Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[verbatim]

i need to see zach or salem play a high level dk before i really comment on the mu of bayo dk.

Salem won 2-1 against Krow in pools at TBH6, he beat his Olimar once and then went 1-1 w/ DK.

 

[|RK|]

With Sheik and Cloud as prevalent as they are? Nope.

All of the nopes.

I mean, you could argue the same about Duck Hunt, but didn't You3 get past two top Clouds recently? And this is a guess, but isn't DH/Cloud worse than Luigi/Cloud? Luigi at least has consistent gimping tools.

As for Sheik... hasn't it been ZeRo's Sheik that gives Luigi the most trouble? While that is the top level of the MU, you just need to be on the other side of the bracket from good Sheik players. Mario gets this lucky reasonably often - no Leo level Marth players or Sonics and you got yourself a clear path. And Sanic is very common at the top level.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

With Sheik and Cloud as prevalent as they are? Nope.

All of the nopes.

You must like to surprise yourself when that doesn't happen.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yeah, you are right guys.

Depending on bracket luck is the very definition of viability and metagame relevance.

And it's not like Luigi has to worry about any other top tiers or the fact that Mario's mobility is a defining factor as to why he has more tournament success then his brother.

 

[G. Stache]

Watched Mr.ConCon vs VoiD to see what happened.

After watching, it was pretty sad.

Mr.ConCon in game 1 was trying to play patient and zone with his fireballs VS sheiks's needles :/. Maybe he was scared of VoiD's punish game and sheik's frame data, but he does more damage per hit, 3 frame Nair whenever he can feel a loose string, and he's heavier. He also hardly ever used Fair or Bair during game 1, which lead him to getting boxed out and thrown into combo strings. Speaking of those, he looked pretty scared in those situations too, air dodging after a throw, which is just Ugh. He was just playing tooooo passive in general.

Game 2 was more assertive of him, which payed in dividends and it showed. He almost won that game (prolly would've had he played this way from game 1 and got the download on more cautious VoiD or sum).

I watched it too, and it was really rough first game. Second game was a lot better...but Void is Void after all. Elegant tends to handle the Sheik MU a lot better than Mr. CC, at least Void's sheik. At the previous MSM (number 78 I think) Elegant had a very close set with Void, almost had the win until Void reversed 3-0d him. But Elegant made every game close except game 5 (where Void destroyed him. Never take Void to Dreamland). Here's the video if anyone wants to watch:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Dw8ZxYdY4yU

I think the more I look at the MU, the more that I think that Luigi HAS to play smart aggression the entire time to get anything started. Elegant tends to play agressive, and that forces Sheik to make mistakes and get hard punished by Luigi's combos (which are extremely good on Shiek). I think another thing that the commentator mentioned in the set with ConCon, and something I agree with, is that Elegant's combos are more refined against Sheiks than ConCon's. At any percent, Elegant seems like he knows exactly what to do against Sheik most of the time. You look at ConCon, and the rare time he gets a grab in this set, he doesn't do as much as Elegant usually does. I won't go into much more detail, and maybe ConCon just had a bad day with hitting his combos (he did look a little shook in general, especially in disadvantage), but overall the way Elegant plays is vital for playing a character like Sheik. You need to force your way into CQC range so you can force Sheik to make mistakes, and the way ConCon played game one just solidifies this. Granted, it's a bad MU for Luigi any way you slice it. Not arguing that. But it goes from looking hopeless to somewhat manageable looking at Elegant's most refined play.

 

[Deleted member]

Vexx's and Fuwa's Marth matchup charts respectively.

@Jamurai brought up how he and Oatmeal believe MK beats Marth, so it's interesting to see two other notable Marths think the same.

i also told you all marth/shulk was even

 

[TDK]

I mean, you could argue the same about Duck Hunt, but didn't You3 get past two top Clouds recently? And this is a guess, but isn't DH/Cloud worse than Luigi/Cloud? Luigi at least has consistent gimping tools.

After Brood and Raito lost to FILIP's Cloud, the three met up and labbed that matchup hardcore until they figured it out, so they're much better able to deal with Clouds.

