Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[JB333]

I crap on CF because he beats no one relevant and hasn't done a damn thing to shape or effect the meta.

He beats Pit.... maybe. Rosa and Ness are debatable... Oh dang it you're right

 

[L9999]

FOW's consistent success against notable bayo's is nice.

Other than JK I wasn't impressed. Everybody else he beat in his bracket was expected because FOW is just that good.

The dude hasn't played in months. Getting 17th in a 367 man tournament with Ness and not playing seriously for some time is impressive. FOW also 3-0d Captain Zack, and he is the guy who pushed Dabuz into using Olimar. Lost to Fatality because Falcon is FOW's kryptonite since he got Falcon Punched by Tearbear on-stream in FOW Saga.

He beats Pit.... maybe. Rosa and Ness are debatable... Oh dang it you're right

Judging by how fast FOW VS Fatality went this time, I would say it is a very volatile MU because both characters exploit each others weaknesses by a large margin. Personally I no longer play Ness Falcon because it drains my mind and go Lucina instead, as she trivializes the MU with her disjoints and landing coverage.

 

[my_T]

It's pretty clear that Falcon beats Ness but it's only a slight advantage for him

 

[ARGHETH]

He beats Pit.... maybe. Rosa and Ness are debatable... Oh dang it you're right

For the record, Fatality thinks (as of august) that he beats Marth, Peach, and Lucario.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Don't Park on the Grass
(201 entrants)
1st, DKwill
2nd, Konga
3rd, Exodia
4th, MVD
5th, Big D ()
5th, Captain L
7th, Looke
7th, Len
9th, Shinkou()
9th, Esam
9th, Deci
9th, FoCus
13th, Espon CH
13th, Panarian
13th, Masai
13th, RCS JR

Not sure why this isn't posted here, but two Donkey Kongs made 1st and 2nd.

Why was this Double DK in finals?!

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Five notable Bayos and not one made it into top 16...

Would be an understatement if I said that I was triggered right until I went to sleep

At least Marth won a supermajor, which made me a bit happier

Yea thst surpused and kinda disappointed me
I an not too sure in how to rank Salem now among Smash 4 players. At smaller competitions we have seen him play beyond amazing. Taking down the best players around (Collision, LBH, Olympus) and I belive he holds the distinction of being the only player double eliminate ZeRo from a tournament
However when it comes to the major tournamenr's he always seems to fall short of peoples expectations for him (Big House 6 , UGC and now ZeRo saga) To his credit he came the closest to beating ZeRo during the ZeRo vs everyone who ever took a set of him.

Then again Ally and Leo actullay did best ZeRo during the actual tournament.

Bayonetta as a character is habing tbe same issue. Is seen having great sucess and smaller competitions, no so much as the really big ones
Kinda makes me think about Bayo's future overall in the meta.

Anways here us hoping Salem can overcome his consistency issues at majors and do great at Genesis next year!

 

[JB333]

Falcon actually has decent MU's against a few high tiers, but he gets demolished by and


I think the thing holding Falcon back is his disadvantaged state... It's really really really bad.

 

[my_T]

The dude hasn't played in months. Getting 13th in a 367 man tournament with Ness and not playing seriously for some time is impressive. FOW also 3-0d Captain Zack, and he is the guy who pushed Dabuz into using Olimar. Lost to Fatality because Falcon is FOW's kryptonite since he got Falcon Punched by Tearbear on-stream in FOW Saga.


Judging by how fast FOW VS Fatality went this time, I would say it is a very volatile MU because both characters exploit each others weaknesses by a large margin. Personally I no longer play Ness Falcon because it drains my mind and go Lucina instead, as she trivializes the MU with her disjoints and landing coverage.

FOW has been playing, he just hasn't been to any majors since EVO. His only impressive win at Zero Saga was against JK as he has been doing quite well at top level through out the year and he uses bayo. Other than that everything else went as expected. We're talking about a player who was easily a contender for top 10 in the world when he was more active. It's because FOW is so good that I'm unimpressed with his performance at Zero Saga. People think FOW has fallen off of but it's really just Ness failing him in most top level interactions. It's been like this since the beginning but people have always been so focused on tournament placings that they miss the details that lie in the bracket run.

