Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[meticulousboy]

I'm late with this reply, but apparently Peach vs. Sheik is 45:55 respectively, as noted by the Peach Discord. I will post the MU chart again just so we don't have to find the first time I did.

There was some disagreement over this particular chart. My goal isn't to really stir that up again, but have at this. The Discord made two charts, both of which say that Little Mac is indeed her best matchup.

 

[The-Technique]

An even matchup with every relevant swordie except Cloud? That's pretty surprising, what's their reasoning behind it?

 

[meticulousboy]

Roy has a sword, yet he doesn't go even. But I do not know the reasoning behind the Discord, but my guess is this: once a turnip is in hand, it messes up the game plan of the character yielding the sword.

I guess because Cloud's Nair really hinders what Peach can do in the matchup, that may be one of the many reasons he does not go even. Turnips do gimp Cloud, though.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I am not sure what options does she have against a Fullhop Fair (rising and retreating) from Marthcina.

 

[TDK]

An even matchup with every relevant swordie except Cloud? That's pretty surprising, what's their reasoning behind it?

Is MK not relevant or not a swordie then?

To be honest I don't see Cloudeach being that bad. Though my only real evidence is Ling Ling beating ANTi's cloud so...

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Hrmm I'm sure peach's matchup with zard is a touch more even than the chart suggests. For the combos peach has flamethrower at any point causes her to lose those options and then rock smash easily knocks her silly to let zard swat her away. Though I've also noticed that if she establishes the grab at ANY time zard is pretty much toast. Most grab combos are two hit but due to zard's massive hurtbox they tend to be relevant at any percentage (especially with her floating). Simply put, if you're methodical you'll crush zard fairly easily, but one slipup or misread and peach is going to be sent flying.

 

[Routa]

There is one thing wrong about that MU spread when it comes to Miis. Brawler looses heavily against Peach. Why? Brawler is grab the character and you know who can ignore grabs? Peach. How? Float. Float alone destroys Brawler's whole gameplan. Add to that her amazing Fair and her amazing edgeguarding game which make things even worse. I even remember Dapuffster saying that Peach is Brawler's worst MU.

Gee I sure bring up the Miis all the time... Now if you excuse mii (höhöö) I shall crawl into my Frii Mii cave and play with my Miitler until Miis are mentioned again.

 

[TDK]

https://twitter.com/C9AlIy/status/809644506953957376

Does anyone have any idea how Ally managed this?

 

[Krysco]

My only guess would be that whichever one of the hits got him, sent him down and perhaps he sdi'd down and was able to tech it. Still seems less confusing than those numerous clips of people going nowhere after getting hit by Cloud's Limit Climhazzard at high percents. Course, my whole theory falls apart if he wasn't sdi'ing and plus that would require the first few hits of LCS being able to send Mario into tumble to be able to tech.

 

[ARISTOS]

I am not sure what options does she have against a Fullhop Fair (rising and retreating) from Marthcina.

Retreat and pull a turnip

 

[Luco]

https://twitter.com/Kodystri/status/809164441203965952



Kodystri's Lucas MU chart.

Having Extra and Waveguider reasonably nearby, you might imagine I disagree with a couple of the 60:40 placements, and I don't think Gren or Sonic (especially the latter) are that bad but this is totally reasonable IMO.

People will probably argue Bayo is *highly* optimistic though which is fine.

 

[Jamurai]

Can we straight-up ban matchup charts from character Discord servers, or any source bar top players (some of which are barely tolerable anyway)?

Next, we'll have people giving matchup evidence in the form of Discord crew battle results...
In which case, suddenly Ganon is high tier and beats Villager.

 

[adom4]

Can we straight-up ban matchup charts from character Discord servers, or any source bar top players (some of which are barely tolerable anyway)?

Next, we'll have people giving matchup evidence in the form of Discord crew battle results...
In which case, suddenly Ganon is high tier and beats Villager.

