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Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

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L9999

Smash Champion
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the attic I call Magicant
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Ghat damn, it's like miscommunication city up in here.

You are correct in that they are strong players playing a strong character. But that is not the same as being top players. Void is a top player. Zero is a top player. Larry is a top player. Ally is a top player. Nairo is a top player. Anti is a top player. Dabuz is a top player. MKLeo just proved himself to be far and away a top player while he was playing a strong character.

And yeah, they're great players. But until one of them breaks through that ceiling of top players and makes his name as more than just a top Bayonetta player, you're probably not going to see Bayonetta take a major.
Salem has defeated every single one in your list of top players except ANTi, VoID, and Dabuz. He also defeated Kameme, Marss and Abadango, who are also top players. Salem was the one who brought the hype train for Bayonetta in the first place. Captain Zack destroyed Dabuz and also defeated Larry. Saj has defeated ANTi and Nairo. They have defeated top players and they likely mop the floor with the average top level Smash 4 player. Their placings are not stellar top but they are good. *Really risking it here* If your profile is anything to go by, you play Ganondorf, and we all know how he does against Bayonetta. I can understand you don't like her, but dissing her players and saying Bayo is braindead and toxic isn't going to solve a damn thing.

You know the argument that was brought up earlier reminds me of a youtube video discussing fight game community toxicity and the types of toxic players in that environment, two in particular.
The first believes that tiers are god and that matchups are more or less predetermined by the characters tier placement either discounting or ignoring player responsibility altogether.
The second is the polar opposite and probably where cries of 'try hard' are coming from in FG mode. The second believes that any MU regardless of how lopsided it is can easily be overcome by player effort.
Now i'm not going to say anyone here expressed any sentiments to the two types above but some of the comments skirt uncomfortably close.
MU knowledge and skill take priority over tier placing. Take for example Aba's MK against Dabuz after Pound 2016. MK eats Rosa alive, but because Aba doesn't play MK properly, Dabuz defeated him.
 
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G. Stache

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 21, 2015
Messages
283
Location
New England
About the top tiers being easier than lower tiered debate, I guess this is how I see things. Now obviously, you look at top tiers and the difference they have compared to lower tiered characters is options. In any given situation, the higher tiered character will usually have more options than a lower tiered character in the majority of situations. A lot of the time, these options that the higher tiered characters have are stronger too.

This should be a given to most people in the thread, but I just wanted to clear this up just in case the newer people didn't quite understand.

A good example would be comparing the neutrals of Mario and Luigi. In most situations, Mario has more options and stronger options. He has more flexibility with his sh aerials, good mobility to keep up with characters trying to zone him out/zone unwanted nuisances out, FLUDD to control space and to disrupt, fantastic OoS options like up b, cape to deal with projectiles, smash attacks for reads/baits, fireball for a projectile of his own (even if it is a mediocre one), and of course his tilts, grab and jab for close ranged fighting. Now, although it can be hard in some match ups, Mario has the ability to handle any character with some success because his tools in neutral are versatile enough to allow him to be flexible in his approach to get him into an advantaged state (which would be getting close to the opponent and preferably snagging a grab at most percents). He essentially has at least some sort of tool to help him alleviate any type of play style. Compare that to his brother, Luigi, and we see all the things that keep Luigi out of a higher power level. Luigi lacks a neutral as rounded out as Mario's. Instead, it's polarizing to the point where Luigi can have very hard times with certain characters (Mewtwo and campy Sheiks being the most notable). And if you look at Luigi's kit, you see why right away. First off, Luigi lacks the aerial mobility of his brother. His airspeed is notoriously bad to the point where his "danger zone" (basically the range of where the aerials will hit and force or force some reaction) with his kit of aerials is a lot more mitigated than Mario's even though Luigi's hitboxes themselves generally outrange Mario's. This lack of aerial mobility limits Luigi's aerials to shorter ranged pokes (which are generally less safe than Mario's aerials anyways due to Mario's ability to weave out of the opponents range or cross up shields) and fail to be as great of an approaching tool than Mario's, who's sh aerials are a great way to approach and condition opponents. Besides mobility, Luigi also lacks a reflector. So his fireballs, while fantastic and are vastly superior to Mario's own fireballs, must serve as his only mid range pressuring tool and as relief to incoming projectiles at the same time (in conjunction with shielding). When paired with poor mobility, Luigi becomes even more prone to being zoned out. This is partly the reason you'll see his down b pulled out in neutral. While very punishable if not used correctly, Luigi is able to close the distance and hit and opponent with a burst option if used at the right time. The last thing that should be brought up is Luigi's OoS compared to Mario. Simply put, obviously Mario's is a lot better at directly punishing shield pressure. A frame 3 invincible up b is hard to top by anyone. Luigi has a hard time directly punishing OoS in general if he doesn't perfect shield the hit. Even then, he doesn't have any frame 3 option at his disposal. Instead, he would either grab, jump cancel into an up smash or drop his shield to jab. If Luigi fails a perfect shield, it's usually much safer to just retreat and reset to neutral. This, again, leads to Luigi getting camped out. Because all he can do a lot of the time if he shields a hit without a perfect shield is reset to neutral...where he continues to get walled out. Now, it should be noted that while Mario overall is the stronger character in neutral, Luigi has the stronger presence in close range combat. SH aerials are finally within the "danger zone" I briefly mentioned earlier, Luigi's jab becomes a god tier move, you're within Luigi's accursed grab range, and now you have to fear Luigi's high damage output and kill power. But I guess what I'm trying to say is that Mario's other abilities in the neutral outweigh Luigi's pros in close range by a fair margin.

Now, after that needlessly long essay on the comparison of the Mario Bros. you'd probably expect me to say that Mario is easier to play because of his extended options compared to Luigi's more limited ones. Now, this is partly biased because I know a lot more about Luigi than any other character on the roster. But I'd call Luigi much easier to learn. The problem in calling top tiers easier because of their extended options negates the fact that you need to learn when, where and how to use those options. The fact that Mario has more options than Luigi in the neutral means that, to get to Mario's max potential in the neutral you need to study and know what his tools are and how to incorporate and link them into the grand scheme of his neutral of "how am I going to use this valuable asset to bring myself into the advantage state". Luigi requires less of that thinking because his tools are less in number and the versatility on some of his moves are very limited in a few cases (thinking of down b in particular). This general course of reasoning is why I imagine Sheik mains find it hard to be consistent. They have to stay aware of all their tools during a set, or they risk being punished hard in a combo because of Sheik's lighter weight and fast fall speed. Bowser in particular gets a special mention in this regard because as soon as Sheik misuses a tool or forgets to use one, Bowser takes about a 3rd of a stock until he's able to kill you with up throw to up air (I really don't know what the combo name is called nowadays, but I'm a fan of calling it the "Showtime").

One more thing: I'm not trying to say that Top tiers are the hardest characters in the world to pick up. In fact, some of them can be easily picked up as a pocket or secondary, like Cloud for example. But calling all of them easy mode is misleading in my opinion. They're definitely not Shulk levels of hard (God bless the brave souls who dedicate their time into that character), but they're certainly harder than a great bit of the roster just because of the depth of a lot of the characters. Regardless, I don't know if this hit the nail on the head, or if I'm completely off. This is just how I view things. I'd prefer to be corrected in places I was wrong in.
 
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Nathan Richardson

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
796
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Warren MI.
NNID
Zeratrix
MU knowledge and skill take priority over tier placing. Take for example Aba's MK against Dabuz after Pound 2016. MK eats Rosa alive, but because Aba doesn't play MK properly, Dabuz defeated him.
Like I said earlier nobody was specifically saying anything like that.
 