And FOW lost to Fatality because Ness loses to Falcon plain and simple.

 

[MushroomKiller]

I crap on CF because he beats no one relevant and hasn't done a damn thing to shape or effect the meta.

I can respect that, I just find it funny that people are so quick to pile on a bunch of other similar characters that haven't shaped or affected the meta in any significant way (,, etc.) ahead of .

FOW's consistent success against notable bayo's is nice.

Other than JK I wasn't impressed. Everybody else he beat in his bracket was expected because FOW is just that good.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you don't know that FOW had to go against k9sbruce's , one of 's worst (if not absolute worst) MU as well as a player he lost against before. Or the fact that he quite handily defeated Captain Zack's , though this honestly doesn't surprise me since I'm one of those crazy people who believe that the PK kids have slight-disadvantage-at-worst MU against the Umbra Witch.

It's pretty clear that Falcon beats Ness but it's only a slight advantage for him

Except it's not clear at all.
Oh wait why am I even replying to you, you already blocked me ever since I called you out on your penchant to blindly diss without any solid reasoning. NEXT!

The dude hasn't played in months. Getting 13th in a 367 man tournament with Ness and not playing seriously for some time is impressive.

Slight correction: FOW got 17th. Slightly less impressive, but still pretty solid given his absence and the fact that he encountered one of 's worst roadblock MUs along the way.
I also believe his match between Fatality could have gone either way, the whole set was basically just explosions of attacks after another.

FOW has been playing, he just hasn't been to any majors since EVO. His only impressive win at Zero Saga was against JK as he has been doing quite well at top level through out the year and he uses bayo. Other than that everything else went as expected. We're talking about a player who was easily a contender for top 10 in the world when he was more active. It's because FOW is so good that I'm unimpressed with his performance at Zero Saga. People think FOW has fallen off of but it's really just Ness failing him in most top level interactions. It's been like this since the beginning but people have always been so focused on tournament placings that they miss the details that lie in the bracket run.

And FOW lost to Fatality because Ness loses to Falcon plain and simple.

And... Just... Sigh.

Don't bother replying L9999 , nothing you say will ever change his mind.

 

[MushroomKiller]

Ignore this, I done goofed.

 

[TDK]

Why was this Double DK in finals?!

Because FreeSam showed up and not UGCSam.

 

[blackghost]

i think bayo lack of large tournemnt results just are based on the fact that top level players arent struggling with her.
bayo is an average doubles character at best. name any other top tier character if the top users of that character didnt break top 16 people would be calling that character out.
and whats bayos claim to fame at this point? if you look at it its either anecdotal or a series of flashy highlights.
the only other cmparable characters to how thier reputation is held is ryu and rosalina. neither of which is nearly seen as strong now. to be a top character you need results and bayo's results over the entire summer dont line up with other top tiers as far as i can tell.

 

[sleepy_Nex]

Because FreeSam showed up and not UGCSam.

Well at least he got into Top16 lol. I had some more faith in him after UGC.
He actually lost to the other Pika too.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Anyone want popcorn? I like how this is causing arguments over who changed the meta....

 

[my_T]

I can respect that, I just find it funny that people are so quick to pile on a bunch of other similar characters that haven't shaped or affected the meta in any significant way (,, etc.) ahead of .



I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you don't know that FOW had to go against k9sbruce's , one of 's worst (if not absolute worst) MU as well as a player he lost against before. Or the fact that he quite handily defeated Captain Zack's , though this honestly doesn't surprise me since I'm one of those crazy people who believe that the PK kids have slight-disadvantage-at-worst MU against the Umbra Witch.



Except it's not clear at all.
Oh wait why am I even replying to you, you already blocked me ever since I called you out on your penchant to blindly diss without any solid reasoning. NEXT!



Slight correction: FOW got 17th. Slightly less impressive, but still pretty solid given his absence and the fact that he encountered one of 's worst roadblock MUs along the way.
I also believe his match between Fatality could have gone either way, the whole set was basically just explosions of attacks after another.



