Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Deleted member]

what would you even do to those characters for a nerf that doesnt rework them? only nerf in that list id support is diddy fair. bayo, shiek, and diddy have all been sliced up before.

I don't know myself. I'm just responding to the hypothetical scenario he brought up.

 

[KenMeister]

Man, if a miracle patch like this happened, I can see the meta being a HELL of alot less dishonest.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Man, if a miracle patch like this happened, I can see the meta being a HELL of alot less dishonest.

idk, it would be MKs and their shenanigans everywhere. Don't know how "honest" that is. Ryu would probably be a lot more common as well, along with Greninja and Marth.

Those four alone would become headaches. Sheiks would probably mostly switch to Greninja, everyone else would be spread out among those four. Throw in a few Toon Links for additional headaches and long drawn out matches in the TL ditto.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I'd switch to MK or Pikachu, definitely. Pikachu is the character I would be playing if Sheik didn't exist.
But, no, actually. I think Bayo aside, the meta is more honest with our current top tiers than it would be with characters like at the top.

 

[Aaron1997]

Can you guys imagine if ZeRo played Toon Link in tournament? Oh my goddd. I would kill to see him pick TL up as a secondary. Not sure how much that would help with Diddy's matchups, but having another item-based zoner in his arsenal with an even better projectile game, better kill power and recovery would be sick. I could really see ZeRo's neutral shine with that character...

...which gives me an idea. It's 2017, and leading up to the release of 5mash for Switch, daddy Sakurai decides to damn all of the tier-***** top players one last time for their dishonest crimes against humanity and nerfs the **** out of the top ten characters. ,,,,,,,,, and are all borderline unplayable now, and the metagame is in shambles. Who do all of the top players pick up in lieu of the old threats and why? All mid and low tiers remain the same, untouched by Sakurai in return for their honest purity.

If you Include Marth/Lucina this want would probably happen

ZeRo/Ally
Nairo
Dabuz
MKLeo
Abadango
Tweek
Mr.R
6WX
Komorikrui (If it gets all of its moves, after that idk)
Larry Lurr
VoiD
ANTi
MVD


Kameme/Ranai will be god. Expect Corrins everywhere

These will be next 20 in no order

 

[Deleted member]

I doubt ZeRo would main Shulk after the "miracle patch", as cool as that'd be. Likely Ally would go for him though.

 

[blackghost]

people complain about combo characters already. you really think a meta filled with bowser and increase in dk and zard would be enjoyed? it would just be a series of grabs with few combos.
dont let people fool you they dont want to see more tl or pacman they like them now because they are novelties. those characters mostly go to time.
also these same complaints would be directly given to metaknight.
and anyone that thinks this meta isnt relatively honest has no experience in virtually any other popular fighting game. (this is my marvel and soulcalibur 2 and 5 background talking) to me that remains this communities major weakness most players have no perspective involving other games.

 

[TDK]

ZeRo'd probably go Falcon, honestly, if that were to happen.

Personally I'd end up dropping Rosa outside of for fun and play more Bowser alongside Link if that happened.

EDIT: Unrelated but looks like Larry's also adding a secondary: https://twitter.com/LarryLurr/status/815781227659567105

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Ally would play a different character against Luigi if his secondaries were good. Now that he's training up a Marth we might start seeing that instead.
Don't quote me on this but iirc even Zenyou hops off Mario asap when he has to fight a Luigi. As far as Luigi beating Diddy, ZeRo pretty much always switches off to another character instead of playing that matchup. Can't remember the last time he played Diddy Luigi.

ZeRo's Sheik is a Luigi's worst nightmare. ZeRo makes that match up look utterly hopeless. Takes forever for him to get the kill regardless, but it doesn't really matter when he almost never gets hit by Luigi and even if he lost a stock at all would likely still have a percent lead.

If you Include Marth/Lucina this want would probably happen

1. Why would adding them to the list make it any more likely?
2. Why nerf Marth to begin with? He's (and none of the other top tier characters really for that matter) not broken at all.
3. Why nerf Lucina? She's not broken at all. She's not even as good as Marth.

