Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Nathan Richardson]

I always found zard's jab2 cancel took way too long to get into another move, the opponent would always jump/air dodge out of the way.

 

[verbatim]

What gives you the idea that these upsets are "random"?

I'm not saying that they're random, I'm saying that the characters got a lot of hype attributed to them that didn't necessarily translate into consistent results the way it did for pre patch MK or Mewtwo (to name a few examples).

I think everyone brought up in the context of this conversation is viable, including Bowser. I said "good" since that was the word used by the previous poster.

 

[Kung Fu Treachery]

So essentially what you're saying is Bowser is more of a punish character than a straight up aggressive character?

He's saying that easy throw combos and kill confirms are incredibly goddamn powerful.

Both of these things, but the latter much more so. As far as Bowser being a punish character, I'd certainly say so. He doesn't have the speed to pressure you that much, and nearly all of the bad things he can do to you (shield grab and Up-B out of shield in particular) happen when you attack him with something unsafe.

But to reiterate, SaltyKracka gets to the heart of it. Kill confirms are a huge deal. The game is about buckets. There's a reason why many muddled low and mid tiers got buffs in the form of easy, guaranteed kills from the grab (Bowser, DK, Robin), and why current top tiers got them nerfed out of their kits (Sheik, Diddy).

EDIT: Sheik's was a 50/50, to be fair.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Again this is why being a character loyalist stinks, Nintendo gave zard buffs but in the grand scheme of things they were kinda laughable. A good grab that can kill (beaten out by M2 and Ness), decreased landing lag (not decreased remotely enough to escape brutal punishes by just about everyone else), an increase in air speed (only slightly, I think only Little Mac and Ganondorf have slower air speeds but idk). Essentially all of zards buffs really don't help him move up tiers in the grand scheme of things. What would've helped? Much higher air speed (he's 48th on the character list for that last I checked make him 30th or something, he can FLY the air speed should reflect that!), and give him higher hit stun on his grab moves to give him hard to use but doable combos on his up and backwards grabs (he can instantly go into a dash off his back grab so he should be able to at least make something out of it).

 

[Aaron1997]

Bowser beats cloud, That is all

But seriously, This seems awful for cloud. D-tilt on the ledge destroys him, Up-smash is invulnerable and Bowsers Reward is to much for Cloud

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Flare Blitz is not relevant burst mobility to escape disadvantage because it takes him too far and it's far too easy to react to and chase unless the character is very slow.

His armoured options are all very heavy commitments that all lose to shield and can often be spaced around.

Lingering hitbox on DAir still doesn't last that long, there's still 15 frames before Zard is able to autocancel the move after the hitbox ends and it has a ton of landing lag with no landing hitbox so it has to be used high and early.

Slow, high commitment aerials and poor aerial physics alongside lacking a solid answer to cross-ups means that he still struggles quite a bit in disadvantage. However the crux is that he's very durable and can take more hits than most of the cast in a good number of match-ups. He can afford to take the hits, but he's pretty bad not getting around getting hit.

However, I concur with what you said about his neutral. Zard's neutral is comfortably better than Bowser and DK's. Jab, Flamethrower, USmash and FAir alongside his ground mobility supplement this.

Charizards disadvantage isnt good by any means, but its not ****ing horrendous like DK, DDD, and Gannons are.

I wouldn't say Flare Blitz is irrelevant, there are some matchups vs slower characters like Peach and Luigi where it can be a legitimate option and the same goes for rock smash against characters with poor range like Mario. I also forgot to mention b reverse FT and nair

 

[arbustopachon]

Zard buffs where great.

He went from hilariously bad to actually playable. Like vanilla Zard's Jab didn't even combo properly, U-smash was extremely janky and his u-throw sucked.

Buffs gave him a combo throw, a not useless air speed, weight, an actually good bair, made fair kill like 25% earlier, made d-tilt a better horizontal poke, made it so his f-tilt wasn't just a slower d-tilt, transformed his u-throw into a kill throw that doubles as a combo throw and deals 11%, invinsibility frames on f-smash, a jab that works, an easy way to jablock thanks to his improved u-smash, numerous hitbox size increases (specially notorious in bair), increased damage in all his aerials and numerous random increases in kbg and bkb. All in exchange of a smaller hitbox on nair, extra recoil damage in flare blitz and taking away his surprisingly early killing d-throw (tho f-throw is still great at horizontal kills so he doesn't really miss it).