And... Just... Sigh.

Don't bother replying L9999 , nothing you say will ever change his mind.

I'm well aware of FOW's victory over K9's sheik. FOW has taken numerous sets off of K9 even during sheik and diddy's broken days because he's just a better player. How many times am I going to have to say it before you understand that skill level makes a difference.

Let me know when he takes a set off of Void, Mr R, or Zeros sheik, then I'll be impressed. Ness's consistent success against Bayo is the only notable thing Ness has to show this year. I agree with your views on Ness vs Bayo.

and how many sets is he going to have to lose against Falcon for you to be convinced? FOW has lost at least 4 straight sets against Falcon this year alone

 

[Funbot28]

Im actually quite surprised that no Bayos came up at top 16 (ie: Salem and maybe Zack) not including Komorikiri. It seems that Dabuz and Zero really labbed the MU and are less susceptible to her jank stuff. It still astonishes me to see that people do not consider her top be top 5 when her toolkit and good results say otherwise. I still feel there is more to be discovered with this character, especially with the new lag cancel tech that was discovered not too long ago.

Marth is simply amazing right now. It might be due to the fact that MKLeo really is good with this character but Mr.E and Pugwest also are showcasing how good those buffs were to him. Dancing Blade is honestly a dumb move that has such good options for many scenarios and Dolphin Slash is one of the best combo breakers in the game rn. Fair also killing really early for him is really good at securing early KOs combined with a kill throw and grab KO setups. I am surprised people are not using his Counter more often tho as I feel its a pretty underrated option that not a lot of players are utilizing.

Also yeh, can't believe I am saying this but Rosa might not be top 10 at this point...

 

[Bowserboy3]

Not too sure if this has already been posted here (and I can't be bothered to trawl back through on the off chance it has been), but I found this rather interesting...

Of the 29 nationals since 1.1.6, this is how well characters appear to have placed overall:

https://twitter.com/Pablo_FAITH/status/810714703668408322

You can see the workings of this here: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/5j91wv/29_nationals_since_patch_116_this_is_what_a/

Also, , ,, and were all a mere 1 point away from being in the "tier" above.

Things to note from this:

• Yes, while isn't getting the outright 1st places any more, she's still one of the overall most consistently scoring characters in the game.
• The meme of not being top 10 or inconsistent, is just that; a meme.
• and still appear to be doing well, as does the ol' , which is interesting as these three often get the short end of the stick all too often.
• is also doing better than one would expect.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I think I have a theroy on why Cloud has more success and a secondary/pocker these days.

It's not becasue he isn't really good, because he is. But its actullay part of the reason why Cloud has become for lack of a bettter word oversaturated in the meta.
So many players having a pocket Cloud combined with fighting hin so much in competitos means the competitve scene now everthing there is to know about Cloud in MU's likely more than any other relevant character in the competive meta.
It's to the point people who main characters that have a decent MU vs him can handle most Cloud's and potentially "download" them

Players who use Cloud as a co-main / secondary if thier Cloud gets downloaded by the opponent. Not do much for Solo Cloud users though.

You can say that Diddy and maybe Bayo pre-patched where everywhere and still dominated the meta. But that was because thet were basically broken characters anyway.

 

[soniczx123]

Im actually quite surprised that no Bayos came up at top 16 (ie: Salem and maybe Zack) not including Komorikiri. It seems that Dabuz and Zero really labbed the MU and are less susceptible to her jank stuff. It still astonishes me to see that people do not consider her top be top 5 when her toolkit and good results say otherwise. I still feel there is more to be discovered with this character, especially with the new lag cancel tech that was discovered not too long ago.

Marth is simply amazing right now. It might be due to the fact that MKLeo really is good with this character but Mr.E and Pugwest also are showcasing how good those buffs were to him. Dancing Blade is honestly a dumb move that has such good options for many scenarios and Dolphin Slash is one of the best combo breakers in the game rn. Fair also killing really early for him is really good at securing early KOs combined with a kill throw and grab KO setups. I am surprised people are not using his Counter more often tho as I feel its a pretty underrated option that not a lot of players are utilizing.

