Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Deleted member]

Not to do the whole "I'm going to blindly defend my main" thing but your selling Ness short. Ness is very good at racking damage up very quickly off a few wins in neutral be it powerful grab combos or his strong aerial strings. Which the quickly puts you in kill percentage for his BThrow, Up air, Back Air, Down Smash, Fsmash or near ledge Nair. Ness is also very good at ledge guarding do not underestimate how much danger PK Thunder/Fire can put a recovering opponent in and the damage you can rack up off it. He's one of the few characters who can challenge Bayonetta off stage as she flies around with her massive hitboxes and totally safe while doing so on stage controlling the Thunder ball. His down smash is one of the best moves in the game at catching two frames and make recoveries without hitboxes that extend onto stage like Ryu or Marth dangerous everytime they are used.

Ness' disadvantage is bad yes, but your writing off all his strengths on the basis of a bad recovery alone. You gotta throw Ness off stage first and that's not necessarily the easiest thing to do especially when he has a lead. It's like instantly writing Little Mac off because you can gimp him off stage at 10% and kill him, you gotta get through his amazing ground game first.

He's no way a top ten character at all, too many weaknesses but I always have to question why people are so quick to try and put him in that "meh" category of characters.

If only every character in Smash 4 was viewed this way...

 

[bc1910]

Ness' disadvantage is bad yes, but your writing off all his strengths on the basis of a bad recovery alone. You gotta throw Ness off stage first and that's not necessarily the easiest thing to do especially when he has a lead. It's like instantly writing Little Mac off because you can gimp him off stage at 10% and kill him, you gotta get through his amazing ground game first.

He's no way a top ten character at all, too many weaknesses but I always have to question why people are so quick to try and put him in that "meh" category of characters.

I did nothing of the sort, but perhaps I should have made it clear that I appreciate the full scope of Ness' weaknesses.

Poor overall range, a susceptible second jump, slow projectiles, poor mobility and average-poor grounded frame data leave him with a predictable and exploitable neutral game. His disadvantage is actually not that bad considering PKT2 is fairly fast and will kill you if you mess up whilst trying to edgeguard it. His floaty airdodge and f5 Nair ensure that he's suitably difficult to combo. His recovery is below average though, and is a deal breaker against certain top tiers.

Ness' strengths include a formiddable OoS game, decent edgeguarding and the fact that he oozes kill power out of every orifice. These are particularly powerful assets and make him a character that you should never sleep on or count out of any MU. I see them as "bonuses" to an otherwise pretty average character.

I don't think Ness will drop into the lower half of the cast, but I don't see him as a top 15 or top 20 threat any more. He doesn't have the results for it either. He's not "fantastic". I don't think Ness is bad (there are others who frequent this thread who don't even consider him "good", by the way), just outclassed by enough characters to push him into the 20-25 range.

 

[Game7a1]

Regional happened in Mexico about a week or so ago, just so this doesn't escape anybody's radar:

ConComics 2016 (Mexico | December 10-11, 2016 | 156 entrants)

1) Wonf
2) Javi
3) Bedgar
4) Regi Shikimi
5) Brian
5) Yasuo
7) Sou
7) QROG (no idea who he plays)
9) Mr~Wamu
9) Eeveecario
9) Woah JuanK (anotha one)
9) Lalo
13) StrongHold
13) Ripka

Spoiler: Bunch of other peeps who got 17th

AnDDDy
b3toh
Peterp
Gideon
FuerzaDON
Cardy
MASTER PUFFY
Gio

I see MASTER PUFFY is doing work both online and offline. Good for him.
Do you know of there is a bracket link?

 

[FeelMeUp]

He's got more disjoints than all of the good characters--sometimes combined--with the exception of Luma (which only partially counts because it takes damage in some way when getting hit) and enough mobility to keep opponents out of close quarters, which enables him to abuse that disjoint.

