Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Nidtendofreak]

Unless something fundamentally broken pops up, they won't make any changes in 5 weeks. They're saying that to appease people and get them off of their case. They also know once people are used to something they won't go back.

Basically we need to hope that Sheik becomes oppressively good. Like to the point they have to change the stage list and open it back up.

 

[ARGHETH]

Basically we need to hope that Sheik becomes oppressively good. Like to the point they have to change the stage list and open it back up.

And Mr. R just got banned...

 

[sleepy_Nex]

I hope zero will play more sheik in the new stagelist.

 

[TDK]

https://twitter.com/Mr_RSmash/status/826495506490785792

So he might not be. The real question is how long they'll let Sheiks get away with starting nearly every single set on one of her best stages. (Assuming 1-2 stage striking, unless your opponent bans FD/SV going second.)

The problem then is if you're facing Sheik you have to hope you win RPS and then you're still forced into always striking FD/SV vs Sheik.

Quickly everyone Pick up Sheik and we can show people how bad this stage list is

 

[Frihetsanka]

Unless something fundamentally broken pops up, they won't make any changes in 5 weeks. They're saying that to appease people and get them off of their case. They also know once people are used to something they won't go back.

This is why I think they should make sure to run 5 weeks with a different ruleset afterwards, either the old one or one with 5 starters and no Duck Hunt (and some variation to make sure it works).

 

[Luigi player]

https://twitter.com/Mr_RSmash/status/826495506490785792

So he might not be. The real question is how long they'll let Sheiks get away with starting nearly every single set on one of her best stages. (Assuming 1-2 stage striking, unless your opponent bans FD/SV going second.)

The problem then is if you're facing Sheik you have to hope you win RPS and then you're still forced into always striking FD/SV vs Sheik.

Quickly everyone Pick up Sheik and we can show people how bad this stage list is

People seem to exaggerate stage influence on MUs.
The most influencing stage imo is TaC, because of ladder combos or hoo-has who work earlier or even most of the time instead of just at pretty high %.

FD should be fine against Sheik. Wouldn't you feel safer there than on Lylat where she can get free tipper usmashes if you ever have to land on the platforms? Just so you can sometimes avoid needles? There's also less space so she can pressure and be in your face more easily.

FD is a perfectly neutral stage. The worst thing there is probably Little Mac. Maybe Bowser, DK and Diddy can be annoying as well, because it's easier to catch landings (same goes against them too, though) and in Little Macs case he doesn't have to go up platforms. You can strike it against all of them game 1 either way, though, if you dislike it that much.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

If I have a character that can't deal with running away Sheik but has a good shot against her up close, I would much rather have Lylat. FD I'm going to have to struggle with needles all day. Lower platforms is at least a calculated/even risk. Also means she's going to have more trouble getting away when getting juggled because landing on a platform doesn't mean much.

 

[FeelMeUp]

It's been a good few weeks for a Sheik main.
I'd advocate picking up Diddy over her if you want to abuse the new stagelist, though. Don't play Sheik at midlevel.

 

[Murlough]

Don't play Sheik at midlevel.

Off topic but why do people continue to say this?

I main Sheik along with Mewtwo and my Sheik terrifies (no I'm not kidding) people at my level. I'm upper mid level at best and my Sheik is solid, not optimzed mind you. I also know another guy who mains Sheik at my level who does well.

I feel like this is just like the "Bayonetta has no neutral" meme.

Edit: if it looks like I'm bragging then I apologize. I'm the first to admit I am not excellent. I'm not even a PR player in the states I play in.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

My biggest issue with the new stagelist besides whats already been discussed and mentioned here often is how abruptly the new change came and how much of it changed. It's like, boom, suddenly no Duck Hunt (though given how much negativity I've seen against it, it was inevitable I guess...) and boom, no Lylat. And the Battlefield = Dreamland thing, like what the?

I understand the need for change, absolutely. If defensive play is really that looked down upon, then whatever, ban that and otherwise keep the old ruleset as is to see how that plays out. But instead they effectively just pushed so much at once under a rug to get us to forget, made two stages into one, and now we have essentially only four legal stages to work with, and poor explanations as to why the other stages are gone.

Oh, and local scenes everywhere and other upcoming big tournaments are already adapting this like sheep.

So much for a unified ruleset. Everybody already incredibly torn on whether to adapt to the new one (they shouldn't) or retain their old one we've used for more than a year (we should). I do like change, guys, but only if it affects the games growth positively, and sadly this is a case of one step forward, two steps back as I love certain aspects of the new ruleset and some additions while also loathing the stagelist which alone ruins it for me.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Off topic but why do people continue to say this?