Also yeh, can't believe I am saying this but Rosa might not be top 10 at this point...

Marth has grab KO setups??

You mean the Dthrow to Usmash read?

 

[HoSmash4]

Do you agree? Hard to tell (or were you the one who said it?).

I agree with him that it's still unsure if Marth should be over Rosa (I still see her as 10th and Marth as 11th atm). He's definitely closing in on the top 10 and could very well be part of it at this point, but I don't think Cloud would be the one who gets kicked out... if one, I'd say Rosa.

I still see top tier as 10 characters, but I guess you could include Marth to have a "top 11", but that number isn't as clean, so I just can't do it!

At this point Marth has 3 solid representatives in the Americas all capable of getting top 32 at supermajors.

Mr.E, Pugwest and Leo.
Fuwa gets respectable results in America

For Rosalina, theres Falln, Dabuz and Kirihara, so pretty similar rep.


Judging on results Cloud might not have good enough results as a solo pick, but the essence of the game means you dont have to solo main Cloud, and his effectiveness as a tertiary/secondary keeps him in the top 10 for sure.

I'd personally kick out Rosalina. She seems to be the character with one of the worst matchup spread in the top 10. Having diffiicult and possibly negative matchups against Cloud, Bayonetta, Corrin (very common characters), as well as Metaknight being a very arduous matchup to face.

Marth has results and a matchup spread more characteristic of the top 11 rather than the Villager/pikachu/megaman etc group.

 

[Y2Kay]

I'm not really sure if Marth is top tier yet.

I don't know why, he just doesn't really feel like one to me. I know his tippers are amazing, but my fighting game intuition tells me he's still a high tier character. Besides Forward Tilt, none of his kit super impresses me. When I fight top tier characters like Sheik, Diddy Kong, Bayonnetta, Mewtwo, and Rosalina, I get this almost intimidating vibe from them (when I'm playing a good player of said character at least), and it just makes me think to myself, "Damn, this character is league above mine"

But Marth doesn't really scare me like this. He's a really good character, but not so good that I would dread to fight him in bracket. Maybe it's Greninja bias? Maybe I'm not playing good Marth mains? Maybe I'm going insane? You tell me.

 

[Illuminose]

I'm not really sure if Marth is top tier yet.

I don't know why, he just doesn't really feel like one to me. I know his tippers are amazing, but my fighting game intuition tells me he's still a high tier character. Besides Forward Tilt, none of his kit super impresses me. When I fight top tier characters like Sheik, Diddy Kong, Bayonnetta, Mewtwo, and Rosalina, I get this almost intimidating vibe from them (when I'm playing a good player of said character at least), and it just makes me think to myself, "Damn, this character is league above mine"

But Marth doesn't really scare me like this. He's a really good character, but not so good that I would dread to fight him in bracket. Maybe it's Greninja bias? Maybe I'm not playing good Marth mains? Maybe I'm going insane? You tell me.

I think it's really the difference between Leo and other Marths. When Leo hits you, he gets like 3 or 4 hits and then sets up a juggle situation and reads or frame traps your landings for more percent. That or he throws you off the stage and traps you at the ledge or edgeguards. Leo's punish game is significantly better than any other Marth player on the planet. He does fluid combos with Marth and maintains advantage state very effectively, in addition to utilizing Marth's early kill potential to the maximum by capitalizing on opportunities and finding early kills consistently in general. Other Marths swing the sword and maybe get another hit or something, then reset to neutral, so you aren't nearly as scared of getting hit by them other than a random tipper. It seems that Leo in any situation, whether neutral, advantage, or disadvantage, is ready to do a lot of damage or even kill his opponent with Marth.