Like vanilla Zard was by far one of the worst characters in the game. Now he is just another ambiguous low tier no one agrees on how good or bad he is.

On the subject of flare blitz on his disadvantaged state it is relevant against slower characters. Flare blitz air endlag is deceptibly shorter than the grounded endlag.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

October Results Brief Write-up. By Das_Koopa/BarnardsLoop/Zero_Destroyer (Late, but here!)

Top 8 Weighted and the long-term tracking from March 15th to now:

Spoiler: Top 8 Weighted

Spoiler: Top 8 Weighted

Cloud: 171.5
Bayonetta: 151
Diddy Kong: 136
Sheik: 126
Sonic: 123
Fox: 102
Mewtwo: 88.5
Mario: 79.5
Zero Suit Samus: 72
Greninja: 59
Rosalina & Luma: 58
Ryu: 50.5
Meta Knight: 49
Marth: 47
Mega Man: 39
Captain Falcon: 34
Donkey Kong: 33.5
Ness: 32.5
R.O.B: 31
Olimar: 31
Pikachu: 28.5
Villager: 28
Wario: 26
Toon Link: 25
Corrin: 23.5
Luigi: 22.5
Yoshi: 22
Bowser: 21.5
Lucas: 20
Robin: 19
Lucina: 18
Lucario: 17.5
Peach: 16
Mr. Game & Watch: 16
Charizard: 16
Little Mac: 13.5
Pit: 11.5
Palutena: 10
Roy: 8.5
Wii Fit Trainer: 8.5
Pac-Man: 6
Ike: 6
Link: 5
Shulk: 5
Samus: 4
Kirby: 2.5
Duck Hunt: 2
King Dedede: 2
Falco: 2
Bowser Jr.: 2
Mii Brawler: 1
Jigglypuff: 1

Spoiler: Top 16 Upper Category

Sheik: 356.5
Diddy Kong: 344.5
Cloud: 306
Sonic: 236
Mario: 235.5
Zero Suit Samus: 220.5
Fox: 216
Bayonetta: 186
Rosalina & Luma: 177
Mewtwo: 169
Mega Man: 115
Marth: 104.5
Toon Link: 97
Meta Knight: 91.5
Olimar: 78
Donkey Kong: 69
Captain Falcon: 68
Ryu: 62.5
Peach: 61.5
Greninja: 58
Villager: 56.5
Corrin: 55
Pit: 49.5
Ness: 49
Luigi: 46.5
Pikachu: 46.5
Lucario: 39.5
R.O.B: 37.5
Lucas: 30
Yoshi: 25.5
Palutena: 22
Ike: 22
Pac-Man: 20
Bowser: 19.5
Link: 19
Little Mac: 19
Wario: 18
Wii Fit Trainer: 18
Mr. Game & Watch: 18
Robin: 17.5
Duck Hunt: 17
Lucina: 16
Samus: 9
Roy: 7
Shulk: 7
Kirby: 6.5
Bowser Jr.: 6
Charizard: 3
King Dedede: 1

Spoiler: Top 16 March 15th-Onwards

Diddy Kong: 1039
Sheik: 931.5
Cloud: 883
Bayonetta: 755.5
Sonic: 713
Fox: 683.5
Mario: 617
Zero Suit Samus: 501.5
Rosalina & Luma: 485
Mewtwo: 407.5
Ryu: 336
Meta Knight: 317
Captain Falcon: 308
Ness: 292.5
R.O.B: 279
Marth: 273
Toon Link: 265.5
Mega Man: 259.5
Greninja: 257.5
Peach: 227
Corrin: 224.5
Luigi: 204.5
Donkey Kong: 203.5
Yoshi: 199
Villager: 190.5
Pikachu: 188
Olimar: 181
Lucario: 160
Bowser: 150.5
Robin: 134
Lucas: 125
Ike: 116.5
Wario: 114.5
Little Mac: 110.5
Pit: 93.5
Link: 88
Mr. Game & Watch: 87
Palutena: 87
Pac-Man: 70.5
Samus: 61
Duck Hunt: 58
Wii Fit Trainer: 50.5
Charizard: 48
Shulk: 47
Roy: 43
Lucina: 43
King Dedede: 40.5
Bowser Jr.: 36
Kirby: 35
Falco: 29
Mii Brawler: 18
Jigglypuff: 17
Zelda: 15
Ganondorf: 11.5
Dr. Mario: 11
Mii Gunner: 5
Dark Pit: 5
Mii Swordfighter: 0