So while DH vs Cloud is probably worse than DH vs Luigi, I'd say the Japanese DH trio is evenly or better equipped to deal with Clouds than Elegant/Mr. Con Con.

Just my 2 cents though.

Also, random question: Has Jade done anything since CEO? Or is she the first true random to take a set from a big player?

 

[Illusion.]

If Fuwa's chart isn't the ugliest format I've ever seen...

I wish people would just stick to the standard instead of using random numbers. I have no idea what -.2 and +.3 is supposed to mean

 

[NewZen]

With Sheik and Cloud as prevalent as they are? Nope.

All of the nopes.

Dear God, while I do believe that it's possible for a character people don't expect to win a tournament can at least place well enough, this so much.

The Locals that I've attended recently usually have around 10-15 Cloud or about 5+ Sheiks and myriad of other characters in the mix. The thing is, while I have no problem busting out my Luigi to a bunch of Sheiks or Clouds that I hear personify the "For Glory stereotype", I still make it my mission to never bring him (Or my Mega Man) out whenever I know I'm in Top 8-16, because even if I've beaten a lot of noobish Sheik/Cloud mains who only picked them up because, "Muh top-tier easy mode character!", the disadvantages Luigi has against them pretty much means he's not taking anything anytime soon. And this is coming from a Toon main, a character who people see as nothing but cancerous.

 

[ARGHETH]

If Fuwa's chart isn't the ugliest format I've ever seen...

I wish people would just stick to the standard instead of using random numbers. I have no idea what -.2 and +.3 is supposed to mean

I mean, it's essentially just this with Fox/Mewtwo leaning towards losing, Pits/Rosa leaning towards winning, and +0.5 cut in half.

 

[Peppermint1201]

If Fuwa's chart isn't the ugliest format I've ever seen...

I wish people would just stick to the standard instead of using random numbers. I have no idea what -.2 and +.3 is supposed to mean

Yes, how dare she include more detail. what a heinous crime. if only she rounded her matchups to numbers she doesn't actually agree with, that would definitely increase the accuracy of the chart

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Yes, how dare she include more detail. what a heinous crime. if only she rounded her matchups to numbers she doesn't actually agree with, that would definitely increase the accuracy of the chart

As if someone is able to calculate the exact value of every MU in the game in the first place.

 

[ARISTOS]

Yes, how dare she include more detail. what a heinous crime. if only she rounded her matchups to numbers she doesn't actually agree with, that would definitely increase the accuracy of the chart

I disagree.

There is almost no functional difference between winning even (0) and .1. What does that even mean? "This matchup is even because of XYZ, but in this MU my character wins by .00001 because Marth's hair swooshes as he fsmashes."

Keep it simple and standard, if you win put it as winning, a MU put at .1 is just better off being called even.

 

[blackghost]

Salem won 2-1 against Krow in pools at TBH6, he beat his Olimar once and then went 1-1 w/ DK.

thats not on this version. and the fact that ut was 2-1 is very significant since she was prepatch then.

 

[Illusion.]

Yes, how dare she include more detail. what a heinous crime. if only she rounded her matchups to numbers she doesn't actually agree with, that would definitely increase the accuracy of the chart

It's not extra detail, it's using numbers that aren't practical in the sense that nobody knows what they mean. It's confusing and unnecessary for everyone else, especially when there's already a standard that everyone understands.

Just stop.

 

[Nu~]

It's pretty confusing when no one besides her knows how to correctly decipher her thoughts on the matchup difficulty.


I think it would have helped a lot if she explained what those decimals mean matchup-wise.

 

[|RK|]

After Brood and Raito lost to FILIP's Cloud, the three met up and labbed that matchup hardcore until they figured it out, so they're much better able to deal with Clouds.

So while DH vs Cloud is probably worse than DH vs Luigi, I'd say the Japanese DH trio is evenly or better equipped to deal with Clouds than Elegant/Mr. Con Con.

Just my 2 cents though.

I agree with this - you'd need a stronger Luigi player.