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Luigi player

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 29, 2004
Messages
4,106
Location
Austria
But how does DK get off of the ledge against Marth of all characters?

As soon as Marth gains substantial stage control in the MU, it seems that DK falls apart hard.
Well, while DK gets trapped hard on the ledge against some characters and always has a difficult time it is not impossible to get back to the stage at some point, even if that point is after taking 80 % or something. You can react somewhat to the ledge options, but can you do it over and over and over and over again? There could easily be a point where DK will make it back onstage and then it's okay again. DKs good grabrange helps a lot against Marth too so it's actually possible to get grabs on him. Utilt and bair are obviously great too. DKs bair is one of few moves who can actually contest Marths fair walls, since it doesn't have much endlag and good range. Also it's probably not too free to get DK to the ledge all the time. Ding dong can be super annoying for Marth (of course it is for everyone, but it seemed to me like either Marth has an easier window for it because he's somewhat tall, or it's just easy to grab him...).

The matchup is only even in the neutral which is great and all but if Marth wins neutral once he should be taking a stock. DK has no landing options against a disjoint as good as Marth's, if he gets stuck at the ledge hes going to stay there until either the Marth messes up or DK dies, and if he ever has to recover hes going to end up losing the stock to counter spam.
The matchup might be even in neutral, I think DK has a little edge just because of how threatening his grabcombos and especially ding dong is. Marth gets a hit in once and DK always loses a stock? Are we now playing perfect superhuman or robotic bros [and only for Marth]? No one can predict everything 100 % of the time. DK might eat a lot sometimes (but shouldn't usually just from losing in neutral once, lol), but that won't instantly be a stock off.

Can you perfectly react to any of DKs options 100 % of the time? DK has few options and most are bad and some are easily reactable, but no one will get it right every time. People seem to exaggerate this. Yeah you might get the hit in 5 times or so, but then one time he could get off. If its a jump or a mistiming on a neutral getup or a slow reaction... things like these happen. Did you see Void vs Larry from the weekend? Yeah Larry couldn't get back on and got hit to the ledge over and over again. But then he did manage to get hit into the stage or Void missed not sure anymore... either way he had another chance and the match was practically back to even and one grab could've sealed it. I also think it's the worst on FD since on other stages you get more options to land on with platforms.

Also, DK can stall a bit with upB unless he doesn't have a doublejump and is hit really far away. Counter can be easy to hit in this case, but it is not free and doesn't work all the time if the DK is careful.
 
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D

Deleted member

Guest
DK has few options and most are bad and some are easily reactable, but no one will get it right every time. People seem to exaggerate this. Yeah you might get the hit in 5 times or so, but then one time he could get off. If its a jump or a mistiming on a neutral getup or a slow reaction... things like these happen.
This so much. Lots of people (especially the competitive community) exaggerate DK's negatives, ignore his positives, and act like he's a low/bottom tier. I'm guessing either they lost with the character so much and dropped him or they take his results way too seriously, but really, it's not like all of his MUs are hugely against him. A useless abomination of a character? Go see Zelda.

Sorry for the rant, I had to get this off my chest.
 
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Luigi player

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
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Austria
This so much. Lots of people (especially the competitive community) exaggerate DK's negatives, ignore his positives, and act like he's a low/bottom tier. I'm guessing either they lost with the character so much and dropped him or they take his results way too seriously, but really, it's not like all of his MUs are hugely against him. A useless abomination of a character? Go see Zelda.

Sorry for the rant, I had to get this off my chest.
Well, DK does have big flaws that not even the ding dong solves, and it's true that he has a terrible disadvantage... but it's not as terrible as a few might think.

Just tried to keep a cpu DK at the ledge (with Marth obviously). It's impossible for me to react to his jump option. I have to predict it to hit him. Of course DK would still have to land somewhere, but few options are there, he'll still have his doublejump and possibly platforms (he could turn around with neutral B and cancel it to contest with bairs), and if worst comes to worst there's also footstooling the opponent if he's waiting for DK to land on the ground. Either way DK will have options to get back.
And btw, if you're going to predict and attack for the jump option you'll be too slow to punish a roll getup.
 
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~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
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It surpsises me to see how many people believe that Sonic has the advantage over Marth. Sonic played in the US playstyle with heavy reliance on Spin Dash actually has an immensely hard time against Marth who can not only cover Spin Dash quite well but also give chase to Sonic's upB escape attempts better than most other characters. Sonic can also not rely on spaced back airs because Marth can challenge those head on and win. Every non-japanese Sonic would get crushed by Leo, I can promise you that much.

As far as japanese Sonic players are concerned it's hard to say. KEN could possibly beat him but he'd have to play the way he did at Umebura SAT and that's quite an unlikely constellation to happen.

:059:
 

Jamurai

Victory is my destiny
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UK
NNID
Jamurai92
@Baby_Sneak

MK is top 15 because
  • Good matchup spread - beats a lot of characters including a few relevant ones, only has 1 or 2 truly hard matchups
  • Great advantage state and combos - great damage racking, lots of mixups, couple of kill confirms, good edgeguarding, great juggling
  • General neutral gameplan is relatively linear, but extremely effective
  • Escapes some states of disadvantage with ease e.g. crossups on shield, recovering, being juggled
  • He has the results to back it all up
 

soniczx123

Smash Journeyman
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It surpsises me to see how many people believe that Sonic has the advantage over Marth. Sonic played in the US playstyle with heavy reliance on Spin Dash actually has an immensely hard time against Marth who can not only cover Spin Dash quite well but also give chase to Sonic's upB escape attempts better than most other characters. Sonic can also not rely on spaced back airs because Marth can challenge those head on and win. Every non-japanese Sonic would get crushed by Leo, I can promise you that much.

As far as japanese Sonic players are concerned it's hard to say. KEN could possibly beat him but he'd have to play the way he did at Umebura SAT and that's quite an unlikely constellation to happen.

:059:
How exactly? Me and my friend tried experimenting with chasing Sonic after he springed and Marth couldn't make it. Also, Marth has a hard time punishing SD on shield if Sonic doesn't commit to an aerial afterwards.
 

Das Koopa

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Update on Top 100; After sifting through several hundred tournaments, I now have the average placement for every contender. Based on this, I'll make grades, and grades are used to determine point values, so these aren't the actual top 100 rankings, just the base. The scoring process will be done within the next couple of days and hopefully the Top 100 will begin release on Christmas:

