Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Emblem Lord]

Thing is tho...Brawler has really eh neutral. He legit just runs around trying to get grabs, random dash attacks and nairs. So let him have his brokenness imo.

 

[Yikarur]

he is not broken at all. He's like a good mid tier. I'm playing this character for 2 years now and I've dropped him now, because the everyone in europe knows the MU and it's super hard to secure kills with that character.
This character is garbage at killing and all his kill moves are high risk high reward which is really bad.

Even if you can choose between Piston Punch and Helicopter Kick (each of them have their merit depending on the MU, fast faller -> Heli kick, Floaties -> Piston Punch is rule of thumb), the character still doesn't exceed mid tier.

This character is REALLY good in doubles tho for obvious reasons.

 

[The-Technique]

Phoenix made a good showing at this week's MSM. Got the bracket reset on Nicko but lost set 2. Still, props to him, especially for beating K9Bruce and Elegant.

Come to think of it, this isn't a matchup seen often in high level play. How do Shulk mains view the Sonic matchup?

 

[PoptartLord]

https://twitter.com/TheTantalus/status/826261099053981697
So, tantalus recently released a response to all the feedback he has been getting.

Also, at the end he asks about stages that could potentially be added (Peach castle 64, Halberd, Caste Siege, UCT, PS2 with hazards).
Personally, i would love to see UCT return, but that is unlikely. also, hype for custom mii sets that aren't 1111.

Halberd is a little iffy, but the rest are fine. What I haven't heard anyone say/acknowledge yet is that when you add more stages you need to add more bans accordingly. Imagine if we had an eleven stage list - two bans is a bit lacking, don't you think?
The lack of Lylat and DH is all sorts of wrong. At least Miis get something but it's like... so close and yet so far.

Peaches castle 64 is one i never see much of. I thought the main issue it had was now edges and that was chnaged in this game. why is it ignored? that bumper will proably lead to less kills than the smashville platform or town and city in general.

The moving platform now having grabable edges is a big deal. Without it even I wouldn't be for legalizing the stage. Regarding the bumper, consider this - it makes the stage a great counterpick against characters with strong vertical juggles. I have used that strategy to great effect before.

PS2 I think is a valid selection.
...
What I do want people to do, is inform him about the motion sickness problem with UCT. I tweet'd him that myself, but we need to make sure they are absolutely aware of the problem.

While I agree with the first part I disagree with the second (not aiming at you, talking about the point in general). If there were, say, a strobe light or rapidly flashing colors I could get behind making UCT non-legal. From my perspective "lots of stuff going on in the background" = "I can't focus and/or get distracted easily", and whenever I hear "but the screen shaking makes it too hard to tell exactly where we are" I want to shout "it lasts for like two seconds, doesnt' happen again for a few minutes, and after seeing it twice it hasnt' stopped me from tracking or hitting anyone". [NOTE: read the rest of the paragraph before responding to the next sentence] Even the alleged motion sickness thing, which I still don't know where/why it happens, are all weaknesses of the player, not the stage. The solution isn't to ban the (what should be legal) stage but to have at least two stage strikes - use one to strike UCT for player reasons and use the remaining one for matchup reasons. There really should have been two choosable stage strikes to begin with (get rid of DSR to free one up if you need to), so it's not like I'm suggesting a ruleset change just to let this one stage in.

-PoptartLord

 

[Deleted member]

Phoenix made a good showing at this week's MSM. Got the bracket reset on Nicko but lost set 2. Still, props to him, especially for beating K9Bruce and Elegant.

Come to think of it, this isn't a matchup seen often in high level play. How do Shulk mains view the Sonic matchup?

Depends on who you ask. Ranges from a slight to solid disadvantage for Shulk.

Our disjoints along with Jump and Speed Art being able to allow us to catch up with Sonic in neutral are big boons, along with Air Slash out of shield being able to beat Spindash everytime. Sonic dislikes dealing with well-spaced nairs and bairs.