Methodology (Updated)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m_3mnTm2CUhlxzi-vlN29OwEbQlUcJN6V1em2cX8aAw/edit

Results Thread
https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/

Previous Month
https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...tive-impressions.440784/page-80#post-21479255

*Results thread will be fully updated to last weekend's results by tonight, both scores and tournaments in the database. I'll try to not let this get ahead of me so badly again <_<

November results write-up + announcement, by Das_Koopa/BarnardsLoop/Zero_Destroyer

Spoiler: Top 8 Weighted Chart

Spoiler: Top 8 Weighted

Cloud: 226.5
Bayonetta: 199.5
Diddy Kong: 187
Sheik: 171.5
Sonic: 163.5
Fox: 147
Mario: 114
Mewtwo: 97.5
Zero Suit Samus: 95
Rosalina & Luma: 83
Meta Knight: 81.5
Marth: 70.5
Greninja: 62
Ryu: 57.5
Mega Man: 52
R.O.B: 50
Ness: 47.5
Captain Falcon: 47.5
Pikachu: 46
Corrin: 45
Villager: 38.5
Donkey Kong: 38.5
Wario: 37.5
Olimar: 36.5
Peach: 34
Toon Link: 32
Luigi: 30
Yoshi: 28
Bowser: 26.5
Lucas: 25
Lucina: 24.5
Robin: 24
Pit: 22.5
Lucario: 20.5
Charizard: 20.5
Little Mac: 16.5
Wii Fit Trainer: 16.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 16
Palutena: 15
Ike: 12
Samus: 11
Roy: 8.5
Shulk: 8
King Dedede: 8
Pac-Man: 7
Link: 5
Kirby: 5
Duck Hunt: 5
Falco: 3
Bowser Jr.: 2
Mii Brawler: 1
Jigglypuff: 1
Zelda: 1

Spoiler: Top 16 Upper Category

Diddy Kong: 375.5
Sheik: 368.5
Cloud: 336
Mario: 258
Sonic: 245
Zero Suit Samus: 236
Fox: 228.5
Bayonetta: 218
Rosalina & Luma: 180
Mewtwo: 177
Mega Man: 122
Marth: 111.5
Toon Link: 100
Meta Knight: 99.5
Olimar: 80
Captain Falcon: 70
Donkey Kong: 69
Peach: 67.5
Ryu: 64.5
Greninja: 61
Villager: 56.5
Pikachu: 55.5
Corrin: 55
Luigi: 50.5
Pit: 49.5
Ness: 49
R.O.B: 46.5
Lucario: 44.5
Lucas: 30
Wario: 29.5
Yoshi: 27.5
Pac-Man: 24
Palutena: 22
Ike: 22
Bowser: 19.5
Link: 19
Little Mac: 19
Robin: 18.5
Wii Fit Trainer: 18
Mr. Game & Watch: 18
Duck Hunt: 17
Lucina: 16
Samus: 12
Charizard: 7.5
Roy: 7
Shulk: 7
Kirby: 6.5
Bowser Jr.: 6
King Dedede: 1

