryu's MU chart looks like? The ones I've looked at makes him seem near top-tier. If you don't feel like making a full MU chart, then just tell me which MUs he loses.

 

[Rizen]

I could easily argue Greninja as a stronger character than Ryu

I'd like to hear why.


This set with Larry Lurr's vs CaptainZach's , especially game 3, is a good example of why Bayo's landings aren't that big a weakness. It's not so simple as run up and hit her as she lands.
https://youtu.be/xAo2YJseiU8?list=PLsoSl1w33CKR6a163kfnmCOVi9jQ64b1Y&t=266

 

[Emblem Lord]

Greninja has an ACTUAL neutral. That is it really. And he can disengage thanks to having a solid projectile.

 

[Illusion.]

I have a whole book that goes into a little detail as to why he can't be higher than where he currently is.

He doesn't place well at majors, he's mostly just a regional threat right now.

 

[Nah]

iirc Koops mentioned that the vast majority of Ryu's points on his ranking system come from regionals. He does well there but seems to falter at the levels above that. A few people occasionally put in some really good work but that's something a lot of characters do and isn't really a reason to place him near stuff like Marth or Mewtwo. 18th is also lower than his placement on the above list (12th) lol.

I'm not sure why characters who have little control over neutral and lose to keepaway () are even in the 2nd highest tier, but they seem to have been overrated for a while now.

 

[Megamang]

I like that spot for Megaman. I can see him continuing to improve, but as of right now thats a good spot.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Anyone who disagrees or agrees?

Top 11 needs some shuffling around, but at least the characters are correct. Corrin is a few steps too high and should move down a bit. Lucina is, for once, not underrated. Bowser is a bit underrated though, and so is Link. I could nitpick a bit but overall it's not a bad tier list.

 

[mountain_tiger]

It's kind of hard to hold much stock in a list which was based on asking people to rate close to five dozen characters on a scale of one to ten... I can't help but feel that the whole thing must have a LOT of rounding errors (i.e. where characters were rated, say, '8' by the same person, but nevertheless doesn't consider that said person might think one is still a little better than the other...)

Still though, shout-out to panelist 1 for rating everyone in the cast as being no worse than 6, whilst panelist 2 seemed to regard 6 as 'just outside of the top 10'. Even with absolutely no other knowledge about either of them, this alone provides an interesting insight into their mindsets...

 

[TheGoodGuava]

So, the PGRv2 has come out with a tier list. 30 panelists voted on this.

Here is the data: https://tinyurl.com/jjqm9m2

Here is the tweet: https://twitter.com/ThePGstats/status/827559418430627844

Anyone who disagrees or agrees?

Glad to see Falco where he belongs

 

[MistressRemilia]

Uh he's been in the top 18 of Das Koopa's list for several months now. Even with Trela out of the picture, he's been getting results at majors from the likes of Darkshad and Locus; getting 9th at majors a few times with the best represenative being absent is honestly pretty good. Mega Man and Villager I think should be above him, but he's roughly in the right place.

I also don't know where you're getting this idea of him having a "poor MU spread." He does struggle with some of the top tiers (also beating and going even with others), but that's exactly why he's high rather than top. There are also high tiers that give him trouble (Mega Man and Villager come to mind), but then what?

He doesn't have the results to be any higher. I genuinely believe that is the perfect spot.

Should i really be explaining that overrated does not mean bad?
I simply explained my main counter argument to those who have faith in Ryu, which usually comes from his absurd advantage state, more than anything else. There is no such thing as theory that goes in Ryu's favor when speaking of overall matchup spread & potential consistent viability:
Throughout the metagame's evolution, Ryu has developped several issues that can turn the tables upside down for even the strongest of Ryu mains, the main one being flawed neutral by average mobility & lackluster/non existant antizoning tools: Among the better half of the cast; he's among the most prone to random upset by low tier heroes, as a majority of zoners do reasonably well against Ryu ( Sinji beating Darkshad, Locus recently almost lost to Espeon CH, a Canadian Link, at a recent Canadian tournament, Samus is commonly thought as bothersome as well, the list goes on ). On to swordfighters, mot of them do reasonably well against Ryu as well. I'm not that aware of how well Shulk, Roy & Ike do against Ryu, but i'm mildly confident that the rest of them ( Pits included ) are all fairly even to disadvantageous matchup for Ryu.
On to Top tiers, let's shortly go through them one by one:
- Bayonetta: Thoughts vary, but most would say that Bayonetta has a slight edge over Ryu.
- Diddy: Clearly a disadvantageous matchup, and among the hardest out there as well, that has cockbl*cked a lot of Ryu mains.
- Sheik: Thoughts may vary: Results may ay it's quite decent for Ryu, but Sheik purists will be incline to put Ryu in the " advantageous but volatile " kind of matchup. Cases of " infinite neutral " a la Mr.R may allow Ryu to strike. Either way, not a cockblock but quite a bothersome matchup nonethelesss.
- Mario: Most likely even. I don't have much to say about this one, quite frankly.
- Fox: Advantageous for Ryu, but with various tools to watch out while fighting the character.
- Cloud: Definitly a disadvantageous matchup. Cloud's range nullifying some of Ryu's counterplay & approaching attempts does not do him any good.
- Rosalina&Luma: Very bothersome disadvantageous matchup. RosaLuma's excellent defensive options & options to reply to Ryu doing anything are fatal and truly shows the character's poor disadvantage.
- ZSS, Sonic & Mewtwo: I do not know, i haven't seen these often to talk about them. May a Ryu main enlighten me.

So yeah, what's so good about that? Not much, i would say. Then again, It's an high tier character who has shown to be inconsistent & able to go through some of these matchups through the immense clutch factor that comes with the character's whole advantage state, I do understand that, but still, with such an overall spread ( including a few roadblocks that Ryu mains do not seem to get past: Mainly Diddy & Rosalina, Megaman & Villager being rarities does help the character ) , do you not think of more deserving characters?