Sonic's rushdown is still an issue in the MU and we're combo food, meaning we take great damage if we make a vital mistake. Sonic can also easily not approach us at all when we are in Buster, Smash or Shield meaning our damage racking vs Sonic is pretty unimpressive throughout unless you're feeling really ballsy with Buster. Sonic can also cheese our recovery pretty badly if we don't properly space Air Slash to ledgesnap.

It's a matchup where Shulk has to react rather than enact. Has the potential to be very slow and lame, but he can win if you have the patience and good enough knowledge of Sonic's toolkit. It's still a rather steep hill to climb though.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

While I agree with the first part I disagree with the second (not aiming at you, talking about the point in general). If there were, say, a strobe light or rapidly flashing colors I could get behind making UCT non-legal. From my perspective "lots of stuff going on in the background" = "I can't focus and/or get distracted easily", and whenever I hear "but the screen shaking makes it too hard to tell exactly where we are" I want to shout "it lasts for like two seconds, doesnt' happen again for a few minutes, and after seeing it twice it hasnt' stopped me from tracking or hitting anyone". [NOTE: read the rest of the paragraph before responding to the next sentence] Even the alleged motion sickness thing, which I still don't know where/why it happens, are all weaknesses of the player, not the stage. The solution isn't to ban the (what should be legal) stage but to have at least two stage strikes - use one to strike UCT for player reasons and use the remaining one for matchup reasons. There really should have been two choosable stage strikes to begin with (get rid of DSR to free one up if you need to), so it's not like I'm suggesting a ruleset change just to let this one stage in.

-PoptartLord

Why on earth should somebody with a biological issue with a stage be forced to burn a stage ban on it instead of banning two stages actually important from a character MU perspective? We allow forced team colour changes when colour blindness is involved, the precedent is to change rules for biological reasons. I'm sure if somebody only had one hand and had to have a custom controller to play at all, they'd be allowed to regardless of the "no mods on controllers" rule.

Multiple people have reported motion sickness issues with the stage. I've explained multiple times how sensitive the trigger can be (as simple as a few degrees difference in FoV in a FPS decides the difference between fine and throwing up in 15 minutes). We don't allow things that cause unfair advantages due to biological limitations. UCT is out.

 

[TDK]

The Bumper on Peach's Castle can be DI'ed into for a quick escape from juggle situations, which would make it an excellent counterpick against a lot of Vertical jugglers (Coincidentally, most top tiers are vertical jugglers/killers). It also has a unique platform layout that doesn't have extremely powerful camping spots (It's a good thing the bottom platform's moving.) The blastzone's aren't too huge of an issue, either. I could totally get behind this stage as a counterpick.

Pokémon Stadium 2 is interesting. The transformations are iffy, though only the flying one and possibly the electric one would be of any real concern. Ground is fine, and if the stage stayed in ground/neutral the whole time it'd be a neutral stage for sure. Can someone confirm that just selecting 8-player mode, then entering with 2 people, will cause the stage to remain neutral? If so, just do the entire thing on 8-player. I do wish we had stadium 1, though.

Castle Siege was hated during its time legal, and sends the game grinding to a halt whenever the second transformation comes in, usually. I also can't get behind Halberd, even if the stage hazards are massively exaggerated and very easy to dodge. However, Halberd's tiny blastzones benefit vertical killers way too much.

Nidtendofreak already pointed out that UCT can cause people motion sickness. I can vouch for him, it's a very real thing. And a whole bunch of stuff going on in the back doesn't help (This is why you're supposed to look at a fixed point when you're feeling motion sick - there's nothing in front of you to move around.). It can't really be legal.

Also, what do you all think of Luigi's Mansion or Pirate Ship as a CP?

