Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Egghead]

For doubles would double cloud be optimal?

 

[Routa]

For doubles would double cloud be optimal?

No.
Double Cloud is a mess. Cloud requires character that can boost his abilities and quite frankly another Cloud doesn't do it as well as let's say Mario or Sheik. He requires support partner to be the beast he is.

 

[HoSmash4]

i think Bayo is pretty underrated in dubs

 

[420quickscoper]

While we're talking about punish games, I'll say that Salem has been dropping his combos a lot recently (he used to be good at punishing DI reads, except now people has been mixing it up and make it quite difficult).
Pink Fresh has amazing conversions despite not having a great neutral or disadvantaged state himself.

ikep however is in a whole different level over them, his combos are so precise, quick to avoid any sort of DI, and combines aerials for max damage or height for killing off the top.
He makes Bayonetta look truly broken.

I know Ikep's amazing (after all he has won 2 decently stacked Japan tourneys recently) but I don't see any VODs of him. Do you know where they are?

 

[ぱみゅ]

i wouldnt say ikep bayo is better than salem or captain zach at this point in any aspect mainly due to how he placed well below others when hes been in the us.
as for salem combo game its slowly happening as many bayo players have said the entire time: di will screw her. in coming months elaborate bayo fair combos (outside fox/roy) will be rare. double and triple witch twist combos will be anomalies. at high level play bayo placment is averaging outside top 8 if her best character skill punish game continues to get weaker she is going to have to modofy her gameplan movong forward.
when was the last time a high level player got a full carry to the cieling by a bayo?

ikep's success is recent, he has been getting results only from the latest ~3 events, but his numbers suddenly improved.
Anyway, my point is that just looking at his combo game and how much he does that isn't implemented by other top players with great neutral (Salem), advantage and pressure (Pink Fresh, Wonf), movement (Zach), or edgeguard (Saj), the possibilities of having a truly broken character are there, but not a single player seems to have all those aspects mastered.

 

[blackghost]

ikep's success is recent, he has been getting results only from the latest ~3 events, but his numbers suddenly improved.
Anyway, my point is that just looking at his combo game and how much he does that isn't implemented by other top players with great neutral (Salem), advantage and pressure (Pink Fresh, Wonf), movement (Zach), or edgeguard (Saj), the possibilities of having a truly broken character are there, but not a single player seems to have all those aspects mastered.

to be fair the only player with a claim to have mastered a character is mk leo marth.

 

[soniczx123]

i think Bayo is pretty underrated in dubs

Same.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

to be fair the only player with a claim to have mastered a character is mk leo marth.

Is he really the only one? I personally think Earth's Pit is pretty much maxed out at this point and Zero is very close to it as well with Diddy Kong. Not that I fundamentally disagree with your main point - there truly aren't many players who can claim to have 'mastered' their character. Ranai, Kameme, Earth, MKLeo and Zero are the 5 players that are closest to it imo.

 

[Rizen]

Q Here Luigi avoids Ryu's punish by standing on the ledge so Ryu's focus attack pushes him offstage, is that a viable strat for other characters or just a slippery Luigi thing?

What do you guys think of ? He seems to be in the same boat as Ryu, maybe somewhat worse, in that he can punish hard enough to stay relevant and threaten top tiers yet falls short in approaching/being zoned. Can he compete with good players backing him?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Luigi, as long as he keeps doing well against Didy Kong, would be a viable secondary pick for people that main Mewtwo and ZSS. Not many people make use of that option though Dakpo from Texas runs ZSS/Luigi to local success [I don't think he travels]. He could also be an interesting niche character choice in doubles, at least he was one in Brawl and he hasn't fundamentally changed for the worse. Nobody really uses anymore though, people still largely overrate how hard he was hit by the nerfhammer.

 

[HoSmash4]

People overrate how good he was overall pre patch as well

 

[Luigi player]

Q Here Luigi avoids Ryu's punish by standing on the ledge so Ryu's focus attack pushes him offstage, is that a viable strat for other characters or just a slippery Luigi thing?

Looks to me like he SDIs offstage, but I'm not completely sure, maybe Luigi is just a bit slippery there.

What do you guys think of ? He seems to be in the same boat as Ryu, maybe somewhat worse, in that he can punish hard enough to stay relevant and threaten top tiers yet falls short in approaching/being zoned. Can he compete with good players backing him?

He can partially compete.

Looking at his MUs against the top tiers (my opinions of course) it would look like this:
-1.5
-1/-2
+1/+0.5
~0/-0.5
+1
~0/-0.5
+1
~0
-1.5
-1
-0.5

If you'd go by popular opinion, his MUs against Cloud, Sonic, ZSS and Marth are probably worse (though I haven't really seen Marth/Luigi at all so I'm just guessing people would think he just outranges Luigi well enough to make it a losing MU for Luigi).
I also don't have experience against high-top level against quite a few of these characters, so who knows maybe I'd see some differently if I did.

