Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Nu~]

And now we see why the matchup is awful.

Diddy's obscene hitboxes ignore ryu's footsies

 

[The-Technique]

Diddy's hitboxes were only part of it. ZeRo's item play with banana combined with his command grab mixups pretty much bounced Nairo around relentlessly.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Ryu has the same problem Samus has with using his projectile. It's @#$ 58 frames cooldown. This is stupid. Like really stupid.
Are you listening Nintendo? Ryu is supposed to use Fireballs to make people JUMP then you Dragon Punch them. That's the CORE of street fighter.
Can't do that in smash 4. 60 frames. Make it @#$% 45 ok? Nintendo? Capish? This isn't rocket science.
Samus is supposed to use her goddamn missiles. Same problem. 60 frame cooldown = cannot use goddamn missiles. These are worthless moves right now except against the weakest of players. It's such bad design. Drives me nuts.

 

[TDK]

And Larry pulls out DK and shows just how much worse in neutral and disadvantage he really is.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Ryu has the same problem Samus has with using his projectile. It's @#$ 58 frames cooldown. This is stupid. Like really stupid.
Are you listening Nintendo? Ryu is supposed to use Fireballs to make people JUMP then you Dragon Punch them. That's the CORE of street fighter.
Can't do that in smash 4. 60 frames. Make it @#$% 45 ok? Nintendo? Capish? This isn't rocket science.
Samus is supposed to use her goddamn missiles. Same problem. 60 frame cooldown = cannot use goddamn missiles. These are worthless moves right now except against the weakest of players. It's such bad design. Drives me nuts.

That's roughly the same recovery they had in SF2. At worst it's like 6 or 7 frames more, but what can you do? It's similar fireball data to official SF games, the problem is that mobility in Smash is ****ed.

The only way fireballs make people jump and/or approach in Smash is if they're broken because you can otherwise run forward and block in Smash just fine, and then continue to run forward and/or double jump.

It's the same reason Ryu's fireballs are usually bad in Marvel too.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I'd argue that the average smash player reaction time is probably just a little faster, let's say around 10 frames. That makes the window a little more manageable. However, if you're playing this game a lot at a high level, you're going to be used to certain scenarios and more likely to suspect them, making it easier to react to because you've been in the situation before. So even if a person fighting Zard had an average reaction time of 12 frames, they'd likely still be able to react to it if they're at least somewhat familiar with the basics of Zard's neutral.

This isn't about Zard, but something that's interesting is just how much Nairo is switching off of ZSS. He lost game 1 vs VoiD, switched to Lucina, now he's on Bowser and he's getting bodi- scratch that, he got bodied, he's lost.
It seems like Nairo just doesn't think his ZSS (or potentially ZSS in general? Food for thought.) has what it takes anymore.

Thats the thing though, most Smash players aren't actually familiar with Zards neutral

 

[TDK]

Thats the thing though, most Smash players aren't actually familiar with Zards neutral

That isn't zard being good, that's people not knowing a matchup.

 

[DungeonMaster]

That's roughly the same recovery they had in SF2. At worst it's like 6 or 7 frames more, but what can you do? It's similar fireball data to official SF games, the problem is that mobility in Smash is ****ed.
The only way fireballs make people jump and/or approach in Smash is if they're broken because you can otherwise run forward and block in Smash just fine, and then continue to run forward and/or double jump.

Point taken but, no, they have indeed adjusted the endlag of projectiles to make them much better in neutral - greeninja's went from 60 to 45. The fact that you NEVER see basic fireball patterns is not just the strength of power shield but primarily the extreme risk of throwing out a projectile.
This is very very simple to fix and the balance is NOT thrown out of the window. It's flat out dumb.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Point taken but, no, they have indeed adjusted the endlag of projectiles to make them much better in neutral - greeninja's went from 60 to 45. The fact that you NEVER see basic fireball patterns is not just the strength of power shield but primarily the extreme risk of throwing out a projectile.

Like, I get what you mean...but Smash as a series has not exactly benefited from projectiles being all-powerful when they were. And I would seriously think long and hard about giving a character who is already as good as Ryu is a very good way to force opponents to approach him.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

THE CURSE IS REAL

Leo knocks ZeRo out of his own saga with Marth 3-0!

 

[TheGoodGuava]

That isn't zard being good, that's people not knowing a matchup.

this had nothing to do with Zard being good, it was about being able to react to Zard's sh fair


Remember when Leo said he would 2stock ZeRo?
He did it

Maybe Marth beats Diddy?

 

[Asdioh]

Who knocked ZeRo out of winner's? Didn't he just beat EVERYBODY solidly a day or two ago? That was nuts.

