Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[The-Technique]

At this point I'm still surprised people think Bowser is bad. Yeah he's easy to combo but all it takes is 3-4 grabs and your stock is gone, plus Bowser benefits from rage like no other (besides Lucario)

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Mr. R got ZSSed by Locus' Ryu.

3-2

Don't be sleeping on the world warrior.
(I don't think Mr. R was sleeping on him but Locus has been taking names today)

 

[TDK]

Locus's ability to not die despite how badly bodied he was getting trying to reset neutral was godly.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't know if some of you guys still remember but way back in the day before Smash 4 even had its official release in the US there was a group of people around Zero that called Bowser top tier. Obviously this isn't something that's particularly relevant now because those were pretty much just first-week impressions but it's still intereting because there may have been more to it than we used to think up until Bowser started to make some big moves recently.

Is Bowser a good character? If we ignore Snake, who was pretty much one big design error, then Smash 4 Bowser has to be the first superheavy character in smash history with a functional disadvantaged state. Unlike DK or DDD, Bowser is not combo-food and not actually easy to juggle. Thanks to a good jab, a good OoS option in upB and damage output via Koo-pa he also has a neutral game that an be called at least 'respectable'. And then there's his advantaged state which, while not as blatantly stupid as Fox or ZSS, is still quite potent - his massive hitboxes provide some meaty coverage, whether you're coming back to the stage or just landing. So while he may not be able to wreck your ****, getting back to a neutral position against Bowser is actually quite the challenge.

At this point I think it's fair to say that Bowser is fundamentally different from all the other superheavy characters simply on ground of actually being a solid charater through and through. His matchup arithmetics are just entirely different from DK's and DDD's. He does go even with Fox for instance, something that a DDD main could only dream of.

 

[verbatim]

I think it's pretty early to call him "good". If he keeps consistently doing well AS people start learning the matchup and trying things specifically designed to beat him then we can think about it.


Characters like Lucario/Yoshi/Falcon/modern Luigi have had random upsets/performances, but I would argue that the general consensus on them isn't "good", or at least not high tier.

 

[TDK]

I think it's pretty early to call him "good". If he keeps consistently doing well AS people start learning the matchup and trying things specifically designed to beat him then we can think about it.


Characters like Lucario/Yoshi/Falcon/modern Luigi have had random upsets/performances, but I would argue that the general consensus on them isn't "good", or at least not high tier.

Actually a lot of people consider those four "good", or at least Lucario/Falcon/New Luigi.

 

[soniczx123]

He does go even with Fox for instance,

eh, what?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Characters like Lucario/Yoshi/Falcon/modern Luigi have had random upsets/performances, but I would argue that the general consensus on them isn't "good", or at least not high tier.

What gives you the idea that these upsets are "random"?

eh, what?

"He" refers to the character Bowser.
"Goes even with" means that in a direct confrontation between these two neither character has the advantage.
"Fox" refers to Fox, a smash 4 character.

 

[|RK|]

I think it's pretty early to call him "good". If he keeps consistently doing well AS people start learning the matchup and trying things specifically designed to beat him then we can think about it.


Characters like Lucario/Yoshi/Falcon/modern Luigi have had random upsets/performances, but I would argue that the general consensus on them isn't "good", or at least not high tier.

Lucario is generally considered high tier (though a few top players say he's top tier), Falcon hasn't dropped out of high tier yet, and Yoshi/Luigi are more or less unknown.

If there's anything I've learned from the incessant "top 10/20" debates, it's that characters (and players) are consistently moved up - but few are moved down. I think we have a sizable top/high tier - likely more than just 20 characters.

 

[Yonder]

In a game where we consider every single character bar Jigglypuff at least "not god awful Melee Kirby tier trash", how can we not consider Bowser good at this point, especially with Nairo's success (he has been 9-0 with him so far at Zero saga). He also has Lord Mix who has defeated some notable players, both in singles and doubles. Dash speed increase from previous games already brought him to above low tier to start, even without up throw changes. Then you have rage which was an indirect buff. Those three things alone plus a bit of a player base is what makes him in the top areas of mid tier. Or even bottom high. I wouldn't doubt it. Didn't even mention his pivot grab which makes DDD and Melee Marth grab range look small. Which leads to tons of reward via damage racking and kills. Then there's his great OOS options...