I main Sheik along with Mewtwo and my Sheik terrifies (no I'm not kidding) people at my level. I'm upper mid level at best and my Sheik is solid, not optimzed mind you. I also know another guy who mains Sheik at my level who does well.

I feel like this is just like the "Bayonetta has no neutral" meme.

Edit: if it looks like I'm bragging then I apologize. I'm the first to admit I am not excellent. I'm not even a PR player in the states I play in.

because sheik isn't good unless you know and can do everything.
a good example i could use is combo optimization, which isn't really there at all at mid level. poorly optimized combos means that instead of getting 54-70% on Falcon off a grab at 0 you instead get 19-25% and have to win neutral 3x as much as before, which isn't reasonably possible against people at or above your skill level.
to avoid making this an unnecessarily long post i'll say that midlevel sheik doesn't have a good enough reward for how impossible it is for her to kill. the reason i say she loses to a fat portion of the cast here(and probably a few more) is because her reward is garbage and she is always playing a losing battle against Rage. The character doesn't do enough damage, loses a lot of neutral situations she wouldn't at top level, repeatedly takes trades, and consistently manages to get eaten alive any time she's put in a combo situation.
she's poopy unless you're really good at the game or flat out better than the other player. just play someone else. like diddy. or cloud. or mario. sonic, even. pick her up later unless you really wanna deal with the grind to the top.

 

[chaos11011]

The ban to Duck Hunt doesn't make the metagame healthier, it just makes it more marketable. Let that be known. It was a ban to appeal to the viewers as opposed to the strategic mindset of the players.

Saying defensive/campy play is "objectively" bad is the equivalent of me saying that being "carried by the top" by platform stages and low risk/high reward aggression is "objectively" bad. The stage was fine, but not marketable, which kind of sucks. It's scary how these kind of things can affect the growth of the game.

Question: Do you think grassroots vs esports can affect the metagame? Would a stagelist be different if we didn't have streams and sponsors to appeal to?

 

[Nobie]

If players feel uncomfortable with campy strategies and opponents, then they should probably just have more bans available to them. Forcing defensive players to suffer seems backwards to me.

Also, what kind of masochistic Mii Swordfighter actively chooses Aerial Assault?

 

[Emblem Lord]

The ban to Duck Hunt doesn't make the metagame healthier, it just makes it more marketable. Let that be known. It was a ban to appeal to the viewers as opposed to the strategic mindset of the players.

Saying defensive/campy play is "objectively" bad is the equivalent of me saying that being "carried by the top" by platform stages and low risk/high reward aggression is "objectively" bad. The stage was fine, but not marketable, which kind of sucks. It's scary how these kind of things can affect the growth of the game.

Question: Do you think grassroots vs esports can affect the metagame? Would a stagelist be different if we didn't have streams and sponsors to appeal to?

THIS RIGHT HERE!!!!!

 

[|RK|]

I don't think anyone said defensive or campy play was bad. I don't think we should conflate the two.

Defensive/campy: Good strategy, valid, very interesting to watch. Camping player must continue to adapt to the opponent in order to avoid them.
Duck Hunt camping: Good strategy, valid, not interesting to watch. The player that is not camping is the only one that needs to adapt to anything. Player that is camping barely has to adapt to opponent.

 

[L9999]

Also, what kind of masochistic Mii Swordfighter actively chooses Aerial Assault?

1) The guys behind the Mii rulesets don't much about Miis to begin with. 2) No one plays Swordfighter so no one will complain or say which is the optimal moveset.

 

[Das Koopa]

End of January Tourney update

Spoiler: Smash of the Titans 15 (January 19th) (Northern California) (186 Entrants) (Category 3)

1st: Trevonte
2nd: 9B
3rd: You3
4th: Xzax
5th: Day
5th: Ito
7th: Umeki
7th: Kameme ,
9th: RAIN
9th: Shaky
9th: Nietono
9th: Zenyou
13th: Stark ,
13th: Hitaku
13th: FILIP
13th: Brood

Spoiler: Sumabato 15 (January 28th) (Japan) (185 Entrants) (Category 3)

1st: Shuton
2nd: 9B
3rd: Choco
4th: Rizeasu
5th: Saiya
5th: Suinoko
7th: Tsu-
7th: You3
9th: Kome
9th: HIKARU
9th: MASA
9th: Masashi
13th: Atelier
13th: Mangalitza
13th: Ron ,
13th: FILIP