 

[Routa]

I just want to make this clear:
- Brawler is far from being broken
- Piston Punch is broken

 

[Bowserboy3]

I really want to see UCT legal if I am honest. Perhaps it can cause motion sickness, but because I don't suffer from it (or even know anybody who suffers from it), it probably means I don't get all the outcry about the potential problems it could cause. While harsh, to me, it just seems like people want to use that as an excuse for losing on the stage; like "Oh, I only lost on that stage because it made me feel sick". Harsh, I know, and I apologise for those who actually suffer with that, but like I said, I don't suffer from it so I've probably got a big one dimensional view on it. But hey, we accommodate for colourblindness, so again, I see why this is bought up.

But one thing I really don't understand, is when people say stages are "too distracting" (completely separate from motion sickness). Again, my view, but I don't see how anything can distract you from the game that much. Yeah, big angelic creatures flying in the background might seem distracting, but when I'm playing, I'm focused on me and the opponent, not the background. To me, if you're not concentrating on what's happening in the foreground and get distracted by what's happening in the background, you deserve to lose (or at least deserve that moment when the opponent takes advantage of you for taking your eyes off the ball for a second).

That's my stance (come at me with your pitchforks if you want, but it's just my opinion), but I understand people do have issues with these. But seriously, UCT is just the most deserving of being a legal stage IMO. We could use a real big blastzone stage.

(that and I can hear all the good songs like Let's Dance Boys, Red & Black etc in tournament... yay!)

In regards to PS2, I don't want to have to deal with that wind transformation shi*. Windboxes are "fun" on that transformation ( dying to things like G&W Uair at like 20% is an example).

 

[PoptartLord]

Why on earth should somebody with a biological issue with a stage be forced to burn a stage ban on it instead of banning two stages actually important from a character MU perspective?

Because 1) once things go competitive the only response to "I have a biological issue with X" is "deal with it", and 2) there exists within the rules a way to avoid triggering said issue - use it.

We allow forced team colour changes when colour blindness is involved, the precedent is to change rules for biological reasons.

That's not nearly the same thing. Changing team colors is a trivial matter that doesn't affect gameplay in the slightest. Characters do the same things regardless of team color. Neither does it take away anything from the game. A better example would be someone saying "I have color blindness so I can't tell two Clouds apart, so there can't be one on both teams" (Cloud because all the skins look alike + popularity in teams). That's taking something away, namely a character choice for one team.

I'm sure if somebody only had one hand and had to have a custom controller to play at all, they'd be allowed to regardless of the "no mods on controllers" rule.

If the controller had 1) a 1:1 button mapping, 2) plugged in / synched up and was instantly recognized as a standard controller by an unmodded game, and 3) no macros then yes, that would be allowed. Who would even question that? In fact, that's a great example of "dealing with it". And last I heard, fight sticks are already a thing and usable in tournaments (they hit the three above criteria)(3 is technically a subset of 1).

Multiple people have reported motion sickness issues with the stage. I've explained multiple times how sensitive the trigger can be (as simple as a few degrees difference in FoV in a FPS decides the difference between fine and throwing up in 15 minutes). We don't allow things that cause unfair advantages due to biological limitations. UCT is out.

While I have never experienced it due to UCT I've heard enough to accept that it is a thing that happens. I'm not dismissing its existence, but rather how it affects legality. Only a small percentage of the population is affected, and there's a way for them to 100% avoid playing on the stage already within the rules. Therefore, it doesn't hold much sway after factoring in the other pros and cons of the stage. There is a certain amount of coldness in the transition from "friendly" to "competitive" and we all have our own biological limitations to work around.

Can someone confirm that just selecting 8-player mode, then entering with 2 people, will cause the stage to remain neutral? If so, just do the entire thing on 8-player.

In order for the 8-player mode changes to take effect you need at least five players, otherwise it's no different than the standard mode.

-PoptartLord

 

[Frihetsanka]

Only a small percentage of the population is affected[...]

It might be true that only a small percentage of the population would be affected enough to be unable to play on it, but a lot of people would likely be affected enough to make the stage annoying. Spectators would be affected as well, and they don't have a ban. If they're willing to ban Duck Hunt because tree camping is boring to watch, then they'd probably ban UCT as well because viewers would leave the stream if a stage that makes them somewhat uncomfortable comes up. Also, let's not forget the side-platforms, which allows for really early kills. Lylat is a much more balanced stage. How often does the "fall through" bug come up, anyway?