What holds him back? His disadvantage is garbage. No high or top tier has one that bad and it really hurts. His jump squat is the worst in the game too.

 

[soniczx123]

What gives you the idea that these upsets are "random"?



"He" refers to the character Bowser.
"Goes even with" means that in a direct confrontation between these two neither character has the advantage.
"Fox" refers to Fox, a smash 4 character.

"eh, what" refers to lack of explanation of that statement.
Therefore, elaborate.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

~ Gheb ~ A lot of what you said about Bowser also applies to Charizard, I'd actually argue his neutral and disadvantage are better than Bowser's. Is he fundamentally different and stronger than other superheavies too? Or is DK still better just because he has a grab confirm?

 

[David Viran]

In a game where we consider every single character bar Jigglypuff at least "not god awful Melee Kirby tier trash", how can we not consider Bowser good at this point, especially with Nairo's success (he has been 9-0 with him so far at Zero saga). He also has Lord Mix who has defeated some notable players, both in singles and doubles. Dash speed increase from previous games already brought him to above low tier to start, even without up throw changes. Then you have rage which was an indirect buff. Those three things alone plus a bit of a player base is what makes him in the top areas of mid tier. Or even bottom high. I wouldn't doubt it. Didn't even mention his pivot grab which makes DDD and Melee Marth grab range look small. Which leads to tons of reward via damage racking and kills. Then there's his great OOS options...

What holds him back? His disadvantage is garbage. No high or top tier has one that bad and it really hurts. His jump squat is the worst in the game too.

When he said nairo was 9-0, he was talking abbout zero saga and UGC. He's used bowser for 3 sets so far altogether. I don't think he went bowser in pools or at least not in the winner finals of his pool.

 

[TDK]

How come every time we talk about a heavy someone goes "Oh Zard can do this to is he better than (Insert other heavy here but usually DK/Bowser)"?

It actually gets on my nerves.

Zard my have a decent-by-heavy-standards Neutral and Disadvantage but they're both worse than Bowser. And his advantage is miles worse than DK or Bowser.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

How come every time we talk about a heavy someone goes "Oh Zard can do this to is he better than (Insert other heavy here but usually DK/Bowser)"?

It actually gets on my nerves.

I just brought it up because I noticed that most of what Gheb said about Bowser applies to Charizard and I'd like to hear what he thinks of the character.

I also think DK is one of the most overrated characters at the moment and should probably be in low tier.

 

[TDK]

I just brought it up because I noticed that most of what Gheb said about Bowser applies to Charizard and I'd like to hear what he thinks of the character.

I also think DK is one of the most overrated characters at the moment and should probably be in low tier.

How does it apply to Zard?

Also I use Zard somewhat myself and think that anyone who thinks he has secret potential is out of their minds.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I think it's pretty early to call him "good". If he keeps consistently doing well AS people start learning the matchup and trying things specifically designed to beat him then we can think about it.


Characters like Lucario/Yoshi/Falcon/modern Luigi have had random upsets/performances, but I would argue that the general consensus on them isn't "good", or at least not high tier.

Pretty sure all the characters listed are good. Are mid-upper mid tiers suddenly not good characters?

And how many times are we going to have to bring up Falcon's consistent results (wouldn't you know it, we have a Falcon in top 16 at a super stacked major again) before people finally just admit that he's high tier.

On to Bowser though, I've always thought for a while that he's the best super heavydksucksbut I do not think he's anything more than Mid tier. Who can you really say he's better than? Or anywhere near as consistent as? I think Robin has a much better chance at high tier than Bowser, and I don't think Robin's high tier either. And in every set I've seen with Nairo's Bowser he's been reading the hell out of his opponent. Vs. Tweek, Tweek wouldn't constantly try and land with dair, and before dair would even come out Nairo would be behind him ready to throw out a back air. He's just been able to read his opponent very well, enough to keep up with them in terms of damage, and then land a grab and end them.

I wanna see more Bowsers do well like this, or at the very least more than just 3 sets from Nairo before we consider Bowser high tier.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Is there just like... a hidden cove of powerful Ryu mains? Locus has beaten both 9B and Saj this tourney... and I've never heard of him before today lol.