Spoiler: Smash Valley (January 27th-29th) (Germany) (148 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Dabuz ,
2nd: Glutonny
3rd: quiK
4th: Homika
5th: Cyve ,
5th: Griffith ,
7th: Light
7th: SirJon

Spoiler: Frosty Faustings IX (January 27th-28th) (Midwest) (88 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Ally
2nd: Ned
3rd: Dyr
4th: NiTe
5th: Bushi
5th: JJROCKETS
7th: dare2dream
7th: Vermillion

Spoiler: Battery Basement 8 (January 28th) (Rocky Mountains) (98 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Zenyou
2nd: JK
3rd: Dragon ,
4th: Fisting Koalas

Spoiler: FTS: The WRECKpublic (January 28th) (Midwest) (65 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: MJG
2nd: Sinnyboo242
3rd: Nev
4th: Doom Bot

Spoiler: Kingslayer 2 (January 28th) (Midwest) (109 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Fatality
2nd: Ryuga
3rd: LOE1
4th: IcyMist

Spoiler: Divine Intervention II (January 29th) (Southeast) (102 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Wrath
2nd: LordMix ,
3rd: HyperKirby
4th: Kodystri ,
5th: Rango
5th: Mekos
7th: Neos
7th: Salt One

Spoiler: Final Passage of Games 6 (January 28th) (Northern California) (58 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Trevonte
2nd: Zex
3rd: Jehtt
4th: Soulimar

Spoiler: Elements Fighting Games Challenge (January 28th) (Canada) (55 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Locus
2nd: Big D ,
3rd: Exodia
4th: Len

Spoiler: Super Armor 2 (January 28th) (Florida) (88 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Manny
2nd: Cashmere
3rd: Rideae
4th: Child

Spoiler: Smash Factor Prelude #1 (January 28th) (Mexico) (104 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Javi ,
2nd: Serge ,
3rd: BrianZ
4th: Regi Shikimi ,
5th: Hyuga
5th: CloudY
7th: 72k
7th: Sou

Spoiler: CouchWarriors January Ranking Battle (January 28th) (Australia) (108 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Extra
2nd: Poppt1
3rd: Ghost
4th: Jdizzle
5th: Duon
5th: Snugs
7th: Boozer
7th: Revax

 

[Yikarur]

For me this stage list has basically only 3 stages.
It's statistically stronger if you like FD or SV to just ban Battlefield, because suddenly you've banned almost 50% of all available stages.
So FD, SV and TC are basically the only legal stages left.

You even get the Wilys Castle Option to profit from a wall.

This is so terrible and bad. How could anyone ever agree to this?
You don't need much of a logic and an understanding of game theory to realize that this is objectively bad.

 

[Ulevo]

Essentially what has happened here is all the platform oriented stages have been wiped off the stage list, for reasons Yikarur explained. Which is asinine, because that gives certain characters a major advantage.

Good luck landing against Diddy Kong.

 

[Das Koopa]

by the way, my database will be updated with a Eastern/Western/Northern Canada map. I'm dividing Canada's regions for the time being mostly because I need to merge British Columbia into the Pacific Northwest.

how big is the nunavut scene

 

[|RK|]

Essentially what has happened here is all the platform oriented stages have been wiped off the stage list, for reasons Yikarur explained. Which is asinine, because that gives certain characters a major advantage.

Good luck landing against Diddy Kong.

I thought Diddy liked Lylat and DH a lot more? Doesn't this actually make life better for projectile characters?

 

[Ulevo]

I thought Diddy liked Lylat and DH a lot more? Doesn't this actually make life better for projectile characters?

Yes it does, and Banana is a projectile. Diddy likes Duck Hunt but when all the platform stages that could help to alleviate pressure are gone with a single ban, who cares?

 

[verbatim]

how big is the nunavut scene

They kind of died out along with Brawl after it was revealed that Ice Climbers would not be in Smash 4. Here's hoping Smash 4 Switch will have what it takes to revitalize the scene.

 

[The-Technique]

K9 pulls out the pocket Cloud...and gets wasted by Elegant in less than a minute. RIP

 

[Bowserboy3]

I think this is one of the most relevant reasons why people are slightly p***ed at the new ruleset (and perhaps one of the reasons why it's flawed in one way or another)...

http://imgur.com/a/ngFH0

It's like, they're passing it as a "recommended" ruleset, global from what I've heard, yet EVERYBODY who participated is from the US (and then a big majority from the same region); it's pretty much a "US recommended ruleset".

If it is meant to be "global", what happened to the global input? What happened to the input from Europe, Japan, or Canada for example?