Sheik and Bayo feel like his worst MUs to me. Mewtwo is hard too, but I dunno, Mewtwo has no combo breaker and isn't as lagless as Sheik or hard-punishing/safe as Bayonetta (because of Witchtime) or edgeguards Luigi for free with Bouncing Fish.

So overall, Luigi is struggling most of the time, not super hard, but at least a little bit. Obviously not just against the characters in top tier. He can be decent, and a nice CP against some. I still feel comfortable with Luigi just because of his great grab and punish game. Getting walled out can be super annoying, though.

Imo, ZSS can be even. I haven't seen Concon/Elegant play against a top ZSS, but from personal experience I'd say powershielding her aerials (nair) is very possible to get grabs/jab punishes, ducking through not perfectly spaced zairs, and punishing missed grabs (stay in shield a lot to bait grabs) with upB reliably to KO her at 50 is pretty good.

In my own tierlist I put him between the bottom of High Tier and the top of Mid Tier.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

People overrate how good he was overall pre patch as well

I don't know if this is supposed to be a counter-point to mine but I agree :3

 

[Emblem Lord]

I could argue that neither Luigi nor Ryu are truly relevant.

 

[blackghost]

i think Bayo is pretty underrated in dubs

care to eleborate?

 

[FeelMeUp]

Luigi is solid.
Cyclone gimping is really really stupid and his damage racking ability(20 MINIMUM) off a mistake is insane. His MUs are my opinion, of course, but like I've said. Beating Fox, Mario and Diddy will make him relevant for all time.
....
Did I mention how stupid Cyclone gimps are?

 

[Deathorse]

Darkaura has beaten Deathhorse twice, iStudying is tied in sets with Rich, Some beat Abadango, and Venia has beaten WaDi.

I don't think Mewtwo is a losing match up for us anymore.

Someone just showed me this, even though I'm kinda late on it. DarkAura only has one win on me at Canada Cup, the other time I faced him, Nexus 2016, I won. Oh yeah and you misspelled my tag

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I could argue that neither Luigi nor Ryu are truly relevant.

I'd love to hear how Ryu isn't relevant, being genuine.

Luigi isn't going anywhere tho, his grab reward makes me jealous.

 

[-Tornado-]

I'd love to hear how Ryu isn't relevant, being genuine.

Luigi isn't going anywhere tho, his grab reward makes me jealous.

Well, Ryu doesn't really have that much going for him, in all honesty - sure, he has a strong punish game, and can kill quite early, but he doesn't really have the ability to take on any top tier character - except for Fox - and gets camped out very easily. There's nothing he really does that makes him standout very much.

 

[blackghost]

Is he really the only one? I personally think Earth's Pit is pretty much maxed out at this point and Zero is very close to it as well with Diddy Kong. Not that I fundamentally disagree with your main point - there truly aren't many players who can claim to have 'mastered' their character. Ranai, Kameme, Earth, MKLeo and Zero are the 5 players that are closest to it imo.

zero is a master of nuetral not sure if its a true mastery of diddy. shame on me for forgetting rainai.
mega man has a lot of setups and tricks think it will be a while before we even know everything he can do. i dont know enough about earth to comment on him

 

[Deleted member]

Do we have much top level evidence showing that Luigi beats Diddy and Mario?

 

[ReRaze]

I personally think Earth's Pit is pretty much maxed out at this point.

I'd like to respectfully disagree here, Earth is just godlike fundamentally but as for using Pit to his full potential, imo he still has a ways to go, especially in pushing pit's punish and advantage game.
Earth would be a scary, scary man if he were a little more innovative~
https://gfycat.com/MintySorrowfulDonkey

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Speaking of ZeRo:

So I play FG all the time (there be a few warriors on there once in a while ¯\_(ツ)_/¯) and one thing I make note of is my movement, which is not where I want it to be (or my execution in general). So then, I'm watching ZeRo vs Earth Evo 2016, and around the 3:40, ZeRo's movement was sooo good he baited another neutral expert player into whiffing an attack. Just a random note.

Oh, and take note just how well ZeRo can keep earth out and his deadly combo of well-spaced Bairs, projectiles for stage control, and movement with monkey flips, PP, and basic ground movements. Zoning game is ridiculous

 

[Laken64]

Do we have much top level evidence showing that Luigi beats Diddy and Mario?

From what I've heard from Ally, he doesn't like the the MU because of Luigi's superior CQC (also not to forget his dumb nair out of marios grab combos which is a big thing and cyclone gimps) and the fact you have to play a bit campy against Luigi and expose his abysmal air speed and recovery

just notice how differently Ally plays against Elegant compared to any other MU or player in this match.