Average placement list:
MKLeo: 3.51 :4marth::4cloud2:, :4metaknight:
ZeRo: 3.66 :4diddy:, :4cloud2::4sheik:
Dabuz: 4.86 :rosalina:, :4olimar:
VoiD: 5.45 :4sheik:, :4fox:
Mr. R: 5.4625 :4sheik:, :4cloud2::4bayonetta:
Larry Lurr: 5.49 :4fox:, :4dk:
Abadango: 6.575 :4mewtwo:, :4metaknight::4megaman:
Nairo: 6.8375 :4zss:, :4bowser::4lucina:
Ally: 7 :4mario:
Komorikiri: 7.08 :4cloud2::4sonic:
KEN: 7.185 :4sonic:, :4pikachu:
Glutonny: 7.1875 :4wario:
ANTi: 8.18 :4mario:, :4cloud2::4zss::4metaknight:
Tweek: 8.425 :4cloud2:, :4bowserjr:
Marss: 8.55 :4zss:, :4lucario:
Kameme: 8.75 :4megaman:, :4sheik::4yoshi::4wario:
Ranai: 9 :4villager:
Salem: 9.14 :4bayonetta:
Ito: 9.93 :4metaknight:
Shuton: 10.35 :4olimar:
Cosmos: 10.6 :4corrinf:
ESAM: 10.62 :4pikachu:, :4mewtwo:
Mew2King: 10.82 :4cloud2:
Zinoto: 11.97 :4diddy:
LoNg0uw: 12.52 :4rob:, :4cloud2:
Tyrant: 12.56 :4metaknight:, :4diddy:
Earth: 13.0575 :4pit:, :4fox::4corrinf:
Elexiao: 13.1375 :4greninja:, :4pacman:
Taiheita: 13.7 :4lucas:
Holy: 13.8125 :4rob:
Rayquaza07: 13.86 :rosalina:
Dyr: 14.0875 :4diddy:
iStudying: 14.2625 :4greninja:
Falln: 14.625 :rosalina:
Rich Brown: 14.725 :4mewtwo:
SuperGirlKels: 14.915 :4sonic:, :4kirby:
FOW: 14.95 :4ness:


Pink Fresh: 15.5
Dath: 15.875 :4robinf:
Badr: 15.975 :4bayonetta:
S1-14: 15.975 :4ness:
Nietono: 16.42 :4diddy:, :4sheik:
IxisNaugus: 16.55 :4sonic:
WaDi: 16.6 :4mewtwo:
Wrath: 16.87500 :4sonic:
Static Manny: 17 :4sonic:, :4feroy:
Fatality: 17.75 :4falcon:, :4mario:
Dark Wizzy: 18 :4mario:
Sodrek: 18.3625 :4fox:, :4cloud2:
San: 18.46 :4myfriends:
TheReflexWonder: 18.5 :4wario:
ImHip: 18.685 :4olimar::4duckhunt:
J. Miller: 18.81 :4luigi:
Captain Zack: 18.99 :4bayonetta:, :4peach:
NAKAT: 19.11 :4fox:, :4ness::4pikachu:
Seagull Joe: 19.48 :4sonic:
Samsora: 19.735 :4peach:, :4bayonetta:
6WX: 19.875 :4sonic:
Regi Shikimi: 19.92 :4gaw:, :4corrinf:
ScAtt: 19.95 :4megaman:
K.I.D. Goggles: 20 :4sonic:, :4kirby:
Pugwest: 20.1125 :4marth:
Ri-ma: 20.1175 :4tlink:
Locus: 20.3875 :4ryu:
MVD: 20.41 :4diddy:
K9sbruce: 20.655 :4diddy:, :4sheik:
Jandrew: 20.725 :4metaknight:
Some: 20.725 :4greninja:
Vinnie: 20.99 :4sheik:
Zan: 21.1125 :4tlink:, :4metaknight:
Mr. E: 21.15 :4marth:
Ryuga: 21.18 :4corrinf:
Zenyou: 21.31 :4mario:
False: 21.315 :4marth::4sheik:
Ned: 21.85 :4cloud2:
Josh/WormyNugget: 21.87 :4diddy:
Raptor: 21.9 :4yoshi:
Ikep: 21.97 :4bayonetta:
Shogun: 22.075 :4fox:
DKWill: 22.375 :4dk:
Blacktwins: 22.4575 :4mario::4cloud2:
HIKARU: 22.6575 :4dk:
8BitMan: 22.71 :4rob:
IcyMist: 22.75 :4samus:
Day: 22.76 :4lucario:
Elegant: 22.7825 :4luigi:
Tyroy: 22.795 :4bayonetta:, :4sheik::4metaknight:
SS: 22.9375 :4villager::4ness:
Venom: 23.9175 :4ryu:, :4miibrawl:
3xA: 24.3875 :4tlink:
Sonido: 24.42 :4sonic:
Choco: 24.82 :4zss:

TLTC: 25.0125 :4palutena:
Ryo: 25.72 :4corrinf:, :4myfriends::4feroy:
Ksev: 25.59 :4fox:
JJROCKETS: 26.06 :4diddy:
Frozen: 26.125 :4corrinf:
Saj: 26.15 :4bayonetta:
James: 26.75 :4luigi:, :4cloud2:
Charliedaking: 26.7625 :4fox:
SlayerZ: 26.975 :4peach:
LingLing: 27.575 :4peach:
Xzax: 27.935 :4fox:
Xaltis: 28 :rosalina:
Aarvark: 28.08 :4villager:
Craftis: 28.125 :4sonic:
Stroder: 28.205 :4greninja:, :4cloud2:
Papa Wall: 28.67 :4yoshi:
T: 28.72 :4link:
Umeki: 28.7275 :4peach:
DJ Jack: 28.7775 :4ryu:
Phoenix: 28.9775 :4sonic:
Dekillsage: 29 :4fox:
Tsu-: 29.2125 :4lucario:
Angel Cortes: 29.25 :4diddy:
MJG: 29.275 :4villager:
Kie: 29.775 :4peach:
Ateleir: 30.23 :rosalina:
Cyve: 30.725 :4bayonetta:, :4diddy:
Nicko: 30.7875 :4shulk:, :4cloud2:
FILIP: 30.99 :4mario::4cloud2:
Kuro: 31.1375 :4pit:
DarkAura: 31.2875 :4greninja:
Raffi-X: 31.875 :4rob:
NiTE: 31.97 :rosalina:
Sigma: 32.125 :4tlink:
Dan: 32.22 :4mario:
Myran: 32.25 :4olimar:
Tearbear: 32.31 :4falcon:
LOE1: 32.66 :4luigi:, :4wario:
JK: 33.2775 :4bayonetta:
Trevonte: 33.5625 :4sheik:
Karna: 33.91 :4sheik:
Nick Riddle: 34.37 :4zss:, :4bowser:
RAIN: 34.815 :4cloud2:, :4diddy::4sheik:

C3PO: 35.21 :4diddy:
Sinji: 36 :4pacman:
Gomamugitya: 36.1 :4lucario:
Sol: 36.38 :4littlemac:
Pichi: 36.93 :4falcon:
AC: 37.3125 :4falco:, :4marth::4metaknight:
Mister Eric: 37.325 :4rob:
Z: 37.9925 :4pikachu:
True Blue: 38.57 :4sonic:
Puppeh: 38.5825 :4sheik:
RiotLettuce: 38.87 :4bayonetta:
Angbad: 39.6475 :4olimar:
Remzi: 40.0375 :4zss:
JTails: 40.3 :4diddy:
Mr. ConCon: 42.0625 :4luigi:
9B: 42.43 :4bayonetta:
Prince Ramen: 44.05 :4palutena:
Alphicans: 44.3525 :4littlemac:, :4fox:
Fuwa: 45.82 :4marth:
Raito: 46.56 :4duckhunt:
CaptAwesum: 47.3 :4villager:
RoguePenguin: 47.5 :4mario:
Smasher1001: 49.085 :4mario::4megaman:
Saiki: 50.3925 :4sheik:
ViceGrip: 51.0175 :4bowserjr:
DarkShad: 51.6575 :4ryu:
Ven: 52.01 :4zelda:
Oisiitofu: 52.32 :4greninja:
Logic: 53.6 :4olimar:
Seibrik: 53.7925 :4cloud2:, :4metaknight:
Aphro: 54.56 :4bayonetta:
Brood: 56.5 :4duckhunt:
Boss: 63.26 :4luigi:
Trela: 70 :4ryu:
Hayato.: 71.13 :4tlink:
SOVA Unknown: 73.3 :4link:
John Numbers: 75 :4wiifit:
Purple Guy: 81.5 :4zelda:
Raziek: 106.83 :4cloud2:
Scizor: 218.22 :4link:


Players that failed to meet minimum tournament qualifications but retain major ongoing/singular accomplishments:

Venia :4greninja:
SH :4fox:
Kirihara :rosalina:
Ron :4mario::4luigi:
Megafox :4fox:
Master Raven :4sheik:
LordMix :4bowser:
Darkwolf :4shulk:
Javi :4cloud2::4sheik::4ness:
Serge :4lucario::4charizard:(:4greninja::4feroy::4cloud2:)
Wonf :4bayonetta::4sonic:
You3 :4duckhunt:

Not enough data:

XL-97 :4cloud2:
Klein :4ryu:
Ghost :4bayonetta::4cloud2:
Extra :4gaw::4wario:
Waveguider :4greninja::4wiifit:
Luco :4lucas::4ness:
Jezmo :4diddy:
Jaice :4bayonetta::rosalina::4olimar:
 
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Fenny

Smash Ace
Joined
May 29, 2016
Messages
584
No, I'm asking what his vague, jumbled reference to an incorrect stigma refers to (besides, grammatically, that there is a correct stigma).

But now that you mention it...I believe that while the gentlemen in question have proven themselves top Bayo players, they have yet to prove themselves top players.
LMAO where should I even start with this?

Salem. Since you seem to be ignoring the Christmas hit list of names he's ticked off in the past season and a half, let's focus on the fact that Salem's considered by virtually every notable top player to be one of the best Smash 4 players in the world, so whether you accept him as one or not is kinda irrelevant. He plays Shiek and Lucina but he chooses to use Bayo because she's his Brawl ZSS, he enjoys her so he plays her. Simple as.

The idea that you think that people are carried at the top level shows how little you actually know about the kind of hard work players put in at that level. They work to adapt and improve, and eventually these For Glory mega combos take far more precision and pre-emptive decision making to pull off. Bayo without her punish game isn't top tier to begin with. Work has to be put in to capitalise on openings with her since her neutral doesnt allow it, while work has to be put in to counterplay her and minimise her reward. You think she can just be picked up and played at the top level? Really?

Take Mr R for instance. Can you name me a single set he's taken off a top player with his Bayo as of late? Even one? No? Weird, would have thought someone of Ramin's calibre would have been sweeping people left and right if Bayo carried him even higher than the point he's already at.

How about Komorikiri? He whipped out Bayo at ZeRo Saga, Bayo and that Witch Carrying tech must have done the job right? N-No?

W E L P.

As you can see, your argument holds no water. Great players decided to change to great characters that compliment their playstyles and heighten the ceiling that their previous character limited them to, thus allowing them to get the reward deserved for their skill. Just like how Tweek changed to Cloud because Bowser Jr wasn't good enough, and just like how Aba changed from Pac Man to Mewtwo after the buffs. The character doesn't make the player, especially at top level.

THE PLAYER MAKES THE PLAYER. IF THE PLAYER ISN'T UP TO SNUFF, THEN THEY'LL BE DESTINED TO FALL BEHIND, NO MATTER WHO THEY USE.

How long is it gonna take until people understand this simple concept?
 
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wedl!!

Goddess of Storms
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Jan 2, 2014
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Soul Realm
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Plushies4Ever
You mean, that they pick her up expecting easy wins off of jank because they can't get them with other characters? That she was designed and released broken as all hell and even two consecutive major nerfs only managed to make her top tier?
ever considered that Bayo mains, you know, like her as a character

people who pick her up for "free wins" are ****ing dumb lol. she is not a good pocket.
 
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TriTails

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 29, 2014
Messages
1,720
Location
Looking at your face
I actually see Mario's and Luigi's neutrals to be similiar actually.
- Both have (generally) safe SH aerial pressure. They can usually do double aerials out of one shorthop, so that means rolling in won't work if they predict it. Mario's B-air in particular is kind of obnoxious since Mario can retreat it while still doing two of them. Luigi's are less safe, but SH F-air DOES have its followups in case things go awry (N-air if they move in on PS, fast-fall into jab or grab if they don't).

- Forget Cape. Nobody shoots a full-charge Charge Shots or Shadow Balls at anywhere except close range anymore (In which it becomes unreactable under most normal circumstances). Needles and bananas are too quick to be reflected, you can't cape Bullet Climax or safe sword pressure, etc, etc. The actual best answer to those kind of camping/zoning is powershielding, in which case Luigi's traction only adds one more incentive to learn it. This is probably why Ally doesn't ever Cape in neutral. It doesn't do squat.

- Due to the range disadvantages they both share for majority of their MUs, it's better to do a 'bait-and-punish' kind of play rather than aggresive ones (Read: Looking for commitments, optimizing combos, etc). Can't get in with that Marth or Cloud doing a thousand shorthops with their aerial coverage, might as well wait for them to overextend or an opening and punish.

- OoS MIGHT had been more important back then, where everyone are still getting the hang of safe aerial pressure and noncommital neutrals. Now? Nah buddy, can't SJP those swords and F-airs. Any less safer than that and you'd probably be able to grab them by then. Plus unlike Samus(es) or Marth you get no real reward from landing it anyway. It doesn't kill, it doesn't do notable damage, it doesn't even send the enemies offstage.

Not saying both brothers are even in neutral. Mario's still better by a fair margin. It's just that the 'extra' tools Mario has doesn't quite help against top level of play, where projectiles are thrown with a brain behind them and where neutral safety is literally the highest and biggest key of winning. The only 'extra' tools he has are... dash attack and FLUDD. The latter's impact can be strong when used properly, which adds to Mario's advantage in neutral. But aside form that, the brothers play neutral mostly the same way at top level of play, because to be honest, their goals are almost the exact same in neutral.

The only real differences between their neutrals are probably just FLUDD... and Fireball. Mario can blow shorthops away for a potential ledge mix-ups, which is beneficial due to his advantage and U-smash. Luigi's Fireballs' ignorance of gravity gives him another tool to contest aerials and landings, which can be rather annoying since he can dash in to grab you if you are hit close to the ground. Other than that though? I think both play neutral the same way.

Or that may just be me dual-maining them and I just happen to transfer what I know from playing Luigi for two years to Mario, and the fact Mario's tools are yet to be optimized. This is how I percieve things anyway. Feel free to rain me down with corrections. I love getting those.
 
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NegaNixx

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 9, 2015
Messages
223
Location
Toronto
Put this together this morning and I have to say... The Kid's Pretty good.

