Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Heracr055]

Straying off of the Roy discussion, how does Greninja fare in the current meta? I'm a Ryu main and am getting discouraged by his average movement options, poor projectile, losing in footsies and susceptibility to Focus Attack being nullified by multi-hits. I'm testing Greninja and feel elated by his high jumps, speed and decent-ish projectile in Water Shuriken. I think he's been doing decent since summer of last year, even though he hasn't taken any majors iirc.

 

[Nobie]

One of the problems with discussion here (and perhaps the Smash 4 scene in general) is how character strengths and weaknesses get exaggerated.

As far as I can tell, what usually happens is as follows. A character has a certain trait. In order to emphasize how good/bad it is, people start to use a bit of hyperbole, which is fair. It gets the point across. Then, the hyperbole begins to travel further and further, and like a game of telephone its message gets distorted to the point that people take the hyperbole at face value until it become a supposed "truth." This in turn causes people to defend/downplay the character.

For example, let's take the idea that Sheik has trouble killing. This isn't untrue. While she may have plenty of ways to try and get a kill, and she has some early offstage shenanigans, Sheik still usually needs to read her opponent over and over to kill consistently. Compare this with, say, Mewtwo, who is just armed to the teeth with fair, back throw, up throw, footstool disable, Shadow Ball, etc. etc.

Sheik has to take extra effort killing, but she's no 1111 Brawler (that poor soul). Yet "Sheik has trouble killing" somehow becomes "Sheik can't kill," until it gets repeated over and over until it just gets accepted. The tendency to go to extremes turns what was once a fairly accurate statement into something else entirely.

I think this happens with Roy. In this thread, we've had both Emblem Lord and @Shaya talk about how there's more to Roy than meets the eye, and that he isn't "Sword Falcon." But the stereotype persists that Roy is just Captain Falcon with slightly better range and worse frame data when that's only a half-truth. That's not saying Roy is BETTER than Captain Falcon, but his game plan is more different than you might expect.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

but "spaced" isnt what roy wants to do. those are safe but he needs his opponent to mess up before he can get in. he might as well not even be holding a sword since he gets nothing for using it.

Spacing is not inherently positioning yourself so that your move is as far away from your opponent as possible while still hitting, it's hitting where the move is strongest or most useful at a given moment. Roy still has to space his moves to land his sweet spots and there are situations where he doesn't want to land them. Just because he isn't spacing his attacks like Marth, Sheik, or Cloud doesn't mean he isn't spacing correctly.

Unlike MarCina, Roy requires serious CQC to do any hard damage, so he heavily relies on hard reads. That, along with an inferior air game and recovery, is probably what's keeping him at the border of the bottom.

He has throw combos, a solid nair that allows him space around and poke in neutral, and a good enough jab and dtilt for close range. His advantage state isn't just try and land an fsmash and kill at 60%, it takes more knowledge of when you can do something and what starts those strings when. There's more to it than jab/tilt/throw > aerial repeatedly. When Roy gets in he does damage

I'm aware of the auto-snap, but suppose he somehow goes over. What can he do to save himself?

What you do is you admit that you as a player ****ed up for not snapping to the ledge to begin with, take the punish and hold that L.

 

[The-Technique]

Being punished for the wrong read is specific to Roy?

When you're a character with mostly unsafe options on shield versus any character with decent OOS, combined with a very poor disadvantage state? Yes.

 

[Vyrnx]

We can't sum Roy up by looking only at his disadvantage and his sourspots.

Having things like low FAF aerials means he doesn't leave himself exposed in the air. Compared with Marth, his fair and bair have significantly lower FAF meaning Roy can play freely in the air without big commitment. He has things like SH fair, jumping before hitting the ground, and still using two fairs before hitting the ground. It works out well for a character who can chain fairs or hit with his heavy hitting bair.

Things like real followups off of jab, tech chases off of dtilt, big combos off of nair, and grab followups are really nice things for a sword character.

Roy has the speed and his moves have the startup, power, and faf for him to be threatening and have true traps, great option coverage, and excellent shield pressuring. Safe shield pressuring is something a sword character wants, and Roy definitely doesn't fail there.