With just an in-place SH airdodge, Marth covers a huge radius of space between up-air, f-air, and b-air that can punish almost any commitment. Heck, the simple act of Marth moving away from you spacing puts the ball in his court because if both players delay a button press for as long as possible Marth's going to win out because of his massive disjoint. Just watch the first game of Leo vs. ZeRo and you'll see how difficult it is for Diddy to get into d-tilt spacing range because Marth perfect pivoting backwards is so scary (the threat of jab is huge, and at death percents, any tipper tilt or aerial could be death). It's not even just that one yomi exchange, though. For every option that Diddy has in neutral, from holding a banana and waiting to f-air walling to dashgrabs to d-tilt spacing, Leo had a lot of counterplay available to him, from short hop reaction f-air to dancing blade to pivot f-tilt to perfect pivot jab and more. It's incredible to be able to contend with a character like Diddy Kong in the neutral and have multiple options for doing so.

But it's not just about winning exchanges or creating counterplay/set-play moments, because reacting in this game is precarious enough to force guesswork at least some of the time. Sometimes, Marth just hits you on a guess, like an anticipated shield drop for a delayed f-tilt, and with good spacing such a guess will threaten kill you at virtually no risk to himself. It's not the same as Mario reading a roll and f-smashing, because these moves are Marth's long-ranged, disjointed tilts and aerials. Marth's "hard reads" are hardly reads, because they often don't lead to punishment.

Literally all of his relevant moves (except the poking move d-tilt) have this quality at reasonable percents. We're not talking about an advantage-state conversion. We're talking about a straight-out-of-neutral-you-just-slammed-into-the-blastzone-son one way trip to death. You get hit by one guess in the middle of the match and you just explode.

Tipper is not an advantage-state mechanic, it is a neutral mechanic; tipper forces you to play in a certain way to avoid getting obliterated by a random hitbox.

Finally, jab has one of the best (hitbox*reward) : speed ratios in the entire game, it's totally bonkers how much stuff jab leads into with that big of a radius, and it's applicable to a wide variety of situations in neutral. In fact, for many characters, "ideal play" against Marth involves getting close enough to suffocate him in close quarters, which in turn means setting themselves up to get jabbed. Which is beyond hilarious.

Character's neutral is mad good.

Eh.
His run speed isn't amazing. His aerialspeed/accel are just average. His options out of walk are broken but his walk accel is lol.
Options out of run aren't that great. Has a lot of trouble catching people with flips(Flip Jump, Bouncing Fish, Monkey Flip) because of how slow he is, despite having a long disjointed sword. His OoS game isn't great. His frame data is only average(but I'd put it at above average because swordie). His dash to shield is godawful. His jumpsquat is just average. He has to approach almost everyone and play on most of the top tier's terms.
I don't disagree that his neutral is good, but it's not as spectacular as you're making it seem.
There's not much here that makes his neutral look better than any character out of .
When you're playing Marth, there's no question of "how the hell am I going to hit this guy without getting hit myself," which is what a good neutral is all about. Top 5 neutral seems like a huge stretch to me, but if you changed that to top 10-15 it wouldn't seem as questionable.

 

[Deleted member]

I see MASTER PUFFY is doing work both online and offline. Good for him.
Do you know of there is a bracket link?

Here ye go.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I did nothing of the sort, but perhaps I should have made it clear that I appreciate the full scope of Ness' weaknesses.

Poor overall range, a susceptible second jump, slow projectiles, poor mobility and average-poor grounded frame data leave him with a predictable and exploitable neutral game. His disadvantage is actually not that bad considering PKT2 is fairly fast and will kill you if you mess up whilst trying to edgeguard it. His floaty airdodge and f5 Nair ensure that he's suitably difficult to combo. His recovery is below average though, and is a deal breaker against certain top tiers.

Ness' strengths include a formiddable OoS game, decent edgeguarding and the fact that he oozes kill power out of every orifice. These are particularly powerful assets and make him a character that you should never sleep on or count out of any MU. I see them as "bonuses" to an otherwise pretty average character.

I don't think Ness will drop into the lower half of the cast, but I don't see him as a top 15 or top 20 threat any more. He doesn't have the results for it either. He's not "fantastic". I don't think Ness is bad (there are others who frequent this thread who don't even consider him "good", by the way), just outclassed by enough characters to push him into the 20-25 range.

Your right about his weaknesses, his projectiles aren't used to zone so they can afford to be slower so I will say that but everything else you are correct on. He's strengths just outweigh his weaknesses and I find it odd people are quick to throw him down as a average character when he's everything but average (not saying it's you who is saying this I just mean in general). Having that incredible kill power and potential alone will always keep him from being another average mid tier.

