Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Deleted member]

He got 127th overall. A lot of New England's contenders (besides Awesum lmao 4th lowest score) where one big set win away from breaking the Top 100. Look forward to Pugwest and Marss, at least.

Nicko making it into top 100 is pretty rad.

With him picking Marth back up as a comain I wonder how farther he'll go.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

So he has pretty good grab range? His dash grab is pretty trash though and shouldn't be used too much.
I'd say he's better at getting grabs than DK.

And the comments on the poor traction or out of shield game seem a bit "eh".
His 4f jab is pretty good (oos).
You can't reliably cross over him because that's up smash/up-b fodder.
11f dash to shield is solid for his dash specs, also a 10f skid which is on the lower end of the cast. You'd be surprised what the gliding animation allows him to avoid "for an extra frame than a character would otherwise usually have to deal with" (both high and low) while running in for power shields.

I'd say Charizard excels at "traditional" neutral (he fits within the sword fighter archetype) compared to other heavyweights, but Bowser is probably still overall better because the amount of respect grab necessitates and his obscene reaching forward in his attack animations.
Charizard has a wide array of "trump" moves that beat things with reads that give sizable reward, I'd say these are slightly more reliable and rewarding than bowser/DK.
But in terms of advantage he doesn't really have anything special, it comes down purely to succeeding with his trump moves.
What makes him special in disadvantage is flare blitz - this thing allows the ****** to never die / usually be ungimpable past mid percent off stage. This "boon" to his overall disadvantage state is likely the biggest part to what makes him remotely an okay pick and not just being trapped between a weaker hitting faster moving ganondorf.

I would actually put rock smash in there when it comes to surviving, the super armor on that move is obscene. Flare blitz meanwhile unless you're lined up with the edge just right you bounce off for a punish and if you hit a counter move or shield you die, pfft scratch that if you hit ANYTHING you die because zard bounces up if he misses the stage edge and grabbing it with flare blitz is seriously unintuitive (I once used flare blitz in the exact position I knew would grab the edge, he instead bounced off, I got punished and died)

 

[TDK]

He got 127th overall. A lot of New England's contenders (besides Awesum lmao 4th lowest score) where one big set win away from breaking the Top 100. Look forward to Pugwest and Marss, at least.

If this isn't too much to ask, after the full thing is done could we see the remaining people's scores, please? I'd be interested in it, at least.

 

[Aaron1997]

https://www.twitch.tv/2ggaming

Well this is Unexpected.... MSM has 200 entrants

 

[Das Koopa]

https://www.twitch.tv/2ggaming

Well this is Unexpected.... MSM has 200 entrants

This will be the first documented January tourney once I get the database set up for it. FinalBoss , Vermillion , X , Q and FuTure are all in attendance, so it attracted out-of-state people.

Update: Q > K9 .

 

[Aaron1997]

YAS finally something great happened for Pacman. Q better keep it up, Pac's need this right now

 

[Dre89]

While I strongly disagree that Charizard is better than the allegedly garbage but still viable DK, our 'Zard does have a vertical recovery, a projectile in Flamethrower and Rock Smash, a faster Fair, and a more reliable Nair, all of which DK lacks. Charizard's High-Low tier at worst, but to call him better than DK is ridiculous.

Vertical recovery isn't important after low percents because you can DI upward and use your horizontal recovery to mix up between recovering above or below stage. Pretty much every character with a purely vertical recovery is considered easily gimpable (Link, Mario, Falcon etc.). You're almost always forced to go below stage because using a vertical recovery to recover above stage is normally a very punishable option.

DK's upb hitbox has massive horizontal range and is frame 4, so it's extremely difficult to gimp a DK that mixes up where he recovers unless you have a counter or a massive disjoint like a sword.

 

[TDK]

I know seeing Brood, Raito, and You3 all coming overseas is exciting (It is for me too), but this isn't Raito's first overseas tournament. He got 49th at EVO 2016, though I'm not sure who he lost to.

So while it's exciting, don't go crazy yet.

 

[Rizen]

Every time someone says Link has an easily gimpable recovery a puppy dies.