There are several Ryus that hang out in the Discord that are knowledgeable and skilled but don't travel as much as Darkshad. Locus is one of them.

 

[Deleted member]

I just brought it up because I noticed that most of what Gheb said about Bowser applies to Charizard and I'd like to hear what he thinks of the character.

I also think DK is one of the most overrated characters at the moment and should probably be in low tier.

The fact people are saying DK will fall to low tier while Bowser has a chance at upper-mid/high says volumes about how silly this thread can be.

Everyone will probably be all over DK again once HIKARU places well at another major.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Also Ryu still isn't top tier guys.

Chill.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

~ Gheb ~ A lot of what you said about Bowser also applies to Charizard, I'd actually argue his neutral and disadvantage are better than Bowser's. Is he fundamentally different and stronger than other superheavies too?

I don't know Charizard well enough to make a qualified statement to be honest. But if you took the logic I used for Bowser and extended it to Charizard as you did, I wouldn't be surprised if the results were legit. Incidentally, Charizard is also a character that can give Fox an immensely hard time which probably isn't a mere coincidence.

I also think DK is one of the most overrated characters at the moment and should probably be in low tier.

Smash 4 DK is an abomination. Awful character with tons of crippling weaknesses.

But then there's ding dong and all of a sudden character design doesn't mean diddly-squat anymore and DK wins stuff that you'd think could never work. Disgusting.

 

[|RK|]

There are several Ryus that hang out in the Discord that are knowledgeable and skilled but don't travel as much as Darkshad. Locus is one of them.

I see...

Well, the Ryu Discord seems to be very powerful then haha. Locus is damn good.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

To me it seems like all it takes for players to see a "low tier" rise, or be "high tier" is hype, popular players, taking out popular players, and winning or placing high in tournies and suddenly people pull a 180 and recant all the negatives they said before.

EDIT: I don't like tier lists

 

[Nidtendofreak]

To me it seems like all it takes for players to see a "low tier" rise, or be "high tier" is hype, popular players, taking out popular players, and winning or placing high in tournies and suddenly people pull a 180 and recant all the negatives they said before.

Pretty much. People don't like waiting for long term data, they want to jump on the hype train now.

Here's a spoiler alert for this whole thread: Bowser is not High Tier. Ryu is not Top Tier. Bowser Jr. is still low tier. Bayonetta is still insane and top 3 character in the game. DK is still Mid Tier.

Any other wild conclusions that need to be knocked down?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

How does it apply to Zard?

Also I use Zard somewhat myself and think that anyone who thinks he has secret potential is out of their minds.

as I said before, he has a functional disadvantage, a good neutral, and a decent advantage state.

his disadvantage is probably the best of the superheavies. Burst mobility, super armor landing options, decent recovery with good mixups, and a lingering hitbox on dair are things that other superheavies can only dream of
He's fast with good spacing tools, good oos in up b and up smash, and good cqc in neutral. Thats actually fairly good character design.
the only thing that doesn't apply to him well was the advantage part. His advantage state is less reward focused and more ledge focused

I'd like to know why you think he has no potential

The fact people are saying DK will fall to low tier while Bowser has a chance at upper-mid/high says volumes about how silly this thread can be.

Everyone will probably be all over DK again once HIKARU places well at another major.

DK's only saving grace is his kill confirm. If he gets touched in neutral hes stuck in disadvantage until 150 where he either gets straight up killed or he gets edgeguarded.
I can't trust Japanese tournaments anymore, the only thing consistent about them are upsets happening every single damn time

 

[|RK|]

To me it seems like all it takes for players to see a "low tier" rise, or be "high tier" is hype, popular players, taking out popular players, and winning or placing high in tournies and suddenly people pull a 180 and recant all the negatives they said before.

EDIT: I don't like tier lists

If hype = good matches that show the potential of a character and popular players = some of the best players in the world, then yes. That and consistency.

That's how Mewtwo rose post-buffs. We're waiting on the last part - consistency - for sure. But Ryu never really fell out of high tier, and Bowser has been moving up in peoples' opinions since LordMix vs Ally.

