Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[FeelMeUp]

https://smash.gg/tournament/gambit-falln/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/99590?per_page=20&filter={"phaseId":99590,"id":301010}&page=1
Large tourney happening in AZ right now featuring falln. Lost to a player named the weasel in pools and got out 3rd seed. You can be a top 50 player and still lose to someone who is not known even at this point in smash 4's meta. Wow.

Top 50 players in Melee lose to nobodies as well, to be fair.
I don't think true consistency is found until you hit the upper echelons of 10-15.

 

[Yikarur]

You can always lose in a 2 Stock Bo3 meta. That's why you see tons of upsets in Bo3 but in Top32 Bo5 you rarely see upsets of that margin.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I think we had a debate awhile back about two stock versus three stock. Which do you prefer? I don't mind two stock myself but i've seen a lot of advocates for three stock play...

 

[Peppermint1201]

I think we had a debate awhile back about two stock versus three stock. Which do you prefer? I don't mind two stock myself but i've seen a lot of advocates for three stock play...

there goes any semblance of character viability discussion

 

[chaos11011]

While this tournament has less than 70 players, the New England Fox, Light, took out both Pugwest and Mr. E to make it into Grand Finals against Marss. Light recently became a New England PR'd player back in August and it's amazing to see his strides since his waves of improvement.

Here's the link if anyone is interested: https://www.twitch.tv/underworldgamez

EDIT: And Marss takes it 3-0

 

[Dre89]

You're an idiot.

Shielding is not even remotely close in the slightest. 1) If somebody was that sensitive they wouldn't be able to play any type of video games period. Because they'd have to be that sensitive in order for it to be a problem in the same way motion sickness is a problem. 2) That would only be for individual games making it an unfair situation as anybody who never ran into that person would always get to use their shields the whole game while others wouldn't get to for one set. Banning a stage means nobody ever gets to use it which is even across the whole playing field, not just within the tournament but country wide. Heck its even world wide. 3) A specific stage isn't a fundamental part of fighting your opponent. Having a stage period is, but not a specific stage. Shielding is a fundamental part of fighting your opponent, without it a fight wouldn't work.

You are also clearly clueless and ignorant as to what motion sickness is. Spoilers: outside of it being related to the worst case symptom the stomach isn't involved at all. "Weak stomach" proves you know nothing about the situation but are trying to make an opinion without info. Which is stupid.

An actual, proper comparison would be banning a stage because it causes seizures. Some people can't play video games period because of seizures yes but some have better thresholds and can play some video games. If a stage came out that was a BF like layout with no hazards, but had flashing lights that triggered seizures in those with a better threshold, it would be banned. No questions asked. The moment it happened in a tournament it would be gone and anyone who asked for it to be added back saying "well those people could just ban it" would be laughed at. Or ripped apart for their stupidity. Does motion sickness cause quite that level of problems? No, but it can leave people doubled over, throwing up, and unable to stand if they try to push through it. They won't be able to compete further in the tournament, not for a good half hour at least.

Also important: there ain't good medications for it that don't make you drowsy and screw over your reaction time. So you'd be asking them to hinder themselves for an entire tournament if you were to tell them "just take the meds". I have ulcerative colitis, but its meds (mostly) don't hinder my ability to compete in tournaments so I can take them fine. This ain't the same case.

And no, there is no fair way to have UCT legal and not screw somebody over. If somebody has to ban it due to motion sickness they can never ban based on the MU. That screws them over. Being given an extra ban if motion sickness is a problem means that opponent doesn't have a consistent stage list to deal with, which is unfair as its inconsistent in terms of what tools they had to use throughout the tournament.

Don't reenter this conversation until you have some basic knowledge and some basic argument skills. You have neither right now.

Not sure why you're mentioning the details of the sickness when they never have to play on the stage. They can just always ban it.

Also not sure why you bring up that people would have to ban it regardless of MU. Lots of people ban stages like Lylat and DHD regardless of MU due to not liking them. Banning stages due to personal weaknesses isn't new.

 

[Yikarur]

Not sure why you're mentioning the details of the sickness when they never have to play on the stage. They can just always ban it.

