Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Illusion.]

There is a standard.

With that said, I've always preferred actual words (even, slight advantage, advantage, etc.) anyway because it's more clear. It's not confusing at all and essentially means the same thing as the numbers, just easier to understand.

 

[Deleted member]

@Felicia ✂ - I appreciate your opinions and insights on the Marth:Shulk MU.

What's interesting though, is that both Pugwest and False believe it to be a minor advantage, and a straight up winning MU for Marth respectively.

False: https://twitter.com/fals1fy/status/740923629483986948

Pugwest: https://twitter.com/Pugwest/status/786741022923616257

While False's chart is a little older now, to be fair, not much has changed since then (if anything, MU's have only gotten better). Pugwest's is a little more up to date and finalised.

And on the topic of Meta Knight, False believes it to be just even, while Pugwest believes it to be just a minor advantage to Meta Knight (in fact he believes Marth has no straight up losing MU's anyway), so perhaps not his worst MU, much more an opinionated MU.

To be fair, I never really thought Meta Knight was that bad to be considered one of his absolute worst MU's (but again, I'm not a top player). I don't think it's a winning/advantageous MU for Marth (perhaps even is the best it could get), but I can understand why it can be a bother (no edgeguarding, can be edgeguarded, juggling is hard), but it's still possible to space out and around Meta Knight as in most MU's, and being a light fast faller only makes certain things better for Marth (Dthrow to aerial, linking Dancing Blade tipper kills etc).

Perfect Pivoting back in this MU helps quite a bit (and in general, most MU's, and I thank Leo for showcasing how to utilise PP's effectively with Marth to aid spacing), especially at range when Meta Knight will Dash Attack you. It makes punishing him for doing said move much easier. In fact this is also what makes the Shulk MU a lot easier too from my own experience. Even if Shulk can hit your shield on landing with an aerial, if you PP'd back, he isn't going to be able to follow up/pressure Marth for it, and all it takes is one perfect shield to screw him up. When you consider that Ftilt not only covers Shulk's grounded approaches, but can catch/anti air his aerial approaches too (I mean, this has range; it tippers through Battlefield platforms for god sake [which off topic can be a nice mix up on platforms in unison with Up Tilt, which when conditioned enough a Shield Breaker can be added to break those shields]), these combined with simply PP'ing makes approaching as Shulk a general chore.

But as you say Shulks seem to mindlessly jump, I don't see enough Marth's utilising this well enough either; Leo and False are the only two I've seen do this.

On the topic of PP's for Marth, I really like how Leo plays his edge game; Dtilt to try to catch a 2 frame, then instantly PP back, which gets you simultaneously out of get up attack range, and puts you at a perfect distance to catch rolls behind you on reaction, yet you are still in range to predict a jump get up and catch it with a Nair/Fair. If the opponent does a regular getup or getup attack, you can Jab them, which can confirm to an Ftilt too.

Leo is just so good...

Pug and False are both in two regions (New England and Tristate respectively) that think Shulk is garbage, so that isn't a surprise to me. Most regions that lack a notable Shulk sleep on him in general.

I could see Shulk having trouble against a Marth that could utilize his PPs very well, but the matchup is seldom seen at high level.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I and a lot of others always just done 0 1 2 3 (there's almost never a +/-4 MU unless it was something god awful like DK vs D3 in brawl or Ganon vs IC) during brawl with maybe 30% others doing the 50/even 55/-1 etc. ratios, or you could be weird like the pikachu's and have decimal ratios too.

 

[Das Koopa]

70-61 up: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/5m8slb/orionrank_top_100_7061/

On another note: I find it interesting that Goma finds the Bowser and DK matchups so hard for Lucario. I guess HIKARU and Kisha have really started to influence opinions in Japan?

 

[Luigi player]

Oh no, this topic again. Pretty sure it's not even allowed here (though it really needs to be adressed somewhere since as we can see people see different things with them).

Pretty sure that with the +1,+2, etc system people also wanted to avoid 55:45, 65:35 etc ratios and only have 50:50, 60:40, .., but everyone sees it differently anyway.

In my MU ratios for Luigi where I used "0.5" I was just not sure and thought it could be 0 or +1. When I wrote "+1/0.5" it was leaning more towards the +1, but not completely. I guess it can be misleading, though.