His results have taken a slight dip but it's actually not been by that much he's been hovering in that 16-22 range even after his two best mains disappeared. With FOW back he might even start getting a bump in results at super majors now.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Random thought:
Players like MKLeo, Salem, Larry Lurr, and Abadango succeed because their advantage states are so strong. Smash 4 players generally have fantastic neutral play but godawful disadvantage states that are only made worse depending on what characters they play. These players are all fantastic at both extending advantage for as long as possible and sealing stocks insanely early. Their strengths make up for the fact that many of them may be very weak in certain areas(Aba/Salem neutral, Larry disadvantage, Leo's.....something...). There is, however, many instances of HORRIBLE disadvantage play in our community that players tend to gloss over and instead stack on top of their "list of reasons this character is dumb."

VoiD, for example, has a fairly strong neutral and a terrifying advantage but his disadvantage is average at best when looking at his other top tier players. However, he plays . It's a lot easier to get away with having a weaker disadvantage as long as the opponent's hits don't convert into death because he kills extremely early for this character and doesn't lose neutral very often. But when he does lose neutral his often....questionable combo DI is exposed. A lot of the things that happen between he and Nairo/Dabuz only really happen because of his poor airdodge and DI habits.

ZeRo has what is, imo, a top 5 disadvantage state with a top tier advantage and top tier neutral. His DI is absolutely fantastic(minimizes damage perfectly on Fox dash attack/utilt and Rosa uthrow) and he seems to have the best sense of when to attack out of strings. Even though he mains a character with a rather mediocre recovery ZeRo rarely gets gimped and is very consistent in knowing that it's much better to reset to ledge and take damage than try to land on people with airdodges and die at 40.
Yet, once pressured he starts giving away free openings in neutral and disadvantage with nervous monkey flips, poor banana pluck timings, or really bad airdodges. He misses timings on simple things like grabbing standard getup or reacting to bair on ledge jumps. Fishes for really simple things that can be easy to avoid(dtilt, grabs on forward rolls, utilt) instead of playing passively and faking aggression until the opportunity presents itself. Oversimplifying his gameplay and looking for very linear options instead of looking for what could potentially work is often his downfall, and is why he often can't kill until 160s.
Once ZeRo starts getting juggled vertically you see him immediately panic and start DIing terribly, i.e:
https://youtu.be/TVxgOl3bPmw?t=14m31s
https://youtu.be/Ym5owFGhtj4?t=18m59s

Most players put too much into their advantage and neutral states but try and let their disadvantage develop naturally rather than seeing it can and SHOULD be trained.
These are the things I feel should be practiced more in order to improve the individual holes in most player's gameplay:

• Correct survival DI recognition on deceptive moves such as Greninja/Marth Uthrow, Luma Uair, Diddy/Sheik Uair crossup, Luigi Dthrow at various %s to avoid Uair Bair or Cyclone, etc
• Correct SDI inputs at the proper angle with appropriate speed
• Correct combo DI to not have long extensions or unnecessary deaths against characters like
• Properly studying when to airdodge, why you should airdodge, what the opponent could get if you DO or DON'T airdodge, etc. Makes or breaks certain character advantage states and death 50:50s()
• Understanding what moves can be punished on block, should be punished on block, can be punished on whiff, should be punished on whiff, etc
• Understanding how ladders/50:50s work and how they interact with platforms, airdodges, attacks, and jumps
• Learning what your character's best options to escape or attack out of strings are
• Being able to recognize what moves string(Most stuff at low %), frame trap(Anything involving ), combo(2 Utilts after 30 but not at 0 on most), or don't link unless you airdodge(Knee in most situations out of throws)

There's a lot more, but it's a shame that the game is two years in and everyone's talking about magical things like how you can extend certain hits and get more openings but.....ignoring that you'll eventually be on the receiving end.
Gotta learn how to take a hit, too.

 

[Emblem Lord]

lol how did you just realize most top smash players have bad choices in disadvantage?

Of course they do. They do not play characters that force them to develop such skills. Compare them to melee players where even mid level players have solid DI and do not panic under pressure.

The game engine itself fosters a certain environment that the players are products of.

 

[FeelMeUp]

lol how did you just realized most top smash players have bad choices in disadvantage?