As far as sourspots go, Roy has good range and the opponent's goal is obviously going to be to not get hit by those even if they are weak, so if they are shielding or otherwise avoiding those sourspots as they should be, then that's effective spacing. That brings up two things, the first being that Roy's sourspots still have followup potential, still do damage, and still give him the stage, and secondly that if the argument is that he doesn't get enough reward off of them, well, they are sourspots. Really big reward is what his sweetspots are for. And luckily he can space sweetspots out as well and he's going to land them during the match. So we need to get past the assumption that Roy is a poor character because of his sourspots and the idra that he may as well just not have a sword.

 

[Nu~]

So vex() just went 2-1 over Pink Fresh () at Xanadu.

Woah. DK looked lethal

 

[NairWizard]

Evaluating any character comes down to a game of numbers, with two questions to be posed:

1) Does the character have a way to land and avoid hits? (commonly referred to as neutral, but more general than that, don't get caught up in fighting game jargon and forget what we're really talking about)

This comes down to either

a) having enough fast mixups and mobility to constantly surprise your opponent with new options

or

b) having enough disjoint and range, along with movement options, to set up situations where you can react to an opponent's option safely

Characters who are good at both a) and b) like Diddy and Sheik are ++ in this category
Characters who have a lot of mixups like Fox are + in this category
Characters who have a lot of disjoint and the means to abuse it like Cloud are also + in this category

2) Does the character get enough reward on his hits relative to the damage he takes when he gets hit? (advantage vs. disadvantage)

Characters like ZSS and Bayonetta with good disadvantage states (including recovery, ledge getup options, etc.) and high reward are usually ++ in this category
Characters like Fox are usually just + in this catgory because they get wrecked almost as hard as they wreck others.



Roy's good at 1) above. He's a swordsman just like all the other swordsmen; he has plenty of range and disjoint to play a safe, reactionary, spacing-based neutral game. Roy's problem is 2). He gets reward, but it's not nearly enough reward to compensate for what happens when he gets trashed.

 

[Chalice]

I don't think a character like who can pretty much get one grab and get a 30-50% combo on a lot of the cast is low tier. Said throw combos also lead to stage control and edge guard situations. has an ass recovery and has no kill confirms when not in Limit and has to get a read/good positioning with Uair and Bair to kill.

Roy's anything not including Smash attacks kills and reasonable percents. Also I've yet to see Roy players utilize more aerial mix ups with B-reversed Neutral Bs since that stuff is safe on shield and that method of going forward then drifting backward with Side-B.

When in any top level matches has Roy been consistently gimped? As far as I know, none compared to Cloud who we have seen been gimped consistently in many top level matches.

We say he gets combo'd to hell. Well, so does Fox and Falcon: Combo others and hard and get combo'd hard.

I think players tend to focus too hard on his sweet spot being close to him and it creates this mindset opposite from Marth: "The strong part of my sword is the tip. I'll stay far away!" Well, Marth's sour spots lead into tippers and combos.

"The strong part of my sword is near the base. Yolo imma go in hard!" Well, you still have range that makes you safe on shield and the middle of the sword, not the base which is also almost as strong anyway, is also safe on shield. Again, those tipper sour spots lead to bad situations for the opponent, which are tech chases. I think that pretty much means at high percent, if you get hit by hit sour spots, you'll potentially get killed. Of course, you are focusing more on his sweet spot which kills at anytime at high percents.

Just some thoughts

 

[Das Koopa]

Vex Kasrani just kinda rolled everybody at Xanadu

 

[|RK|]

So vex() just went 2-1 over Pink Fresh () at Xanadu.

Woah. DK looked lethal

And now 2-0 in GFs. RIP. Never even heard of this dude before he came in tonight lol

 

[Nu~]

And now 2-0 in GFs. RIP. Never even heard of this dude before he came in tonight lol

He was a brawl legend. Just doesn't travel much in smash 4

 

[blackghost]

i need to see zach or salem play a high level dk before i really comment on the mu of bayo dk.
i think bayo should just zone the entire game but maybe im wrong. either way if bayo dirs at 70 from a grab the mu wont ever stop being volatile

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Isn't that the vex from back in brawl?


EDIT: nvm. Speaking of smash legends, what happened to boss?

 

[|RK|]

He was a brawl legend. Just doesn't travel much in smash 4

Yeesh, how many random Brawl legends are gonna decide to turn up late in Smash 4 lol

Isn't that the vex from back in brawl?