I also think Fuwa really does think of the same thing we do for the ones she has at +1. When using 0.3/0.5 etc she probably isn't sure or just feels that it just is a very tiny advantage or seems like one.

That's also the problem of just using 0, +1, +2, +3, ... it is kinda seen as the same thing for people, but they are just a little inaccurate. No MU is truly even except dittos. Some feel "about even" and are labeled "0", some feel like a smaller advantage and are labeled as +1. But what if it is even smaller than "small"? A tiny advantage... it is there = not even, but not too much. People will show that with decimal numbers or stuff like 55:45. So with just full numbers you have little room and it will be less accurate.
Probably most people would use more accurate numbers, but the problem is and was that people's opinions are always so different and unagreed upon so that it won't help too much at all when you want to find a consensus that you can ultimately label MUs as.

So when looking at an overall opinion of characters they (more accurate numbers/decimals) likely aren't used at all, but when you just see them from the opinion of an individual it makes sense. At least to me.

 

[ARGHETH]

Red topics:

Matchup Ratio Meta Discussion

• "What do/should matchup ratios mean, exactly?"
• "What is the best way to express matchup ratios?"
• "How precise can we really claim matchup ratios are?"

Oh no, this topic again. Pretty sure it's not even allowed here

Whoops. Sorry?

On another note: I find it interesting that Goma finds the Bowser and DK matchups so hard for Lucario. I guess HIKARU and Kisha have really started to influence opinions in Japan?

I mean, aren't characters that can consistently kill early generally bad for Lucario? And Bowser/DK also take a while to kill.

 

[Amadeus9]

MU ratios are completely arbitrary and do absolutely nothing useful to properly represent an mu. I really wish people would stop using them. Even/advantage/strong advantage/counter pick should be the only metric.

Like, what does 60:40 even mean? it gets even more ridiculous when people do weird **** like 53:47... everytime i see that stuff i wanna kms. MUs are way too complicated to simplify so improperly in this manner. If you're going to simplify, do it as a broad approximation not as a uselessly specific ratio that means literally nothing

 

[Zelder]

Parsing matchup ratios are, ironically, like a 90:10 matchup for this thread.

 

[TTTTTsd]

60:40 is a variant of 6:4, meaning in a match with two equally skilled players, it's a ratio of how much a character would win out of 10 games.

It's actually a very useful metric for gauging **** like how a matchup is because if you're playing a 6:4 matchup, even in a Bo5 set you are in a matchup where if you're on the losing end, you have logistical leeway to win the entire set (assuming it's not Grands.) if you're not paired up against someone vastly better than you.

This is also why 7:3 is usually the threshold for most people because in a Bo5 set you have to basically play perfectly in regards to the stats, and that's discounting player skill.

It's really not that hard to understand or describe.

 

[Rizen]

Anyway, Luigi seems to be a good counter-pick secondary but not solo viable. I think a good way to look at the difference between top and high tiers is: top tiers can get top 3 at big tournaments fairly consistently. High tiers manage top 16 and sometimes top 8 but don't break the glass ceiling.
In smash 4 all characters are relevant in the sense you need to know the MUs (looking at you Palutena). Only a handful of them will be consistent high level threats however.

PS
thankyou autosave because my kitten walked on the keyboard and somehow shut the firefox window.

 

[G. Stache]

Now, I know that even though Sheik potentially has no losing MUs in this game. But are there any characters that have historically given Sheik a hard time in tournament? If so, what are they and why do you think they've given Sheik a harder time than most?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

From what I know the only character that has given Sheik a hard time in tournament is Mewtwo

 

[TDK]

Rosa is probably Sheik's worst matchup.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Lucario I've heard is a difficult match up for Sheik.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

ehhhhh idk. I feel like we just need that Arturo Sanchez (or TS Sabin for anyone wondering from SF) to really push more characters.

 

[|RK|]

Now, I know that even though Sheik potentially has no losing MUs in this game. But are there any characters that have historically given Sheik a hard time in tournament? If so, what are they and why do you think they've given Sheik a harder time than most?

Kirby. Not because he wins or anything, but just because he makes you play differently. Annoying character according to Mr. R.

More realistically, Diddy - but that's mostly because ZeRo...