In general, I am of the opinion that Leo is simply demonstrating what Marth is capable of. He has developed Marth's neutral with spacing and movement to the point where it's really safe and scary, utilizing Marth's sword to bait and punish as well as just space out his opponents. He also punishes far better than any other Marth. These are things that any Marth could do, not just Leo, but he is the one who labbed out and understands what the character is fully capable of. Also, I mean, Leo winning a major with Marth should speak for itself. Not even counting Dabuz who he beat with Cloud before top 8, Leo beat ANTi, Ally, ZeRo, VoiD, and Larry Lurr with Marth at this tournament alone. He's demonstrated that Marth is very capable of not just winning but even destroying in matchups commonly considered out of his favor like Sheik, Diddy, and Fox. The only characters I am actually convinced that Marth loses to at this point (only change from this tournament is Fox from losing to winning, which I think is reasonable) are Sonic and ZSS, with a possibility of MK as well. Where else do you place a character that probably doesn't have -2 matchups, barely loses any matchups at all, and actually has a strong overall kit for neutral, advantage, and disadvantage? I think the only answer for that is top tier.

 

[L9999]

At this point Marth has 3 solid representatives in the Americas all capable of getting top 32 at supermajors.

Mr.E, Pugwest and Leo.
Fuwa gets respectable results in America

Fuwa gets results in Japan.

I'm not really sure if Marth is top tier yet.

I don't know why, he just doesn't really feel like one to me. I know his tippers are amazing, but my fighting game intuition tells me he's still a high tier character. Besides Forward Tilt, none of his kit super impresses me. When I fight top tier characters like Sheik, Diddy Kong, Bayonetta, Mewtwo, and Rosalina, I get this almost intimidating vibe from them (when I'm playing a good player of said character at least), and it just makes me think to myself, "Damn, this character is league above mine"

But Marth doesn't really scare me like this. He's a really good character, but not so good that I would dread to fight him in bracket. Maybe it's Greninja bias? Maybe I'm not playing good Marth mains? Maybe I'm going insane? You tell me.

Marcina has a very good Jab, good Up Tilt, good Uair, good Fair, Bair flips and kills, Nair is good, Dancing Blade is very good, Down Tilt is good, Up Throw is alright, the other throws open for pressure, the edge is their domain. Also has MK Leo as a rep. I would say that the average Marcina player can't stand campy Greninjas. It used to be one of Marcina's worst MUs months ago and one almost timed me out on FD.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Honestly, I just find it amusing how people quickly flip flop their opinions. People who literally 2 weeks ago were saying Marth was "nothing higher than Mid tier" are now calling him a clear cut "top tier". It just baffles me how one win at a major drastically changes public opinion, especially since Marth was acquiring numerous high placings in several tournaments before this one.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Marth has grab KO setups??

You mean the Dthrow to Usmash read?

If we're talking about straight up throw to KO setups, I suppose there is Dthrow to either Uair or Bair near the ledge on most midweights or below at around 85%. Uair catches anything other than DI away, which Bair catches.

It's overall MU based and even then still situational (though stages with platforms make this significantly easier and KO earlier, even on a few more characters). So yeah, Marth doesn't really have grab to KO setups.

He does have something guarunteed out of Dthrow mind, right up until around 140%; Dthrow to an aerial up to about 85% as above, and after that Dthrow to follow DI Dolphin Slash is indeed true (thanks Izaw) up to around 140%. This is good because at percents after this stops working, Up Throw will start KO'ing (with a bit of rage that is). It's something Marth really appreciates, and compliments his kit well. At higher percents, or last hit situations, Marth can simply space out his opponent, which leads to two things - 1) landing a tipper and KO'ing, or 2) because his tipper can KO, he can force the opponent to shield, which is a free Dthrow to Dolphin Slash for him. For each of these he lands, the opponent must respect him more and more, because the stage positioning needed to KO becomes more and more lenient as the percents rise (and of course Up Throw becomes ever more a threat)... this is something I see overlooked when discussing Marth and it's a very good think Marth has.

---

Perhaps the fact that people aren't seeing Marth as a top tier character yet is because there is probably only one person on the planet using him in his completely optimal style (take a wild guess who). With other top tiers, like Sheik, Rosalina, Mario, Sonic, it's pretty easy establish them as top tiers because (alongside their crazy options in most situations), their games do still flow a lot easier than Marth's. Marth's requires a lot more thought to get right, but as Leo has proven to us, when it is right, it certainly is enough to allow him to compete.