EDIT: nvm. Speaking of smash legends, what happened to boss?

Boss returned to his home planet.

...He competes at the Cave now, iirc.

 

[my_T]

i need to see zach or salem play a high level dk before i really comment on the mu of bayo dk.
i think bayo should just zone the entire game but maybe im wrong. either way if bayo dirs at 70 from a grab the mu wont ever stop being volatile

Try looking up Ikep vs HIKARU. Both players are quite good

 

[Deleted member]

Mega Smash Mondays 79 (SoCal | 201 entrants)

1) VoiD
2) Rich Brown
3) Charliedaking
4) Nicko
5) Ant
5) SaSSy
7) Mr. ConCon
7) Elegant
9) Aarvark
9) Das
9) Scizor
9) K9sbruce
13) NotLast
13) XYosher
13) Razo
13) Sura

 

[TDK]

When did SoCal get Peaches?

 

[Das Koopa]

SlayerZ and NotLast have been around forever

 

[SaltyKracka]

When did SoCal get Peaches?

What part of 'most populous state in the nation' do you not get?

 

[TDK]

SlayerZ and NotLast have been around forever

I knew SlayerZ but I've never heard of Razo or NotLast.

What part of 'most populous state in the nation' do you not get?

Your state has more people in it than my country.

 

[meticulousboy]

Glad to see Peach in top 16. I guess her meta is being developed, but at a gradual rate. Hopefully more of them are floating below the ledge to edgeguard instead of near it.

 

[ARGHETH]

I knew SlayerZ but I've never heard of Razo or NotLast.

IDK about Razo, but NotLast is in NorCal for most of the year.

 

[Yonder]

Mega Smash Mondays 79 (SoCal | 201 entrants)

1) VoiD
2) Rich Brown
3) Charliedaking
4) Nicko
5) Ant
5) SaSSy
7) Mr. ConCon
7) Elegant
9) Aarvark
9) Das
9) Scizor
9) K9sbruce
13) NotLast
13) XYosher
13) Razo
13) Sura

The two best Luigi players placing both at 7th. Never makes the "which one is the actual best" debate any easier. Incidentally, 7th is a common spot for Luigi.

Cause he'll never, ever get first in a tourney it appears.

 

[SaltyKracka]

The two best Luigi players placing both at 7th. Never makes the "which one is the actual best" debate any easier. Incidentally, 7th is a common spot for Luigi.

Cause he'll never, ever get first in a tourney it appears.

"Pardon me whilst I cry about playing a character who can actually place in tournaments"

 

[Bowserboy3]

Fuwa's (best Japanese Marth, ranked 20th on Japanese PR) Marth MU chart:

https://twitter.com/fuwa_sui/status/816478195092320256

Interesting to see how different Marth opinions differ. This has a lot more opinions similar to my own (Cloud/Bayonetta being even, Dedede being at least even etc).

Though some are still questionable to me. I think Ike and Shulk's placements are a couple of notable questionable ones, but Shulk I am open to a bit more leeway on. I don't see what makes Marth:Ike even however. If anything, I'd say it's still a minor advantage for Marth (when you consider Marth's spacing tools vs Ike's spacing tools, and also that Countering Aether is very much a nasty thing). Bowser really isn't THAT bad, not from my experience; likely blew out of proportion thanks to Nairo v Mr E. Certainly not DK levels of bad (which even then I personally feel isn't as bad as it once was; perhaps a very minor loss at worst IMO, likely even [remember this is just my opinion - I ain't the top player here]).

Speaking of DK, that's still interesting to see, considering Pugwest thinks that MU is at worst even; in fact I'm pretty sure he thinks it's a minor advantage for Marth. It's not like he has no ground to stand on with that opinion either: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fVO76bKOyY

That said, Hikaru might have some influence on both DK and Bowser's placements overall.

 

[bc1910]

Straying off of the Roy discussion, how does Greninja fare in the current meta? I'm a Ryu main and am getting discouraged by his average movement options, poor projectile, losing in footsies and susceptibility to Focus Attack being nullified by multi-hits. I'm testing Greninja and feel elated by his high jumps, speed and decent-ish projectile in Water Shuriken. I think he's been doing decent since summer of last year, even though he hasn't taken any majors iirc.