Just bring Lylat back, then we'd have 5 starters and Dreamland/Omega counter-picks.

 

[meleebrawler]

Did people actually like fighting on Hyrule Castle in 64, or did they only tolerate it so that Dream Land wouldn't be the only legal stage? Just seems a bit odd that it never seems to be even remotely considered...

 

[Frihetsanka]

Did people actually like fighting on Hyrule Castle in 64, or did they only tolerate it so that Dream Land wouldn't be the only legal stage? Just seems a bit odd that it never seems to be even remotely considered...

It's not a good stage for Smash 4. Camping is too easy and it takes way too long to die horizontally, and there are some "caves of life" that you can tech to stay alive even longer. There's also the tornado. Hyrule Castle makes Duck Hunt seem like a good stage in comparison.

Thing is, we don't really need more counter-picks, we need more starters. The 3 starter system is pretty unfair and puts too much emphasis on rock, paper, scissors. Having a small risk of dying to Lylat bugs is not as bad as having a significant risk of being put at a disadvantage due to losing rock, paper, scissors. We need a 5th starter, and given the current Smash 4 stages it should either be Lylat or Dream Land. I think Lylat is more fair, since having Dream Land as a starter would give some characters a huge advantage.

 

[Das Koopa]

here's why hyrule was banned

there is a 23 minute gap where no damage is dealt (this is one game btw not a set)

do not bring this to an even more defensive game holy god can you even imagine sonic on this abomination

 

[Murlough]

*Still here thinking DK Jungle should be looked at.*

Come on its at least better than Peach's Castle and Luigi's ****ing Mansion. xD

I don't understand why this stage is completely forgotten to the sands of time when people near violently demand for duck hunt to come back.

Like, what?

Also I'm on board for Lylat to come back. I hate the stage but we could use some variety at this point.

 

[Frihetsanka]

*Still here thinking DK Jungle should be looked at.*

Camping, barrel jank, and bigger blastzones than Battlefield. It's dead.

Lylat, Dream Land, and Miiverse are the only realistic alternatives for a 5th starter. Every other stage has already been discussed thoroughly enough.

 

[Murlough]

Camping, barrel jank, and bigger blastzones than Battlefield. It's dead.

Lylat, Dream Land, and Miiverse are the only realistic alternatives for a 5th starter. Every other stage has already been discussed thoroughly enough.

Camping was an issue on duck hunt. People still call for its return.

Barrel jank isn't very specific.

Pretty sure Duck Hunt has bigger blastzones and DK Jungle has higher platforms in more than just one area.

I'm not saying this stage should be legal 100%. But if people are seriously this anal about Duck Hunt why doesn't DK get a chance as a better alternative?

I'll drop it after this comment I guess. No one seems to care much so oh well.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Camping was an issue on duck hunt. People still call for its return.

I havven't seen many people ask for Duck Hunt to return, mostly just Lylat.

Barrel jank isn't very specific

It happens, and the underside of the stage is strange too. You can jump through it.

Pretty sure Duck Hunt has bigger blastzones and DK Jungle has higher platforms in more than just one area

http://i.imgur.com/12DcbpX.png

The difference between Battlefield and DK Jungle in vertical blastzones is more than the difference between T&C and Battlefield.

 

[adom4]

Camping was an issue on duck hunt. People still call for its return.

Barrel jank isn't very specific.

Pretty sure Duck Hunt has bigger blastzones and DK Jungle has higher platforms in more than just one area.

I'm not saying this stage should be legal 100%. But if people are seriously this anal about Duck Hunt why doesn't DK get a chance as a better alternative?

I'll drop it after this comment I guess. No one seems to care much so oh well.

Because it was legal for a while in early smash 4 at some places and it was horrible.