Another thing that might make Marth less likely to be top tier is the fact yes, he does have less crazy options than the other top tiers. You might struggle to count all of Sheik's, Bayonetta's, Rosalina's, Sonic's etc borderline broken options on both your hands, but all Marth has that hold a candle to those are 2 things; Jab and Ftilt (and potentially Dancing Blade). Yes, having the multitude of options is nice, and it certainly makes it easier to establish a character with those tools as a top tier, but those few options Marth has work incredibly well into his kit and play pivotol roles to his success (Jab is probably his best move). If we were to strip away Diddy's Banana, he's still got his amazing poke in Dtilt that leads into many, many things. Marth's Jab is incredibly similar.

Essentially, what I am saying is that you can have as many amazing tools as you like, because if the character with less tools still functions on their lesser amount of tools, what does it matter? In a way, it's similar to Palutena, who the majority of her moveset is borderline trash, but the few good moves she possesses flow into each other incredibly well.

As a Marth main, do I think Marth is top tier? I'm still on the fence. I can see both sides of the arguement. I suppose I am just happier/more used to seeing him near the top of high tier that it throws up a warning light in my head when I see him in top tier... but that's not totally outlandish as an idea now... It's hard...

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

So im pretty sure we have a consensus for sword fighter rankings in this game. I could see Marth and Cloud battling it out for the title of the best swordfighter, but im still hesitant to hop on the marth hype train just yet.

 

[bc1910]

I'll throw my hat into the "Marth isn't top tier" ring. Not yet, anyway.

There's a decent argument for Marth having a couple of strong top tier MUs (notably Diddy) and Leo just being that good.

When I watch Pugwest or Mr E I don't get the suffocating sense of "this character is bonkers" that I get when I watch Sheik, Bayo, Diddy or even Rosa. His disadvantage state is also undeniably pretty average.

Meh. Maybe I'm still spoiled from Brawl Marth.

Depends on what we count Apex 2016 as. If we count it as a major, then yes Rosa has 1 win, if not then no.

I think if someone is going to usurped by Marth either now or in the future it's going to be ZSS or Rosa. That doesn't mean that they wouldn't be top tier though. It's entirely possible for top tier to expand past 10 characters, as much as people might not like to admit it because 11 just isn't a round number like 10 is.

VoiD and Mr. R constantly get top 8, and it's not uncommon for one of them to make at least top 4. VoiD got 3rd at ZeRo Saga last night, a higher placing than ZeRo. I think Sheik definitely has what it takes to win a major or a super major, it just hasn't happened yet. It's a little hard to do when tournaments are dominated by ZeRo. If VoiD hadn't lost to Leo in losers, I think he could have taken the tournament.

"If X hadn't lost to Y he could have taken the tournament."

I'm hoping I don't have to explain the problems with that statement?

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Marth has grab KO setups??

You mean the Dthrow to Usmash read?

There have been pages upon pages upon pages of Marcina kill confirm discussions. Rather than risk anything like that starting up again I'll leave it at yes he has kill confirms from Jab, nair, dancing blade 1, and uair along side raw kill power, amazing edge guarding, and some pretty good means of ledge trapping.

"If X hadn't lost to Y he could have taken the tournament."

I'm hoping I don't have to explain the problems with that statement?

VoiD is the one that point Leo into losers in the first place, I see no reason to believe he didn't at least have a chance of beating Leo again, and VoiD and Larry were tied 18-18 sets at the start of this tournament, now 18-19, so again I see no reason to believe he couldn't have beat Larry either if he had made it back through losers to Grand Finals.
I'm not downplaying his loss, he got straight up destroyed by Leo that second set, that's pretty obvious, but he definitely had a very good chance to taking the tournament even after getting knocked into losers. It just didn't end up in his favor.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Honestly, I just find it amusing how people quickly flip flop their opinions. People who literally 2 weeks ago were saying Marth was "nothing higher than Mid tier" are now calling him a clear cut "top tier". It just baffles me how one win at a major drastically changes public opinion, especially since Marth was acquiring numerous high placings in several tournaments before this one.