 

[The-Technique]

MARTH IS TOP 10

It's official. 3-0 against ZeRo's Diddy.

Who knocked ZeRo out of winner's? Didn't he just beat EVERYBODY solidly a day or two ago? That was nuts.

Ally beat ZeRo 3-2.

 

[TDK]

this had nothing to do with Zard being good, it was about being able to react to Zard's sh fair

Yeah but if your reasoning is that people don't know how to punish sh fair that's not zard it's people not knowing a matchup.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Yeah but if your reasoning is that people don't know how to punish sh fair that's not zard it's people not knowing a matchup.

This has nothing to do with punishing Zard's fair, this is whether or not a player can shield Zards sh fair on reaction.

 

[TDK]

This has nothing to do with punishing Zard's fair, this is whether or not a player can shield Zards sh fair on reaction.

Reminder that shield is frame 1, so if you see Zard jump hit shield and it should come out in time.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Reminder that shield is frame 1, so if you see Zard jump hit shield and it should come out in time.

So you're going to react to something that comes out in 7 frames? That would be world record time

Now lets get back to something more relevant. Leo is up 3 - 0 against ZeRo AND VoiD.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Leo 3-0s VoiD now

Fox vs Marth Gand Finals

Is this Sm4sh or is this Melee?

 

[Deleted member]

3-0ing ZeRo and VoiD at the same tournament.

MKLeo is an actual god. If he didn't have a solid case for top 5 in the world before, he definitely does now.

 

[TDK]

ZeRo > Ally > Leo > Everyone Else

 

[SaltyKracka]

Well, there goes Leo's chances for another 3-0.

 

[The-Technique]

ZeRo > Ally > Leo > Everyone Else

Nairo being slept on again? He placed the same as Ally did in this tournament, and he has a lifetime winning record on nearly every top player, including Ally, except ZeRo and MK Leo.

 

[TDK]

Nairo being slept on again? He placed the same as Ally did in this tournament, and he has a lifetime winning record on nearly every top player, including Ally, except ZeRo and MK Leo.

Ally won more majors this year, including EVO, the biggest tournament of the year, and has a winning record this year vs ZeRo and Leo (I think, someone correct me if I'm wrong).

 

[|RK|]

ZeRo > Ally > Leo > Everyone Else

With all credit given to Ally, I don't think he's far above everyone else. I think this has the potential to come out as ZeRo > Leo > everyone else. But as Ally himself said, it's really just ZeRo > everyone else. Ally doesn't have the results against non-ZeRo players to put him as a solid second.

 

[The-Technique]

Ally won more majors this year, including EVO, the biggest tournament of the year, and has a winning record this year vs ZeRo and Leo (I think, someone correct me if I'm wrong).

Ally has a (now) losing record against Leo. Still need to check on tournament placements for this year.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Marth won a major

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

LEO WINS!

Marth has won a major!

 

[TDK]

2GGT: ZeRo Saga (361 Entrants)

1st: SF HDG l MKLeo
2nd: Elv l Larry Lurr
3rd: CLG l VoiD
4th: TSM l ZeRo
5th: NRG l Nairo
5th: C9 l Ally
7th: IMT l ANTi
7th: 2GG l Komorikiri
9th: RNG l Dabuz
9th: DNG l Kameme
9th: LG l Abadango
9th: UBCEA l Locus
13th: DMG l Tweek
13th: LooK l Falln
13th: NME l Tyrant
13th: FS l Fatality

Only counted characters that won games. At the tournament where everyone has pockets ANTi didn't switch chars even once.

Nairo's secondaries geez

Das Koopa

 

[Goombo]

MARTH FOR TOP 10!!!

who is this rosalina again?

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Did MKLeo only use Cloud versus Dabuz? Did he go Marth for everyone else? If so, I guess we can say Marth just won a major.

2GGT: ZeRo Saga (361 Entrants)

1st: SF HDG l MKLeo
2nd: Elv l Larry Lurr
3rd: CLG l VoiD
4th: TSM l ZeRo
5th: NRG l Nairo
5th: C9 l Ally
7th: IMT l ANTi
7th: 2GG l Komorikiri
9th: RNG l Dabuz
9th: DNG l Kameme
9th: LG l Abadango
9th: UBCEA l Locus
13th: DMG l Tweek
13th: LooK l Falln
13th: NME l Tyrant
13th: FS l Fatality

Only counted characters that won games. At the tournament where everyone has pockets ANTi didn't switch chars even once.