Of course they do. They do not play characters that force them to develop such skills. Compare them to melee players where even mid level players have solid DI and do not panic under pressure.

The game engine itself fosters a certain environment that the players are products of.

I've been thinking about it ever since TBH5 or so.
Just never said anything because I thought the community would eventually grow to fix the problem. But that...unfortunately hasn't been the case.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Why grow when your character can do the work for you.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Random thought:
Players like MKLeo, Salem, Larry Lurr, and Abadango succeed because their advantage states are so strong. Smash 4 players generally have fantastic neutral play but godawful disadvantage states that are only made worse depending on what characters they play. These players are all fantastic at both extending advantage for as long as possible and sealing stocks insanely early. Their strengths make up for the fact that many of them may be very weak in certain areas(Aba/Salem neutral, Larry disadvantage, Leo's.....something...). There is, however, many instances of HORRIBLE disadvantage play in our community that players tend to gloss over and instead stack on top of their "list of reasons this character is dumb."

VoiD, for example, has a fairly strong neutral and a terrifying advantage but his disadvantage is average at best when looking at his other top tier players. However, he plays . It's a lot easier to get away with having a weaker disadvantage as long as the opponent's hits don't convert into death because he kills extremely early for this character and doesn't lose neutral very often. But when he does lose neutral his often....questionable combo DI is exposed. A lot of the things that happen between he and Nairo/Dabuz only really happen because of his poor airdodge and DI habits.

ZeRo has what is, imo, a top 5 disadvantage state with a top tier advantage and top tier neutral. His DI is absolutely fantastic(minimizes damage perfectly on Fox dash attack/utilt and Rosa uthrow) and he seems to have the best sense of when to attack out of strings. Even though he mains a character with a rather mediocre recovery ZeRo rarely gets gimped and is very consistent in knowing that it's much better to reset to ledge and take damage than try to land on people with airdodges and die at 40.
Yet, once pressured he starts giving away free openings in neutral and disadvantage with nervous monkey flips, poor banana pluck timings, or really bad airdodges. He misses timings on simple things like grabbing standard getup or reacting to bair on ledge jumps. Fishes for really simple things that can be easy to avoid(dtilt, grabs on forward rolls, utilt) instead of playing passively and faking aggression until the opportunity presents itself. Oversimplifying his gameplay and looking for very linear options instead of looking for what could potentially work is often his downfall, and is why he often can't kill until 160s.
Once ZeRo starts getting juggled vertically you see him immediately panic and start DIing terribly, i.e:
https://youtu.be/TVxgOl3bPmw?t=14m31s
https://youtu.be/Ym5owFGhtj4?t=18m59s

Most players put too much into their advantage and neutral states but try and let their disadvantage develop naturally rather than seeing it can and SHOULD be trained.
These are the things I feel should be practiced more in order to improve the individual holes in most player's gameplay:

• Correct survival DI recognition on deceptive moves such as Greninja/Marth Uthrow, Luma Uair, Diddy/Sheik Uair crossup, Luigi Dthrow at various %s to avoid Uair Bair or Cyclone, etc
• Correct SDI inputs at the proper angle with appropriate speed
• Correct combo DI to not have long extensions or unnecessary deaths against characters like
• Properly studying when to airdodge, why you should airdodge, what the opponent could get if you DO or DON'T airdodge, etc. Makes or breaks certain character advantage states and death 50:50s()
• Understanding what moves can be punished on block, should be punished on block, can be punished on whiff, should be punished on whiff, etc
• Understanding how ladders/50:50s work and how they interact with platforms, airdodges, attacks, and jumps
• Learning what your character's best options to escape or attack out of strings are
• Being able to recognize what moves string(Most stuff at low %), frame trap(Anything involving ), combo(2 Utilts after 30 but not at 0 on most), or don't link unless you airdodge(Knee in most situations out of throws)

There's a lot more, but it's a shame that the game is two years in and everyone's talking about magical things like how you can extend certain hits and get more openings but.....ignoring that you'll eventually be on the receiving end.
Gotta learn how to take a hit, too.