 

[ARISTOS]

DK Jungle, PS2 (no 5+ Smash), Hyrule, etc. are all far worse stages than Lylat.

Keeping Lylat is a better decision than scrambling for a replacement because its "objectively broken".

 

[Nah]

Also, what do you all think of Luigi's Mansion or Pirate Ship as a CP?

I'd rather not have Luigi's Mansion be a legal stage when the support beams eat up projectiles and there's those two platforms that can't be passed through.

 

[Murlough]

I don't think very many want to deal with a moving stage like Pirate Ship...it may not be "fair" reasoning but I know that stage would raise the salt levels well beyond anything Lylat has done.

Imagining ZeRo fighting against Dabuz in Grands while racing the stage is pretty funny though.

Also wanna throw out that thinking of stages that could be brought back into the meta isn't "scrambling."

 

[chaos11011]

Why is the Duck Hunt stage banned in doubles? It's a balanced and imo, important stage in the doubles metagame. It's spacious, so it serves as a counterpick that benefit teams that are better at dividing and conquering. It serves as the contrast to Battlefield, the stage that benefits teams that are well optimized in team combos.

Doubles DH will be woefully missed and it upsets me that the was no thought to the doubles metagame due to how shafted and neglected it is. People assume it has the same growth and development as singles, that is simply not true.

 

[Ulevo]

 

[J_the_Man]

Unpopular Opinion: Would like to see the comeback of Delphino Plaza if we're talking about bringing back broken stages for whatever reason.. Has a little bit of everything for everyone.

 

[Domphie]

Kinda sucks to see people still seeing G&W as low tier.

 

[Yikarur]

My post might be a bit longer but I just want to adresse the discussions in here and some point about ruleset creation..

More Stages = More Bans(?)
Adding more stages doesn't mean you have to add more bans. (Whats the point of adding stages then??)
In Brawl there had been a time where we had 11 stages legal but only 1 ban.
(The stages were ... FD, SV, BF, Yoshis Island, Lylat Cruise Pokémon Stadium, Brinstar, Fregate Ophion, Halberd, Castle Siege, Delfino). At that time we would've never thought about adding a second ban, because it was just the status quo to only have 1 ban.
Weird times... my point is that you don't necessarily need more bans, it's depending on the balance of the stages.
If you need to increase the number of bans, because you added 1 stage, then there is a problem with the stage in some way.


Rule of thumb is, if you have only 1 stage left in a Bo5, Game 5 you have too many bans for that stage list.
4 Stages DSR, 4 Bans = you need at least 10 Stages for 2 Bans. (Of course you can pick the stages that fall under your opponents DSR or your own ban, but you don't want to for obvious reasons)

Why DSR is important:
The Dave's Stupid Rule is important, because you get a simple winning conditions with it being absent.
Hypothetical scenario: Imagine 3 starters, imagine your character sucks on FD, second worst stage is BF.
Your opponent can now force you to play BF twice in a Bo3, because he will strike the third stage -> you're forced to pick BF, and after your win, you will ban FD and he can pick BF again.
It doesn't even need to be your worst stage. If your opponent wants SV, and you have to ban a different stage, you have to play on SV twice.

This is an additional problem with 3 starters, but you have the same problem with 5 starters if you're playing a Bo5.
You can force 2/3 of the games to be on your same counterpick. I think characters like ZSS will enjoy it, because you can only ban 1 out of DL64 and TnC..!

Which comes to my next point:

BF = DL64
Everyone knows the differences between those stages so I skip that part.
When talking about bans in this section I'm talking about using your ban to make the MU better, not about preferences:
Banning BF does not make DL64 your auto-pick, because the stages play very different and have a lot of different attributes!
If BF and Miiverse had been treated as different stages, Miiverse would be an auto-pick 99% of the time. This is not the case for BF -> DL64.
More importantly: If your opponent bans DL64, BF is not your auto-pick. I'd say 80% of the time your auto-pick is Town & City in this scenario!