And I'm pretty sure its the same thing for diddy plus the fact Luigi can abuse banana WAY harder than Mario and the fact that in a SoCal local before ZeRo saga, ZeRo pulled out sheik against Elegant instead of going diddy.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Ally would play a different character against Luigi if his secondaries were good. Now that he's training up a Marth we might start seeing that instead.
Don't quote me on this but iirc even Zenyou hops off Mario asap when he has to fight a Luigi. As far as Luigi beating Diddy, ZeRo pretty much always switches off to another character instead of playing that matchup. Can't remember the last time he played Diddy Luigi.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Can you guys imagine if ZeRo played Toon Link in tournament? Oh my goddd. I would kill to see him pick TL up as a secondary. Not sure how much that would help with Diddy's matchups, but having another item-based zoner in his arsenal with an even better projectile game, better kill power and recovery would be sick. I could really see ZeRo's neutral shine with that character...

...which gives me an idea. It's 2017, and leading up to the release of 5mash for Switch, daddy Sakurai decides to damn all of the tier-***** top players one last time for their dishonest crimes against humanity and nerfs the **** out of the top ten characters. ,,,,,,,,, and are all borderline unplayable now, and the metagame is in shambles. Who do all of the top players pick up in lieu of the old threats and why? All mid and low tiers remain the same, untouched by Sakurai in return for their honest purity.

 

[soniczx123]

Can you guys imagine if ZeRo played Toon Link in tournament? Oh my goddd. I would kill to see him pick TL up as a secondary. Not sure how much that would help with Diddy's matchups, but having another item-based zoner in his arsenal with an even better projectile game, better kill power and recovery would be sick. I could really see ZeRo's neutral shine with that character...

...which gives me an idea. It's 2017, and leading up to the release of 5mash for Switch, daddy Sakurai decides to damn all of the tier-***** top players one last time for their dishonest crimes against humanity and nerfs the **** out of the top ten characters. ,,,,,,,,, and are all borderline unplayable now, and the metagame is in shambles. Who do all of the top players pick up in lieu of the old threats and why? All mid and low tiers remain the same, untouched by Sakurai in return for their honest purity.

Next best thing. TL, Bowser, Marth, MK etc.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Next best thing. TL, Bowser, Marth, MK etc.

I meant for specific players, like my example with ZeRo and TL

 

[Egghead]

Can you guys imagine if ZeRo played Toon Link in tournament? Oh my goddd. I would kill to see him pick TL up as a secondary. Not sure how much that would help with Diddy's matchups, but having another item-based zoner in his arsenal with an even better projectile game, better kill power and recovery would be sick. I could really see ZeRo's neutral shine with that character...

...which gives me an idea. It's 2017, and leading up to the release of 5mash for Switch, daddy Sakurai decides to damn all of the tier-***** top players one last time for their dishonest crimes against humanity and nerfs the **** out of the top ten characters. ,,,,,,,,, and are all borderline unplayable now, and the metagame is in shambles. Who do all of the top players pick up in lieu of the old threats and why? All mid and low tiers remain the same, untouched by Sakurai in return for their honest purity.

All the top players complain to daddy samurai and the changes are reverted. Nairo would still have his plethora of secondaries, mr r and void would take it like the sheik patch and try even harder with sheik, the mewtwos are used to this, a couple of DK mains here and there, Olimar for rosa and sonic will never be nerfed hard enough for his speed to be unabusable. Most diddys have their secondaries. Anti couldn't care more. Also Wii fit trainers will rule the world.

 

[G. Stache]

Ally would play a different character against Luigi if his secondaries were good. Now that he's training up a Marth we might start seeing that instead.
Don't quote me on this but iirc even Zenyou hops off Mario asap when he has to fight a Luigi. As far as Luigi beating Diddy, ZeRo pretty much always switches off to another character instead of playing that matchup. Can't remember the last time he played Diddy Luigi.

You're right about Zenyou, his Mario really struggles against Elegant's Luigi and he usually will go sheik against it instead. As for Zero, yeah. I'm still convinced that Zero has the best Sheik for the Luigi MU. Makes Luigi look downright atrocious.

 

[bc1910]

Can you guys imagine if ZeRo played Toon Link in tournament? Oh my goddd. I would kill to see him pick TL up as a secondary. Not sure how much that would help with Diddy's matchups, but having another item-based zoner in his arsenal with an even better projectile game, better kill power and recovery would be sick. I could really see ZeRo's neutral shine with that character...

...which gives me an idea. It's 2017, and leading up to the release of 5mash for Switch, daddy Sakurai decides to damn all of the tier-***** top players one last time for their dishonest crimes against humanity and nerfs the **** out of the top ten characters. ,,,,,,,,, and are all borderline unplayable now, and the metagame is in shambles. Who do all of the top players pick up in lieu of the old threats and why? All mid and low tiers remain the same, untouched by Sakurai in return for their honest purity.