I don't think some of you realize why nerfing all 11 of the top tiers would be a bad idea. Why kill such a deep meta only to replace it with "I grab you and you die." Falcon, Bowser, and Ness would flourish in that meta.

 

[Aaron1997]

I think we should stop paying attention to Match-up charts. HIKARU makes DK look like a low tier

 

[TriTails]

Eh, when you're disadvantaged against Sheik, Bayo, Rosalina, Mewtwo, Marth and possibly slight disadvantage against Cloud I can't really see Luigi being too relevant.

His advantageous MUs are also sitting at 'slightly advantaged' at best.

Even when assuming Luigi doesn't lose to other characters in high tier and below (He does... to actually a bit of them actually), that's not a good MU spread bruh.

His explosive damage is handy when you manage to land that grab, but how are you going to kill against someone who doesn't approach or make commital moves? U-smash is good but it doesn't beat disjoints. B-throw kills wayyyy too late on anywhere except on the ledge. B-air also doesn't beat disjoints. You can't really Cyclone gimp a lot of the top tiers.

To me, Luigi is just... mid tier. Bottom high at best, but no more than that. Character isn't the beast he was (If he was to have his old D-throw back then he's going to jump to Top 15 probably lol) and while the popular opinion is that people overrate Lugi's nerf bat, it's kind of understandable. Losing kill setups (Almost entirely) are HUGE and hinders him greatly. He doesn't even have 50/50s anymore, D-throw to Cyclone stuff be damned (Miss and die, basically. They usually can just DI up and away, double jump and Luigi can't catch them), and... yes, he can't kill very well because of it.

If we ever see his rise once again in this patch, I wouldn't put too much bet into his consistency. When people learn the MU and stop trying to beat him in close combat he probably is going to fall (Not that I expect a lot of people to actually adapt that playstyle, but... you get my point.)

...The day when a Luigi is forced to take on MKLeo's Marth is probably the day of suffering for the aforementioned Luigi. Just sayin'.

 

[TTTTTsd]

If they screw the top 10 of this game there's a very good chance a lot of the top players will become VERY disheartened with the game.

Like I don't mean minor changes, I mean outright screwed (as presented in the hypothetical.) It would actually be a disaster, and would throw a solid year of meta development under the bus............



...which is why I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it happened.

 

[my_T]

View attachment 124420

I think we should stop paying attention to Match-up charts. HIKARU makes DK look like a low tier

What's wrong with it? Nothing crazy about it. I do have some minor disagreements with it though

I would move Samus, Greninja, Villager and M2 to slight disadvantage; G&W, Jiggs and Kirby to slight advantage

 

[bc1910]

I don't know where DK mains get the idea they go even with Greninja. Granted we don't see it much in bracket, but based on the small amount of data we have (and my own experience) it should be a slight disadvantage at best. Greninja is very good against every heavy except Charizard.

 

[Luigi player]

How does luigi even deal with Diddy d-tilt?

Seems like Luigi eats Diddy's that don't have an actual ground game and rely on throwing out random fairs.

It's actually the opposite. Diddys aerials are way more troublesome for Luigi than any of Diddys ground game except when Diddy gets grabs himself. Fair and even bair are easy to hit with and can keep Luigi out a bit.

I don't think I ever even worried about having to deal with dtilts from Diddy with Luigi. Most of the time you just space with Fireballs to create openings and/or make him approach you. Fireballs eat bananas so they kinda deny him his banana game pretty effectively. Luigis jabs and quick dashgrab are amazing tools in CQC and definitely out-reward any dtilt stuff Diddy could get. Diddy actually has a very good weight for being combo-food (for Mario as well as Luigi), so getting a grab on Diddy is absolutely amazing. Luigis combos got worse with the nerfs (and then more with Sheiks weight-nerf which actually made it harder to combo her at very low %..), but Diddy can really eat 40-50 % if Luigi gets a grab.

Besides that Luigi could also edgeguard Diddy decently well, with Fireballs covering a bit of space in front and downB covering below. Luigi is also amazing at trapping Diddy when he has to land with usmashes (as long as you can keep up with his possible sideB option) and can also challenge Diddys aerials for a normally greater reward than Diddy if both are at KO-%.

That being said. The MU is probably close to even, but I really think a small advantage is there for Luigi so it should not be called even.