Spoiler: Top 16 Tracking, March 15th-Present

Diddy Kong: 1126
Sheik: 1009.5
Cloud: 975
Bayonetta: 869
Sonic: 788.5
Fox: 779
Mario: 688.5
Zero Suit Samus: 544.5
Rosalina & Luma: 539
Mewtwo: 433
Meta Knight: 364.5
Ryu: 350
Captain Falcon: 332.5
Ness: 324.5
R.O.B: 322.5
Marth: 318.5
Toon Link: 284.5
Mega Man: 278.5
Corrin: 271.5
Greninja: 269.5
Peach: 264
Luigi: 226
Pikachu: 220.5
Yoshi: 217
Donkey Kong: 216.5
Villager: 215
Olimar: 190.5
Lucario: 181
Bowser: 161.5
Robin: 149
Lucas: 136
Ike: 131.5
Wario: 130
Little Mac: 123.5
Pit: 108
Palutena: 97
Link: 88.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 87
Pac-Man: 79.5
Samus: 77
Wii Fit Trainer: 66.5
Duck Hunt: 66
Charizard: 53.5
Shulk: 52
King Dedede: 50.5
Roy: 45.5
Lucina: 45.5
Kirby: 41.5
Bowser Jr.: 36
Falco: 32
Jigglypuff: 19
Mii Brawler: 18
Zelda: 18
Dr. Mario: 12
Ganondorf: 11.5
Dark Pit: 5.5
Mii Gunner: 5
Mii Swordfighter: 0

How? This guy literally has three different hardcounters, a matchup against Cloud of all characters that is looking nearly as bad and further problematic matchups down the whole tierlist from Ryu down to Kirby.

Captain Falcon ist not a high tier character. At least he is not top 20.

He gets bopped by Sheik and Bayo, has some trouble with Pikachu, then everything else is about even. Don't know where you got Cloud from cause Cloud's not bad at all, he's super easy to combo, juggle, and edge guard. He's got a solid neutral, amazing advantage, but poor disadvantage.

Let's look at results for a moment. (Thank you Das Koopa for this project, keep up the good work man.) I've included results from October and November.

According to Das Koopa's results, Falcon's top 8 and top 16 rankings typically have him around the 13-16th position.
So according to November's Top 8 results, these are the characters we can say are better than Falcon in terms of results
are:
Cloud, Bayonetta, Diddy Kong, Sheik, Sonic, Fox, Mario, Mewtwo, ZSS, Rosalina & Luma, Meta Knight, Marth, Greninja, Ryu, Mega Man, ROB, and Ness.

17 characters have better results as of November.
Now results aren't everything and we should all know that. These are the characters I think are actually better than Falcon:

Cloud, Bayonetta, Diddy Kong, Sheik, Sonic, Fox, Mario, Mewtwo, ZSS, Rosalina & Luma, Meta Knight, Marth, Ryu, Villager, Corrin, Toon Link, Pikachu.

Corrin, Villager, Toon Link and Pikachu were added, Greninja (who I think is the spot right behind Falcon), ROB and Ness were removed.

As I said, results aren't everything, but this character has been in the same general area results wise (13-16th) since the patch dropped in March and he was even in that general area in 1.1.5. That's at least 9 months of consistent results. Falcon is definitely High Tier, but he's not in the upper end of it.

EDIT: VoiD take it 3-2 over Leo, sending him into losers.
It was really close, last stock, last hit scenario. Still think the match up is even.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Zard buffs where great.

He went from hilariously bad to actually playable. Like vanilla Zard's Jab didn't even combo properly, U-smash was extremely janky and his u-throw sucked.

Buffs gave him a combo throw, a not useless air speed, weight, an actually good bair, made fair kill like 25% earlier, made d-tilt a better horizontal poke, made it so his f-tilt wasn't just a slower d-tilt, transformed his u-throw into a kill throw that doubles as a combo throw and deals 11%, invinsibility frames on f-smash, a jab that works, an easy way to jablock thanks to his improved u-smash, numerous hitbox size increases (specially notorious in bair), increased damage in all his aerials and numerous random increases in kbg and bkb. All in exchange of a smaller hitbox on nair, extra recoil damage in flare blitz and taking away his surprisingly early killing d-throw (tho f-throw is still great at horizontal kills so he doesn't really miss it).

Like vanilla Zard was by far one of the worst characters in the game. Now he is just another ambiguous low tier no one agrees on how good or bad he is.

On the subject of flare blitz on his disadvantaged state it is relevant against slower characters. Flare blitz air endlag is deceptibly shorter than the grounded endlag.

That is some good news but as improved as he was over old zard new zard isn't phenomenal, his jablock only works if an opponent is next to him or larger, the best character to jablock surprisingly is other zards which due to how noone can agree where he stands are a super rarity. His kb has always been good but he's kind of a high KB medium damage character who doesn't do remotely as much damage as the super heavyweights who can do more damage with their moves than zard can do with his. I'm not denying that the buffs made him better it's just that this pales in comparison to the rest of the cast who can combo into kill confirms while zard can't.