Charizard's problem is his neutral and most of his gameplay rely on punishes and defense. His thick head protruding in front all the time hurts his offensive options. Dash grab would be good without that. A lot of Charizard's forward attack reach is negated if you consider how far his head sticks out in normal stance and movement. Piggy-backing on what Shaya said, Charizard has strong punishes like Flare blitz and flame thrower is a great edge guarder. He has a good grab game, jab and good OoS options. But all these depend on the opponent engaging him. If the opponent zones and doesn't commit Charizard is very vulnerable when advancing. Flare blitz is strictly for punishes and recoveries and not a burst movement option like bouncing fish. Unlike DK and Bowser, Charizard doesn't get arm, leg or tail intangibility. Charizard lacks their offensive pokes and pressure, although his defensive aspects are great.

Charizard's landing tools like rock-smash armor and disadvantage are weakened where platforms are in play. Landing on BF is hell. Not that it's a cakewalk for DK but I want to stress Char's stage weakness are worse. DK's good airspeed and Bair help him reach platforms and traverse stages like DH and SV more easily. The argument that Charizard has a better disadvantage state (which I agree with) is lessened by certain stages.

My overall point is, Charizard's pros are rigid and not as flexible as DK or Bowser's.

 

[Luco]

Every time someone says Link has an easily gimpable recovery a puppy dies.

Watching @Shaya continuously Marth counter a Link's upB about half a dozen times until the guy finally died was one of the most depressing and simultaneously wondrous days of my life.

I think that day several puppies died - alone and miserable.

 

[Rizen]

Watching @Shaya continuously Marth counter a Link's upB about half a dozen times until the guy finally died was one of the most depressing and simultaneously wondrous days of my life.

I think that day several puppies died - alone and miserable.

To be fair Marth destroys 95% of the cast in that position.

PS
did you know 83% of all statistics are made up?

 

[bc1910]

What makes him special in disadvantage is flare blitz - this thing allows the ****** to never die / usually be ungimpable past mid percent off stage. This "boon" to his overall disadvantage state is likely the biggest part to what makes him remotely an okay pick and not just being trapped between a weaker hitting faster moving ganondorf.

This.

Charizard has a real, functional, actually-kind-of-scary disadvantage state. He and Bowser are the first characters of their archetype to have this, and Bowser's strong OoS options are only functional on the ground.

Admittedly you can argue Zard's disadvantage state is only functional in the air. Thing is, a functional aerial disadvantage state is a big deal for characters who are designed to hit hard then get juggled to death. Charizard can actually land. And recover. Whilst platforms might hurt his cause, I don't think Charizard has a less functional disadvantage than DK on BF. And don't forget he gains early cheese kills with Uthrow.

His OoS options are poor, but still better than a lot of the characters around him. It's not a complete exaggeration to say that Charizard's Nair alone is better than almost all the OoS options of the characters that tend to surround him in tier lists.

Is DK better? Maybe. I don't think it matters much. I don't believe DK is garbage (aspects of his design are "horrible" though) but I don't believe either DK or Charizard are truly viable. For my own part, I would rather fight a powerhouse who gets kills at 70 from a grab but has bar none the worst ledge return and maybe the worst disadvantage in the game, than a powerhouse who kills later but gets multiple chances to swing the match back in his favour.

 

[Das Koopa]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/5ls5b1/orionrank_top_100_9081/

90-81 up, database will be fully updated by tonight.

 

[Rizen]

His OoS options are poor, but still better than a lot of the characters around him. It's not a complete exaggeration to say that Charizard's Nair alone is better than almost all the OoS options of the characters that tend to surround him in tier lists.

I would rather fight a powerhouse who gets kills at 70 from a grab but has bar none the worst ledge return and maybe the worst disadvantage in the game,

Why would Charizard frame 7 jump+9 Nair when he can OoS USmash frame 7 or UpB with armor starting 4?

Eh, DK's disadvantage is bad but there's always Mac lol. ROB might also have a worse disadvantage.

 

[Deleted member]

I would argue King Dedede has the worst disadvantage from what I played.

 

[|RK|]

Roy still exists

King Dedede at least has a good recovery despite poor defense against juggles.

 

[Deleted member]

Roy still exists

King Dedede at least has a good recovery despite poor defense against juggles.

Sadly, Roy is still highly underrated...

Super Dedede Jump, despite being a good recovery, is very easy to see coming, so anyone with a counter (, , and especially) can punish the penguin king. Plus, even if King Dedede cancels the stomp part, unless he somehow hits a ledge, he's gonna get caught.