Also not sure why you bring up that people would have to ban it regardless of MU. Lots of people ban stages like Lylat and DHD regardless of MU due to not liking them. Banning stages due to personal weaknesses isn't new.

No joke, are you trolling? You better be. Srsly.

They HAVE to and they CHOOSE to is a very diffrent thing.

 

[Aaron1997]

https://www.twitch.tv/lowtierlegends

King of the springs going on right now FT. Samsora, Wadi, MJG, AeroLink, Karna and Sonido Aka Brawlman1K (Sonic that beat M2K a while back)

I was at this and almost beat MJG BibleThump

 

[TDK]

Not sure why you're mentioning the details of the sickness when they never have to play on the stage. They can just always ban it.

Also not sure why you bring up that people would have to ban it regardless of MU. Lots of people ban stages like Lylat and DHD regardless of MU due to not liking them. Banning stages due to personal weaknesses isn't new.

There's a difference between banning a stage because you don't like playing on it vs banning a stage because trying to play on it can make you very sick for almost half an hour. Just saying.

 

[Frihetsanka]

If, say, 40% of the people playing the stage suffer some mild discomfort (minor headache, a little nausea, etc), and 0.1% suffer some major discomfort (vomiting, being unable to stand, etc), should the stage be banned? Yeah, probably. It's not like we're lacking stages, we could just use Lylat instead. The bugs are probably more rare than getting motion sick from UCT (I don't think 40% if far off, but I haven't surveyed people).

Just bring Lylat back. 5 starters, and maybe Dream Land as a counter-pick. We could test some Omegas as counter-picks as well, why not?

 

[Jona Bon Boa]

Since no one posted this...
Umebura Tokaigi Qualifer - 268 Entrants

1. Nairo
2. KEN
3. 9B
4. Kirihara
5. Hikaru
6. T
7. Atelier
7. Nietono
9. Raito
9. Jill
9. shKy
9. Ri-ma
13. Choco
13. Earth
13. Mansa
13. Brood
17. Yagi
17. You3
17. Nyanko
17. Rizeasu
17. Yuzu
17. Ryogi
17. Kisha
17. Tamushika

When's the last time we saw 3 Zss's in top 16?

 

[Aaron1997]

Since no one posted this...
Umebura Tokaigi Qualifer - 268 Entrants

1. Nairo
2. KEN
3. 9B
4. Kirihara
5. Hikaru
6. T
7. Atelier
7. Nietono
9. Raito
9. Jill
9. shKy
9. Ri-ma
13. Choco
13. Earth
13. Mansa
13. Brood
17. Yagi
17. You3
17. Nyanko
17. Rizeasu
17. Yuzu
17. Ryogi
17. Kisha
17. Tamushika

On the topic of DHD, this tweet saids it all

https://twitter.com/PG_juddy96/status/827827623254437888

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Not sure why you're mentioning the details of the sickness when they never have to play on the stage. They can just always ban it.

Also not sure why you bring up that people would have to ban it regardless of MU. Lots of people ban stages like Lylat and DHD regardless of MU due to not liking them. Banning stages due to personal weaknesses isn't new.

As multiple people have said there's a massive difference between not wanting to play on a stage because it favors a certain character MU and not wanting to play on a stage because it makes you physically sick but not your opponent. That's a seriously unfair advantage and several people will cry foul from that. I know you want to see UCT as a stage but there's too many reasons that people don't want it. Should we drop this and instead question how character MUs are affected by the layout of specific stages?

 

[Rizen]

On the topic of DHD, this tweet saids it all

https://twitter.com/PG_juddy96/status/827827623254437888

To be fair the west could probably make a similar tweet about to Japan. 's really popular in Japan.

 

[Das Koopa]

Javi 3 -2 Ally , eliminating him from Midwest Mayhem 7

 

[Floor]

I'm with Dre89 . There has to be a limit as to who we can and cannot accommodate. This applies outside of Smash too but let's not get into that. Do we ban FD because the lights can get a little bright? Hell no. Should we legalize UCT? I would personally be open to give it a test run; it probably wouldnt stay but it would be interesting to see what happens. But don't outright ban it simply because of a little movement that 0.01% of anyone would ever complain about due to have legitamate motion sickness related illness.