 

[L9999]

Pretty much. People don't like waiting for long term data, they want to jump on the hype train now.

Here's a spoiler alert for this whole thread: Bowser is not High Tier. Ryu is not Top Tier. Bowser Jr. is still low tier. Bayonetta is still insane and top 3 character in the game. DK is still Mid Tier.

Any other wild conclusions that need to be knocked down?

Who the devil is saying Bowser Jr is not low tier? He will never leave that place if he stays the way he is now.

 

[Goombo]

And how many times are we going to have to bring up Falcon's consistent results (wouldn't you know it, we have a Falcon in top 16 at a super stacked major again) before people finally just admit that he's high tier.

How? This guy literally has three different hardcounters, a matchup against Cloud of all characters that is looking nearly as bad and further problematic matchups down the whole tierlist from Ryu down to Kirby.

Captain Falcon ist not a high tier character. At least he is not top 20.

 

[Virum]

as I said before, he has a functional disadvantage, a good neutral, and a decent advantage state.

his disadvantage is probably the best of the superheavies. Burst mobility, super armor landing options, decent recovery with good mixups, and a lingering hitbox on dair are things that other superheavies can only dream of
He's fast with good spacing tools, good oos in up b and up smash, and good cqc in neutral. Thats actually fairly good character design.
the only thing that doesn't apply to him well was the advantage part. His advantage state is less reward focused and more ledge focused

I'd like to know why you think he has no potential

Flare Blitz is not relevant burst mobility to escape disadvantage because it takes him too far and it's far too easy to react to and chase unless the character is very slow.

His armoured options are all very heavy commitments that all lose to shield and can often be spaced around.

Lingering hitbox on DAir still doesn't last that long, there's still 15 frames before Zard is able to autocancel the move after the hitbox ends and it has a ton of landing lag with no landing hitbox so it has to be used high and early.

Slow, high commitment aerials and poor aerial physics alongside lacking a solid answer to cross-ups means that he still struggles quite a bit in disadvantage. However the crux is that he's very durable and can take more hits than most of the cast in a good number of match-ups. He can afford to take the hits, but he's pretty bad not getting around getting hit.

However, I concur with what you said about his neutral. Zard's neutral is comfortably better than Bowser and DK's. Jab, Flamethrower, USmash and FAir alongside his ground mobility supplement this.

 

[Nu~]

Pretty much. People don't like waiting for long term data, they want to jump on the hype train now.

Here's a spoiler alert for this whole thread: Bowser is not High Tier. Ryu is not Top Tier. Bowser Jr. is still low tier. Bayonetta is still insane and top 3 character in the game. DK is still Mid Tier.

Any other wild conclusions that need to be knocked down?

I did say "humor" after all.

I'd rather be open to the possibility of bowser being better than he is currently perceived than putting my head in the sand and ignoring the idea.

 

[Das Koopa]

ESAM goes 0-2 to Snickledorf and just lost 0-3 to Captain L, getting 9th at DPotG.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Who the devil is saying Bowser Jr is not low tier? He will never leave that place if he stays the way he is now.

Somebody in the thread for the tournament specifically, after Tweek pulled him out again.

Also, Falcon is in fact High Tier, just not a very good High Tier.

Nu~ The possibility will exist when its more than Lord Mix's occasional (admittedly good) tournament results and Nairo pulling him out on a whim as a secondary. Until then its a bunch of outlier results against people who haven't faced a good Bowser before. No counterplay accounted for yet.

 

[jespoke]

***** the Wii U browser for eating my rant on Charizard. Condensed version by phone it is i guess.

Charizard may hit hard, but he doesnt hit Bowser level hard. He also doesnt confirm into finishers, his super armor is a way bigger commitment, he doesnt break or threaten shield well, and he cant fall fast.

Zard does more in neutral, punishes some rolls, and gimps some people with flamethrower, but he nowhere near as scary as Bowser and DK

 

[Emblem Lord]

How? This guy literally has three different hardcounters, a matchup against Cloud of all characters that is looking nearly as bad and further problematic matchups down the whole tierlist from Ryu down to Kirby.

Captain Falcon ist not a high tier character. At least he is not top 20.