Bowser? Fox?

 

[Deleted member]

Sonic maybe?

 

[Peppermint1201]

Mewtwo, Diddy and Mario have the most compelling cases for doing well against Sheik when considering high-level tournament wins and matchup theory "on paper." All three have a large portfolio of wins against pretty much every top-level Sheik. Mewtwo's combos off of his normals, projectile game, and kill power (especially if the Mewtwo player is skilled at nair-footstool-disable-usmash) give him a fighting chance. Mario beats Sheik in a similar way -- he may be losing the neutral more than his opponent, but his damage output off of grab and raw kill power allow him to capitalize on the human aspect of the game and take Sheik's stocks before Sheik can assemble the jigsaw puzzle of getting a kill. Diddy might have the worst "theory" of the trio due to his edgeguardable recovery and the restriction of his A-moves with banana in hand, but ZeRo's wins don't lie.

 

[The-Technique]

Mr. R considers Mario to be Sheik's worst matchup, while VoiD puts Mario as +1, placing Sonic and Mewtwo as Sheik's only even matchups (the rest being in Sheik's favor).

 

[FeelMeUp]

Good time to post the MU chart I made last week I guess. This is indicative of top level play, mind you. Potentially swap Diddy and Mario back and forth or just shove Mario to 55:45 but either way, this is it. I still don't think she loses any MUs and outright destroys a good deal of the cast on certain stages(i.e FD Sheik solidly beats every character minus ).

Spoiler: ban

is mentally draining for most and has to play matchups instead of coasting by on good tools. Not many top tiers ask that of you.
There are ~55 matchups in this game.
Most become easier or more difficult depending on MU knowledge and level of play.
If a Ryu and Sheik both don't know the matchup, the MU flops to something ridiculous like 60:40 Ryu favour.
She has more complicated information in just 2-3 moves(needles, fair, bf) than some characters have in their entire kits. Pretty much every matchup post patch has to be played differently from one another or else her unfortunate light+tall+fastfaller combination could make her lose to anyone.
Few examples.
. If you don't know things like the timing for walltech fair/bf, the spacing at which he can punish needles, PP combo trees, specific edgeguards like falling BF and dtilt 2 frames the MU becomes much harder.
. If you don't know that trying fair>jab mixups will just get you grabbed and that you can't fair string the character at all off a throw at 0, the MU becomes much harder.
. If you don't know Diddy's fair beats every jump-in approach you can attempt, needles make Diddy drop banana, or that monkey flip doesn't snap ledge normally, the MU becomes much harder.

If you don't know the rising fair "scoop" hitbox directly under the tip of the move doesn't pick up short characters like it does on you have a lot more trouble with the players.

Know character weights, know frame data, know fall speeds, know how other moves interact with yours, know how rage impacts your combos, know what's true, know what's not, know the 50/50s are, etc.
Sheik needs you to be the best, most knowledgeable player you can be. Probably moreso than every other character choice.
She has all the tools to destroy this game but requires a genius' head on a strong pair of shoulders to do so.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Good time to post the MU chart I made last week I guess. This is indicative of top level play, mind you. Potentially swap Diddy and Mario back and forth or just shove Mario to 55:45 but either way, this is it. I still don't think she loses any MUs and outright destroys a good deal of the cast on certain stages(i.e FD Sheik solidly beats every character minus ).

Spoiler: ban

View attachment 124543

is mentally draining for most and has to play matchups instead of coasting by on good tools. Not many top tiers ask that of you.
There are ~55 matchups in this game.
Most become easier or more difficult depending on MU knowledge and level of play.
If a Ryu and Sheik both don't know the matchup, the MU flops to something ridiculous like 60:40 Ryu favour.
She has more complicated information in just 2-3 moves(needles, fair, bf) than some characters have in their entire kits. Pretty much every matchup post patch has to be played differently from one another or else her unfortunate light+tall+fastfaller combination could make her lose to anyone.
Few examples.
. If you don't know things like the timing for walltech fair/bf, the spacing at which he can punish needles, PP combo trees, specific edgeguards like falling BF and dtilt 2 frames the MU becomes much harder.
. If you don't know that trying fair>jab mixups will just get you grabbed and that you can't fair string the character at all off a throw at 0, the MU becomes much harder.
. If you don't know Diddy's fair beats every jump-in approach you can attempt, needles make Diddy drop banana, or that monkey flip doesn't snap ledge normally, the MU becomes much harder.