And Emblem Lord , Mario usually gets away with it because of bracket luck tbh. As good a player Ally is, Sonic players that play patient, Clouds, and Marths have all proven very detrimental. It's part of the reason he wins EVO one moment and gets 33rd next tournament. If Ally/ANTi were weaker players, we'd be saying the same things about Mario. IDK, maybe trying to look for independent variables behind success is the wrong approach?

 

[Nobie]

Luigi has less of a chance of winning tournaments than the top tiers, but he still has a significant effect on the meta.

He's that monkey wrench that can torpedo a whole lot of characters' chances for making it to the top. There's almost a sadomasochistic quality to Luigi, given how hard he can win and how badly he can lose.

Fox and Mario mains can feel like they're on top of the world, and then Luigi comes along to make life worse.

To quote a certain giant monkey brain: "If I go down I'm taking you with me!!!!"

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Why exactly does Luigi beat Mario?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Why exactly does Luigi beat Mario?

You know how Marth beats Lucina because he gets more reward for doing the same exact thing she's doing? Well its the same thing but with grabs instead of swords

 

[Deleted member]

I mean, if you watched Ally v. Elegant at Abadango Saga, Ally played campy as hell and Elegant couldn't do much. if Mario tried to play the MU any other way of course he'd lose.

 

[ARGHETH]

It's not extra detail, it's using numbers that aren't practical in the sense that nobody knows what they mean. It's confusing and unnecessary for everyone else, especially when there's already a standard that everyone understands.

Just stop.

Standard that everyone understands? Since when have we been able to agree on what +1 or +2 means, exactly?
People agree that +1 is winning and +2 is winning slightly ( or significantly) more, and that's about it.

 

[|RK|]

Why exactly does Luigi beat Mario?

In addition to what Guava said, Luigi's nair is a reaaaaallllyyy good combo break tool. Finally, while his traction makes it difficult for him to follow up, it also makes him difficult to follow up on.

 

[NairWizard]

I'm skeptical of the claim that Luigi beats Fox. Fox is way better in the neutral game and so getting grabs should be fairly difficult for Luigi; in addition, the n-air isn't a big deal for a Fox who is very precise with his spacing, like Larry. Watch ConCon vs. LarryLurr at ZeRo Saga; ConCon takes much more damage from Larry than he deals per neutral exchange.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcUSgbfMVhU&t=137s

Larry is better than ConCon for sure, but focus on Luigi vs. Fox rather than the players' reads; do you notice how deftly Fox outmaneuvers Luigi?

 

[Rizen]

I mean, if you watched Ally v. Elegant at Abadango Saga, Ally played campy as hell and Elegant couldn't do much. if Mario tried to play the MU any other way of course he'd lose.

I saw that and agree to some extent but imo there was a skill difference too. Elegant is an amazing player but Ally is a world class, top 5 player. Ally can make any MU look like it's Mario's favor.


I agree with having a small advantage vs . Link can beat Marth in Link's preferred zoning of run, throw crud and punish. Link has ways to outreach Marth's sword with grab/Zair and can set up stage control. Marth has a slightly longer sword when he gets in and is good at exploiting Link's blindspot of 45 degrees in front and above him. Marth wins at CQC and anything inside his sword reach but it's not like Link can't do anything when Marth's on him. Marth's gimping is bad for Link (anyone have PTSD flashbacks of Marth's Fair, counter and upB offstage?). Link can harass Marth offstage too with projectiles that get past Marth's big sword walls.
As with most Link MUs it ends up being a question of 'who can make the opponent play their preferred game?' and Marth has an easier time at it. On this note, has a slight advantage vs because Luigi must approach and Link has an easier time keeping him out.

 

[Bowserboy3]

@Felicia ✂ - I appreciate your opinions and insights on the Marth:Shulk MU.

What's interesting though, is that both Pugwest and False believe it to be a minor advantage, and a straight up winning MU for Marth respectively.

False: https://twitter.com/fals1fy/status/740923629483986948

Pugwest: https://twitter.com/Pugwest/status/786741022923616257

While False's chart is a little older now, to be fair, not much has changed since then (if anything, MU's have only gotten better). Pugwest's is a little more up to date and finalised.