The ideal tournament settings are far from perfect as it is. Loud environment, cramped setting and you're constantly bumping into people next to you as you play your matches, the loud speaker, stress, seeing your friends do well while you aren't, playing late in the day... I too wish we could all reserve large white soundproof rooms to play our matches in but that's not a reality. Having Smash cater 100% to people with mild motion sickness likewise isn't a reason to permanently change the meta and stages.

I'm also VERY strongly opposed to certain insults that were said (such insults and posts have been warned). Insulting someone (not debating or explaining your side, but INSULTING) is against Smashboard rules and destroys the channel of constructive communication. Don't just regard posts and users as sheer lunacy

 

[Rizen]

I'm with Dre89 . There has to be a limit as to who we can and cannot accommodate. This applies outside of Smash too but let's not get into that. Do we ban FD because the lights can get a little bright?

Does FD cause anyone motion sickness or interfere with gameplay?

Hell no.

^ It's a different beast from Clock Tower.

Also about 33% of people get motion sickness even in minor situations.

 

[ARGHETH]

I'm with Dre89 . There has to be a limit as to who we can and cannot accommodate. This applies outside of Smash too but let's not get into that. Do we ban FD because the lights can get a little bright? Hell no. Should we legalize UCT? I would personally be open to give it a test run; it probably wouldnt stay but it would be interesting to see what happens. But don't outright ban it simply because of a little movement that 0.01% of anyone would ever complain about due to have legitamate motion sickness related illness.

The ideal tournament settings are far from perfect as it is. Loud environment, cramped setting and you're constantly bumping into people next to you as you play your matches, the loud speaker, stress, seeing your friends do well while you aren't, playing late in the day... I too wish we could all reserve large white soundproof rooms to play our matches in but that's not a reality. Having Smash cater 100% to people with mild motion sickness likewise isn't a reason to permanently change the meta and stages.

I'm also VERY strongly opposed to certain insults that were said (such insults and posts have been warned). Insulting someone (not debating or explaining your side, but INSULTING) is against Smashboard rules and destroys the channel of constructive communication. Don't just regard posts and users as sheer lunacy

So are we really pretending UCT is this amazing stage only banned because of motion sickness? I mean, there's a reason it was banned in the first place, and that isn't it.

 

[Floor]

So are we really pretending UCT is this amazing stage only banned because of motion sickness? I mean, there's a reason it was banned in the first place, and that isn't it.

banned for many reasons and I personally won't strongly rally behind it's legalization. I just don't acknowledge "because motion sickness" as a reason it should stay banned

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Actually now i'm genuinely curious since I'm a complete NOOB behind the competitive scene. Why WAS UTC banned exactly?

 

[Floor]

Actually now i'm genuinely curious since I'm a complete NOOB behind the competitive scene. Why WAS UTC banned exactly?

Here's my understanding

Platforms were very unnatural and I think unpredictable.
Certain platforms are solid and have ledges (I havent played on UCT in ages so I'm a little rusty on how it works).
Certain platforms can move under the stage and create campy situations (where no one wants to give up their favorable position) and can create traps where a fox spams utilt for instance and the opponent cant escape from between Fox uptilting and the underside of the stage.
In addition, there were 7 other stages that were more balanced and fair. It was cancerous for characters like Little Mac (recycle and Duck Hunt argument and place it here)

 

[paperchao]

Honestly, motion sickness is the only thing keeping UCT banned, the other negative that people bring up with camping on the walk off or under the stage, only lasts for 15 seconds. And if the opponent waits it out, the camper usually finds themselves losing stage control in the end, and if its the platform under the edge, they could get stuck on the ledge, which can be really bad against top tiers like diddy and shiek who can cover ledge options extremely well, it'd be nice to have a big blastzone stage without permanent platforms on the stagelist.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Here's my understanding