 

[Das Koopa]

#100-91 of OrionRank:

https://intheloop837.wordpress.com/2017/01/02/orionrank-top-100-100-91/

Tournies to come in a bit. Had a gas leak/power outage lol

 

[TriTails]

Luigis combos got worse with the nerfs (and then more with Sheiks weight-nerf which actually made it harder to combo her at very low %..),

Eh?

We combo Sheik at low percents just fine. You have to charge the U-smash a bit (Like split second) after D-throw at 0% so that she can't footstool or jump away before the grab. If you're feeling technical, Poke combo also works on her as well. D-air spikes can also lead to N-air to U-smash or B-air, which is nice at mid percents.

I... actually don't feel any differences between pre-weight nerf and post-weight nerf? May be just me tho.

But I agree completely on Diddy being combo food. His F4 U-air can't break any of Luigi's combos except for the two dollar slices (Which you can even space to avoid the U-air) and... just the plain fast-fallers vs combos thing, basically.

 

[Emblem Lord]

idk, it would be MKs and their shenanigans everywhere. Don't know how "honest" that is. Ryu would probably be a lot more common as well, along with Greninja and Marth.

Those four alone would become headaches. Sheiks would probably mostly switch to Greninja, everyone else would be spread out among those four. Throw in a few Toon Links for additional headaches and long drawn out matches in the TL ditto.

Ryu would be a headache for whom? I am truly curious.

He would definitely smoke bad characters, but several mid tiers do fine and he even loses to a few.

Marth and MK are far bigger worries for such a metagame.

 

[Luigi player]

Eh?

We combo Sheik at low percents just fine. You have to charge the U-smash a bit (Like split second) after D-throw at 0% so that she can't footstool or jump away before the grab. If you're feeling technical, Poke combo also works on her as well. D-air spikes can also lead to N-air to U-smash or B-air, which is nice at mid percents.

I... actually don't feel any differences between pre-weight nerf and post-weight nerf? May be just me tho.

Before the weight nerf we were able to:
Dthrow -> slightly charged usmash -> regrab -> dthrow -> fair -> fair / bair,
which was still pretty good and strong.

But after her weight "nerf" it seems impossible to me. I've tried different timings for the usmash charge and maybe it is somehow still possible if you're frameperfect with letting go of the charge, but nothing consistent realistically.
Best I get ouf of a dthrow right now is:
Fair -> fastfall into regrab [hope they shield] -> continue (which can still be good, but opponent can easily avoid it by dodging),
or slightly charged usmash -> jab combo

It's still a nice punish for a grab that other characters would love, but Luigi needs more to be able to better keep up with Sheik. He doesn't get hits in easy or often so the ones he does get need to do a lot of damage.

 

[Routa]

View attachment 124420

I think we should stop paying attention to Match-up charts. HIKARU makes DK look like a low tier

The MU looks pretty much like the one I had in mind. Main reason why some people think that Gunner has an advantage against DK has to do with his recovery, landing and neutral. DK is very vulnerable to Gunner's 2 framing with Flame Pillar. Gunner can get easily 2-3 hits with Flame Pillar before DK is able to get off the ledge. Gunner is amazing at catching landings with his Uair and DK happens to be a easy target. And neutral is pretty much Gundashing and Nair that can keep DK at bay for quite long. So what keeps Gunner from being really bad MU for DK? He is combo food and he does have issues with killing (not in terms of power, but in terms of hitting the move). It is very evenish MU, but Gunner might have a slight advantage over DK, but it depends from the stage.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ryu would be a headache for whom? I am truly curious.

He would definitely smoke bad characters, but several mid tiers do fine and he even loses to a few.

Marth and MK are far bigger worries for such a metagame.

Less headache as in "stomping on fools" and more headache as in "this is the 4th Ryu I've played this tournament whyyyyyy I can only avoid that Up B so many times". Most of his reasons to not play him are in the current top 10 characters are they not? And even if you shouldn't be falling for it much, people get so mad salty/on tilt if they get killed by that Up B.