If you ban BF, because you fear the MU on BF, DL64 might be the next choice but isn't necessarily (but not vice versa)
If you ban DL64, because you fear the MU on DL64, TC is almost always the counterpick for the next game (and vice versa)
Making BF and DL64 equal in banning phase is a huge logical mistake, because DL64 -> TC is much more common!

I just want to make this clear:
- Brawler is far from being broken
- Piston Punch is broken

Piston Punch (and Helicopter Kick) are not broken.
They both serve little to no recovery. The hitbox is pretty meh, you can fall out of it if you aren't hitting correctly. It's just an above average kill move at the cost of your recovery. I really wouldn't consider that move(s) broken.


Stages suggested by Tantalus:

Peach castle 64
You have 3 horizontal layers on this stage. 3 layers promote camping heavily because your aim is always to get below your opponent. At the same time the ceiling is about as low as halberd from the highest layer, the bumper can make horizontal moves vertical (by re-directing the knockback, it's quite common).
The big cheese grader on each side "randomly" save you.
I wanted this stage to be legal at release, but this stage is very far from the standards we're using right now. This should not be legal.

Halberd
It's probably the worst stage that has ever been legal. A lot of ladder combos are designed to barely miss the kill. On Halberd every ladder combo is a kill combo. Marios dthrow upair upair [...] upB kills very early. ZSS has a super easy time. Yoshi can uptilt triple upair to kill. Piston Punch Mii Brawler has dthrow upB at 40 to kill. Imagine DK here.
This stage is terrible and should never be legal again.

Caste Siege
The second phase obviously kills this stage. Everytime the second phase starts, 40 seconds are wasted, because either player is
- plattform camping
- some kind of run-away circle camping
- walk-off camping
- standing arround because approaching is impossible

This sucks. Castle Siege will never come back.

Pokémon Stadium 2:
I like this stage. I liked it in Brawl already and we had it legal most of the time in Brawl.
BUT
There is not a single transformation that doesn't promote some kind of camping or has some kind of degenerate gameplay.

Treadmill
You're playing castle defense on this transformation. One is sitting in under the plattform in the middle and the other one tries to approach through the treadmills. The smartest play is to just camp the transformation out.

The Hill
Approaching over a hill is always a big disadvantage for the one approaching. The smartest play is to just camp the transformation out.

The Wind
The wind makes 10%-death combos possible of grabs and the risk/reward is very screwed. The best strategy is to play grounded all the time, because being in air here is such a big disadvantage. Gameplay on this transformation deviates completely from standard gameplay.


Umbra Clock Tower
I love this stage. I said at the very beginning that this stage should replace duck hunt in a 7 stages environment.
The visuals never bothered me and my roommate who had a problem with the visuals got used to it after playing a lot on this stage.
but...
Motion sickness is a real problem. If you're not bothered by the fast movement, the shaking will probably you kill if you're prone to motion sickness.
It's like some people cannot play VR. It's probably genetic and there is nothing you can do about it.


Not suggested but relevant to this thread:
Kongo Jungle 64
This stage is terrible. You CAN actually circle camp on that stage. In various ways. You can use the high plattforms to play hide and seek. You can jump off-stage, get into the barrel and repeat. You're dying incredible late on this stage, because the blastzone is insane. You can clearly say: If some player is going for the time out, he will get it.

Pirate Ship
Pirate Ship has Walk-Off camping. You can just get a lead and jump into the water. There is nothing you can do about it and that's enough to make the stage completely unviable


Story Time: There was a french tournament in summer'15. They had Kongo Jungle legal. I talked to the TO before that this stage is terrible and should not be legal. He disagreed. I made it to winners final and my opponent didn't ban it. I picked the stage and showed everyone on stream that this stage is garbage. I didn't win the set, but france will never have Kongo Jungle legal again!



This game just isn't offering stages we can play on. The meta game will most likely be stuck with 6 stages (if we get 5 starter with lylat through) and that's it.
We can hope for a switch version with new stages. Thats my hope actually. Please Sakurai, please!