MKLeo

180~W-70~L
SF5 Winner
Canada Cup Winner
2GGT: ZeRo Saga Winner

GOML:
3-0 False
3-1 Nairo
1-3 Ally
2-3 ZeRo

SF5:
3-0 Waymas
2-3 Wonf
3-0 Regi
3-0 Bedgar
3-0 Wonf
3-2 Dabuz
3-0 Mr. R
3-2 Mr. R

E-Sports Showcase
3-1 Sodrek
0-3 Ally
3-0 Wabz
3-0 J Miller
1-3 Larry Lurr

Canada Cup
3-0 M2K
2-3 Ally
3-2 M2K
3-2 Ally
3-2 Ally

KTAR XIX
3-2 Nairo
3-0 Samsora
2-3 ZeRo
1-3 Salem

UGC Open
3-0 JJRockets
2-3 Marss
3-0 Nakat
1-3 Darkshad

Showdown
3-0 BlackTwins
3-0 Seth
3-0 Marss
3-0 Mr. R
3-1 Mr. R

ZeRo Saga
3-1 6WX
3-0 Komorikiri
2-3 VoiD
3-1 Dabuz
3-0 AnTi
3-1 Ally
3-0 ZeRo
3-0 VoiD
3-1 Larry Lurr
3-2 Larry Lurr

Other tournaments...
3-0 Mr. R
3-2 Mr. R
3-0 Wonf
3-1 Wonf
3-0 Wonf
3-1 Wonf
3-0 Dekillsage
3-0 Frozen
3-0 Tweek
3-2 Tweek
3-0 6WX
3-1 John Numbers
3-1 Mr. R
2-3 Mr. R
3-1 Mr. R
3-0 Mr. R
3-0 Mr. R
2-3 Ally
3-0 Ally
3-1 Ally

Bo3s
2-0 Ally
2-0 Tyroy

Not enough data
L by Zinoto
W over Mr. R
W over Dyr
W over Zinoto
W over Marss
W over Marss

Has losses to ZeRo (Set Count 1-2), Ally (6-4), Mr. R (10-1), Wonf (5-1), Zinoto (1-1), Darkshad (0-1), Marss (3-1), VoiD (1-1), Salem (0-1), Larry Lurr (2-1)

Fixed.
 
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|RK|

Smash Marketer
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Messages
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Put this together this morning and I have to say... The Kid's Pretty good.

MKLeo

180~W-70~L
SF5 Winner
Canada Cup Winner
2GGT: ZeRo Saga Winner

GOML:
3-0 False
3-1 Nairo
1-3 Ally
2-3 ZeRo

SF5:
3-0 Waymas
2-3 Wonf
3-0 Regi
3-0 Bedgar
3-0 Wonf
3-2 Dabuz
3-0 Mr. R
3-2 Mr. R

E-Sports Showcase
3-1 Sodrek
0-3 Ally
3-0 Wabz
3-0 J Miller
1-3 Larry Lurr

Canada Cup
3-0 M2K
2-3 Ally
3-2 M2K
3-2 Ally
3-2 Ally

KTAR XIX
3-2 Nairo
3-0 Samsora
2-3 ZeRo
1-3 Salem

UGC Open
3-0 JJRockets
2-3 Marss
3-0 Nakat
1-3 Darkshad

Showdown
3-0 BlackTwins
3-0 Seth
3-0 Marss
3-0 Mr. R
3-1 Mr. R

ZeRo Saga
3-1 6WX
3-0 Komorikiri
2-3 VoiD
3-1 Dabuz
3-0 AnTi
3-1 Ally
3-0 ZeRo
3-0 VoiD
3-1 Larry Lurr
3-2 Larry Lurr

Other tournaments...
3-0 Mr. R
3-2 Mr. R
3-0 Wonf
3-1 Wonf
3-0 Wonf
3-1 Wonf
3-0 Dekillsage
3-0 Frozen
3-0 Tweek
3-2 Tweek
3-0 6WX
3-1 John Numbers
3-1 Mr. R
2-3 Mr. R
3-1 Mr. R
3-0 Mr. R
3-0 Mr. R
2-3 Ally
3-0 Ally
3-1 Ally

Bo3s
2-0 Ally
2-0 Tyroy

Not enough data
L by Zinoto
W over Mr. R
W over Dyr
W over Zinoto
W over Marss
W over Marss

Has losses to ZeRo (Set Count 1-1), Ally (6-4), Mr. R (10-1), Wonf (5-1), Zinoto (1-1), Darkshad (0-1), Marss (3-1), VoiD (1-1), Salem (0-1), Larry Lurr (2-1)
Isn't ZeRo 2-1?
 

RonNewcomb

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 29, 2014
Messages
449
Link has C4 bombs, kill confirms off of bombs, huge combos off of bombs, bombs to cover his landings, a grab kill confirm, a kill throw, zair + fair spacing, bomb + boomerang + zair zoning, and the Hylian mother****ing Shield. With players like T, SOVA, and Izaw repping him I don't know why hes still considered low tier or even mentioned in the same breath as characters like BJR, Pac, and Kirby.
Because he has a disadvantage state worse than all 3 of them put together. Combo food, jugglefood, gimpable, spikeable, long FAFs, you name it. SolidSense had an exercise 50 pages back about the smallest buff that puts a char in top tier. Link was difficult. I'd give him a frame 1 airdodge with no landing lag, and even then I'm not sure it's enough.

Abadango's Pac has done more than all the Link mains put together.
 
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verbatim

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 29, 2015
Messages
618
That was more than a year ago. It isn't relevant to current results.


That being said, Izaw's primarily a content creator, not a top player. SOVA is comparable to scizor, aka a decent mid level player. T is still up in the air, we'll see what happens when he comes to Frostbite 2017.

In 2016 Sinji, for example, has more consistent results/better wins than Izaw or SOVA.

DKWill x2
Goma
Mr. E
C3PO

To name a few that were recorded.
 
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Illuminose

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 6, 2015
Messages
671
First, in response to the discussion on Leo set counts: it is worth noting that (to my knowledge) Leo has a positive record in games against every player he has played more than once, with three overall negative set records to ZeRo/Salem/Darkshad; he's positive in games against ZeRo (7-6) so it's just the losing records to Salem and Darkshad in terms of games. That's just a statistic I wanted to put out there because he's the only person in the word who fits that insane criteria, and he has plenty of sets vs top players to the point where you can't blame lack of sample size. The kid is absurdly good at this game.
I actually see Mario's and Luigi's neutrals to be similiar actually.
- Both have (generally) safe SH aerial pressure. They can usually do double aerials out of one shorthop, so that means rolling in won't work if they predict it. Mario's B-air in particular is kind of obnoxious since Mario can retreat it while still doing two of them. Luigi's are less safe, but SH F-air DOES have its followups in case things go awry (N-air if they move in on PS, fast-fall into jab or grab if they don't).

- Forget Cape. Nobody shoots a full-charge Charge Shots or Shadow Balls at anywhere except close range anymore (In which it becomes unreactable under most normal circumstances). Needles and bananas are too quick to be reflected, you can't cape Bullet Climax or safe sword pressure, etc, etc. The actual best answer to those kind of camping/zoning is powershielding, in which case Luigi's traction only adds one more incentive to learn it. This is probably why Ally doesn't ever Cape in neutral. It doesn't do squat.

- Due to the range disadvantages they both share for majority of their MUs, it's better to do a 'bait-and-punish' kind of play rather than aggresive ones (Read: Looking for commitments, optimizing combos, etc). Can't get in with that Marth or Cloud doing a thousand shorthops with their aerial coverage, might as well wait for them to overextend or an opening and punish.

- OoS MIGHT had been more important back then, where everyone are still getting the hang of safe aerial pressure and noncommital neutrals. Now? Nah buddy, can't SJP those swords and F-airs. Any less safer than that and you'd probably be able to grab them by then. Plus unlike Samus(es) or Marth you get no real reward from landing it anyway. It doesn't kill, it doesn't do notable damage, it doesn't even send the enemies offstage.

Not saying both brothers are even in neutral. Mario's still better by a fair margin. It's just that the 'extra' tools Mario has doesn't quite help against top level of play, where projectiles are thrown with a brain behind them and where neutral safety is literally the highest and biggest key of winning. The only 'extra' tools he has are... dash attack and FLUDD. The latter's impact can be strong when used properly, which adds to Mario's advantage in neutral. But aside form that, the brothers play neutral mostly the same way at top level of play, because to be honest, their goals are almost the exact same in neutral.