 

[bc1910]

Why would Charizard frame 7 jump+9 Nair when he can OoS USmash frame 7 or UpB with armor starting 4?

Eh, DK's disadvantage is bad but there's always Mac lol. ROB might also have a worse disadvantage.

Because Usmash's hitbox doesn't cover in front of him well enough and Up B is extremely risky.

Nair is a little sluggish but is safe, rewarding and covers very important space. His OoS isn't good, it's just that Nair (and Up B and Usmash in certain situations) is a better option than you'd expect from a low tier heavy.

Mac's counter alone gives him more options than DK specifically while being juggled, though his disadvantage is likely worse overall due to his non-recovery. ROB's isn't worse, his aerials are slow but they have fantastic hitboxes and his recovery is at least long-distance. He can airdodge whenever he wants as well. Ledge return isn't as bad as DK's thanks to having an actual Fair. Nair helps too.

 

[Deleted member]

Is there even a use for DK's extremely risky fair?

 

[SJMistery]

Eeeh, DK's Up-B isn't incredibly vulnerable to spikes, especially stall-then-fall Dairs? I personally would always choose Fly due to armor over Spinning Tornado...

 

[adom4]

Is there even a use for DK's extremely risky fair?

It's a good option after cargo throw at low %, does a lot of damage.

 

[Dre89]

Eeeh, DK's Up-B isn't incredibly vulnerable to spikes, especially stall-then-fall Dairs? I personally would always choose Fly due to armor over Spinning Tornado...

Not after low percents. As I said before, you DI upward and then mix up between recovering above or below stage. Upb is frame 4 and has massive horizontal range so it'll beat anything that isn't a counter or a massive disjoint like a sword.

Is there even a use for DK's extremely risky fair?

It's used for mid-percent grab combos, usually on heavier characters because it'll often put lighter characters past kill percent (although you can do it at lower percents on floatier characters).

It's pretty good for covering your return to the stage with it's massive arching hitbox, because by the time the animation is finished you can snap to the ledge to avoid punishment.

It can also be used for cheeze low-percent spikes like dash attack near the ledge- fair. Or jump cargo-D throw near the the ledge-fair.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Pretty much every character with a purely vertical recovery is considered easily gimpable (Link, Mario, Falcon etc.).

Link has a tether and bombs to help him get back, Falcon has his own mix ups to help him back (see Fatality's recoveries), and Mario has a frame 3, intangible, disjointed, multi-hit up special and amazing air speed. He's pretty good at making it back and I wouldn't say Mario is easily gimpable in the slightest.

Sadly, Roy is still highly underrated...

Super Dedede Jump, despite being a good recovery, is very easy to see coming, so anyone with a counter (, , and especially) can punish the penguin king. Plus, even if King Dedede cancels the stomp part, unless he somehow hits a ledge, he's gonna get caught.

He can snap to the ledge whilst being very deep off stage and he has the weight of a planet so he's gonna live for a long time against most characters. You can't just auto counter his recovery, because he shouldn't be trying to land on stage like that to begin with.
If you're playing as Dedede and you try to land on the stage with the up b stomp then frankly you deserve to be punished by any character.

Also Roy's disadvantage is trash, saying that isn't underrating him, it's telling the truth.
If I had a dollar for every time someone in this thread says a character is underrated, well **** I'd have a lot of money.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Vertical recovery isn't important after low percents because you can DI upward and use your horizontal recovery to mix up between recovering above or below stage. Pretty much every character with a purely vertical recovery is considered easily gimpable (Link, Mario, Falcon etc.). You're almost always forced to go below stage because using a vertical recovery to recover above stage is normally a very punishable option.

DK's upb hitbox has massive horizontal range and is frame 4, so it's extremely difficult to gimp a DK that mixes up where he recovers unless you have a counter or a massive disjoint like a sword.

Um, doesn't tether count as horizontal recovery for Link? You can reel in immediately rather than Tarzan beneath.

 

[FeelMeUp]

VoiD played like the best player in the world at MSM 79.
Ban .

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Sadly, Roy is still highly underrated...

Roy isn't underrated, hes just bad. He lacks the autocancels and finishers to be played as a brawler and he lacks the range and safety to be played like a swordie. The only thing he has going for him is his advantage state which still pales in comparison to similar characters like Captain Falcon and Cloud

 

[Crimson Avenger]

I'm seeing people saying that Zard has better landing options than DK but what are those better options? Nair has a lot of landing lag and rock smash has a lot of startup and ending lag( 24 frames startup,44 frames ending lag ). Zard's horrible airspeed doesn't help with landing either. DK has better airspeed and a fast Bair to aid his landings.