I actually like how this thread has become to a "general competitive Smash 4 discussion"
The stage discussion threads are most of the time dead, because no one is looking into it. This is the most likely the most active discussion thread on Smashboards and everything regarding the metagame should be a green topic imo.

 

[Ulevo]

I really dislike this talk about the inclusion of other stages that have been excluded already or that have been banned for a long time because it ditracts from the important discussion, which pertains to Lylat Cruise and Dreamland 64, and Omegas. Tantalus and crew should have started by just banning Duck Hunt, not banning/pseudo banning 3 stages and then telling us we need to 'wait and see' how the meta turns out.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Well if it means anything they did announce at Xanadu yesterday (The tournament run by Tantalus) that based of feedback from the community about the new rule set that Xanadu is going to run the new stage list on a "five week trial period" and then assess afterwards. Lylat coming back or BF-DL split might still happen after all.

 

[Yikarur]

it's stupid to test a ruleset that removes everything. We all know from experience that something is not going to return, once it's gone.

 

[L9999]

Unpopular Opinion: Would like to see the comeback of Delphino Plaza if we're talking about bringing back broken stages for whatever reason.. Has a little bit of everything for everyone.

Delfino Plaza has no business coming back. In the transitions the ceiling gets súper low, the layouts are weird to travel through and promote camping, not to mention walkoffs and water shenanigans.

Kinda sucks to see people still seeing G&W as low tier.

He has done nothing at all to suggest otherwise.

 

[Deleted member]

Kinda sucks to see people still seeing G&W as low tier.

Well, what about him proves he isn't?

 

[Ulevo]

G&W is mid tier at least. He has high damaging combos, an up smash that can be used like Little Mac's moves to counter certain approach options in neutral, a kill confirm from a grab, a hard to gimp recovery, and Fire gets him out of certain strings and 50/50 situations. He is typically a worse bait and punish character and struggles against characters not inclined to approach, but he is not terrible.

 

[my_T]

When people ban BF why do they/you usually ban it?

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

When people ban BF why do they/you usually ban it?

I ban it against characters that get good mileage off platform combo extensions. Mario and Luigi come to mind. Characters with bad landing options I'll ban it as well when using Ness so I can abuse PK Thunder without a platform getting in my way.

I don't mind playing on BF but I prefer SV and FD so I've been banning it more than often in the games I've played in the new rule set

 

[Frihetsanka]

ESAM made a video about the new ruleset; he's not pleased. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg9cqpCvBlY

Edit: Dabuz: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe2XBdl41So

 

[Nidtendofreak]

ESAM made a video about the new ruleset; he's not pleased. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg9cqpCvBlY

Edit: Dabuz: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe2XBdl41So

Good

Now we just need Zero to chime in with a similar video (I saw a twitter post where he was saying Lylat should remain legal) and we might have a chance of the TOs backing down and realizing they screwed up.

 

[ARGHETH]

Good

Now we just need Zero to chime in with a similar video (I saw a twitter post where he was saying Lylat should remain legal) and we might have a chance of the TOs backing down and realizing they screwed up.

Unfortunately, he said that he agrees with more than he disagrees with, so he thinks it's a "good step moving forwards".

 

[Yikarur]

Of course everyone most likely agrees with more than they disagree because the ruleset consists of a lot of points.
The stage list is something entirely different from the rest of the ruleset.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Now we just need Zero to chime in with a similar video (I saw a twitter post where he was saying Lylat should remain legal) and we might have a chance of the TOs backing down and realizing they screwed up.

MVD has also been pretty vocal on Twitter about disliking the new stage list.

Unfortunately, he said that he agrees with more than he disagrees with, so he thinks it's a "good step moving forwards".

I think he's mostly happy that he gets coaching. He might dislike the stage list.

If they test the new system for 5 weeks, then they should go back to the old system for 5 weeks as well in order to properly compare the two. I'm worried that 5 weeks will go and people will be like "This isn't too bad" and we'll end up with the new system, even if it turns out to be worse than the old system.