I know, this seems to happen when certain characters get breakout performances by good players so everyone forgets that they've been doing this for awhile!
However, tbf a lot of us don't remember or are too lazy to check back with older tourneys (despite the latest patch only coming out in July roughly five months back).
There's also someone who steps back and says 'wait up everyone! We still have no clue if it's just because of the player OR the character' but this is immediately shot down by other people claiming that if that was the case then the player would've had a showing before this discounting the time and effort needed to properly practice with and lab a character.
I just shrug and just let the opinions go off while grabbing a cold soda pop and laughing at the herd mentality of some people.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Honestly, I just find it amusing how people quickly flip flop their opinions. People who literally 2 weeks ago were saying Marth was "nothing higher than Mid tier" are now calling him a clear cut "top tier". It just baffles me how one win at a major drastically changes public opinion, especially since Marth was acquiring numerous high placings in several tournaments before this one.

They were heavily considered for top 15 before the current tier came out though. The first few pages of this thread are mostly "marcina is underrated on this list" and "Charizards position is a joke"

 

[bc1910]

VoiD is the one that point Leo into losers in the first place, I see no reason to believe he didn't at least have a chance of beating Leo again, and VoiD and Larry were tied 18-18 sets at the start of this tournament, now 18-19, so again I see no reason to believe he couldn't have beat Larry either if he had made it back through losers to Grand Finals.
I'm not downplaying his loss, he got straight up destroyed by Leo that second set, that's pretty obvious, but he definitely had a very good chance to taking the tournament even after getting knocked into losers. It just didn't end up in his favor.

It doesn't matter if VoiD could have won. He didn't win. That isn't how tournaments work.

I don't mean to be obtuse, it's just that VoiD's ability to win sets that he lost isn't a point in favour of Sheik's ability to win a major.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

It doesn't matter if VoiD could have won. He didn't win. That isn't how tournaments work.

I don't mean to be obtuse, it's just that VoiD's ability to win sets that he lost isn't a point in favour of Sheik's ability to win a major.

But VoiD and Mr. R's frequent top 4 placings are showings that Sheik does have what it takes to win a major, which was the main point of my original comment. Like I said, it's a bit hard to win when ZeRo wins almost everything and the few tournaments that he doesn't win and he's in top 8 for are won by Ally with the only exception being last night won by Leo. Consistency at this many huge tournaments should be enough to say she's good enough to win at least one.

 

[Funbot28]

I still feel that Marth has a bit left to prove before joining the top tiers, but I really can foresee his dominance in 2017 if more top players decide to pick him up. He also has quite a good moveset and I always fear facing him even as Bayo due to the omnipresence of Dancling Blade all the time.

 

[ARGHETH]

But VoiD and Mr. R's frequent top 4 placings are showings that Sheik does have what it takes to win a major, which was the main point of my original comment.

Fun fact: Sheik has placed top 5 at almost every major this year, except GOML (Mr R got 7th), 2ggt Aba saga (Void got 9th), and KTAR XIX and Shine (which neither attended).

 

[|RK|]

Wait, Fox vs Marth is in Marth's favor now? Tbh, that looked relatively even if not in Fox's favor still. Larry threw game 5 away, hard. But it looks like Fox lovvvvveeeeessss Marth's landing issues, and Marth loveeeeesssss Fox's recovery and disadvantage state.

I think Leo straight up outplayed Larry.

 

[Krysco]

Before Leo became a well known Marth name, the 3 names I saw thrown around for Marth were Mr. E, Pugwest and I believe False. What ever happened to the last one? Did he drop the character or the game or has he simply not been doing as well or am I thinking of a completely different player...?