If you don't know the rising fair "scoop" hitbox directly under the tip of the move doesn't pick up short characters like it does on you have a lot more trouble with the players.

Know character weights, know frame data, know fall speeds, know how other moves interact with yours, know how rage impacts your combos, know what's true, know what's not, know the 50/50s are, etc.
Sheik needs you to be the best, most knowledgeable player you can be. Probably moreso than every other character choice.
She has all the tools to destroy this game but requires a genius' head on a strong pair of shoulders to do so.

TLDR: Sheik is technical as crap.

Which is why I don't main her. I need characters who are simpler, yet is not linear.

Random rambling:

Also, have you guys ever looked at your playstyle and made comparisons to real life fighting playstyles? Like Mayweather's reactive, runaway turtle style? Or joe Frazier's highly evasive and mix-up heavy rushdown? Or a slower, paced poking battle like must Thai? Thought I ask because I played today, and I realize that I play super similar to fuudo, who plays highly reactive and defensive. My PSes are on point and I can stop someone's approach with jab and stuff.

I'm watching OCEAN rn, and I can't help but just notice how little gyro in hand he exploits. He uses a lot of charged gyro (most of the time, it's shielded). Gyros last for as long as you can make them, and having them in your hand makes ROB a TON more capable in neutral. He also empty SH a lot, which is a stylistic difference, since I like to just walk around and Anti Air with my Fair. His ledge game isn't patient enough either, he liked to ledge drop and attack, which isn't realllly safe (big body character with short limbs and subpar mobility and blind spots). BUT, this dude is insanely creative and though he can struggle getting back into the stage against disjoint characters, he can get kills and just attack in bizarrely uncanny ways. He's heavily opportunistic.

 

[FeelMeUp]

She has the most room for physical techskill while also having more 50/50s, standard DI mixups and random "haha you might die to this" traps than every other character in this game.
But at this VERY moment the gap between her and someone like Diddy or Bayo isn't too large....and those two are a million times easier to get into and do well with. Hell, I'd say that at mid level play they're both even better than she is.
The reasons Sheik is an underused character despite how good she is really aren't a mystery.

 

[Nobie]

I'm skeptical of the claim that Luigi beats Fox. Fox is way better in the neutral game and so getting grabs should be fairly difficult for Luigi; in addition, the n-air isn't a big deal for a Fox who is very precise with his spacing, like Larry. Watch ConCon vs. LarryLurr at ZeRo Saga; ConCon takes much more damage from Larry than he deals per neutral exchange.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcUSgbfMVhU&t=137s

Larry is better than ConCon for sure, but focus on Luigi vs. Fox rather than the players' reads; do you notice how deftly Fox outmaneuvers Luigi?

While Larry beat ConCon there, he also not so long ago went Donkey Kong vs. Elegant instead of Fox. Maybe he figured out something recently, or maybe Donkey Kong does particularly well against Luigi (or both)?

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

+2 is what we considered about 6-4 to 65:35 while +1 is 55:55 to 60:40
The system was never meant to translate from ratios 1:1. It's an entire different system, because ratios are too relative
0 +1 +2 and +3 and +4 translate into the following:
-even
- slight advantage
- advantage
- clear advantage
- There is some close to auto-win button
Those are all you need.
Don't translate directly into ratios.
Using decimals IS NOT CORRECT.
There are no decimals in this system. This system was created to prevent decimals.

People got too conservative with these definitions.
You rarely see +2 match-ups even though a lot of people see +1 as 55:45. This is a contradiction itself, because as Things are right now we'd have like 70% 55:45 MU's in this game which is clearly not the case.

If I could like this 7 more times, I definitely would.

Now, I know that even though Sheik potentially has no losing MUs in this game. But are there any characters that have historically given Sheik a hard time in tournament? If so, what are they and why do you think they've given Sheik a harder time than most?

Mario, Mewtwo, and Diddy Kong have shown to do well enough to at least be even. Marth does very well now too, and Leo has destroyed both VoiD and Mr. R.