I've noticed that a lot myself, aside from not knowing disadvantage I've noticed that players not used to being behind in a matchup go into a sort of 'panic' mode where instead of going for their usual strategy they start to undergo a mentality of wanting to play catch-up. This causes them to make unnecessary risky moves that are easily punished and if they don't snap out of it can cost them the game too.

 

[HoSmash4]

Being able to di the amazing combo setups I.e sheik ftilt, fox utilt/dash attack, Diddy utilt and Bayo witch twist is actually so important.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

ZeRo has what is, imo, a top 5 disadvantage state [...]

And by top 5 you probably mean top 1, right?

 

[FeelMeUp]

And by top 5 you probably mean top 1, right?

Most likely.
Didn't want want to commit to that, though, because there are a lot of Japanese player's disadvantages I haven't looked at yet.

 

[HoSmash4]

Dabuz's disadvantage is actually bonkers, but it's Rosalina so he can't do much at times

 

[Mr. Johan]

The only way Diddy could have a "mediocre" recovery would be if Rocketbarrels couldn't turn on a dime.

There's a reason ZeRo UpBs early/far enough out where a first jump alone isn't enough to get to him.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Diddy's recovery is mediocre when you look at characters like ZSS, Bayonetta, Sheik and Mewtwo. Even Palutena or Zelda to a lesser extent.
Those are very good. Excellent, really. His is "okay" in comparison.

Edit: Disadvantage wise he isn't amazing either. Good at escaping juggle situations but has a hurtbox that's slightly too big to help a lot with SDI/DI in combos, is a fastfaller, has garbage airspeed and is relatively heavy.

 

[HoSmash4]

Eh what makes Diddy disadvantage state solid enough is his side b and fair, giving him two strong mixups in a juggling position. I'd take Diddy disadvantage over Zelda,palutena's anyday

 

[SaltyKracka]

Diddy's recovery is mediocre when you look at characters like ZSS, Bayonetta, Sheik and Mewtwo. Even Palutena or Zelda to a lesser extent.
Those are very good. Excellent, really. His is "okay" in comparison.

Edit: Disadvantage wise he isn't amazing either. Good at escaping juggle situations but has a hurtbox that's slightly too big to help a lot with SDI/DI in combos, is a fastfaller, has garbage airspeed and is relatively heavy.

"Diddy's recovery is mediocre in comparison to characters with braindead easy and free recoveries"

This form of intellectual cancer needs to die. Yes, a finite number can look small when compared to infinity. This does not make it a small number.

 

[Das Koopa]

Everyone likes matchup charts! I'll post my updated chart, not much changes from last time pic.twitter.com/VYC16lOpSO

— Liquid | Dabuz (@DabuzSenpai) December 20, 2016

Dabuz seems to think Peach is a lean-losing matchup now.

 

[FeelMeUp]

"Diddy's recovery is mediocre in comparison to characters with braindead easy and free recoveries"

This form of intellectual cancer needs to die. Yes, a finite number can look small when compared to infinity. This does not make it a small number.

3 members of the top 5 have broken recoveries.
1 has a recovery that's roughly in the middle(Sonic) but is far better than the majority of the cast.
1 has a recovery that is significantly worse than the rest.
How would it not be correct to say his recovery is mediocre?
It's true even in comparison to other upper mid tiers.

 

[chaos11011]

Random thought:
Players like MKLeo, Salem, Larry Lurr, and Abadango succeed because their advantage states are so strong. Smash 4 players generally have fantastic neutral play but godawful disadvantage states that are only made worse depending on what characters they play. These players are all fantastic at both extending advantage for as long as possible and sealing stocks insanely early. Their strengths make up for the fact that many of them may be very weak in certain areas(Aba/Salem neutral, Larry disadvantage, Leo's.....something...). There is, however, many instances of HORRIBLE disadvantage play in our community that players tend to gloss over and instead stack on top of their "list of reasons this character is dumb."

VoiD, for example, has a fairly strong neutral and a terrifying advantage but his disadvantage is average at best when looking at his other top tier players. However, he plays . It's a lot easier to get away with having a weaker disadvantage as long as the opponent's hits don't convert into death because he kills extremely early for this character and doesn't lose neutral very often. But when he does lose neutral his often....questionable combo DI is exposed. A lot of the things that happen between he and Nairo/Dabuz only really happen because of his poor airdodge and DI habits.