 

[G. Stache]

I wouldn't say Flare Blitz is irrelevant, there are some matchups vs slower characters like Peach and Luigi where it can be a legitimate option

Umm, if Luigi shields flare blitz then that's a free jab lock with fireball and an up b to kill Zard at around 70%. Way too risky in most situations for Zard and the only time I would recommend flare blitz is against a Luigi spamming fireballs, since the move cut rights through them and is a hard punish. Even then, on a good player (who probably wouldn't spam fireballs in the first place) it wouldn't really work after the first or second time. So, no. I wouldn't call flare blitz too valuable against Luigi. Peach might be a different story, but I wouldn't know.

 

[TDK]

his disadvantage is probably the best of the superheavies. Burst mobility, super armor landing options, decent recovery with good mixups, and a lingering hitbox on dair are things that other superheavies can only dream of
He's fast with good spacing tools, good oos in up b and up smash, and good cqc in neutral. Thats actually fairly good character design.
the only thing that doesn't apply to him well was the advantage part. His advantage state is less reward focused and more ledge focused

People massively overrate his ability to land. Your super armour option is laggy, telegraphed, and loses to sheild and Nair gets outranged super easily. They just aren't good options. Flare Blitz as a burst mobility tool is laughable. Zard's recovery is really linear and actually somehow manages to be bad vertically for a character with multiple midair jumps, and the lingering hitbox on Dair isn't anything to write home about.

His Bair and Fair are good spacing tools but I can't tell you how many times I've short hop faired, missed, and then died because my opponent punished me. Up-B is an alright OOS but if you miss good luck landing because Zard sucks at landing. He can try to play neutral to some extent but his disadvantage is trash (Even if it's the best for a heavy people heavily overblow how good Rock Smash and Nair are to land), and he has the weakest advantage state out of all the heavies because no kill confirm (It's a BIG DEAL.) and while he can trap at the ledge decently it's more like "I'm gonna go here please commit to this option" and not "I'm just gonna cover multiple options". He also kills a lot later off of stray hits than Bowser or DK.

So no, his advantage is what kills the character since it's really weak.

 

[bc1910]

Corrin, Villager, Toon Link and Pikachu were added, Greninja (who I think is the spot right behind Falcon), ROB and Ness were removed.

Greninja is better than Falcon. Better results, better MUs, better theory.

He is almost as good at the main thing Falcon is good at (obnoxious mid-range attack/dashgrab/movement mixups) as Falcon himself and has a lot more going for him besides, including a recovery and disadvantage state that aren't utter fodder for top tiers.

People can't shaft a character like Greninja for lacklustre results and then disregard the results when it no longer suits their theory. It happens to Lucas as well. Shows a bad case of confirmation bias.

This isn't "overrating" Greninja by the way, this is taking him completely at face value. A 15-20th high tier who has shown to be better than Falcon.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Props to Locus but this reconfirms it again.

As long as Diddy exists along with Rosaluma, Megaman and Bayo, Ryu is high tier and never going up or winning anything big.

 

[|RK|]

Props to Locus but this reconfirms it again.

As long as Diddy exists along with Rosaluma, Megaman and Bayo, Ryu is high tier and never going up or winning anything big.

I wouldn't say this confirms it. ZeRo is very much an outlier, and he was playing like a madman. He'd have done that to most other players in that situation.

Plus Locus took out two top Bayos at this tourney in Saj and 9B.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I would need to see vods cuz in neutral Ryu can't really...make Bayo do anything. Which means they gave Ryu something. Which means they deserve to die a miserable death.

 

[TDK]

2GGT: ZeRo Saga top 8

Winners side:
Ally vs Larry Lurr
Nairo vs VoiD

Losers Side:
ZeRo vs Komorikiri
ANTi vs MKLeo

 

[meticulousboy]

I think if Bowser had better landing options, he might have what it takes to reach high tier. If I were to guess, this may have been why Toon Link went from mid tier to high tier: Bomb helps cover the ground for him if he's trying to land.

