Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[blackghost]

In Bayo and particularly Diddy's case it's not that they do "very well" in particular against any meta relevant characters. It's more that they don't get hard countered by anyone and go even at worst in almost all of their MUs, with most being 55:45 their favour or better. In bracket, the consistent slightly advantageous MUs seriously add up and you're only ever fighting even MUs at worst. We can't say for sure if Bayo loses to anyone at the moment, and Diddy's only meta relevant losing MU seems to be Mega Man (potentially Mario) who is still pretty beatable and isn't exactly common.

To answer your question directly, Diddy beats Mewtwo strongly and Bayo beats Fox strongly, but polarizing MUs aren't what make these characters so good.

Rosalina is lower down on the tier list than those two, justified by her strong MUs against the cream of the crop (she may yet prove to have the best Sheik MU in the game) and balanced by a hard counter in MK and a couple of iffy MUs ie Cloud.

if say shiek could potentially become a more clear issue for bayo as well. Because shiek can slaughter bayo if she get put in an disadvantage state. Shiek's frame data and speed render bayo airdodge worthless(exposing bayo specific combos and setups by a skilled shiek) and bat within is a liability against any combo characters in short hop situations or mid combo. as for witch time, as long as your opponent isnt swinging wildly landing a witch time is harder against people familiar with the mu.
plus shiek has a good throw game and can edge guard bayo if she has to recover horizontally.
im basing my opinion from how well void handles the mu.

 

[Fenny]

Sheik has numerous kill setups against Bayo, it's dumb. Both of them get tons of reward off hit against each other, and an amazing disadvantage state.

The difference is in neutral, where Shiek bodies her, so Shiek finds herself exploiting her advantage more than Bayo does. So Bayo is under more pressure to make the most of the openings she can get, since every time they end back in neutral she's at a disadvantage. Doesn't help that Shiek is virtually ungimpable but her needles give her a better tool to gimp Bayo - and those needles lead to a Bouncing Fish kill.

Really, depending on the playstyle of the Shiek and the stage you're on, the MU can be really fun or legit suffering for Bayo. Hint - avoid FD like the plague.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The extent by which Bayonetta beats Fox is still up in the air.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I think beats Fox a lot easier than but I agree that the extent is hard to determine.

Sheik has numerous kill setups against Bayo, it's dumb. Both of them get tons of reward off hit against each other, and an amazing disadvantage state.

The difference is in neutral, where Shiek bodies her, so Shiek finds herself exploiting her advantage more than Bayo does. So Bayo is under more pressure to make the most of the openings she can get, since every time they end back in neutral she's at a disadvantage. Doesn't help that Shiek is virtually ungimpable but her needles give her a better tool to gimp Bayo - and those needles lead to a Bouncing Fish kill.

Really, depending on the playstyle of the Shiek and the stage you're on, the MU can be really fun or legit suffering for Bayo. Hint - avoid FD like the plague.

The more I play this matchup the more depressing it feels for Bayo.
Sheik outdamages her, has a better disadvantage overall in the MU, has a much better neutral, and has an easier time ledgetrapping and edgeguarding than Bayo does. As @←/Felicia could tell you from our multiple games together, Sheik also consistently kills Bayo MUCH earlier than vice versa outside of Witch Time and super hard reads. Having a real throw 50/50, guaranteed 40% minimum grab conversions from 0, and true followups off throws until death % means you can just play like prepatch and needle/fair/grab until you take stocks.
Hope the Bayo players figure something out in the MU, because it's looking worse and worse to me as time goes on

 

[blackghost]

The extent by which Bayonetta beats Fox is still up in the air.

if the bayo either cannot or isnt consistent with the fair string the entire mu changes.if the bayo player can land them its a min 6-4 bayo. if the player cant then its 5.5 - 4.5 bayo probably. i know its a very limited look at a match but the game can end in two confirms or it can be a rushdown frenzy and bayo is fine being rushed but she hates getting combo'd because of her weight and fall speed. if the fox player can read air dodges and witch times bayo will struggle to breathe against fox.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

That couldn't possibly be the case as Fox does not beat Link by more than 6/4.

according to who? Fox breaks through his zoning and spacing ridiculously fast, and steamrolls him up close. Link always has to approach and that's something Link is kind of bad at

 

[Fenny]

The extent by which Bayonetta beats Fox is still up in the air.

It literally hinges on whether the Bayo can fair string them or not.

If she can, and consistently, then the matchup is like a -2 for Fox at the minimum, since if he doesn't maintain centre stage he's at constant risk of being dragged into the blast zone if he ends up in disadvantage. If she can't then he can combo her almost as hard as she can combo him.

Also one of the few characters whose advantage state Bayo's burst mobility doesn't do as much to mitigate since Uair is dumb as hell and it's weirdly good at clipping her out of her movement if he's below her. What tips stuff in Bayo's favour is Fox's susceptibility to Witch Time and getting gimped. So 55-45.

 

[TDK]

according to who? Fox breaks through his zoning and spacing ridiculously fast, and steamrolls him up close. Link always has to approach and that's something Link is kind of bad at

If Fox is breaking through his zoning and spacing, that means he's approaching, so Link doesn't have to.

Link's also kind of good at getting combos on Fastfallers.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fox steamrolls Link up close? Link is like the only character in the game that can reliably punish a Fox utilt in the BACK of his shield, even a perfectly spaced one. To make matters worse the move that allows him to do so - I'm talking about up B - also happens to kill Fox at annoingly low percent. To be honest, you guys don't know nearly enough about Link to be talking about him as if you knew how it works. Yeah, his jab is pretty slow but that doesn't mean he's easy to approach - once you get killed by him at ~100% because you foolishly thought that you can just nair his shield you'll know what I'm talking about.