ZeRo has what is, imo, a top 5 disadvantage state with a top tier advantage and top tier neutral. His DI is absolutely fantastic(minimizes damage perfectly on Fox dash attack/utilt and Rosa uthrow) and he seems to have the best sense of when to attack out of strings. Even though he mains a character with a rather mediocre recovery ZeRo rarely gets gimped and is very consistent in knowing that it's much better to reset to ledge and take damage than try to land on people with airdodges and die at 40.
Yet, once pressured he starts giving away free openings in neutral and disadvantage with nervous monkey flips, poor banana pluck timings, or really bad airdodges. He misses timings on simple things like grabbing standard getup or reacting to bair on ledge jumps. Fishes for really simple things that can be easy to avoid(dtilt, grabs on forward rolls, utilt) instead of playing passively and faking aggression until the opportunity presents itself. Oversimplifying his gameplay and looking for very linear options instead of looking for what could potentially work is often his downfall, and is why he often can't kill until 160s.
Once ZeRo starts getting juggled vertically you see him immediately panic and start DIing terribly, i.e:
https://youtu.be/TVxgOl3bPmw?t=14m31s
https://youtu.be/Ym5owFGhtj4?t=18m59s

Most players put too much into their advantage and neutral states but try and let their disadvantage develop naturally rather than seeing it can and SHOULD be trained.
These are the things I feel should be practiced more in order to improve the individual holes in most player's gameplay:

• Correct survival DI recognition on deceptive moves such as Greninja/Marth Uthrow, Luma Uair, Diddy/Sheik Uair crossup, Luigi Dthrow at various %s to avoid Uair Bair or Cyclone, etc
• Correct SDI inputs at the proper angle with appropriate speed
• Correct combo DI to not have long extensions or unnecessary deaths against characters like
• Properly studying when to airdodge, why you should airdodge, what the opponent could get if you DO or DON'T airdodge, etc. Makes or breaks certain character advantage states and death 50:50s()
• Understanding what moves can be punished on block, should be punished on block, can be punished on whiff, should be punished on whiff, etc
• Understanding how ladders/50:50s work and how they interact with platforms, airdodges, attacks, and jumps
• Learning what your character's best options to escape or attack out of strings are
• Being able to recognize what moves string(Most stuff at low %), frame trap(Anything involving ), combo(2 Utilts after 30 but not at 0 on most), or don't link unless you airdodge(Knee in most situations out of throws)

There's a lot more, but it's a shame that the game is two years in and everyone's talking about magical things like how you can extend certain hits and get more openings but.....ignoring that you'll eventually be on the receiving end.
Gotta learn how to take a hit, too.

I've always talked about how there should be a master post for proper survival and smash DI for certain moves. There's no real way to find out without seeing for yourself. A convenient spot to look it up can further the play of many.

Example, I know there is a way to DI out of Captain Falcon's UAir to knee, but I always forget the proper DI for it. Out or in? Up or down? Things like that can help many players with the same concerns on different topics.

 

[my_T]

Your right about his weaknesses, his projectiles aren't used to zone so they can afford to be slower so I will say that but everything else you are correct on. He's strengths just outweigh his weaknesses and I find it odd people are quick to throw him down as a average character when he's everything but average (not saying it's you who is saying this I just mean in general). Having that incredible kill power and potential alone will always keep him from being another average mid tier.

His results have taken a slight dip but it's actually not been by that much he's been hovering in that 16-22 range even after his two best mains disappeared. With FOW back he might even start getting a bump in results at super majors now.

So having a good advantage state in terms of kill power and damage output makes up for having a poor neutral and a mediocre disadvantage state?

Ness is a solid mid-tier

Name one character that's worthy of high/top tier that isn't at least good/average in 2 out of the 3 states of fighting games

 

[blackghost]

panic in disadvantage state was displayed in full in the mk leo sets.
i dont remember leo even being much in disadvantage so its hard to evalutate him. zero has lost multiuple sets (prince ramen and mk leo) for being predictable and trying to do the easy option instead of the correct option.
it really is a shame that we as a community haven't pushed more skil in di and sdi and disadvantage in general. smash is the only fighting gae were you need to actively be playing defense while you are being hit yet a large portion of this community ignores that aspect of the game.
we are past the stage of learning characters and adjusting to nerfs its time to see real improvements in defensive aspects of this game.
ps i wouldn't call bayo recovery brain dead its crazy good but its still common to see bayos (even high level) recovery incorrectly or commit suicide. the idea that bayo is easy in general needs to stop.