DK is better than Zard by a decent margin imo. Zard has a slightly better disadvantage(gets off the ledge more easily and has a slightly better oos game). However DK has a better neutral( DK's tilts are better than Zards in speed and usefulness in general and Bair is also better than most of Zard's aerials) and a much better advantage(way more reward off of grab).

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Roy isn't underrated, hes just bad. He lacks the autocancels and finishers to be played as a brawler and he lacks the range and safety to be played like a swordie. The only thing he has going for him is his advantage state which still pales in comparison to similar characters like Captain Falcon and Cloud

Low lag and solid shield safety on attacks like spaced Fair, Nair, Ftilt, and Dtilt allow him to play as a swordfighter just fine.

 

[blackghost]

Low lag and solid shield safety on attacks like spaced Fair, Nair, Ftilt, and Dtilt allow him to play as a swordfighter just fine.

but "spaced" isnt what roy wants to do. those are safe but he needs his opponent to mess up before he can get in. he might as well not even be holding a sword since he gets nothing for using it.

 

[williamsga555]

D3's disadvantage is generally over exaggerated (well, except for his ledge getup and OOS options. Both are trash). His ability to land, while not great, is a lot better than most would think. Multijumps+ridiculous fast fall speed+scary aerial (bair) or command grab mixup means that he actually has a lot of ways to throw off anti-air pressure.

Also, despite the big body and fastfall speed, his weirdly low gravity helps him escape from true juggles more often than one would expect.

That all being said...his disadvantage is definitely still bad, but it's not some roaring dumpster fire like he's typically chalked up as having. That distinction would belong to both his neutral and on-stage advantage states. Those are both bottom 3 material, easy.

Super Dedede Jump, despite being a good recovery, is very easy to see coming, so anyone with a counter (, , and especially) can punish the penguin king. Plus, even if King Dedede cancels the stomp part, unless he somehow hits a ledge, he's gonna get caught.

You know SDJ auto-snaps the ledge on the ascent, right? It also has no hitbox going upwards, so there's nothing that would trigger a counter in normal situations. D3 should almost never go beyond the ledge when recovering with up-b, unless he's praying that his spacing was perfect for an instant-stomp (which is incredibly lethal, granted, but stupidly difficult to space correctly and risky to attempt, as he has no super armor at that point) or if he catches the opponent committing to something dumb (like charging a down smash mad early for a 2-frame).

 

[Deleted member]

Unlike MarCina, Roy requires serious CQC to do any hard damage, so he heavily relies on hard reads. That, along with an inferior air game and recovery, is probably what's keeping him at the border of the bottom.

You know SDJ auto-snaps the ledge on the ascent, right? It also has no hitbox going upwards, so there's nothing that would trigger a counter in normal situations. D3 should almost never go beyond the ledge when recovering with up-b, unless he's praying that his spacing was perfect for an instant-stomp (which is incredibly lethal, granted, but stupidly difficult to space correctly and risky to attempt, as he has no super armor at that point) or if he catches the opponent committing to something dumb (like charging a down smash mad early for a 2-frame).

I'm aware of the auto-snap, but suppose he somehow goes over. What can he do to save himself?

 

[Vyrnx]

Roy is my pick for most underrated character despite his disadvantage state because of things like his speed, short hop, shield pressure/safety, pokes, grab game, damage conversions, frame traps off fair, etc. His damage:startup ratio on hilt hits is among the best in the game (and a lot of those moves happen to be safe on shield as well).

Sadly, Roy is still highly underrated...

Unlike MarCina, Roy requires serious CQC to do any hard damage, so he heavily relies on hard reads. That, along with an inferior air game and recovery, is probably what's keeping him at the border of the bottom.

This is the second time you've contradicted yourself...

 

[arbustopachon]

I'm seeing people saying that Zard has better landing options than DK but what are those better options? Nair has a lot of landing lag and rock smash has a lot of startup and ending lag( 24 frames startup,44 frames ending lag ). Zard's horrible airspeed doesn't help with landing either. DK has better airspeed and a fast Bair to aid his landings.