 

[Yonder]

2GGT: ZeRo Saga top 8

Winners side:
Ally vs Larry Lurr
Nairo vs VoiD

Losers Side:
ZeRo vs Komorikiri
ANTi vs MKLeo

So Mario wins for most solo reps this time around. That's something of note.

 

[Goombo]

He gets bopped by Sheik and Bayo, has some trouble with Pikachu, then everything else is about even.

Just because ESAM being ESAM and losing that matchup one time doesnt mean the it is anything better than 65:35, so no "some trouble".

The Ryu matchup never looked close to even, the other example I mentioned, Kirby, has a lack of top level footage, but doesn't look nice at all in theory.

Don't know where you got Cloud from cause Cloud's not bad at all, he's super easy to combo, juggle, and edge guard. He's got a solid neutral, amazing advantage, but poor disadvantage.

Okay, let's go over it:
Cloud most likely wins neutral, but let's assume that one is even.
Yes, Falcon is good at juggeling Cloud. Just Cloud juggles Falcon as hard as you can possible juggle someone in Smash 4. In this matchup Clouds Upthrow basically turns into a combo throw or something worse.
Cloud has the ability to edgeguard Falcon with Nair and LCS harder than Falcon can edgeguard him. If that is the case you probably f***ed up big in your Cloud matchup.

There are no sets the top 4 Clouds have lost to Captain Falcon. In fact they barely even lost GAMES.
ZeRo calling the MU "beyond trash" in his money match with Leo also says something.

Let's look at results for a moment.

Looking at these kind of results is misleading, they display the average placing at tournaments, not the potential a character has to win an event at the highest level, which is what a tier list is about.
This is where a character like Falcon falls off, he can get relatively far with bracket luck from time to time, but his bad matchups (which he has more/worse than most other characters around his level on Das Koopas ranking) will prevent him nearly completely from winning a major tournament.

And this is still ignoring the fact that his disproportionate big playerbase lets him look better on the ranking than other characters on his powerlevel do.

These are the characters I think are actually better than Falcon:
Cloud, Bayonetta, Diddy Kong, Sheik, Sonic, Fox, Mario, Mewtwo, ZSS, Rosalina & Luma, Meta Knight, Marth, Ryu, Villager, Corrin, Toon Link, Pikachu.

Like bc1910 mentioned, Greninja too is overall a better character.
Lucina as well. I guess not much explanation is needed.
What about the Pits? Screw results, it's easy to see they are way more solid characters than Captain Falcon.
Mega Man sure has his own problems, but seems overall to be better too.

I would personally argue that at least Lucas, Robin, Lucario and Peach are also slightly better characters, but let's not argue about them, this was about top 20.

 

[|RK|]

Kameme vs ANTi proves that a counterpick is useless unless your CP can also beat the other person's CP. Or it's game 5. But you can't bring it out for game 4 - that's an easy L. Actually, that's why KidGoggles vs Vinnie was so smart - Goggles was able to beat Vinnie's Rosa with Kirby. If he couldn't that wouldn't work out as well.

I would need to see vods cuz in neutral Ryu can't really...make Bayo do anything. Which means they gave Ryu something. Which means they deserve to die a miserable death.

Well, I dunno about Locus vs Saj, but I do know that Locus vs 9B was streamed. I do recall that a Bat Within didn't save 9B from a spike...

And out of curiosity - why can't Ryu make Bayo do anything? Whenever I hear that, I think of a character that isn't particularly dangerous even with a percent lead. Ryu can force approaches through percent lead though, right? And hell - isn't he also scary *without* the percent lead due to the ability to reach max rage easily and take out a stock in an instant? Ryu strikes me as a character that can't force anything if you have a stock lead on him, but other than that?

I know you're our resident Ryu expert, so these are genuine questions.

 

[TDK]

https://twitter.com/MasonCharlton/status/803461661860380672

Look what I found

 

[ARGHETH]

I would personally argue that at least Lucas, Robin, Lucario and Peach are also slightly better characters, but let's not argue about them, this was about top 20.

Uhh...IDK about Robin. He's good, but saying he's better than Falcon is seriously underrating Falcon

 

[Emblem Lord]

Kameme vs ANTi proves that a counterpick is useless unless your CP can also beat the other person's CP. Or it's game 5. But you can't bring it out for game 4 - that's an easy L. Actually, that's why KidGoggles vs Vinnie was so smart - Goggles was able to beat Vinnie's Rosa with Kirby. If he couldn't that wouldn't work out as well.