And on the topic of Meta Knight, False believes it to be just even, while Pugwest believes it to be just a minor advantage to Meta Knight (in fact he believes Marth has no straight up losing MU's anyway), so perhaps not his worst MU, much more an opinionated MU.

To be fair, I never really thought Meta Knight was that bad to be considered one of his absolute worst MU's (but again, I'm not a top player). I don't think it's a winning/advantageous MU for Marth (perhaps even is the best it could get), but I can understand why it can be a bother (no edgeguarding, can be edgeguarded, juggling is hard), but it's still possible to space out and around Meta Knight as in most MU's, and being a light fast faller only makes certain things better for Marth (Dthrow to aerial, linking Dancing Blade tipper kills etc).

Perfect Pivoting back in this MU helps quite a bit (and in general, most MU's, and I thank Leo for showcasing how to utilise PP's effectively with Marth to aid spacing), especially at range when Meta Knight will Dash Attack you. It makes punishing him for doing said move much easier. In fact this is also what makes the Shulk MU a lot easier too from my own experience. Even if Shulk can hit your shield on landing with an aerial, if you PP'd back, he isn't going to be able to follow up/pressure Marth for it, and all it takes is one perfect shield to screw him up. When you consider that Ftilt not only covers Shulk's grounded approaches, but can catch/anti air his aerial approaches too (I mean, this has range; it tippers through Battlefield platforms for god sake [which off topic can be a nice mix up on platforms in unison with Up Tilt, which when conditioned enough a Shield Breaker can be added to break those shields]), these combined with simply PP'ing makes approaching as Shulk a general chore.

But as you say Shulks seem to mindlessly jump, I don't see enough Marth's utilising this well enough either; Leo and False are the only two I've seen do this.

On the topic of PP's for Marth, I really like how Leo plays his edge game; Dtilt to try to catch a 2 frame, then instantly PP back, which gets you simultaneously out of get up attack range, and puts you at a perfect distance to catch rolls behind you on reaction, yet you are still in range to predict a jump get up and catch it with a Nair/Fair. If the opponent does a regular getup or getup attack, you can Jab them, which can confirm to an Ftilt too.

Leo is just so good...

 

[Luigi player]

Why exactly does Luigi beat Mario?

Since this is one of my very often played MUs at a high level I'll try to explain it a bit more in-depth (I've also tried the MU the other way around, playing Mario against Luigi):
vs

Luigis dashgrab is straight out too fast for Mario to handle. Mario has to stay wary of it at all times and keep on moving or doing something, since you can't really react to it. Luigis combos are good against Mario, while Marios combos don't work as well against Luigi (because of frame 3 nair and floatiness). Mario can try to predict nairs, but he can't punish them all the time if Luigi drifts away while doing it. Overall Luigis strong punishes are easier to hit (usmash and bair). Mario doesn't have too much range himself so he has to constantly go near Luigi to damage him, which is a good thing for Luigi. Luigis fair is disjointed, fast and has almost no lag, meaning he will "outbox" Mario in the air/short hop-range often. His fireballs are much more useful, although Mario can try to predict them and cape them back which can discourage mindless use of them.

Mario has a lot of trouble landing against Luigi. Luigi can easily follow up on Marios momentum and cover all landing options with his usmash. This feels like a terrible spot for Mario if he somehow wasted his doublejump. Luigis usmashes really feel like they cover everything if you're playing as Mario, lol.

It's also not impossible for Luigi to read the timing of Marios recovery and gimp him with downB, though it shouldn't happen often since you need to read your opponent.

What Mario does have in the MU, is obviously better mobility in the air, his own good and scary usmash, and his fsmash, which outranges a lot of Luigis stuff. Marios fsmash feels like an important tool in the MU. If you read a dashgrab or a shieldgrab, etc you can step away and fsmash him, which can KO as low as like 80, and even lower at the edge and with rage.