 

[G. Stache]

While Larry beat ConCon there, he also not so long ago went Donkey Kong vs. Elegant instead of Fox. Maybe he figured out something recently, or maybe Donkey Kong does particularly well against Luigi (or both)?

Nah, Larry just went DK that entire tournament because he wanted to. And DK doesn't really do particularly well against Luigi. most say (at least from what I hear) it's either even or tipped in Luigi's favor.

 

[The-Technique]

If I could like this 7 more times, I definitely would.


Mario, Mewtwo, and Diddy Kong have shown to do well enough to at least be even. Marth does very well now too, and Leo has destroyed both VoiD and Mr. R.

I think if Leo keeps up this streak, Sheik might not be as bad for Marth as originally thought. Before Leo really entered the spotlight, it was mainly Pugwest and Mr. E repping Marth, and both players have poor records against Sheik.

 

[bc1910]

Mewtwo still has the best record against Sheik. He is the only character able to consistently outcamp her largely thanks to Shadow Ball's superior range over needles, plus the threat of the fully charged version. He loses slightly in neutral but makes up ground quickly thanks to a killer advantage state and easier time getting the KO.

The next best option would be Mario, who has proven on multiple occasions that he can keep up with Sheik in neutral and advantage, potentially out-rewarding her. Though I feel Sheik can camp him out pretty well at high percents, she can't rely on needle camping to win the MU.

Dabuz makes Rosa/Sheik look pretty even but I don't know enough about the MU to put a ratio on it.

Good time to post the MU chart I made last week I guess. This is indicative of top level play, mind you. Potentially swap Diddy and Mario back and forth or just shove Mario to 55:45 but either way, this is it. I still don't think she loses any MUs and outright destroys a good deal of the cast on certain stages(i.e FD Sheik solidly beats every character minus ).

Spoiler: ban

View attachment 124543

Why do you think Sheik/Greninja is 55:45 as opposed to 60:40 or worse, when results and theory point strongly toward the latter? Is this due to your own experience or are there factors I'm not appreciating?

To anyone who wants to try - no, I'm not getting sucked into a ratio argument about what 55:45 and 60:40 mean or whether 5 points is a significant difference. Simply put, yes, there is a significant difference between 55:45 and 60:40. Though in this case Sheik/Greninja is probably worse than that anyway.

 

[PK Bash]

Good time to post the MU chart I made last week I guess. This is indicative of top level play, mind you. Potentially swap Diddy and Mario back and forth or just shove Mario to 55:45 but either way, this is it. I still don't think she loses any MUs and outright destroys a good deal of the cast on certain stages(i.e FD Sheik solidly beats every character minus ).

Spoiler: ban

View attachment 124543

is mentally draining for most and has to play matchups instead of coasting by on good tools. Not many top tiers ask that of you.
There are ~55 matchups in this game.
Most become easier or more difficult depending on MU knowledge and level of play.
If a Ryu and Sheik both don't know the matchup, the MU flops to something ridiculous like 60:40 Ryu favour.
She has more complicated information in just 2-3 moves(needles, fair, bf) than some characters have in their entire kits. Pretty much every matchup post patch has to be played differently from one another or else her unfortunate light+tall+fastfaller combination could make her lose to anyone.
Few examples.
. If you don't know things like the timing for walltech fair/bf, the spacing at which he can punish needles, PP combo trees, specific edgeguards like falling BF and dtilt 2 frames the MU becomes much harder.
. If you don't know that trying fair>jab mixups will just get you grabbed and that you can't fair string the character at all off a throw at 0, the MU becomes much harder.
. If you don't know Diddy's fair beats every jump-in approach you can attempt, needles make Diddy drop banana, or that monkey flip doesn't snap ledge normally, the MU becomes much harder.

If you don't know the rising fair "scoop" hitbox directly under the tip of the move doesn't pick up short characters like it does on you have a lot more trouble with the players.

Know character weights, know frame data, know fall speeds, know how other moves interact with yours, know how rage impacts your combos, know what's true, know what's not, know the 50/50s are, etc.
Sheik needs you to be the best, most knowledgeable player you can be. Probably moreso than every other character choice.
She has all the tools to destroy this game but requires a genius' head on a strong pair of shoulders to do so.