The only real differences between their neutrals are probably just FLUDD... and Fireball. Mario can blow shorthops away for a potential ledge mix-ups, which is beneficial due to his advantage and U-smash. Luigi's Fireballs' ignorance of gravity gives him another tool to contest aerials and landings, which can be rather annoying since he can dash in to grab you if you are hit close to the ground. Other than that though? I think both play neutral the same way.

Or that may just be me dual-maining them and I just happen to transfer what I know from playing Luigi for two years to Mario, and the fact Mario's tools are yet to be optimized. This is how I percieve things anyway. Feel free to rain me down with corrections. I love getting those.
preface: I play Mario

Luigi plays a much more ground-based neutral than Mario in many respects. His fireball and jab (way better than Mario's), as well as superior foxtrot, enable him to box and mix up his options on the ground very effectively, whereas Mario plays more of an aerial/grab mix-up oriented neutral. This also has to do with Mario's control over his aerial momentum, which provides better opportunities to mix up with aerials. Moreover, unlike with Luigi, Mario gets a ton of reward off pretty much all of his aerials as opposed to just dair at certain percents and (unsafe) soft nair. Luigi's neutral does involve spacing aerials too, but it's in a much different way than Mario really, especially because Luigi has a legitimate front-facing aerial option but also because double aerial (two aerials in one short hop) with Luigi is way less effective/safe. I see the similarities, but I think the differences are also very notable if you look deeper.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,919
Location
Colorado
Because he has a disadvantage state worse than all 3 of them put together. Combo food, jugglefood, gimpable, spikeable, long FAFs, you name it. SolidSense had an exercise 50 pages back about the smallest buff that puts a char in top tier. Link was difficult. I'd give him a frame 1 airdodge with no landing lag, and even then I'm not sure it's enough.

Abadango's Pac has done more than all the Link mains put together.

Link does get juggled hard by things like Mario's Utilt but his disadvantage state overall isn't too bad. He has good landing options with low landing lag Zair, Nair, Fair, Bair at 8, 10, 12 and 10 frames respectively. He can also FF airdodge>tether the ledge. And bombs are a huge part of his entire game including disadvantage. His heavy weight lets him not get throw comboed as much as light characters. His recovery is mid tier right next to Toon Link's. I can't believe the game's been out for this long and people still have a Brawl mindset about Link.
https://smashboards.com/threads/recovery-rankings.381244/
He has long FAFs on some moves, most notably smashes so the simple answer is don't spam smashes. Use jabs, tilts and aerials with projectile setups.
Link's biggest problem in disadvantage is the risk of being timed out because he has trouble chasing down speedy characters and killing.

In terms of Link's results: have you seen T's results? If you look at the bottom of post 2 for "final results" Link's doing better than Pac Man.
https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/#post-21234525

Sorry I can't go into more detail; my kitten's driving me crazy.
 
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TheGoodGuava

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 16, 2015
Messages
744
Location
At Home
Because he has a disadvantage state worse than all 3 of them put together. Combo food, jugglefood, gimpable, spikeable, long FAFs, you name it. SolidSense had an exercise 50 pages back about the smallest buff that puts a char in top tier. Link was difficult. I'd give him a frame 1 airdodge with no landing lag, and even then I'm not sure it's enough.

Abadango's Pac has done more than all the Link mains put together.
Disadvantage isn't everything and you're over exaggerating how bad Link's is anyways. He isn't jugglefood with nair, dair, and bomb landings, Kirby and BJR are arguably worse at landing than him and worse in disadvantage overall. Everything you said about his recovery applies to both Kirby and BJR. FAF doesn't matter, what matters is the FAF relative to the last active hitbox aka end lag. Link's endlag on everything but fair and zair is exceedingly low, his hitboxes last much longer (3 of them outlast airdodges, up air in particular destroys anyone who doesn't have decent burst mobility), and his damage output is much higher overall.

Pac Man's disadvantage is actually good and probably the only thing keeping him out of bottom tier.

The easiest way to buff Link into top tier would increase his run/air speed to match Marcina's.
 

RonNewcomb

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 29, 2014
Messages
449
Link does get juggled hard by things like Mario's Utilt but his disadvantage state overall isn't too bad. He has good landing options with low landing lag Zair, Nair, Fair, Bair at 8, 10, 12 and 10 frames respectively. He can also FF airdodge>tether the ledge. And bombs are a huge part of his entire game including disadvantage. His heavy weight lets him not get throw comboed as much as light characters. His recovery is mid tier right next to Toon Link's. I can't believe the game's been out for this long and people still have a Brawl mindset about Link.
https://smashboards.com/threads/recovery-rankings.381244/
He has long FAFs on some moves, most notably smashes so the simple answer is don't spam smashes. Use jabs, tilts and aerials with projectile setups.
Link's biggest problem in disadvantage is the risk of being timed out because he has trouble chasing down speedy characters and killing.

In terms of Link's results: have you seen T's results? If you look at the bottom of post 2 for "final results" Link's doing better than Pac Man.
https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/#post-21234525

Sorry I can't go into more detail; my kitten's driving me crazy.
Landing options include getting past your opponent's juggling options, which side aerials and zair cannot help with unless you've good air mobility. Same for B-reverse. Nair has no disjoint, dair has startup & endlag & landing lag, bomb pull has so much startup you need to be in the stratosphere before even considering it.

His recovery is bottom third, per your link, beneath Kirby and Bowjow, and that's putting Marcina beneath Link which i find suspect. We don't edgeguard Marcina like we do Link.

His FAFs on everything are so long that jab was unsafe to whiff before a patch doubled his tether range, making it unsafe to stand just beyond Jab's reach.

I don't know where you're going with inability to kill. Runaway Sonic I guess, but that's a Sonic issue almost cast-wide.

Disadvantage isn't everything and you're over exaggerating how bad Link's is anyways. He isn't jugglefood with nair, dair, and bomb landings, Kirby and BJR are arguably worse at landing than him and worse in disadvantage overall. Everything you said about his recovery applies to both Kirby and BJR. FAF doesn't matter, what matters is the FAF relative to the last active hitbox aka end lag. Link's endlag on everything but fair and zair is exceedingly low, his hitboxes last much longer (3 of them outlast airdodges, up air in particular destroys anyone who doesn't have decent burst mobility), and his damage output is much higher overall.
.
Kirby has multiple jumps, bow jow has sideways burst mobility plus an up b which drops a bomb and doubles his air mobility.

Most smash aerials, tilts, and jabs have only 2 active frames, so longer FAF means a greater % of time you're a sitting duck. Which means more likely to find yourself exiting neutral in the bad way and praying you have a good enough disadvantage state to return to neutral soon.
 

TheGoodGuava

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 16, 2015
Messages
744
Location
At Home
Landing options include getting past your opponent's juggling options, which side aerials and zair cannot help with unless you've good air mobility. Same for B-reverse. Nair has no disjoint, dair has startup & endlag & landing lag, bomb pull has so much startup you need to be in the stratosphere before even considering it.

His recovery is bottom third, per your link, beneath Kirby and Bowjow, and that's putting Marcina beneath Link which i find suspect. We don't edgeguard Marcina like we do Link.

His FAFs on everything are so long that jab was unsafe to whiff before a patch doubled his tether range, making it unsafe to stand just beyond Jab's reach.

I don't know where you're going with inability to kill. Runaway Sonic I guess, but that's a Sonic issue almost cast-wide.