I'm confident that with Sonic, Cloud and especially Sheik out of the picture, Greninja would have one of the best MU spreads in the game. Whether people would flock to him I'm not sure, but all his tried-and-true counterpicks would be gone.

This isn't really a question though. Top players would do what they always do and move to the next best thing. Marth, MK, Toon Link etc.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Can you guys imagine if ZeRo played Toon Link in tournament? Oh my goddd. I would kill to see him pick TL up as a secondary. Not sure how much that would help with Diddy's matchups, but having another item-based zoner in his arsenal with an even better projectile game, better kill power and recovery would be sick. I could really see ZeRo's neutral shine with that character...

...which gives me an idea. It's 2017, and leading up to the release of 5mash for Switch, daddy Sakurai decides to damn all of the tier-***** top players one last time for their dishonest crimes against humanity and nerfs the **** out of the top ten characters. ,,,,,,,,, and are all borderline unplayable now, and the metagame is in shambles. Who do all of the top players pick up in lieu of the old threats and why? All mid and low tiers remain the same, untouched by Sakurai in return for their honest purity.

MKLeo, king of all the land.

 

[Vyrnx]

I doubt Luigi beats Diddy. Zinoto is pretty good at the MU and beat Elegant a couple weeks ago at ZeRo Saga. It looks like a very even MU.

 

[Emblem Lord]

How does luigi even deal with Diddy d-tilt?

Seems like Luigi eats Diddy's that don't have an actual ground game and rely on throwing out random fairs.

 

[Frihetsanka]

...which gives me an idea. It's 2017, and leading up to the release of 5mash for Switch, daddy Sakurai decides to damn all of the tier-***** top players one last time for their dishonest crimes against humanity and nerfs the **** out of the top ten characters. ,,,,,,,,, and are all borderline unplayable now, and the metagame is in shambles. Who do all of the top players pick up in lieu of the old threats and why? All mid and low tiers remain the same, untouched by Sakurai in return for their honest purity.

Interesting. One might think that the characters that were formely #11, 12, 13 would move up to 1, 2, and 3, but this need not necessarily be the case. Some characters may have been held down due to their weakness to one or several of the current top 10 characters, and in a meta where those characters are worthless, then some currently mid-tier characters may very well end up at the top.

Corrin would certainly benefit a lot. Most of her worst matchups are top-tiers, and with no top tiers around, she'd be really solid. Same with Greninja, who, based on MU charts made by pro players, mostly seems to struggle with top tiers and Pikachu.

Marth would be pretty happy too, removing most of his bad matchups.

Even someone like Yoshi would benefit a lot. Most of Yoshi's bad matchups seem to be top tiers.

I don't think there's too much to say. With these 10 nerfed, a lot more characters would be viable and we'd see more character variety overall. Some characters would likely still not be used much (such as Zelda and Ganondorf), while many mid tiers would be a lot more viable, and many high tiers as well.

 

[Deleted member]

If Fox, Diddy, Sheik and Bayo all were to actually get significant nerfs prepare to see a lot more .

 

[NewZen]

Luigi usually excels at CQC thanks to his grab reward with or without punishes, but as someone who has him as a secondary, I'm curious to know just how well he does against characters like Diddy and Cloud (I've only dealt with so few good Diddy mains in FG and played a number of Clouds in Tournaments with him-I've had little trouble, but then again, those Cloud players could just not be as proficient).

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Can you guys imagine if ZeRo played Toon Link in tournament? Oh my goddd. I would kill to see him pick TL up as a secondary. Not sure how much that would help with Diddy's matchups, but having another item-based zoner in his arsenal with an even better projectile game, better kill power and recovery would be sick. I could really see ZeRo's neutral shine with that character...

...which gives me an idea. It's 2017, and leading up to the release of 5mash for Switch, daddy Sakurai decides to damn all of the tier-***** top players one last time for their dishonest crimes against humanity and nerfs the **** out of the top ten characters. ,,,,,,,,, and are all borderline unplayable now, and the metagame is in shambles. Who do all of the top players pick up in lieu of the old threats and why? All mid and low tiers remain the same, untouched by Sakurai in return for their honest purity.

Ike would no longer have a MU worse than 45-55.

 

[Das Koopa]

December data post will be arriving in the next week, but the database update and a full list of pertinent tournies from this month will be up tonight. It got neglected due to my player ranking project. Speaking of, here's an article on the hidden bosses;

https://intheloop837.wordpress.com/2017/01/01/orionrank-top-100-hidden-bosses/#more-171

 

[blackghost]

If Fox, Diddy, Sheik and Bayo all were to actually get significant nerfs prepare to see a lot more .

what would you even do to those characters for a nerf that doesnt rework them? only nerf in that list id support is diddy fair. bayo, shiek, and diddy have all been sliced up before.