Well, I dunno about Locus vs Saj, but I do know that Locus vs 9B was streamed. I do recall that a Bat Within didn't save 9B from a spike...

And out of curiosity - why can't Ryu make Bayo do anything? Whenever I hear that, I think of a character that isn't particularly dangerous even with a percent lead. Ryu can force approaches through percent lead though, right? And hell - isn't he also scary *without* the percent lead due to the ability to reach max rage easily and take out a stock in an instant? Ryu strikes me as a character that can't force anything if you have a stock lead on him, but other than that?

I know you're our resident Ryu expert, so these are genuine questions.

It's going to sound depressing, but her hitboxes are just flat out better. They beat his clean head on. She does not ever need to fear a footsie interaction. Especially since her neutral pokes convert better then his.

And he cannot ever really jump at her or invade her space.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Umm, if Luigi shields flare blitz then that's a free jab lock with fireball and an up b to kill Zard at around 70%. Way too risky in most situations for Zard and the only time I would recommend flare blitz is against a Luigi spamming fireballs, since the move cut rights through them and is a hard punish. Even then, on a good player (who probably wouldn't spam fireballs in the first place) it wouldn't really work after the first or second time. So, no. I wouldn't call flare blitz too valuable against Luigi. Peach might be a different story, but I wouldn't know.

why would Charizard be Flare Blitzing in neutral? Its a way to reset to neutral, not to win the neutral

His Bair and Fair are good spacing tools but I can't tell you how many times I've short hop faired, missed, and then died because my opponent punished me. Up-B is an alright OOS but if you miss good luck landing because Zard sucks at landing. He can try to play neutral to some extent but his disadvantage is trash (Even if it's the best for a heavy people heavily overblow how good Rock Smash and Nair are to land), and he has the weakest advantage state out of all the heavies because no kill confirm (It's a BIG DEAL.) and while he can trap at the ledge decently it's more like "I'm gonna go here please commit to this option" and not "I'm just gonna cover multiple options". He also kills a lot later off of stray hits than Bowser or DK.

So because you cant use fair properly, its a weakness of Zard's? Up B excels at getting characters like Mario and Fox who focus on close up pressure off of you, you shouldn't be using it against a sword where its guaranteed to miss, we use JC up smash for that. You're also acting as if there's no such thing as a mixups in disadvantage. He can land with B reverse FT, nair, dair, RS, or stall with his 2 jumps. You guess that hes going to use nair to try and land so you try and beat it with a Falcon up air but instead he uses RS. Now youre going to take 20%, get stuck in disadvantage, and edgeguarded to death at 50%. Flare Blitz is an amazing tool against slower characters because they don't have the mobility to punish it.
Your idea of Zard's ledge game is wrong in so many ways, the thing about not covering multiple options actually made me laugh a little bit. Up smash covers ledge getup, ledge roll, ledge attack, neutral getup, and ledge jump if timed correctly. He can force low recoveries with FT because of the "one second rule" he can occasionally get a free f smash out of it
He kills later but that doesn't mean he kills late lmao

 

[TDK]

So because you cant use fair properly, its a weakness of Zard's?

you misunderstand me.

If you see Zard jump you should already know what to do because the Jump is super slow and his airspeed is trash. He doesn't really space you out with Fair, he picks a spot, puts his claw there, and prays that you're going to still be there.

 

[Das Koopa]

Another major, another unsuccessful pocket Bayo. Rip Komo.

 

[|RK|]

It's going to sound depressing, but her hitboxes are just flat out better. They beat his clean head on. She does not ever need to fear a footsie interaction. Especially since her neutral pokes convert better then his.

And he cannot ever really jump at her or invade her space.

Does defensive play work well against her? Even if button for button Ryu loses, can bait and punish work?

 

[Emblem Lord]

How do you bait and punish someone with superior movement specs and doesn't need to fear mid range interactions. Baits work due to potential threats.

I mean you are right thats what he has to do. But I think he loses because he isn't scary enough in the match.

Is this not the case in all matches where one character is superior to the other?