DK is better than Zard by a decent margin imo. Zard has a slightly better disadvantage(gets off the ledge more easily and has a slightly better oos game). However DK has a better neutral( DK's tilts are better than Zards in speed and usefulness in general and Bair is also better than most of Zard's aerials) and a much better advantage(way more reward off of grab).

Nair has a good auto cancel window, fair quickly covers zard front, dair is heavily disjointed, zard has an extra jump to fake people with, his airdodge is frame 3, Zard's rocksmash grants him armor on frame 5 allowing him to contest juggles better, Zard has access to flamethrower which, while slow, forces some characters to let Zard land and it can be wavebounced and b reversed for mixups and both Dk and Zard have the same air accel so in short distances Dk's superior top air speed doesn't matter.

Whiffing a juggle near an airborne Zard in general is scary due to how relatively early fair, bair and fly kill.

I think Dk's better than Zard, but that's because he kills you at 70% of a grab.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Low lag and solid shield safety on attacks like spaced Fair, Nair, Ftilt, and Dtilt allow him to play as a swordfighter just fine.

Except there's nothing to fear when you get hit by those attacks. Marth is as good as he is because those safe pokes kill or combo into kill moves. What is there to fear about a tipper Roy anything?

 

[The-Technique]

Yeah unfortunately Roy isn't that good, save for the random even-ish top tier matchup like against Mewtwo.

Not to say Roy is completely bad, he converts a lot of damage off from landing just one hit, plus he has decent kill options, but he's a very read based character. When you make the wrong guess you're almost guaranteed to get punished.

VoiD played like the best player in the world at MSM 79.
Ban .

VoiD always dominates MSM when he's in attendance. Nothing new here.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Except there's nothing to fear when you get hit by those attacks. Marth is as good as he is because those safe pokes kill or combo into kill moves. What is there to fear about a tipper Roy anything?

I'm talking about spacing the sword so the middle of the blade hits them rather than the tip. That being said, most of his tippers aren't bad at all since they set up into 50 / 50 situations or tech chases in his favor (i.e tipper Jab can allow him to get a potential grab or DED).

but "spaced" isnt what roy wants to do. those are safe but he needs his opponent to mess up before he can get in. he might as well not even be holding a sword since he gets nothing for using it.

Except it is what he wants to do. Spacing is essential for every character and roy is no exception. He just needs to space his attacks so that the middle of his blade hits rather than the tip (though his tipper reward is by no means bad on key attacks in his neutral like D-tilt, Jab, Fair, Nair, and F-Tilt). Also, he gets a lot from wielding a sword, namely a disjointed hitbox that is able to outrange than many characters like Mario and Fox

 

[jespoke]

Roy poking you with a pool noodle might not be scary, but it does let him stay in the fight and hold stage position, which makes high reward reads a much more realistic prospect.

 

[williamsga555]

I'm aware of the auto-snap, but suppose he somehow goes over. What can he do to save himself?

There shouldn't be any way that he accidentally goes over without player error being the cause. The snap is active the entire duration of the ascent, unless you either face away from the stage or hold down while ascending.

• If he's facing away from the ledge, that's either his own fault, or the result of a stage tech after an attempted stage-spike by the opponent.
• In the case of the stage tech, assuming he's forced to go past the ledge because he's already burned his jumps and can't turn around, he should be at risk of nothing more than a light punish, since his opponent is presumably offstage (in order to get the stage spike to begin with)

The only other thing I can think of is if a windbox pushed him above+away from the ledge. I'd argue that a lot of characters would be in trouble in this scenario (after using their up-b's, of course), since a majority of recovery moves place the user into freefall. D3 at least has the option between a telegraphed-but-painful attack and a sudden freefall changeup.

D3's recovery is legitimately great at getting to the ledge. Loads of super armor and terrific distance means he should have no problem getting there. The problem is that he shouldn't ever want to be there, and he doesn't have many options for recovering high as an alternative.

The ideal way to edgeguard D3 really is to just let him grab the ledge and then make him pay for it moments later.

 

[420quickscoper]

When you make the wrong guess you're almost guaranteed to get punished.

Being punished for the wrong read is specific to Roy?

 

[TDK]

Being punished for the wrong read is specific to Roy?

Roy gets Combo'd like DK and dies really early, and also has a bad recovery. It hurts so much more to be hit with Roy.