Damn son.

You too real for this board.

Well done.

CF is overrated trash.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

***** the Wii U browser for eating my rant on Charizard. Condensed version by phone it is i guess.

Charizard may hit hard, but he doesnt hit Bowser level hard. He also doesnt confirm into finishers, his super armor is a way bigger commitment, he doesnt break or threaten shield well, and he cant fall fast.

Zard does more in neutral, punishes some rolls, and gimps some people with flamethrower, but he nowhere near as scary as Bowser and DK

Thing is, as has been stated multiple times on this board, having a better neutral than another character makes the better neutral character superior as a result due to the fact that the game focuses on neutral and that controlling neutral is crucial to winning, zard can also get kills off his jab combo as well.

 

[Kung Fu Treachery]

Beating Bowser requires you to be very careful, safe, and, at times, lame. Imagine if that thing people say about Ganon ("He only needs to get a few hits in.") were actually true.* That's Bowser. If, hypothetically, you haven't fought a good Bowser, and you're tilted from Nairo grabbing you at 50% and killing you, things might go south quickly. Bowser harshly punishes mistakes and mental slips. There's a reason Nairo doesn't pull him out against ZeRo; his Diddy is too careful, too methodical. Bowser still can't land very effectively, and he's slow.

Basically, a kill confirm is always a huge deal. Boswer has a great pivot grab, so his confirm goes through shield and kills very early. If you don't lab the matchup, you might be dead before you get the chance to figure it out. It doesn't hurt that Nairo is a master of getting grabs.

*Ganon needs way more than a few hits. If he actually could win neutral three times and get a stock, he might actually be good.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Beating Bowser requires you to be very careful, safe, and, at times, lame. Imagine if that thing people say about Ganon ("He only needs to get a few hits in.") were actually true.* That's Bowser. If, hypothetically, you haven't fought a good Bowser, and you're tilted from Nairo grabbing you at 50% and killing you, things might go south quickly. Bowser harshly punishes mistakes and mental slips. There's a reason Nairo doesn't pull him out against ZeRo; his Diddy is too careful, too methodical. Bowser still can't land very effectively, and he's slow.

Basically, a kill confirm is always a huge deal. Boswer has a great pivot grab, so his confirm goes through shield and kills very early. If you don't lab the matchup, you might be dead before you get the chance to figure it out. It doesn't hurt that Nairo is a master of getting grabs.

*Ganon needs way more than a few hits. If he actually could win neutral three times and get a stock, he might actually be good.

So essentially what you're saying is Bowser is more of a punish character than a straight up aggressive character?

 

[arbustopachon]

Zard's jab 3 does kills early for a jab, but it kills like 60% later than Bowsers u-throw kill confirm. Unless you are talking about Jab2 U-smash/Fly which is escapeable (and in the case of fly super risky) and even then those two kill like 20% later.

 

[SaltyKracka]

So essentially what you're saying is Bowser is more of a punish character than a straight up aggressive character?

He's saying that easy throw combos and kill confirms are incredibly goddamn powerful.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Beating Bowser requires you to be very careful, safe, and, at times, lame. Imagine if that thing people say about Ganon ("He only needs to get a few hits in.") were actually true.* That's Bowser. If, hypothetically, you haven't fought a good Bowser, and you're tilted from Nairo grabbing you at 50% and killing you, things might go south quickly. Bowser harshly punishes mistakes and mental slips. There's a reason Nairo doesn't pull him out against ZeRo; his Diddy is too careful, too methodical. Bowser still can't land very effectively, and he's slow.

Basically, a kill confirm is always a huge deal. Boswer has a great pivot grab, so his confirm goes through shield and kills very early. If you don't lab the matchup, you might be dead before you get the chance to figure it out. It doesn't hurt that Nairo is a master of getting grabs.

*Ganon needs way more than a few hits. If he actually could win neutral three times and get a stock, he might actually be good.

A think a better thing to say is that Ganon has the POTENTIAL (it's very hard and requires perfect positioning and edgeguarding, likely) to do this, Bowser has the logistical way of winning neutral a couple of times and spanking you. It's the most clear cut difference between the two, the very emboldened difference of having a kill confirm vs. not having one.