Would be very interested to know why you don't think Lucas is 60:40 or worse? I'm not necessarily disputing it - I know in theory Lucas has a stronger footsies game than eg Ness, but personally I would swear blind this does not translate into an objectively better Sheik MU. By this I mean I don't win vs Sheik any more often with Lucas than Ness(and as far as I'm concerned the end result is the important one), so I'm curious what you or anyone else makes of it.
If he truly does do this well vs Sheik, then damn - this character is already pretty solid and could go really far one day.
Edit: or maybe not then
Edit for TheGoodGuava: will disagree w/ you on this one. I won't write an essay but there is probably a case for Lucas actually having it worse than Ness (which isn't necessarily true but you can see the reasoning for sure), although the extent to which they lose is not massively important when picking one over the other is not going to give you any discernible advantage. Also FWIW Marth in Smash 4 is not even close to as bad as Marth in Brawl - or Sheik in Smash 4 (incidentally, it is a doable matchup - praise be to S1 - but its not madly enjoyable for Ness and victory is definitely unlikely). Marth's advantage yes, but a comparatively small advantage.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Ness's otherwise strong advantage state is ruined by sheiks burst mobility and her neutral counters his in almost every possible way. The only characters able to abuse his disadvantage better than Sheik are Rosa and possibly Marth. She is, for lack of a better phrase, the perfect counter to Ness.

Unlike Ness, Lucas can actually contest Sheik at mid range and his reward per conversion is equal to or greater than Sheiks. From what I know the matchup is mostly decided by the difference in disadvantage states. Sheik still has a top 3 disadvantage and that makes it hard for Lucas to press an advantage, but it's quite the opposite for Sheik advantage vs Lucas disadvantage

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Ness's otherwise strong advantage state is ruined by sheiks burst mobility and her neutral counters his in almost every possible way. The only characters able to abuse his disadvantage better than Sheik are Rosa and possibly Marth. She is, for lack of a better phrase, the perfect counter to Ness.

Unlike Ness, Lucas can actually contest Sheik at mid range and his reward per conversion is equal to or greater than Sheiks. From what I know the matchup is mostly decided by the difference in disadvantage states. Sheik still has a top 3 disadvantage and that makes it hard for Lucas to press an advantage, but it's quite the opposite for Sheik advantage vs Lucas disadvantage

Sheik is much worse for Ness than Marth is. She has more damaging combos/strings, Needles, and she's just as if not more effective at hitting him when he's offstage. The only thing that Marth has over Sheik to abuse Ness' disadvantage is more range and a counter.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Oh. Sorry.
I actually do think Sheik Lucas is 6:4. Must've overlooked it. This is still significantly better than Sheik Ness, which is 7:3 imo
and Greninja hovers between 55:45 and 6:4 but it's very difficult to decide on which.

 

[ARISTOS]

Good time to post the MU chart I made last week I guess. This is indicative of top level play, mind you. Potentially swap Diddy and Mario back and forth or just shove Mario to 55:45 but either way, this is it. I still don't think she loses any MUs and outright destroys a good deal of the cast on certain stages(i.e FD Sheik solidly beats every character minus ).

Spoiler: ban

View attachment 124543

is mentally draining for most and has to play matchups instead of coasting by on good tools. Not many top tiers ask that of you.
There are ~55 matchups in this game.
Most become easier or more difficult depending on MU knowledge and level of play.
If a Ryu and Sheik both don't know the matchup, the MU flops to something ridiculous like 60:40 Ryu favour.
She has more complicated information in just 2-3 moves(needles, fair, bf) than some characters have in their entire kits. Pretty much every matchup post patch has to be played differently from one another or else her unfortunate light+tall+fastfaller combination could make her lose to anyone.
Few examples.
. If you don't know things like the timing for walltech fair/bf, the spacing at which he can punish needles, PP combo trees, specific edgeguards like falling BF and dtilt 2 frames the MU becomes much harder.
. If you don't know that trying fair>jab mixups will just get you grabbed and that you can't fair string the character at all off a throw at 0, the MU becomes much harder.
. If you don't know Diddy's fair beats every jump-in approach you can attempt, needles make Diddy drop banana, or that monkey flip doesn't snap ledge normally, the MU becomes much harder.

If you don't know the rising fair "scoop" hitbox directly under the tip of the move doesn't pick up short characters like it does on you have a lot more trouble with the players.