It's part of this reason why (most of, there might be a few weeklies here and there following it, but for the majority) the UK is refusing to implement the new stage rules and other misc rules (I say that, because we're on 3 stock, which we recently voted for again).

But like others have said, all it takes is for one major UK tournament to adopt these rules and then everybody will follow like sheep... sigh...

 

[Das Koopa]

character results for January sure are weird

megapost coming in the next 1-2 days

 

[Swamp Sensei]

character results for January sure are weird

megapost coming in the next 1-2 days

How weird is weird exactly?

Just strange rises and falls?

Revenge of the lows tiers?

 

[PK Bash]

I think this is one of the most relevant reasons why people are slightly p***ed at the new ruleset (and perhaps one of the reasons why it's flawed in one way or another)...

http://imgur.com/a/ngFH0

It's like, they're passing it as a "recommended" ruleset, global from what I've heard, yet EVERYBODY who participated is from the US (and then a big majority from the same region); it's pretty much a "US recommended ruleset".

If it is meant to be "global", what happened to the global input? What happened to the input from Europe, Japan, or Canada for example?

It's part of this reason why (most of, there might be a few weeklies here and there following it, but for the majority) the UK is refusing to implement the new stage rules and other misc rules (I say that, because we're on 3 stock, which we recently voted for again).

But like others have said, all it takes is for one major UK tournament to adopt these rules and then everybody will follow like sheep... sigh...

Truth be told, if major European tournaments started following this ruleset then the UK would probably switch sooner or later since it has always geared itself to the European scene more broadly, which has always done its own thing completely separate to America anyway. Obviously Europe is not going to change to this ruleset. You can't really create an international standard ruleset when there isn't and has never been an international-standard metagame and to be honest I don't think the guys who came up with this expected it to be applied internationally.
Apart from the stage list there isn't really a whole lot different as far as standard USA fare is concerned, and to be honest it was probably a good idea to write it all down anyway as it removes a lot of potential confusion. The main problem is going to be changing the thing later down the line. If rules are going to change then they have to change literally now otherwise its just not going to happen. Not efficiently, anyway, and not without damaging the "legitimacy/authority" (neither is the right word but I don't know what word to use) of the ruleset.
I think their hearts were in the right place when they came up with this, but its a shame that the stage list is so controversial as that will be the undoing and potentially the demise of this ruleset if they don't sort this out.

I guess I need to talk about competitive impressions of my character in order to keep my post relevant and not in the red?
Ness will enjoy not being camped on Duck Hunt and not having to aim his already ****ty and exploitable recovery at ledges that move. Really don't know what else to say. It's not going to make him (or anyone else that is lacking?) significantly more viable.
I don't really think Lucas is going to give a damn either way, especially as his meta has only recently started to flourish really. I think whatever stages he has to play on, the future has the potential to be very bright for him.
Not that it matters to me because I'll still be playing on these stages either way. To be honest I'm more annoyed that because of clause 1.3 I'll never see Grands played out on Pac-Land ever again (shoutouts M2K and Ryo) because, from a spectator perspective, that was hype as hell. Ah well.
---
Edit @below: as far as I can tell nothing about the current ban would bar Leo from travelling to the USA unless he's a citizen of one of the seven countries specified. Apart from that I think he is in the clear for now.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Off topic briefly, but I have a legitimate worry/question here.

We're aware of the issues with Mr R and not being able to compete in the US...

But what about Leo? Can he still travel to the US and compete? Does his visa allow him to still travel or something?

 

[ARGHETH]

Off topic briefly, but I have a legitimate worry/question here.

We're aware of the issues with Mr R and not being able to compete in the US...

But what about Leo? Can he still travel to the US and compete? Does his visa allow him to still travel or something?

I mean...Trump hasn't said anything about blocking Mexico yet, and he has a legit visa, so there shouldn't be any problems.
Mr. R's problem is more him having an Iran-Netherlands dual citizenship.

 

[Piipp]

because sheik isn't good unless you know and can do everything.
a good example i could use is combo optimization, which isn't really there at all at mid level. poorly optimized combos means that instead of getting 54-70% on Falcon off a grab at 0 you instead get 19-25% and have to win neutral 3x as much as before, which isn't reasonably possible against people at or above your skill level.
to avoid making this an unnecessarily long post i'll say that midlevel sheik doesn't have a good enough reward for how impossible it is for her to kill. the reason i say she loses to a fat portion of the cast here(and probably a few more) is because her reward is garbage and she is always playing a losing battle against Rage. The character doesn't do enough damage, loses a lot of neutral situations she wouldn't at top level, repeatedly takes trades, and consistently manages to get eaten alive any time she's put in a combo situation.
she's poopy unless you're really good at the game or flat out better than the other player. just play someone else. like diddy. or cloud. or mario. sonic, even. pick her up later unless you really wanna deal with the grind to the top.