Ganon hard counters Cloud and Bowser confirmed

 

[Luco]

Can we straight-up ban matchup charts from character Discord servers, or any source bar top players (some of which are barely tolerable anyway)?

Next, we'll have people giving matchup evidence in the form of Discord crew battle results...
In which case, suddenly Ganon is high tier and beats Villager.

Kodystri is arguably the best US Lucas. He's also been known as Xanos if the name doesn't ring a bell.

*also Ganon also beats Cloud if we go by Discord servers, did you SEE A2 and Adom use downB and wreck every Cloud upB that didn't snap ever?*

 

[wedl!!]

I am not sure what options does she have against a Fullhop Fair (rising and retreating) from Marthcina.

Going even with chars who **** on her in neutral (frog, toonie) is also... really really questionable. What does she do against water shurikens/bomb traps?

 

[sleepy_Nex]

The clip of M2 dying dumb early to Luma has me wondering...Why is Luma so strong? Where can I get one? Will it go to work for me? And...

.

Why Luma killed Mewtwo in this clip: Luma uptilt has way too much Base knockback and this stacked with Rage and the 20%more Knockback if your opponent charges a smash attack.

A long while ago there was a clip in that luma did the same thing to Bowser.

 

[FullMoon]

I still can't quite wrap my head around the fact that Greninja of all characters is considered one of if not the worst MU for Lucas lol

 

[|RK|]

Talked about this before, but we finally have footage lol. Larry Lurr vs SmashG0D. Shame Larry always switches off after one game lmao.

The following MUs - DK vs Kirby & MK vs Kirby... Well, DK is trash, and MK isn't that bad anymore. Percent range for uair chains is really small. Also, that was last hit for both characters, though it may not have seemed that way. Also, it didn't seem like SmashG0D DI'd properly? But eh.

 

[Fenny]

https://twitter.com/Kodystri/status/809164441203965952



Kodystri's Lucas MU chart.

People will probably argue Bayo is *highly* optimistic though which is fine.

Not really highly optimistic - I think the worst it could be is even. I don't think Bayo beats Lucas at all - he has very solid tools against her in general.

 

[meticulousboy]

https://twitter.com/Kodystri/status/809164441203965952

How is Samus not even with Lucas, but Mewtwo and Lucario are? I'm pretty the Lucas player can make the same excellent read off of Charge Shot and do PSI Magnet, let alone reflect by Fsmash, just like he would if s/he were to read an incoming Shadow Ball or Aura Sphere.

 

[Rizen]

How is Samus not even with Lucas, but Mewtwo and Lucario are? I'm pretty the Lucas player can make the same excellent read off of Charge Shot and do PSI Magnet, let alone reflect by Fsmash, just like he would if s/he were to read an incoming Shadow Ball or Aura Sphere.

Magnet's good but reflecting shadow ball only leads to confusion and pain.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Ganon hard counters Cloud and Bowser confirmed

Oh my, I just looked this up, you guys went and beat up all the Clouds, nice!

 

[Jamurai]

Kodystri is arguably the best US Lucas. He's also been known as Xanos if the name doesn't ring a bell.

*also Ganon also beats Cloud if we go by Discord servers, did you SEE A2 and Adom use downB and wreck every Cloud upB that didn't snap ever?*

Oh I know he is, I was referring to the Peach Discord one. Not clear enough, my b.

 

[meticulousboy]

So Discord matchup charts are mostly inaccurate? Care to explain?

I will admit, that there was one MU chart I disagreed with simply because it said Peach goes even with Yoshi.

 

[ARISTOS]

So Discord matchup charts are mostly inaccurate? Care to explain?

I will admit, that there was one MU chart I disagreed with simply because it said Peach goes even with Yoshi.

1. Mostly low-mid level players giving their inputs
2. Most give a significant swing to their character

 

[Key313]

Going even with chars who **** on her in neutral (frog, toonie) is also... really really questionable. What does she do against water shurikens/bomb traps?