Platforms were very unnatural and I think unpredictable.
Certain platforms are solid and have ledges (I havent played on UCT in ages so I'm a little rusty on how it works).
Certain platforms can move under the stage and create campy situations (where no one wants to give up their favorable position) and can create traps where a fox spams utilt for instance and the opponent cant escape from between Fox uptilting and the underside of the stage.
In addition, there were 7 other stages that were more balanced and fair. It was cancerous for characters like Little Mac (recycle and Duck Hunt argument and place it here)

I noticed that a lot of stages are banned either because a certain character is terrible at them, or because a character is so much better at them than anyone else. Do certain characters have trouble with certain LEGAL stages too? I know there's a stage legality discussion thread but this is more in relation to the character MUs not the stages.

 

[Floor]

I noticed that a lot of stages are banned either because a certain character is terrible at them, or because a character is so much better at them than anyone else. Do certain characters have trouble with certain LEGAL stages too? I know there's a stage legality discussion thread but this is more in relation to the character MUs not the stages.

For sure. And to be clear, I'm hardly against banning stages because one or more characters is good on them; that's what a stage ban is for imo. Little Mac prefers big flat stages without platforms, puff prefers stages with large blast zones (fun note: most puffs would take their opponent to BF, but never to DL. Just a fun fact to know when you're protesting the new ruleset). The banning of Duck hunt eliminated some of the "characters having trouble on certain stages" but eliminating it also doesn't cure the problem. Some characters will always prefer certain stages

 

[Krysco]

What about Skyloft? The Zelda Skyward Sword stage. Was never even given the chance to be legal or a counterpick while Delfino and Castle Siege were allowed for a time. It's not as big as Wuhu and doesn't have the dangerous shifting ceiling that Delfino has. Admittedly, it's been so long since I last played on the stage that I don't recall all of the transformations, I know there's some with walk-offs but I don't know how many is deemed too many (current stage list would imply any walk off is bad).

Funny that I of all people ask given the potato quality video I made on the stage but that was just me jumping into **** to see what you could go through, what could hurt you and what couldn't. Pretty sure all of the go through and damaging stuff is guaranteed at certain points so it's not 'random'.

Spoiler: Skyloft video

 

[Aaron1997]

King of the Springs (Hot Springs, AR) (124 entrants)

1. Samsora
2. Wadi
3. Karna
4. Sonido
5. MJG
5. Phenom
7. iiGGY
7. Muse
9. Ketsen
9. Chuck Nasty
9. AeroLink
9. JaySon
13. Quilly
13. Makibaz
13. Skillager
13. Cheezeballer

 

[TDK]

Midwest Mayhem 7 (155 Entrants) (Midwest)

1st: Ned
2nd: Zinoto
3rd: Skorpio
4th: Javi
5th: Ally
5th: Tyroy
7th: Regi
7th: big_mak
9th: Ozone
9th: Seth
9th: Shel
9th: Ryuga
13th: JJROCKETS
13th: Ksev
13th: Renegade
13th: Nero

Chag placed 17th, losing to JTDUNX and Nero

 

[ARGHETH]

Midwest Mayhem 7 (155 Entrants) (Midwest)

1st: Ned
2nd: Zinoto
3rd: Skorpio
4th: Javi
5th: Ally
5th: Tyroy
7th: Regi (Alsso went but was 3-0'ed both times he went her)
7th: big_mak
9th: Ozone
9th: Seth
9th: Shel
9th: Ryuga
13th: JJROCKETS
13th: Ksev
13th: Renegade
13th: Nero

Chag placed 17th, losing to JTDUNX and Nero

Huh. Skorpio beat Tyroy and Javi, and lost 3-2 to Zinoto.