Nairo's secondaries geez

Das Koopa

I don't think characters that win games should be listed if they don't end up winning the set. It's very misleading. For instance, if I make top 8 with a top tier and am getting destroyed by my main, get one gimmicky game with a low tier here then end up getting destroyed, should that really count?

 

[Illusion.]

who is this rosalina again?

You mean the character that has two representatives in the top 16 for this tournament?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Notable winners of Zero Saga

obviously.
2 solos made top 8 . Ally did send ZeRo to losers
srsly who is that Locus guy and where did he come from. That was some of the best Ryu play I have seen! Took down Tweek, Mr.R and two top Bayos
..speaking of which.


The notable loser
All those Pro Bayo's and not one even made it to top 16? Man what the heck happened there?

 

[TDK]

Rosa also had more reps made it into top 32 than Marth. Three to two.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Did MKLeo only use Cloud versus Dabuz? Did he go Marth for everyone else? If so, I guess we can say Marth just won a major.

I don't think characters that win games should be listed if they don't end up winning the set. It's very misleading. For instance, if I make top 8 with a top tier and am getting destroyed by my main, get one gimmicky game with a low tier here then end up getting destroyed, should that really count?

Only used Cloud vs Dabuz and in the ditto vs Komorikiri I believe. Marth for everything else.

Also, a win is a win, doesn't really matter how it's won. Gimmicks are part of the game, that's not a bad thing, and they're not exclusive to low tiers. A win with a low tier shouldn't automatically be written off as only due to gimmicks either.

 

[TDK]

2GGT: Civil War confirmed March 24th-26th.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Only used Cloud vs Dabuz and in the ditto vs Komorikiri I believe. Marth for everything else.

Also, a win is a win, doesn't really matter how it's won. Gimmicks are part of the game, that's not a bad thing, and they're not exclusive to low tiers. A win with a low tier shouldn't automatically be written off as only due to gimmicks either.

You didn't understand what I said.

Let's say I make top 8 going only Diddy.

Then in top 8 I play Ganon only. I lose every single game winners and losers except 1.

So I get 3-0ed in winners as Ganon and then 3-1ed in losers as Ganon.

In other words my only set wins were with Diddy. So why on earth should Ganon be beside my name in the results? It'd be highly misleading. Because people would look back at that result and say Ganon made top 8 at a major when that was far from the case.

That's why it doesn't make any sense to put any characters used besides a persons name. Only characters that helped them win the entire set (key word) should be mentioned.

 

[The-Technique]

OK I compiled them. All nationals in 2016 with either Ally or Nairo (or both) in attendance.

Spoiler: Nairo's results compared to Ally's

Dismantle 2:
Nairo 1st
Ally 3rd

Genesis 3:
Nairo 5th
Ally 9th

Shots Fired 2:
Nairo 1st
Ally 9th

FOW Saga:
Nairo 1st

Pound 2016:
Nairo 49th
Ally 2nd

Enthusiast Gaming Live Expo:
Nairo 1st
Ally 2nd

LVL Up EXPO:
Nairo 1st

GOML:
Nairo 4th
Ally 1st

MomoCon:
Nairo 1st
Ally 2nd

KTAR XVIII:
Nairo 1st

Smash N Splash 2:
Ally 1st

Low Tier City 2:
Nairo 2nd

CEO 2016:
Nairo 17th
Ally 49th

EVO 2016:
Nairo 13th
Ally 1st

Clutch City Clash:
Ally 3rd

Super Smash Con:
Nairo 1st
Ally 5th

Umebura S.A.T
Nairo 3rd

Abadango Saga:
Nairo 3rd
Ally 4th

TBH6:
Nairo 7th
Ally 25th

KTAR XIX:
Nairo 4th

UGC:
Nairo 4th
Ally 9th

Total 1st place finishes:
Nairo: 7
Ally: 3

 

[FamilyTeam]

So, who are the characters that won all of the majors this year?

 

[ARGHETH]

So, who are the characters that won all of the majors this year?

Supermajors:
Majors:

Going by Das Koopa's list

 

[Das Koopa]

So, who are the characters that won all of the majors this year?

Majors under my qualification list:

Supermajors:

GENESIS 3: ZeRo
CEO 2016: ANTi , , ,
EVO 2016: Ally
Super Smash Con 2016: Nairo
The Big House 6: ZeRo
2GGT: ZeRo Saga: MKLeo ,

Majors:
Pound 2016: Abadango
Get On My Level 2016: Ally
2GGT: KTAR Saga: Pink Fresh
Umebura S.A.T: KEN
Shine 2016: ZeRo
2GGT: Abadango Saga: ZeRo
Smashdown World: Komorikiri
UGC Smash Open: ZeRo