Tbh, it sometimes felt like it could be an even MU to me while playing as Luigi, but more often it felt like I can just outbox Mario more easily, with better jabs as well. And the strong bair to net KOs. If you read his landings and get in a few grabs you just get explosive momentum. Even upB reads aren't out of the question since Mario often has to come close to do something himself.
While playing as Mario it feels really though. You kinda have to play really evasive and try to read and punish Luigis overcommitments, which is difficult because of his lack of range. The problem of landing and fear of getting gimped are always there somewhat, while having trouble comboing Luigi back.

It really does feel disadvantaged overall, though not by too much. +1 for Luigi seems to fit. It's not impossible for Mario to win as we saw, but it can be pretty difficult.

Results overall for american top level may suggest a somewhat even MU though I guess (or dare I say maybe even Marios favor?).


Generally if we're looking at results, Luigis MUs seem pretty shaky.
vs
Elegant losing to Charliedaking drifts the results even more in Fox' favor after Larry beat Concon quite some time ago as well. I'm not sure what the case is there, sadly Elegants game wasn't on stream.
Fox generally feels like a very troublesome character for me personally. Dair always catches me somehow, I get combo'd all over the place, Fox seems to be able to punish almost anything and always has some kind of frametraps or 50:50s. While his jabs dominate at neutral since you can't punish them and have to stay in shield.
I can have a lot of trouble against Fox with Diddy, Mewtwo, Mario... Sonic seems okay, even though it's still difficult. But with Luigi it always feels kinda free. You just get out of combos much more easily and create more like 30:70 scenarios for Fox (advantage for Luigi) when he's trying to combo you. That's what it feels like to me at least. It's hard to get in on Fox sometimes and you aren't allowed to try focusing going for grabs since Fox moves around so quickly and a lot of his stuff is lagless. Jabbing and spacing sh fairs seems like they keep Fox in check though. Usmash covers what Foxes love to do, landing nairs, dairs or maybe even bairs. And then the gimps. Fox really has to feel a lot of fear whenever he is offstage. One read and he can be dead since after he lost his doublejump you can just react to his options and gimp him.

vs
As for Sheik, it doesn't feel like a lost cause for Luigi. She dominates neutral, but what really shifts the MU in her favor is her being able to edgeguard and gimp him if he ever has to use sideB or downB. Bouncing fish is just so strong, fast, causes frametraps and you can't afford to trade with it. And even if Luigi could challenge Sheiks fairs onstage, he is never allowed to use his doublejump or else he could get hit offstage and gimped. Elegant beating Void at one tourney and then losing 2:3 to him is pretty good. Concon generally feels like he has more trouble in the MU. Though Elegant did lose against a canadian Sheik 1:2 at Zero saga iirc?
I'd still really like to see Elegant vs Zero sometime, since he'll most likely go Sheik and with Elegants matchrecord in this MU he could surprise him maybe.

 

[Zelder]

The Mario vs Luigi matchup is like...imagine Mario and Luigi are on a road trip in the back seat, and Mario is playing the "I'm not touching you you can't hit me" game by bair'ing and running away.

It's the perfect example of a matchup that is doable, but the style required is so tedious and irritating for both players, that you might as well just pick Cloud.

That way, the matchup is only irritating for the Luigi player

 

[Ulevo]

The problem with Luigi is the same problem with Meta Knight, and a few other characters. Their metas are not developed because the players playing them are bad.

Mr. ConCon and Elegant are noted as the top Luigis, and that to me demonstrates just how far behind his meta is. When you see the punishes Poke is able to do with the character on a consistent basis, you would assume 'top' players would follow suit. Instead they continue to play the game with strong fundamentals and poor understanding of their characters.

I am not suggesting Luigi is extremely good, but there is a reason why he is not seeing more success, and it is not because he is not capable of breaking through.

 

[Illusion.]

Standard that everyone understands? Since when have we been able to agree on what +1 or +2 means, exactly?

Since Brawl.

 

[L9999]

The problem with Luigi is the same problem with Meta Knight, and a few other characters. Their metas are not developed because the players playing them are bad.

Mr. ConCon and Elegant are noted as the top Luigis, and that to me demonstrates just how far behind his meta is. When you see the punishes Poke is able to do with the character on a consistent basis, you would assume 'top' players would follow suit. Instead they continue to play the game with strong fundamentals and poor understanding of their characters.