Ryu is a strong footsies character. The only characters he struggles against in this aspect are those with swords. If that's one of your main issues you could ask some other Ryu players for tips. Not trying to be patronising - just a suggestion. The other weaknesses you mentioned are fair game.

Greninja is currently 17th/13th (Top 16/Top 8 respectively) on Das Koopa 's scoring project. He's a fair bit below the top 12 in terms of his scoring but ranks well in the next group of characters. He fares reasonably well in the current meta. People love to say "oh, but he hasn't done anything at a major" which isn't fair since his best players don't travel, nor are his best players on par with the best players of the characters above and around him (top 12 goes without saying and you have people like Ranai and Kame repping Villy and Mega Man).

His biggest issue is losing hard to Sheik, with less-than-ideal MUs against Cloud, Sonic, Diddy and IMO Rosalina. He doesn't really lose to anyone below the top 10 but a fair few of the top tiers give him trouble and there are plenty of even-ish high tier MUs he can lose.

The focus should be on labbing and improving his top tier MUs. The Sheik MU might be a lost cause though, and that alone means he won't be solo-ing any majors. Still, he's a fun character to use and should serve you well against all but the cream of the crop, where he's not useless but generally fighting uphill battles.

 

[Deleted member]

Marth is pretty close to even for Shulk. Slight loss at the absolute worst. If the Shulk has a good ground game then he should be able to do well against Marth in neutral. So many Shulks mindlessly jump against Marth and it's what gets them swatted in the air over and over.

Shulk is able to catch Marth's landings pretty well and Marth has to respect your spacing game a fair amount due to Shulk obviously outclassing him in range. Both characters edgeguard each other fairly hard though and CQC is definitely a problem for Shulk due to the silliness that's Marth's jab and DB but otherwise in my experience I've never had significant issue against Marth.

Nicko's advice on the MU improved my play in it greatly. There's also the fact that Shulk in Speed Art has the fastest walk in the game.

 

[Fenny]

So many Shulks mindlessly jump against Marth and it's what gets them swatted in the air over and over.

I can attest to this

I've fought too many Shulks, even Shulks on the better end, who try to autocancel Nair like their life depends on it

 

[Deleted member]

I can attest to this

I've fought too many Shulks, even Shulks on the better end, who try to autocancel Nair like their life depends on it

Nair doesn't even autocancel. It just has extremely low landing lag (10 frames) which makes it seem like it does. Fair is the only aerial of his with an autocancel window and it's 3 frames before his fullhop air time ends.

 

[FeelMeUp]

VoiD always dominates MSM when he's in attendance. Nothing new here.

Missing the point.
He has never played this well before.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIdC6JLAg7c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCILagT6Bk8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3M3mxisijc
https://youtu.be/9sMNX3KAjEc
The game against Ant was especially bad. Dude used 3 handfuls of Sheik tech in one game, showcasing movement options and combos that people have never done before.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ryu is a strong footsies character. The only characters he struggles against in this aspect are those with swords. If that's one of your main issues you could ask some other Ryu players for tips. Not trying to be patronising - just a suggestion. The other weaknesses you mentioned are fair game.

Greninja is currently 17th/13th (Top 16/Top 8 respectively) on Das Koopa 's scoring project. He's a fair bit below the top 12 in terms of his scoring but ranks well in the next group of characters. He fares reasonably well in the current meta. People love to say "oh, but he hasn't done anything at a major" which isn't fair since his best players don't travel, nor are his best players on par with the best players of the characters above and around him (top 12 goes without saying and you have people like Ranai and Kame repping Villy and Mega Man).

His biggest issue is losing hard to Sheik, with less-than-ideal MUs against Cloud, Sonic, Diddy and IMO Rosalina. He doesn't really lose to anyone below the top 10 but a fair few of the top tiers give him trouble and there are plenty of even-ish high tier MUs he can lose.

The focus should be on labbing and improving his top tier MUs. The Sheik MU might be a lost cause though, and that alone means he won't be solo-ing any majors. Still, he's a fun character to use and should serve you well against all but the cream of the crop, where he's not useless but generally fighting uphill battles.

Footsies is so much more then just buttons.