Know character weights, know frame data, know fall speeds, know how other moves interact with yours, know how rage impacts your combos, know what's true, know what's not, know the 50/50s are, etc.
Sheik needs you to be the best, most knowledgeable player you can be. Probably moreso than every other character choice.
She has all the tools to destroy this game but requires a genius' head on a strong pair of shoulders to do so.

How do you think the generally plays out? I see you placed it as 55-45 for her.

 

[bc1910]

Greninja hovers between 55:45 and 6:4 but it's very difficult to decide on which.

Why, though? Specifically?

Not trying to put you on the spot, I'm interested in your reasoning.

 

[Deleted member]

Spoiler: monando boy MU chart

X = Considerable disadvantage

Shulk's biggest bracket threats and practically his hard counters. Basically requires for you to heavily outplay your opponent if you are both on equal skill levels or pray to god they don't know the Shulk MU properly. These characters have the tools in neutral to stuff out whatever Shulk has a good amount of the time and abuse his pretty poor disadvantage state to the point where you're just better off picking a secondary unless you want to conquer and that badly.

- - = Solid disadvantage

Not as hard as Fox or Diddy, but they are definitely struggles. Shulk can find important openings in these MUs and even win (such as Nicko's wins over K9, DYNAMO and VoiD , Kome winning over Komirikiri , Nicko having wins over Aphro and JK and Darkwolf being very adept at the Pikachu MU in his region) but it requires heavy MU knowledge on your part, almost to the point where you have to consider every option they have due to how "in your face" they can be. Most of the time you'll be reacting to their actions rather than going in because of how hard they can punish Shulk's approaches unless said approaches are really good (say like, Jump Art or something) and lead into good conversions.

- = Slight disadvantage

These characters tend have one (most of the time volatile) thing that tips the MU in their favor that Shulk dislikes, but otherwise Shulk can have a good fighting chance versus them.

=/- = Even or slight disadvantage

A gray area. Similar to what I said above, Shulk's opponent has something that he has to consistently respect throughout the entire match, but in this case it's much easier to work around and Shulk does well against them in neutral enough and even has to the tools himself to expose their most critical flaws.

=... is well, even.

This is pretty self-explanatory.

+ = Slight advantage

Shulk wins. Most of the time it's hard for the opponent to get around Shulk's range, edgeguarding & mobility, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't be mindful of their tools.

++ = Solid advantage

Ditto as above, but Shulk's advantages are more prominent against these characters. Even then, do not sleep.

Unclear

Haven't fought enough good players of these characters to determine how the MU goes. Little Mac is heavily stage dependent and if Shulk played extremely campy and noncommittal on the right stage then Mac wouldn't be able to do much anyways, and there's how effective his edgeguarding is against Mac. The rest I just know jack**** about since coming across players of them is so rare.

Decided to post my matchup chart, my other one being from a couple months back. Gave some insight in the spoiler.

 

[HoSmash4]

I'm pretty reserved compared to FeelMeUp when it comes to Sheik matchups, but personally I'd put Fox 55:45.

Results wise Larry is positive on every Sheik. Void is positive on every Fox except Larry where he is 19-18 in his favour. People often talk about how good Void is vs Fox but Void has played fox all his life. (k0rean in Hawaii, xzax and Larry at skys) What people don't talk much about is Larry destroying solid Sheik's such as Vinnie or Karna.

Moreover I see it as 55;45 for sheik, pretty much due to sheik edgeguarding fox although if the Fox is 100% proficient at Teching and manages Firefox well, Sheik has to rely on untechabbles, clipping fox side b with a tilt to ensure kills. Damage is still damage of course! Hard reading fox recovery offstage with a BF is always an option once it kills.

Both only gain stage positioning with throws at kill % (sheik has fthrow BF but % range much limited compared to pre patch dthrow/fthrow). 'Only' isn't doing it justice as both characters have some of the most deadly advantage States in the game.