I also wonder where people's thoughts on Lucina stand if Marth is looking more and more like a top 10/top tier character. Surely it's higher than the current 'lowest mid tier character'. Also quite surprised how back when the current 4BR tier list came out, Corrin and Marth were deemed pretty much neck and neck with either being able to be better than the other. And here we are with Marth clearly deemed the better character by most. Guessing a large part of that is the mobility difference along with Corrin's 'broken' button being less applicable than Marth's (Dragon Lunge forcing you to move after it's used, whether you hit or miss, meanwhile if Marth whiffs jab, he can stay in place and pressure with more jabs or ftilts/dtilts/DB so long as he isn't punished) That and results.

 

[NairWizard]

The takeaway on Marth from this tournament isn't "Marth won, so he might be top tier," it's that Marth's neutral and advantage states are really, really, really good. You only have to watch Leo play neutral to understand that yes, Marth has all the tools he needs to to be in top tier. He probably has one of the best neutrals in the cast, top 5 easily, and an advantage game that complements it. It's wild. This character is hot fire.

The sad thing is that had Leo not won this tournament no one would have noticed how well Marth's tools work.

Watch the actual matches, don't just look at the results.

 

[FeelMeUp]

He probably has one of the best neutrals in the cast, top 5 easily,

Explain.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Fox is still bad for Marth. Even Leo looked like he was having some troubles with Fox, it just wasn't worth it to switch off to another character and thank goodness because I don't think his Cloud would have been able to cut it and I have no idea how good the Meta Knight v. Fox match up is but I wouldn't be surprised if Fox had an edge there too. Getting tippers, shield breaks, and early blast zone kills certainly helped a lot at forcing Fox into playing Marth's game, and while Marth doesn't really have a bad stage, Battlefield is one of his better ones and they went there a lot, allowing Leo to create a bubble underneath the platforms and never allow Larry, or any other player that took him there, back near the center.

 

[Illuminose]

Fox is still bad for Marth. Even Leo looked like he was having some troubles with Fox, it just wasn't worth it to switch off to another character and thank goodness because I don't think his Cloud would have been able to cut it and I have no idea how good the Meta Knight v. Fox match up is but I wouldn't be surprised if Fox had an edge there too. Getting tippers, shield breaks, and early blast zone kills certainly helped a lot at forcing Fox into playing Marth's game, and while Marth doesn't really have a bad stage, Battlefield is one of his better ones and they went there a lot, allowing Leo to create a bubble underneath the platforms and never allow Larry, or any other player that took him there, back near the center.

It's worth noting that Battlefield is one of Fox's best stages as well. It's easier to pressure Marth's landings to some extent too, not just Fox's, because of the way Marth lands. Marth's landings mostly come from a combination of smart dodges and aerials (falling up air on shield, generally fairly safe falling neutral air, down air). It's a lot harder to pull off the landing aerial mixups on Battlefield because Marth will just land with lag on the platforms instead of on his opponent's shield, which actually makes his landings less safe. In general, Fox's punish game is so good on Battlefield with the platforms that it ends up being a good pick. Where else do you go? Smashville is not a particularly good stage for Fox and is incredible for Marth because of how much space his sword covers on that stage, close side blastzones, and the insane early kills he can get with platform combos. Lylat is iffy for Fox in general. FD/Duck Hunt make it more difficult to deal with Marth's neutral because it is simpler to keep Fox out. The tri-platform layouts and maybe T&C are definitely the best stages Fox can get in the Fox vs Marth matchup because they offer Fox better opportunities in terms of neutral and punish game).

Some of the reasons that Leo looked like he was having trouble at times with Fox were probably more related to Larry reading his rolls than anything else. This may not be Melee, but Fox is still punished incredibly hard by Marth to the extent where he can die from combos and punishes without much surprise. Marth's punish game and walling out Fox's limbs with his sword make up for his deficiencies in dealing with Fox up close and when Fox is under him, which are the two worst scenarios for Marth. Both characters can execute crazy punishes on each other and have various aspects of neutral that work out to around an even neutral overall, if not even slightly in Marth's favor for the neutral aspect of the match. Fox's advantage is the juggle game, specifically his consistency in setting up the juggles, but Marth has juggles too so I think this advantage isn't too absurd. I think realistically Fox vs Marth works out to around even.