 

[Das Koopa]

Midwest Mayhem 7 (155 Entrants) (Midwest)

1st: Ned
2nd: Zinoto
3rd: Skorpio
4th: Javi
5th: Ally
5th: Tyroy
7th: Regi (Alsso went but was 3-0'ed both times he went her)
7th: big_mak
9th: Ozone
9th: Seth
9th: Shel
9th: Ryuga
13th: JJROCKETS
13th: Ksev
13th: Renegade
13th: Nero

Chag placed 17th, losing to JTDUNX and Nero

regi 3-2'd seth with lucina

King of the Springs (Hot Springs, AR) (124 entrants)

1. Samsora
2. Wadi
3. Karna
4. Sonido
5. MJG
5. Phenom
7. iiGGY
7. Muse
9. Ketsen
9. Chuck Nasty
9. AeroLink
9. JaySon
13. Quilly
13. Makibaz
13. Skillager
13. Cheezeballer

https://oddshot.tv/shot/UzrVQX33VQVHLKXgiveb-ArC

 

[TDK]

At this point I've lost track of the amount of 0-deaths, reset combos, and infinites Peach has.

 

[FeelMeUp]

does dair parasol seriously work on almost any light character with only 100% rage
am i missing something

 

[Terror Slade]

I'm a lurker who typically reads and doesn't say much but I just want to say that as someone who gets motion sick playing UCT, I see a lot of people speaking about it like it's some weak excuse or "you should just use our ban on it". The issue with that is that puts us at a serious disadvantage because that means we're stuck banning that stage in every set we play, regardless of MUs or preference. I personally think the stage looks cool as hell and I'm all for more legal stages (Lylat should not be getting banned and DL and BF should still be separate) but I shouldn't have to worry about playing or banning a stage that I am quite literally physically unable to play on without feeling the need to throw up. I understand it sucks and I'm possibly ruining it for a lot more people but it's not something I can really help.

 

[my_T]

I beleive it has to be Reverse Parasol. Umeki uses this as well

 

[meticulousboy]

Looks like Peach is doing pretty well so far in 2017. How do you think the meta will change because of her placings?

 

[FeelMeUp]

I beleive it has to be Reverse Parasol. Umeki uses this as well

yeah, it's a reverse parasol for the singlehit, but I had no clue it worked with only a medium amount of rage. Saw him to it to VoiD on stream like 3-4 days ago with max rage and assumed that's what it needed, but with only 100? ridiculous

 

[|RK|]

Wow, Ned really pulled out the W today. Good stuff!

 

[jet56]

https://smash.gg/tournament/gambit-falln/events/wii-u-singles/brackets?filter={"phaseId":114042}

Gambit: Falln (82 entrants)

1st Saiki
2nd AC
3rd SS
4th Felix
5th Strozai (stroder)
5th Wulfn
7th Ollie
7th Falln

Couple things to note:

Falln lost 0-2 to weasel in winners, but later got the runback 3-2. Falln did use ZSS against weasel, to counter his corrin.
Later falln lost to strozai 3-1 in losers, getting 7th.

AC had one hell of a tournament run, eventually getting second place. beat SS, Strozai, and felix, and lost to saiki 3-2 in winners finals (the bracket is incorrect), and 3-0 in grands. he pulled out falco for one game against saiki, and lost.

Strozai took it over falln, using greninja and roy, both thought to be good MU's for rosa.

Saiki wins another large AZ tourney, and once again contributes to the fact that shiek is quite solo viable.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Midwest Mayhem 7 (155 Entrants) (Midwest)

1st: Ned
2nd: Zinoto
3rd: Skorpio
4th: Javi
5th: Ally
5th: Tyroy
7th: Regi
7th: big_mak
9th: Ozone
9th: Seth
9th: Shel
9th: Ryuga
13th: JJROCKETS
13th: Ksev
13th: Renegade
13th: Nero

Chag placed 17th, losing to JTDUNX and Nero

Ned for best NA Cloud? He's the first one to win a notable regional solo afaik.

 

[bc1910]

So are we really pretending UCT is this amazing stage only banned because of motion sickness? I mean, there's a reason it was banned in the first place, and that isn't it.

Fantastic post.

Let's not pretend UCT is some golden saviour of the horrible 4-stage list. The stage is janky as **** regardless of whatever sickness issues it causes. It's only marginally less stupid than Delfino.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Uct encourages camping, it's background is extremely distracting, and it causes motion sickness. I'd prefer Pokémon Stadium 1, skyloft 1, or delfino 1 custom stages to UCTs bottom platform bull****.