Kirby has multiple jumps, bow jow has sideways burst mobility plus an up b which drops a bomb and doubles his air mobility.

Most smash aerials, tilts, and jabs have only 2 active frames, so longer FAF means a greater % of time you're a sitting duck. Which means more likely to find yourself exiting neutral in the bad way and praying you have a good enough disadvantage state to return to neutral soon.
Link doesn't use smash attacks in neutral, he uses his great tilts, aerials, projectiles, and zair. Link's tilts have range that rival Marth's and roughly the same endlag making them amazing pokes and counterpokes. His FAFs aren't even bad to begin with (31 bair, 39 nair, 38 ftilt, 29 dtilt, 50 fair, etc) and because of their high damage output and range they're safe in most situations. Just because dair (which only has 16 frames of endlag and ACs 1 frame after the final hitbox) and uair (which only has 20 frames of endlag, has more disjoint than Clouds, lasts longer than airdodges, and ACs in a FH) have high FAFs doesn't mean all of his moves do.
Kirby has multiple jumps but no landing options, no burst mobility, predictable recovery with poor hitboxes, and hes a featherweight.
BJR is combo food, is easier to gimp than Link, and has no landing options. Sure he can up B but you can just shield that and then what happens? He has no jump, no airdodge, no hitboxes below him, and hes going to get stuck back in a juggle situation. If he gets knocked offstage hes stuck in an even worse situation than before.

His neutral is better than all of these characters anyways so he shouldn't be in disadvantage nearly as much to begin with.
 
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|RK|

Smash Marketer
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Messages
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As a thought - Kirby can reset to ledge really easily thanks to the aforementioned multi jumps. Not quite sure why his landing is being compared to Link's, but under, say, uair pressure from Cloud, Kirby can just go up and away. Link will eat a lot more damage.

Obviously, this isn't perfect against characters that have crazy ledge pressure (Rosalina & Luma) unless he has a projectile, but it is better than getting juggled. Most of the time. Oh, and projectiles are also pretty good for landing, too. So Kirby doesn't have it that rough unless you're trying to land on your opponent for some reason.
 

YerTheBestAROUND

Smash Journeyman
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Apr 22, 2015
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Playing Zelda: Breath of the Wild for eternity.
Link doesn't use smash attacks in neutral, he uses his great tilts, aerials, projectiles, and zair. Link's tilts have range that rival Marth's and roughly the same endlag making them amazing pokes and counterpokes. His FAFs aren't even bad to begin with (31 bair, 39 nair, 38 ftilt, 29 dtilt, 50 fair, etc) and because of their high damage output and range they're safe in most situations. Just because dair (which only has 16 frames of endlag and ACs 1 frame after the final hitbox) and uair (which only has 20 frames of endlag, has more disjoint than Clouds, lasts longer than airdodges, and ACs in a FH) have high FAFs doesn't mean all of his moves do.
Kirby has multiple jumps but no landing options, no burst mobility, predictable recovery with poor hitboxes, and hes a featherweight.
BJR is combo food, is easier to gimp than Link, and has no landing options. Sure he can up B but you can just shield that and then what happens? He has no jump, no airdodge, no hitboxes below him, and hes going to get stuck back in a juggle situation. If he gets knocked offstage hes stuck in an even worse situation than before.

His neutral is better than all of these characters anyways so he shouldn't be in disadvantage nearly as much to begin with.
Link's tilts may have similar range and end lag to Marth, but they don't have the same start up that Marth does, and ftilt starts behind Link so it's really not a good poke but you're right about it being a good counter poke and it's got some solid kill power behind it as well. Jab, dtilt, and zair are his main pokes that aren't projectiles.

Fair is safe, but nair and bair really aren't all that safe, and ftilt must be spaced properly to be safe, he's lucky if he's able to get a jab in but that's all hes got available to him that's going to have a chance at being fast enough if you whiff or hit a shield with ftilt. You have to try and get out of there as fast as possible if you don't hit your bair or nair and your opponent can still follow where you go.

A lot of his moves last a long time too, which makes him much more susceptible to whiff punishes as well cause any relevant character just has to react run up and punish. Playing reactively against Link can really him.

While it's somewhat dependent on what character he's up against, Kirby for the most part has a better above the stage disadvantage than Link does. Similar to Pac Man, Bowser and other characters with quick stall-then-fall moves, down b is always a potential threat with Kirby and his multiple jumps plus dair make mixing it up a little easier (Unless you're fighting Cloud LOL). Link's dair is really slow, using side aerials requires that your opponent is beside you, not below you, and nair does not work well past mid percents, it's out too long to not be able to react to despite Link's amazing fast fall speed. It's too easy to just hit him out of it. This leaves the unsafe dair, well timed air dodges, and blowing yourself up or hoping your opponent is near you when you blow yourself up as means of getting out of disadvantage and you either have to have already had a bomb or be at a higher percent and launched really high in order for you to pull another for that to matter.

Kirby's neutral and Link's neutral are not comparable either. When Kirby is in the lead he has a much better neutral than Link, and a lot of mid-high tiers for that matter. He's incredibly good at turtling. They play nothing like each other and are better in different situations.

Bowser Jr. just sucks in general so saying Link's better than him really doesn't mean much because around 80% of the cast is better than Bowser Jr. The only good thing about Jr. is his juggle game.
 
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Nathan Richardson

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Eesh, I use Ludwig yeah the main issue with bjr's recovery is the hammer swing that comes out after upb is used is mainly supposed to be used to smack your opponent if the explosion launches them toward you, in order to regain your upb you have to air dodge which takes a LOT more time than is needed...
 

Rizen

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YerTheBestAROUND YerTheBestAROUND , RonNewcomb RonNewcomb
First of all Nair with 10 frames of landing lag pared with Link's 90% increase in FF speed is a good way to land and breaks most juggles if Link has enough break to start it on frame 7. It has disjoint even though his legs are still hurtboxes the same way Ness' Nair has disjoint. Link's hitbubbles are fat and only huge disjoints don't at least trade or get beaten by them (here's looking at you Rosa rings).
https://youtu.be/zheUdc5bIPI?t=38
Link's Nair and Dair lasting a long time means if he starts them early enough he can time FF to shoot down during the opponent's lag. Nair is +5/+2 weak hit on shield drop. Link can often land to cancel aerials rather than waiting them out (-Dair/Uair) ; it's like 10 or 12 frames of lag when Link chooses to land.
With that said, certain juggles do give him trouble and he doesn't have a good quick aerial to break combos. Link will eat damage but once there's a break he can recovery well.
Also bombs spawn frame 17 FAF 40. Not a long time and if Link can double jump he can pull these little trump cards for landings.

About advantage and neutral; Link has 3 projectiles, a disjointed sword and Zair. A big thing he has over Kirby is forcing most of the cast to approach.

Comparing Kirby to Link is like comparing an apple and orange. It doesn't mean much. I could point out how Link has disjoint, low landing lag, freakishly good FF and bombs. He also does't get eaten alive by weight dependent throw combos and things like MK's ladder (well not as much as floaties anyway). Kirby has multiple jumps, stone and his own plethora of partially effective mid-tier level options. Apples to oranges.

Edit, here's a good example of Link. Scizor vs K9.
 
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Nathan Richardson

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Shouldn't we be comparing link to other swordies instead of non-swordies since while not identical and while some of them aren't even similar they're the closest to compare? Like Link and Toon Link, what makes one better over the other? We already went over link and marth, what about Link and Cloud?
 