Sheik is good. Sheik will always be good. But it's about the PLAYERS at midlevel that struggle to optimize all of her options (mainly just rephrasing what you said).

But how do you expect the midlevel players to transition to high/top level play with a specific character they want to do it with if they just pick up someone like Diddy? Sure they'll grow fundamentally but in terms of character specific tech skill, learning Sheik will be a lot harder for them. Especially if they don't 100% drop Diddy (or character used to make the transition).

If someone is trying to achieve a goal with a certain character even if they get bodied at certain matchups their character wins at top level, then it's up to them to grind out and learn the matchup, because it's definitely possible. It's all up to the user to figure out what they need to do to make the transition and be exceptional with their character.

I just feel like the answer should never be "just pick someone else", unless the player just wants to win.

 

[Ulevo]

Please refer all discussion about the new proposed stage list to this thread, and make sure to vote.

https://smashboards.com/threads/the-proposed-ruleset-stage-discussion-vote-here.445308/

 

[TDK]

I know you all are probably sick of these, but False made a new MU chart for Marth recently (By which I mean 4 days ago):

Spoiler

 

[Frihetsanka]

Now, see, with that MU chart I could see Marth being top tier.

 

[Yikarur]

People really suck in creating MU charts. I should really stop looking at them.

 

[Rizen]

I know you all are probably sick of these, but False made a new MU chart for Marth recently (By which I mean 4 days ago):

Spoiler

View attachment 125589

It's interesting to see he thinks Marth +1s Lucina.

I agree Link loses to Marth -1. Marcina is really good at zoning Link with their big arching swings and they are mobile enough to get in. They are killer edge guarders that can out-range Link's upB and Fair and they have the power to kill early.
Link has options of his own and can force their approach. He can harass them offstage safely with projectiles and outranges their sword with clawshot moves. With that said once Marcina gets in, anywhere in the circle of their sword reach, they do better than Link and Marcina can get in.

PS
I do find Marth more threatening than Lucina but not enough to give them a different MU score.

 

[|RK|]

Mario as even is interesting, considering Ally and ANTi's records against Leo.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Despite both Leo and Mr. E beating top level Diddy players left and right, it's still a - 1? Ok False

 

[mountain_tiger]

G&W is mid tier at least. He has high damaging combos, an up smash that can be used like Little Mac's moves to counter certain approach options in neutral, a kill confirm from a grab, a hard to gimp recovery, and Fire gets him out of certain strings and 50/50 situations. He is typically a worse bait and punish character and struggles against characters not inclined to approach, but he is not terrible.

Unfortunately that last sentence of yours perfectly summarises the primary reason G&W isn't higher than he is now. In this game you don't necessarily need to be 'terrible' to be lower tier - you just need to be worse than a significant enough proportion of the cast. And struggling against characters who don't have to approach and who G&W can't get to approach him is a really bad flaw to have when so many of the top tier characters are good at playing defensively - Sheik, Sonic, Rosalina etc.

As for a couple of the strengths you listed:

an up smash that can be used like Little Mac's moves to counter certain approach options in neutral - G&W's USmash is the perfect move for scouting out how well people know the MU. Once you know to watch out for it, its lack of range plus very slow start-up don't do it many favours and make it easy to scout out and punish. It definitely has its uses still (especially to catch landings), but it's certainly loses its ability to strike fear into people's hearts after a while.

a kill confirm from a grab - This is always nice to have... but you do have to actually land that grab in the first place, something you can't always take for granted with a poor grab like G&W's and, as already mentioned above, a comparative lack of ability to force approaches or risks from the opponent.

In fact, this actually leads onto G&W's second big flaw - he has quite a tough time actually landing a kill move (once you learn USmash's nuances and FSmash's sluggish frame data and awkward hitbox). This becomes a bigger problem still given that G&W is one of the lightest characters in the game, meaning that Rage hurts him more than it helps him by quite a large margin. When you look at super lightweights who are considered good, like Mewtwo, Rosalina, Fox etc. a consistent trend is that they excel at landing the finishing blow; super lights that can't do that tend to be in a spot of bother.

Does all of this mean G&W will never improve significantly in the rankings? Well... I won't say it's impossible, but at present there's simply not evidence to support an affirmative answer to that question.

 

[FeelMeUp]