 

[meticulousboy]

Do you have any particular examples? It's hard for me to really relate. I wouldn't be surprised if Palutena is an example. She scares me whenever I get grabbed by her.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Goombo Tier Lists take pretty much all valid results into account. International will have more weight than locals obviously, but results are results. Supposed to be a snapshot of the metagame as a whole. Large locals count as part of the metagame.

That and the people who vote on the tier lists use those very rankings that were pointed out to you. Don't get to dismiss them, they are in fact used in the tier list. The entire list of results, not just the internationals. End of the day, Falcon has very good, consistent results. He's high tier. No way around it: you don't get as high as 13th in overall standings while being a mid tier. Doesn't matter how large your fanbase is, it just ain't happening without something built into the character to allow it at the higher level due to how Das Koopa's system works. A single good placement at a major is worth much much much more than small locals that barely make the cut.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

you misunderstand me.

If you see Zard jump you should already know what to do because the Jump is super slow and his airspeed is trash. He doesn't really space you out with Fair, he picks a spot, puts his claw there, and prays that you're going to still be there.

Zards fair + jumpsquat is 16 frames, i'm not sure what kind of drugs you're on if you can react to that

 

[SaltyKracka]

Zards fair + jumpsquat is 16 frames, i'm not sure what kind of drugs you're on if you can react to that

This is Sm4sh. I'm not sure what kind of drugs you're on if you can't.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

This is Sm4sh. I'm not sure what kind of drugs you're on if you can't.

12 frames is average reaction time, the 6 frames of input lag + 1 frame for shield to come up makes it damn near impossible to react to.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

As happy as I am that people are arguing over my main (both defending and bashing it heck I bashed it a few posts back but put in some constructive comments about how he could be better) I think I'm going to stay out of it, as soon as people argue over frame rate data my brain goes "uh duhhhh" the only thing I know is 60 frames is one second, any frame within ten is ok because reaction time when I asked is 17. Now it's 16? Er what?

 

[|RK|]

How do you bait and punish someone with superior movement specs and doesn't need to fear mid range interactions. Baits work due to potential threats.

I mean you are right thats what he has to do. But I think he loses because he isn't scary enough in the match.

Is this not the case in all matches where one character is superior to the other?

That's fair. I'd imagine, then, that one reason Ryu will continue to beat Bayos is just psychology. Ryu is very scary for players, even if not for the other character.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

12 frames is average reaction time, the 6 frames of input lag + 1 frame for shield to come up makes it damn near impossible to react to.

I'd argue that the average smash player reaction time is probably just a little faster, let's say around 10 frames. That makes the window a little more manageable. However, if you're playing this game a lot at a high level, you're going to be used to certain scenarios and more likely to suspect them, making it easier to react to because you've been in the situation before. So even if a person fighting Zard had an average reaction time of 12 frames, they'd likely still be able to react to it if they're at least somewhat familiar with the basics of Zard's neutral.

This isn't about Zard, but something that's interesting is just how much Nairo is switching off of ZSS. He lost game 1 vs VoiD, switched to Lucina, now he's on Bowser and he's getting bodi- scratch that, he got bodied, he's lost.
It seems like Nairo just doesn't think his ZSS (or potentially ZSS in general? Food for thought.) has what it takes anymore.

 

[PK Gaming]

I need to repent

All of you "Marth is a clean top tier" folks were super on point

 

[SaltyKracka]

I need to repent

All of you "Marth is a clean top tier" folks were super on point

I think it's just the fact of the Marth vs. Mario matchup. Don't get me wrong, MKLeo is super legit and probably top 5 player in the world if not higher, but every single time he counterpicked to Battlefield I just cringed. Marth's hitboxes combined with the spacing of the platforms there make that matchup look 6:4 or worse.

 

[Kung Fu Treachery]

Bowser harshly punishes mistakes and mental slips. There's a reason Nairo doesn't pull him out against ZeRo; his Diddy is too careful, too methodical.

Nairo is currently playing Bowser vs. ZeRo's Diddy. RIP Kung Fu Treachery theoryposts.

 

[|RK|]

Pfft, and as we say it. Nairo pulls out Ryu against ZeRo's DIDDY. And takes a game, even.

EDIT: RIP that dream.