 

[Trunks159]

panic in disadvantage state was displayed in full in the mk leo sets.
i dont remember leo even being much in disadvantage so its hard to evalutate him. zero has lost multiuple sets (prince ramen and mk leo) for being predictable and trying to do the easy option instead of the correct option.
it really is a shame that we as a community haven't pushed more skil in di and sdi and disadvantage in general. smash is the only fighting gae were you need to actively be playing defense while you are being hit yet a large portion of this community ignores that aspect of the game.
we are past the stage of learning characters and adjusting to nerfs its time to see real improvements in defensive aspects of this game.
ps i wouldn't call bayo recovery brain dead its crazy good but its still common to see bayos (even high level) recovery incorrectly or commit suicide. the idea that bayo is easy in general needs to stop.

I don't really think its a shame. As Emblem Lord said, the game doesn't force you to completely advance your disadvantage state options. Every now and then we have that character most people know how to di/react ('s uair, 's hoo hah, 's boost kick, 's air dodge reads), but it only really happens when a light is shone over the issue. Natural selection kinda process.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Does anyone below D tier even have a solid, fully functioning disadvantage? Other than Pit and Wario, they're all lacking landing options, combo breakers, burst mobility, recovery, or any combination of those. Like yeah, they're better than Melee disadvantage in general, but I feel like people over exaggerate how good disadvantage is in this game

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I've heard some commentators commend Japan players for their DI and SDI in the disadvantage state along with consistent techs for stage spikes and meteor smash moves.

For example practicing defense vs character specific juggles, common strings, combos, kill setups, air dodge reads, and unexpected moves or options that can win matches or take stocks.

Could other players start adapting this or find a friend who can help them practice their disadvantage state vs their bad matchups or rather the whole roster?
Sure it sounds like a huge task but it may help some players avoid losing to a "random" player that uses a not popular or "low tier" character and avoiding johns or commentators defaulting to "so and so did not know said matchup or their region is lacking mains in said character".

I hope I did not stray too far from the topic going by what FeelMeUp posted or I might be reiterating what that user said.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Didn't want want to commit to that, though, because there are a lot of Japanese player's disadvantages I haven't looked at yet.

Earth is the only one I can think of that can rival Zero's disadvantaged state.

 

[Vyrnx]

Does anyone below D tier even have a solid, fully functioning disadvantage? Other than Pit and Wario, they're all lacking landing options, combo breakers, burst mobility, recovery, or any combination of those. Like yeah, they're better than Melee disadvantage in general, but I feel like people over exaggerate how good disadvantage is in this game

Wii Fit Trainer. Great landing options, good recovery, decent ledge game.

 

[Rizen]

Everyone likes matchup charts! I'll post my updated chart, not much changes from last time pic.twitter.com/VYC16lOpSO

— Liquid | Dabuz (@DabuzSenpai) December 20, 2016

Dabuz seems to think Peach is a lean-losing matchup now.

Just pointing out in this and many other MU charts people drop, is even or -1. So while Link doesn't have anything that makes MUs great he has a lot of things that keep MUs from being terrible, even vs most top tiers. You can't write him off with good players behind him (although this is true of most characters #SSB4balance).

 

[SaltyKracka]

ps i wouldn't call bayo recovery brain dead its crazy good but its still common to see bayos (even high level) recovery incorrectly or commit suicide. the idea that bayo is easy in general needs to stop.

Let's not beat around the bush here.

With her hitboxes, distance, and lack of endlag or special fall on her recovery moves, it's braindead. "But bayos SD!" is not a defense. Goddamn Shieks SD. There is no recovery so braindead that you will not find even top level players who will not screw them up horribly every once in a while.

And playing Bayo and winning is certainly easy mode. Would you consider it easier to play Duck Hunt? Bowser Jr? Charizard? Face it, top tiers are easy mode by definition.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Let's not beat around the bush here.

With her hitboxes, distance, and lack of endlag or special fall on her recovery moves, it's braindead. "But bayos SD!" is not a defense. Goddamn Shieks SD. There is no recovery so braindead that you will not find even top level players who will not screw them up horribly every once in a while.