I had the luck of playing against Venia recently and there were a ton of Water Shuriken. Bob and weave pretty much. He was falling with shots at different heights to prevent floating or holding it for the ground approach. I would float at different heights or stay grounded since it can't cover all levels at once. Short hop air dodge can get you through but should not be abused of course. Made use of crouching as well. A nair or turnip can cancel out those that are not fully charged as well. Nair is much better considering it's easy to get hit by the shuriken when pulling one. Went back and forth with most of my losing games being from a rage up throw, meaning a close game.

For what it's worth both Mr E and Samsora had the Marth Peach matchup as even with Samsora talking about his games with Mr E in the Discord. I don't feel it's uphill myself. Outside of MK and Cloud of course I much rather fight Marth or Lucina over Corrin which I would move down to losing.

 

[meticulousboy]

Well, Peach can edgeguard Corrin with Toad. That much could be why Corrin is even? Not too sure.

Also, I am starting to think that Peach bodies Ryu to the point where she has a minuscule advantage. I may be wrong, so feel free to counteract that argument.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Bodies =/= minuscule advantage

make up your mind

As a side note I am happy that more and more people feel comfortable saying their char beats Ryu. Heaven forbid this community actually gets over it's obsession with being able to kill (which Ryu is good at and why people suck his ****) and finally accept what competitive smash has been about since 64. Abusive neutral and low commitment.

 

[meticulousboy]

I actually had no idea that that was a trend nowadays for people to find some comfort fighting Ryu with their character.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Not comfort, so much as people aren't overestimating Ryu in MU discussion anymore just because he can off your stock when you screw up.

If you screw up you will probably die or take huge damage from any good character.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So Discord matchup charts are mostly inaccurate?

All matchup charts are mostly inaccurate.

 

[meticulousboy]

If there is some consistency across a plenty of charts, then there has to be some accuracy, right? I believe that is how the tier list we have here came to be: consistency across other lists. Let's say about five constitutes the term plenty.

 

[Trunks159]

Well baseless opinions can hardly be accurate.

 

[Emblem Lord]

All matchup charts are mostly inaccurate.

I take offense to this.

My Ryu MU chart is accurate as ****. Maybe not specific ratios, but who he loses too, beats and is roughly even with is pretty hard to argue.

 

[soniczx123]

I take offense to this.

My Ryu MU chart is accurate as ****. Maybe not specific ratios, but who he loses too, beats and is roughly even with is pretty hard to argue.

Show it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I did. This was months ago. Not looking for it again. I will give the short version.

Disadvantage to



Roughly even with



Advantage against



Roughly even could swing either way since no match is truly even, but the advantage/disadvantage is so small its not worth getting into. Also I think runaway Wario probably wins. Throwing that out there. Dedede is weird to me as he does kinda win on the ground, but gets comboed super hard when he gets hit. And of course Ryu doesn't care about his weight. Fox only loses because when he wants the kill he is forced to deal with Ryu's superior hitboxes. But besides that he is definitely a superior character.

If you want me to defend something or debate take your shot. I'm all ears.

 

[Das Koopa]

ZeRo Runback (ZeRo fighting everybody who beat him, sans M2K) starting now:

https://www.twitch.tv/2ggaming

-Kameme
-Mr. R
-Mr. E
-Nairo
-Dabuz
-Salem
-ANTi
-Larry Lurr
-Vinnie
-Prince Ramen
-Seagull Joe
-Day

He more or less deleted M2K with that JV3 anyway

 

[TDK]

It still amazes me that we have an event where someone plays everyone they've lost to and it's considered a big deal that they've lost to this many people.

ZeRo is the god.

 

[Das Koopa]

Actually nix ConCon (couldn't make it) and Ally (apparently not attending the entire event due to flight problems)

 

[TDK]

ZeRo 3-1 Vinnie

https://clips.twitch.tv/2ggaming/VictoriousHawkSMSkull