@FullMoon
I still can't quite wrap my head around the fact that Greninja of all characters is considered one of if not the worst MU for Lucas lol
From the discussions held in the Lucas Discord, I think this opinion is based on multiple Lucas mains losing to Greninja players in offline tournaments. Some of us say that it's due to Lucas have trouble hitting Greninja on the ground with his idle pose (slightly lowers his hitbox) and having a hard time landing footstool to jablocks on him. Uncharged water shurikens are hard for some Lucas players to punish or get around due to the lack of hit-stun applied when we reflect it with our f-smash. The uncharged water shurikens can be shielded by Greninja (if I'm right) if he spaces them well; they also can cut off some of Lucas's aerial approaches from afar since they are fast which can frustrate Lucas players if they get hit by them.
Even if they decide to take a grounded approach they will still have to deal with the shurikens which seems to be a hassle for the Discord Lucas players right now. Furthermore, a fully charged shuriken can be shielded by Greninja unless thrown near or at point blank range.
Next there's Greninja's Hydro pump which can disrupt Lucas's PK Thunder recovery. I do not have much to say on that besides adapting, mixing up pkt angles, mixing up recovery, and getting to know PKT 1 (the orb) better so if a Lucas does get blasted away by Hydro Pump during their PKT 1 they may have a better chance at surviving and making it back to the stage.
Greninja's air to air combat is fine, his bair comes out at frame 5 which beats all of our aerials, while his up air comes out at frame 7 which is the same for Lucas's up air. Greninja's fair comes out on frame 16 and lasts until frame 17 so the whole hitbox is only 2 frames while have a lot of endlag (first active frame is 55) compared to Lucas's frame 9 fair (first active frame is 42). I think Lucas players should space their disjoints of fair while avoiding Greninja's fair air dodge read attempts.
Greninja's up-tilt is great for catching Lucas if he jumps right above Greninja or decides to land on top of Greninja with a nair. I'm not sure if Greninja's f-tilt is longer than Lucas's but I do know that ours has a disjoint so we can win a trade if they are both spaced, plus Lucas's f-tilt comes out quicker than Greninja's (frame 7 vs frame 10). The same can be said frame data wise for Jab 1 (frame 2 vs frame 3) and down tilt (frame 3 vs frame 9) plus ours has a disjoint at the very tip that is not a hurtbox.
Greninja's n-air comes out on frame 12 while also having a larger hitbox and base damage of 11 which makes for great shield stun vs Lucas's frame 7 n-air with a base damage of 2 with the final hit dealing 4 which can make for some very small shield stun.
Oh, I almost forgot greninja's footstool setups which can inflict a good amount of damage or take a stock at the right percents.
Conclusion: I think some players of Lucas Discord may get easily frustrated not having their way with Greninja, with their main concerns being gaining little to advantage in attempting to "counter" water shuriken, to greninja's size, and players going on tilt when hydro pumped offstage.
Luco
should have more or better things to say about the Greninja matchup than me since he has a Greninja player at his tournaments.
(Question to any Greninja players in the thread, can his down smash 2 frame? I think it does but I'm not for sure.I was thinking it could catch us in our tether recovery)