 

[Djmarcus44]

The MU looks pretty much like the one I had in mind. Main reason why some people think that Gunner has an advantage against DK has to do with his recovery, landing and neutral. DK is very vulnerable to Gunner's 2 framing with Flame Pillar. Gunner can get easily 2-3 hits with Flame Pillar before DK is able to get off the ledge. Gunner is amazing at catching landings with his Uair and DK happens to be a easy target. And neutral is pretty much Gundashing and Nair that can keep DK at bay for quite long. So what keeps Gunner from being really bad MU for DK? He is combo food and he does have issues with killing (not in terms of power, but in terms of hitting the move). It is very evenish MU, but Gunner might have a slight advantage over DK, but it depends from the stage.

Why do you think that Mii Gunner is combo food? Gunner has a frame 3 reflector that can break combos. In addition Gunner is a pretty floaty character with a somewhat small hurtbox. This makes it easier for Gunner to avoid kill setups, and it makes Gunner harder to jab lock and footstool combo. Gunner is pretty hard to jab lock compared to the cast, and Gunner can avoid some infinite combos because of these traits. Gunner's ability to get out of combos is definitely is actually pretty good relative to the cast.

 

[teddystalin]

Less headache as in "stomping on fools" and more headache as in "this is the 4th Ryu I've played this tournament whyyyyyy I can only avoid that Up B so many times". Most of his reasons to not play him are in the current top 10 characters are they not? And even if you shouldn't be falling for it much, people get so mad salty/on tilt if they get killed by that Up B.

I can't imagine Ryu being particularly common in a meta where have lost their biggest roadblocks. If anything he owes most of his success to exploiting the impatience of light fast fallers in our current top tier.

 

[DanGR]

If those 10 characters were trashed in a patch, most of those listed players would probably pick up one of Marth, MK, Lucario, Megaman, & Toon Link. Even with huge nerfs to the current top tiers, half those characters will never be viable.

Also, DK is garbage- imo the 3rd best heavyweight behind Bowser and Charizard. He will only go down.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I can't imagine Ryu being particularly common in a meta where have lost their biggest roadblocks. If anything he owes most of his success to exploiting the impatience of light fast fallers in our current top tier.

This man right here.

Preach that good talk brother.

 

[TDK]

Greninja is very good against every heavy except Charizard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXaIVYq3c4Y

 

[Dre89]

If those 10 characters were trashed in a patch, most of those listed players would probably pick up one of Marth, MK, Lucario, Megaman, & Toon Link. Even with huge nerfs to the current top tiers, half those characters will never be viable.

Also, DK is garbage- imo the 3rd best heavyweight behind Bowser and Charizard. He will only go down.

Could you or someone else please explain what Zard has over DK?

 

[meticulousboy]

Well, Charizard has a better vertical recovery for one. For another, I think Charizard has the superior Nair over DK. Same goes for Fair.

 

[Jaguar360]

Could you or someone else please explain what Zard has over DK?

Better landing options, better options from the ledge, Flamethrower, more versatile OoS options and super armor mainly. Their neutrals are pretty similarly effective. Over Zard, DK still has Ding Dong, better grab hitboxes and better aerial mobility though. I'm still leaning on DK as the better heavy for now, but his weaknesses are more exploitable than Zard's imo, so we could see a change in that later on.

 

[Deleted member]

Zard would have a good out of shield game if his traction wasn't absolutely horrendous.

 

[my_T]

Zard has a better neutral and disadvantage than DK.

Zards advantage ain't bad either. he's very good at sharking the opponents landing with things like nair, utilt, and usmash. Also, his standing grab range is dumb good, better than DK's; combine that with his 11 frame dash to shield and his significantly superior dash speed and you will find yourself getting a good amount of shield grabs. He doesn't have a super strong kill confirm but moves bair, fair, uair, and upB deal quite a bit of knockback, especially bair. Uthrow is more of a stock cap move but can kill early as well with the help of platforms.

If you want to see a solid Charizard in action look up Serge

 

[verbatim]

DK and Bowser will both land grabs significantly more than Charizard, who's neck extends his hurtbox when he dash grabs (like Melee Yoshi).