TheGoodGuava

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Optimal Link neutral doesn't play much like other swordies. While he is good at mid range spacing, he focuses more on zoning. He should try to be around max zair range, where his opponent poses little threat and he can still get bomb/boomerang conversions. He does good against other zoners because his Hylian shield eats through projectiles and forces them to approach, something that they don't want to do. Characters that can break his zoning are still forced to deal with his mid range spacing, which usually puts them back where he wants them to be.

His hardest counter is definitely Fox. No other character breaks through zoning and mid range game as good, and he destroys Link up close. Whats worse is that he can actually force Link to approach because lasers go through Hylian Shield and since he has a decent reflector he rarely has to worry about Link's projectiles anyways.
 
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Vyrnx

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I'm generally a Link defender, but he is definitely not an established mid tier and many of his weaknesses aren't being mentioned.

-Link has some of the overall worst movement stats. 9th slowest run, tied 6th slowest in the air, among the worst in stats concerning ability to change direction in the air, and a long initial dash. His only good mobility stat is his fast fall speed.

-His options out of dash are poor--he actually has almost nothing reliable or good in this department, especially without holding a bomb. His entire gameplan essentially has to work around this with zoning and tilts, but it's still a major aspect of the game he lacks.

-He has legitimately bad CQC--startup is the most important thing here and his startup is bad across the board, which is also a factor in:

-His bad startup means he is prone to getting stuffed out both on the ground and definitely in the air--

-His air to air combat is extremely poor--he has to rely on grounded anti airs, which can work, but it means his options are more predictable and he struggles to preemptively stuff out an opponent's jump (also because his speed doesn't allow it--rising zair can work though). Link certainly has counterplay to this, but an opponent jumping in still has plenty of mixup opportunities going for them and if successful, can pin Link.

-His OOS game is pretty good when he is holding a bomb, but horrible otherwise.

As far as Link's disadvantage state, it really isn't good. His recovery is good... Tether/up b is all the mixup he needs most of the time. He does struggle with long horizontal recoveries--he's too slow in the air and his normal fall is too fast for him to get within tether range--he will have to jump and up b at a predictable angle and should die for it. The number of moves that knock horizontally and with high knockback is pretty limited though. Exploding a bomb and double up b-ing is suuuper gimmicky and very punishable--it makes his subsequent up b extremely predictable. But again, with tether and up b at normal knockback/recovery ranges and angles, Link should be fine.

Link's ledge options, like most characters, aren't particularly good. I'm aware of his stuff like safe rising fair on an opponent shielding next to the ledge, but in a real match the opponent will be standing outside rising fair range and just cover Link's options from there.

I think his landing game is okayish, but with no air speed and no stalling moves, it's reasonable to expect extended damage on Link from a juggle. The normal/fast fall mix-up is pretty good though. The real issues he has in disadvantage are less vertical and more horizontal--stage control and such.

Other stuff in disadvantage--he gets comboed only slightly less severely than large framed fast fallers (a 1.6 fall speed isn't significantly floatier than Sheik's 1.75), and if he gets pinned or cornered, it is very tough for him to reset to neutral with his mobility and startup, among other things.

Link actually has a bunch of flaws that the character can play around to an extent (read: bombs), but they're still exploitable. He also has a whole bunch of strengths, and in the past I've made posts specifically about those. So when I make a list of Link's weaknesses, I'm not trying to ignore the fact that he has stuff that can lessen these weaknesses (and a good midrange wall as well as a great advantage state oozing with kill power).
 
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SkippyJ

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So, guys,
cloud has a fantastic mu vs rosa, great sonic mu, and very good Mario mu

Mario has a very good shiek, diddy, and pika mu (imo)

Sonic has a very good mario mu

Megaman has a very good diddy mu

What meta relevant characters do diddy, bayo, and rosa do very well against to justify their spot on tier lists? I don't disagree with their top 5 or top 10 placing, but when I think about it I can't think of who they decidedly win against.
 

TDK

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There's an argument to be made that Rosa beats everyone below MK on the tier list. (Not the official one, mind you... Marcina is probably even for her).

In fact, she probably beats most low/mid tiers harder than most top tiers, in addition to only really losing three matchups. that's why.

Of course, I'm not a Rosa main I'm just a very knowledgeable Rosa secondary.
 
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Rizen

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-His air to air combat is extremely poor--he has to rely on grounded anti airs, which can work, but it means his options are more predictable and he struggles to preemptively stuff out an opponent's jump (also because his speed doesn't allow it--rising zair can work though). Link certainly has counterplay to this, but an opponent jumping in still has plenty of mixup opportunities going for them and if successful, can pin Link.
I generally agree except for this part. Link has huge disjointed aerials with low landing lag. It's a zoning game as always but he beats out most opponents' air options. Fair is a great kill move, Uair beats almost everything from below, Dair has surprising disjoint and the weird property of bouncing off hitboxes and shields. He can Zair to out-range characters with larger normal attack disjoint like Marcina. Bair's a decent RAR and can landing cancel combo into things like reverse upB (ground). Nair is a big sex-kick once it gets going. Like I said though, Link needs a bit of time to get going and lacks fast combo breakers.

PS
Pivot grab/Ftilt are good at stuffing SH approaches.
 
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DanGR

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Rosa's best top tier matchups (assuming a roughly ~10 character 'top tier') is one of Mario, Fox, and Sonic. IMO, Rosa is 55:45 versus all 3, but obviously opinions vary and things change.
 
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Fenny

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So, guys,
cloud has a fantastic mu vs rosa, great sonic mu, and very good Mario mu

Mario has a very good shiek, diddy, and pika mu (imo)

Sonic has a very good mario mu

Megaman has a very good diddy mu

What meta relevant characters do diddy, bayo, and rosa do very well against to justify their spot on tier lists? I don't disagree with their top 5 or top 10 placing, but when I think about it I can't think of who they decidedly win against.
Diddy shuts down Mewtwo and ZSS in most situations, more than likely wins against Bayo, and overall goes even with virtually everyone else in top tier while shutting down the vast majority of the cast.

Bayo beats Cloud, Rosa (although its volatile) and Fox, while going more or less even with the rest of top tier. Her worst MUs are Diddy and Shiek, and they're probably 55-45 at worst. Lucas does well against her too imo. Her punish game and dumb hitboxes means she basically steamrolls through everyone else.
 

bc1910

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So, guys,
cloud has a fantastic mu vs rosa, great sonic mu, and very good Mario mu

Mario has a very good shiek, diddy, and pika mu (imo)

Sonic has a very good mario mu

Megaman has a very good diddy mu

What meta relevant characters do diddy, bayo, and rosa do very well against to justify their spot on tier lists? I don't disagree with their top 5 or top 10 placing, but when I think about it I can't think of who they decidedly win against.
In Bayo and particularly Diddy's case it's not that they do "very well" in particular against any meta relevant characters. It's more that they don't get hard countered by anyone and go even at worst in almost all of their MUs, with most being 55:45 their favour or better. In bracket, the consistent slightly advantageous MUs seriously add up and you're only ever fighting even MUs at worst. We can't say for sure if Bayo loses to anyone at the moment, and Diddy's only meta relevant losing MU seems to be Mega Man (potentially Mario) who is still pretty beatable and isn't exactly common.

To answer your question directly, Diddy beats Mewtwo strongly and Bayo beats Fox strongly, but polarizing MUs aren't what make these characters so good.

Rosalina is lower down on the tier list than those two, justified by her strong MUs against the cream of the crop (she may yet prove to have the best Sheik MU in the game) and balanced by a hard counter in MK and a couple of iffy MUs ie Cloud.
 
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