And I agree. Ryu is a footsie character in a game where many of the cast can play footsies and never commit.

Not a good fit.

 

[Piipp]

VoiD always dominates MSM when he's in attendance. Nothing new here.

The fact that he won a 201 man tournament without dropping a game is definitely something new if we aren't counting ZeRo at EVO 2015.

And VoiD doesn't always win MSM though he does win a majority of them. But even then, winning a SoCal tournament this big without dropping a game is very impressive, even for a top player.

 

[|RK|]

i need to see zach or salem play a high level dk before i really comment on the mu of bayo dk.
i think bayo should just zone the entire game but maybe im wrong. either way if bayo dirs at 70 from a grab the mu wont ever stop being volatile

From what Jtails says, Vex and Salem practice often. So this may well be a decent example... and an explanation of the result.

 

[|RK|]

Marth is pretty close to even for Shulk. Slight loss at the absolute worst. If the Shulk has a good ground game then he should be able to do well against Marth in neutral. Everyone mindlessly jumps against Marth and it's what gets them swatted in the air over and over.

Fixed that for you

But yeah, Dabuz gave similar advice about large hitboxes in general. Walkkkkkkk

 

[HoSmash4]

EC has too many strong brawl talents. Vexx, Fatal, Atomsk, Shadow, ADHD... Regions of killers

 

[Das Koopa]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/5m0pyo/orionrank_top_100_8071/

80-71 up. Year retrospective coming soon~

 

[Yonder]

"Pardon me whilst I cry about playing a character who can actually place in tournaments"

Um, I wasn't crying at all. I'm simply stating an observation about Luigi which shows, after a lengthy period of time, he is incapable of achieving 1st in any form of tournament.

Can he place top 8 in one? For sure, even at regional and major levels. But a solo Luigi will never, ever get first. Same goes for all but maybe the top 10-12. Then there's another option of the cast, let's say top 20-25 that can get top 8 at any level of play. They will never get first. This is what I think consists of our upper mid/bottom high echelon of characters.

I mean, I apologize if the character you main, whoever that is can't place in any format of play in the top 8 (Basically bottom tiers, low tiers like Mac can get top 8 at locals or top 16 at regionals at best mostly) but that's not my problem...

I know Luigi can't win in higher levels of play. I acknowledge it. Do I cry about it as you so tried to paraphrase me? **** No, i play on FG and the occasional local once in a blue moon for fun. And my best is top 8 at locals sometimes. I'll neve get first. And that's ok because I still love this game and playing Luigi.

Now if I wanted to increase my chances of winning 1st, I'd play Mewtwo a bit more. He's my co main, and has proven time and time again, on average, he is usually hovering around 2nd place finishings in 200+ events and guaranteed top 5-8 in majors. He can get first with MAJOR dedication from Abadango . But even that is tough. Until Mewtwo starts abusing infinites, as visible in the last major crew battle. He's a very viable force edged out by Diddys, Sheik, a few others for constant 1st place finishings.

 

[|RK|]

Solo Luigi could probably place first depending on bracket, no? Same as solo Mario. Just need a good enough player.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

The two best Luigi players placing both at 7th. Never makes the "which one is the actual best" debate any easier. Incidentally, 7th is a common spot for Luigi.

Cause he'll never, ever get first in a tourney it appears.

Watched Mr.ConCon vs VoiD to see what happened.

After watching, it was pretty sad.

Mr.ConCon in game 1 was trying to play patient and zone with his fireballs VS sheiks's needles :/. Maybe he was scared of VoiD's punish game and sheik's frame data, but he does more damage per hit, 3 frame Nair whenever he can feel a loose string, and he's heavier. He also hardly ever used Fair or Bair during game 1, which lead him to getting boxed out and thrown into combo strings. Speaking of those, he looked pretty scared in those situations too, air dodging after a throw, which is just Ugh. He was just playing tooooo passive in general.

Game 2 was more assertive of him, which payed in dividends and it showed. He almost won that game (prolly would've had he played this way from game 1 and got the download on more cautious VoiD or sum).

 

[Emblem Lord]

Solo Luigi could probably place first depending on bracket, no? Same as solo Mario. Just need a good enough player.

With Sheik and Cloud as prevalent as they are? Nope.

All of the nopes.