 

[Dre89]

Better landing options, better options from the ledge, Flamethrower, more versatile OoS options and super armor mainly. Their neutrals are pretty similarly effective. Over Zard, DK still has Ding Dong, better grab hitboxes and better aerial mobility though. I'm still leaning on DK as the better heavy for now, but his weaknesses are more exploitable than Zard's imo, so we could see a change in that later on.

DK's disadvantage is worse but his advantage is better given his good frame data and mobility plus his higher reward.

I'm also not buying that Zard's neutral is better, I don't see what Zard has that is safer and more threatening than DK's bair or his dtilt/jab pokes.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Zard would have a good out of shield game if his traction wasn't absolutely horrendous.

Yeah but if that was the case he'd go from lower tier to mid to high tier easy. His down smash would become a legitimate threat, you wouldn't be able to get away from zard's ridiculous tilt range especially on ftilt, rock smash and fly suddenly become dangers and zard can punish you or evade with flare blitz or flamethrower. Granted I'd love to see that being he's my main and all.

 

[Luco]

Zard has a few things in neutral that are actually really scary - Flamethrower vs a lot of characters in the right situation is literally a "you get to play neutral when I say so" card and Dtilt and jab are ranged and/or quick and generally really good. That's not to mention that at relatively low percents Ftilt sweetspot will outright kill you whilst being disjointed as all hell.

Don't know if this makes him more or less scary than DK in neutral; I don't have enough experience with DK to say.

 

[Peppermint1201]

View attachment 124420

I think we should stop paying attention to Match-up charts. HIKARU makes DK look like a low tier

Is he wrong though? I wouldn't disagree with him on any of the matchups he lists as disadvantageous. If anything, I think we as a community should start putting consistency in our matchup charts like Street Fighter players do, since the ability to upset matchups that he quote-unquote "should" be losing is one of the reasons DK does well.

 

[chaos11011]

#100-91 of OrionRank:

https://intheloop837.wordpress.com/2017/01/02/orionrank-top-100-100-91/

Tournies to come in a bit. Had a gas leak/power outage lol

Dang, I was hoping Raffi-X would be later on the list, if at all, but the blurb under Holy crushed my hopes and dreams. RIP New England.

 

[Deleted member]

While I strongly disagree that Charizard is better than the allegedly garbage but still viable DK, our 'Zard does have a vertical recovery, a projectile in Flamethrower and Rock Smash, a faster Fair, and a more reliable Nair, all of which DK lacks. Charizard's High-Low tier at worst, but to call him better than DK is ridiculous.

 

[Das Koopa]

Dang, I was hoping Raffi-X would be later on the list, if at all, but the blurb under Holy crushed my hopes and dreams. RIP New England.

He got 127th overall. A lot of New England's contenders (besides Awesum lmao 4th lowest score) where one big set win away from breaking the Top 100. Look forward to Pugwest and Marss, at least.

 

[Shaya]

DK and Bowser will both land grabs significantly more than Charizard, who's neck extends his hurtbox when he dash grabs (like Melee Yoshi).

So he has pretty good grab range? His dash grab is pretty trash though and shouldn't be used too much.
I'd say he's better at getting grabs than DK.

And the comments on the poor traction or out of shield game seem a bit "eh".
His 4f jab is pretty good (oos).
You can't reliably cross over him because that's up smash/up-b fodder.
11f dash to shield is solid for his dash specs, also a 10f skid which is on the lower end of the cast. You'd be surprised what the gliding animation allows him to avoid "for an extra frame than a character would otherwise usually have to deal with" (both high and low) while running in for power shields.

I'd say Charizard excels at "traditional" neutral (he fits within the sword fighter archetype) compared to other heavyweights, but Bowser is probably still overall better because the amount of respect grab necessitates and his obscene reaching forward in his attack animations.
Charizard has a wide array of "trump" moves that beat things with reads that give sizable reward, I'd say these are slightly more reliable and rewarding than bowser/DK.
But in terms of advantage he doesn't really have anything special, it comes down purely to succeeding with his trump moves.
What makes him special in disadvantage is flare blitz - this thing allows the ****** to never die / usually be ungimpable past mid percent off stage. This "boon" to his overall disadvantage state is likely the biggest part to what makes him remotely an okay pick and not just being trapped between a weaker hitting faster moving ganondorf.