Both have extremely damaging combos, on each other eg dair footstool for fox on sheik, perfect pivot utilts on sheik. For sheik she has ftilt dtilt ftilt regrab fthrow BF, perfect pivot tilt extensions etc. Both are extremely fast characters which makes poking safely in neutral not as effective as for example vs Shulk

 

[ARGHETH]

Spoiler: monando boy MU chart

View attachment 124555

X = Considerable disadvantage

Shulk's biggest bracket threats and practically his hard counters. Basically requires for you to heavily outplay your opponent if you are both on equal skill levels or pray to god they don't know the Shulk MU properly. These characters have the tools in neutral to stuff out whatever Shulk has a good amount of the time and abuse his pretty poor disadvantage state to the point where you're just better off picking a secondary unless you want to conquer and that badly.

- - = Solid disadvantage

Not as hard as Fox or Diddy, but they are definitely struggles. Shulk can find important openings in these MUs and even win (such as Nicko's wins over K9, DYNAMO and VoiD , Kome winning over Komirikiri , Nicko having wins over Aphro and JK and Darkwolf being very adept at the Pikachu MU in his region) but it requires heavy MU knowledge on your part, almost to the point where you have to consider every option they have due to how "in your face" they can be. Most of the time you'll be reacting to their actions rather than going in because of how hard they can punish Shulk's approaches unless said approaches are really good (say like, Jump Art or something) and lead into good conversions.

- = Slight disadvantage

These characters tend have one (most of the time volatile) thing that tips the MU in their favor that Shulk dislikes, but otherwise Shulk can have a good fighting chance versus them.

=/- = Even or slight disadvantage

A gray area. Similar to what I said above, Shulk's opponent has something that he has to consistently respect throughout the entire match, but in this case it's much easier to work around and Shulk does well against them in neutral enough and even has to the tools himself to expose their most critical flaws.

=... is well, even.

This is pretty self-explanatory.

+ = Slight advantage

Shulk wins. Most of the time it's hard for the opponent to get around Shulk's range, edgeguarding & mobility, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't be mindful of their tools.

++ = Solid advantage

Ditto as above, but Shulk's advantages are more prominent against these characters. Even then, do not sleep.

Unclear

Haven't fought enough good players of these characters to determine how the MU goes. Little Mac is heavily stage dependent and if Shulk played extremely campy and noncommittal on the right stage then Mac wouldn't be able to do much anyways, and there's how effective his edgeguarding is against Mac. The rest I just know jack**** about since coming across players of them is so rare.

Decided to post my matchup chart, my other one being from a couple months back. Gave some insight in the spoiler.

Hmm. What makes Corrin the worst swordfighter?

 

[Deleted member]

Hmm. What makes Corrin the worst swordfighter?

Pin, and Corrin's ledge game in general. If you don't snap the ledge when recovering you're easily eating a tipper fsmash or pin. There is also the clear difference in frame data between the two, and Corrin is good at covering Shulk's jump ins with bair and nair. It's a pretty obnoxious matchup but Shulk's damaging grab game in Buster along with Corrin being pretty easy to edgeguard all things considered makes it somewhat fine for Shulk when he's in advantage. Corrin's counter is also a threat due to the laggy nature of most of Shulk's moves. If you utilt Corrin on one of the platforms of Battlefield, you'll get hit since Shulk extends his hand out when performing the move.

 

[MistressRemilia]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

So i don't even agree or care about it, but i just wanted some of you people to watch how many blanks there are.
Take notes, because we all know, and you should know that you haven't played or watched a single competent Ganondorf ( and many other characters ) take on about half of the cast at a serious level. In these cases i've just mentionned, you'll usually miss out on the practical aspect of the matchup, that usually ends up turning the table upside down, because, say, not many players can camp & be non commital for a whole match. Wherever its a matter of playstyle or habit, matchups can turn out as much more different than you'd think. This is especially true for the characters with a passable neutral and good advantage/clutch factor.

So yeah, when you don't know, you don't know. End of the story.

 

[meticulousboy]

I don't know much, but I think to answer the question about how Sheik vs. Peach plays out, I believe the match involves Peach more so trying to connect Dair rather than fishing for grabs. Sheik's Needles don't do much when float is a thing. Also, it's not easy for Sheik to land a Uair KO on Peach because Peach is the second slowest faller. Here's a vid from a year ago, though. This might help.

 

[soniczx123]

Where can you find VODs for Don't Park on the Grass Smash 4 Top 8? Can't seem to find it anywhere on YouTube.