And playing Bayo and winning is certainly easy mode. Would you consider it easier to play Duck Hunt? Bowser Jr? Charizard? Face it, top tiers are easy mode by definition.

If you can look me in the eye and say are easier than ....the name definitely checks out.
Most bad characters aren't harder to use because they require more "skill" or "finesse."
They're "harder" to use because they have no options and ****ing suck compared to the ones at the top.

 

[soniczx123]

Let's not beat around the bush here.

With her hitboxes, distance, and lack of endlag or special fall on her recovery moves, it's braindead. "But bayos SD!" is not a defense. Goddamn Shieks SD. There is no recovery so braindead that you will not find even top level players who will not screw them up horribly every once in a while.

And playing Bayo and winning is certainly easy mode. Would you consider it easier to play Duck Hunt? Bowser Jr? Charizard? Face it, top tiers are easy mode by definition.

You always sound negative when top tiers is the topic of discussion... :/
Hard to take you seriously when are your statement blows everything out of proportion.

 

[Aaron1997]

TheGoodGuava
Hydrant mix-ups when above someone/Punish people for overextending. Just don't get predictable with it. However, it does lose to large disjointed hitbox's (any swordy not )
Frame 4 N-air gets you out ofup-tilt, Throw combos etc. And GTFO Frame 1 unblockable trampoline.
Has a ton of options at the ledge
Great Recovery, Super armor on Side-B. Yes it came be exploited but as long you don't waste your Jump when you shouldn't you should be fine.

I'd Say Pac's Disadvantage is top 20 in the game

 

[Rizen]

If you can look me in the eye and say are easier than ....the name definitely checks out.
Most bad characters aren't harder to use because they require more "skill" or "finesse."
They're "harder" to use because they have no options and ****ing suck compared to the ones at the top.

To be fair Saltykracka was talking about Bayo's recovery, which is pretty brain-dead. I agree how good a character is =/= how easy they are to play.

 

[SaltyKracka]

If you can look me in the eye and say are easier than ....the name definitely checks out.
Most bad characters aren't harder to use because they require more "skill" or "finesse."
They're "harder" to use because they have no options and ****ing suck compared to the ones at the top.

I can look you in the eye and say that of the top and high tiers, the only one that requires substantially greater amounts of skill to make work than the characters around or below them is.

 

[chaos11011]

Does anyone below D tier even have a solid, fully functioning disadvantage? Other than Pit and Wario, they're all lacking landing options, combo breakers, burst mobility, recovery, or any combination of those. Like yeah, they're better than Melee disadvantage in general, but I feel like people over exaggerate how good disadvantage is in this game

Duck Hunt has a frame 1 Can. If you're not against sword disjoints and frame perfect combos, his disadvantage pretty rubbish, boasting only NAir, which is relatively quick. The character can break out of Mario UTilt, Fox UTilt and Uair, but not things like non-Dancing Blade Marth, Cloud, and Bayo combos

 

[Deleted member]

If you can look me in the eye and say are easier than ....the name definitely checks out.
Most bad characters aren't harder to use because they require more "skill" or "finesse."
They're "harder" to use because they have no options and ****ing suck compared to the ones at the top.

I was told they're some of the easiest compared to the top tiers. Reading the opponents is easier than pulling off hard combo strings, IMO (this is coming from a guy who ****ing sucks with and , but not for some reason.)

Seriously, it's not Impossible for or to defeat or , if that's what you're implying.

 

[The-Technique]

I can look you in the eye and say that of the top and high tiers, the only one that requires substantially greater amounts of skill to make work than the characters around or below them is.

Lmfao, I'm a mid tier hero with 10 different pockets and I can tell you the likes of Sheik, Diddy, and ZSS are WAY harder to optimize compared the majority of low and mid tiers.

To say that top tiers are easy is an utterly ludicrous statement to make.​

 

[Deleted member]

I gave a full year my absolute best and have no regrets. I plan to stop practicing Palu outside of specific MUs and focus elsewhere.

— TLTC (@ImTLTC) December 20, 2016

TLTC has dropped . Looks like Prince Ramen is the only notable Palutena left in the U.S.