I am not suggesting Luigi is extremely good, but there is a reason why he is not seeing more success, and it is not because he is not capable of breaking through.

Yes, Elegant is so bad he came out of nowhere some day and decided to wreck top players with some filthy "mid tier" character. Why not rephrasing it to "the players playing "Y" don't employ "insert X here" to use "Y" to their full potential." Felicia once said something about Shulk that it is better to learn the fundamentals first, gimmicks/extensions second.

 

[Ulevo]

Yes, Elegant is so bad he came out of nowhere some day and decided to wreck top players with some filthy "mid tier" character. Why not rephrasing it to "the players playing "Y" don't employ "insert X here" to use "Y" to their full potential." Felicia once said something about Shulk that it is better to learn the fundamentals first, gimmicks/extensions second.

You talk about Elegant wrecking top players but then turn around and imply he still needs to learn fundamentals. It is pretty evident he has them, and has has them for quite some time. Yet we see no proper progression in his ability to abuse his character. I would also like to add that while fundamentals encompass a broader spectrum of basic game mechanics, learning how to use your punish game for a punish oriented character is about as basic as it gets.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Since Brawl.

Except +1/+2 was never agreed on in Brawl, and still isn't to this day.

For some people +1 means 55:45/very close to even but not quite, to others +1 means 60:40/advantage.

 

[Ulevo]

Why would +1 imply 55:45? 6:4 is a shortened version of 60:40, and saying a match up is +1 implies it is +1 from 5, thus 6:4.

This is very basic and straight forward. No need to complicated it. If you want to say a match up is 55:45, saying +0.5 is fine.

 

[FeelMeUp]

To my knowledge, +1 has always implied 55:45...no one wants to use decimals.
+4 80:20
+3 70:30
+2 60:40
+1 55:45

 

[Rizen]

I'm getting déjà vu. ...again.
"Can we all agree to use the Brawl MU system of: 0 even, +/-1 slight advantage/disadvantage, +/-2 solid advantage/disadvantage, +/-3 Strong advantage/disadvantage or counter-pick, +/-4 realistically unlosable/unwinnable."

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Why would +1 imply 55:45? 6:4 is a shortened version of 60:40, and saying a match up is +1 implies it is +1 from 5, thus 6:4.

This is very basic and straight forward. No need to complicated it. If you want to say a match up is 55:45, saying +0.5 is fine.

To my knowledge, +1 has always implied 55:45...no one wants to use decimals.
+4 80:20
+3 70:30
+2 60:40
+1 55:45

I'm getting déjà vu. ...again.
"Can we all agree to use the Brawl MU system of: 0 even, +/-1 slight advantage/disadvantage, +/-2 solid advantage/disadvantage, +/-3 Strong advantage/disadvantage or counter-pick, +/-4 realistically unlosable/unwinnable."

And thus, I am proven correct.

 

[Fenny]

I don't get why people would think of +1 to be 60:40 in the first place

You'd think that +2's on MU charts were common enough to kinda tip people off that 65:45 MUs and extremer are a bit too uncommon to throw around.

 

[ARISTOS]

To my knowledge, +1 has always implied 55:45...no one wants to use decimals.
+4 80:20
+3 70:30
+2 60:40
+1 55:45

What sense does it make for +1 and +2 being a 5% increase on the previous, but then +3 is a 10% increase? (not attacking you btw)

 

[Yikarur]

+2 is what we considered about 6-4 to 65:35 while +1 is 55:55 to 60:40
The system was never meant to translate from ratios 1:1. It's an entire different system, because ratios are too relative
0 +1 +2 and +3 and +4 translate into the following:
-even
- slight advantage
- advantage
- clear advantage
- There is some close to auto-win button
Those are all you need.
Don't translate directly into ratios.
Using decimals IS NOT CORRECT.
There are no decimals in this system. This system was created to prevent decimals.

People got too conservative with these definitions.
You rarely see +2 match-ups even though a lot of people see +1 as 55:45. This is a contradiction itself, because as Things are right now we'd have like 70% 55:45 MU's in this game which is clearly not the case.