Furthermore, Link's dthrow is pretty much the worst thing for Fox to get hit by. That move just straight up wrecks Fox at just about any percent. inb4Link's grab sucks. No it doesn't, but how would you guys know?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-EQebE4NPk

 

[Fenny]

I think beats Fox a lot easier than but I agree that the extent is hard to determine.

The more I play this matchup the more depressing it feels for Bayo.
Sheik outdamages her, has a better disadvantage overall in the MU, has a much better neutral, and has an easier time ledgetrapping and edgeguarding than Bayo does. As @←/Felicia could tell you from our multiple games together, Sheik also consistently kills Bayo MUCH earlier than vice versa outside of Witch Time and super hard reads. Having a real throw 50/50, guaranteed 40% minimum grab conversions from 0, and true followups off throws until death % means you can just play like prepatch and needle/fair/grab until you take stocks.
Hope the Bayo players figure something out in the MU, because it's looking worse and worse to me as time goes on

Yeah, I have a Shiek partner I play a lot with too.

He's too noble though, he doesn't play scummy enough. If he literally just hangs back and needlecamps then life just becomes anything from irritating to straight bad for Bayo. On FD it becomes like 60-40 Shiek since it's nothing but firing and reacting to her already limited oprions to approach. Not fun at all lmao. While on platforms it forces reactions since while needles are online she always has an emergency 'kill for no reason' combo.

Pink and Salem have the most Shiek experience of any Bayo out there right now, with Pink having a usual sparring partner in VoiD and occasionally Mr R while Salem secondaries her. Hopefully they'll think of something lol

 

[Vyrnx]

Fox steamrolls Link up close? Link is like the only character in the game that can reliably punish a Fox utilt in the BACK of his shield, even a perfectly spaced one. To make matters worse the move that allows him to do so - I'm talking about up B - also happens to kill Fox at annoingly low percent. To be honest, you guys don't know nearly enough about Link to be talking about him as if you knew how it works. Yeah, his jab is pretty slow but that doesn't mean he's easy to approach - once you get killed by him at ~100% because you foolishly thought that you can just nair his shield you'll know what I'm talking about.

Furthermore, Link's dthrow is pretty much the worst thing for Fox to get hit by. That move just straight up wrecks Fox at just about any percent. inb4Link's grab sucks. No it doesn't, but how would you guys know?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-EQebE4NPk

Link cannot up b oos a spaced Fox utilt without a powershield. The shield push back puts him out of range. Poorly spaced ones, sure. The distinction can be hard to make in the middle of Fox's shield pressure, though; a missed up b is obviously really bad. Up b oos can be occasionally good for bad dash attacks or utilts from Fox or from a powershield, but it doesn't mean Fox doesn't body Link at close range with ac bair/dair, tomahawks, and having moves that start before frame 7.

One of the reasons people tend to think Link's grab is better than it is is because he's slow, but his tether grab extends "fast" (compared to the distance it goes). That plus universal tether grab pros like extending advantage (catching landings) and being a good anti grounded approach move and a pretty good anti air make the move seem okay. The fact that Link's throws put the opponent in a bad spot by having, as opposed to Pac/Samus/Tink, reliable throw combos, means he can dthrow-->combo-->catch a landing with another grab. Similar to how some ZSS players think her dash grab is good because of the momentum boost and how good it is at catching landings.

But Link's grab is not good. By any standards, especially grab standards, the startup and end lag are awful. Even if a Link player theoretically never whiffs a grab, then just by virtue of having a tether, he will have a bad oos grab and will not have the same options of non tether characters.

His grab has pros, but a nontether character can grab oos and whiff without being in 60+ frames of lag. It's common sense that the tether grabs are the worst grabs in the game, even on a character like Link who fits it decently well into his kit, or even if it has some particular utility you're referring to.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Link cannot up b oos a spaced Fox utilt without a powershield. The shield push back puts him out of range. Poorly spaced ones, sure. The distinction can be hard to make in the middle of Fox's shield pressure, though; a missed up b is obviously really bad. Up b oos can be occasionally good for bad dash attacks or utilts from Fox or from a powershield [...]

OK, I've literally just posted a video that proves the opposite but I'm sure reality has nothing on your theorycraft

 

[RonNewcomb]

@YerTheBestAROUND, RonNewcomb
First of all Nair with 10 frames of landing lag pared with Link's 90% increase in FF speed is a good way to land and breaks most juggles if Link has enough break to start it on frame 7. It has disjoint even though his legs are still hurtboxes the same way Ness' Nair has disjoint. Link's hitbubbles are fat and only huge disjoints don't at least trade or get beaten by them (here's looking at you Rosa rings).
https://youtu.be/zheUdc5bIPI?t=38
Link's Nair and Dair lasting a long time means if he starts them early enough he can time FF to shoot down during the opponent's lag. Nair is +5/+2 weak hit on shield drop. Link can often land to cancel aerials rather than waiting them out (-Dair/Uair) ; it's like 10 or 12 frames of lag when Link chooses to land.
With that said, certain juggles do give him trouble and he doesn't have a good quick aerial to break combos. Link will eat damage but once there's a break he can recovery well.

The linked vid doesn't show disjoint at all. There's no hurtboxes.

"if Link has enough break to start it" and "Link will eat damage but once there's a break he can recovery well" capture in a nutshell why Link has bad disadvantage and hence is low tier not mid. He needs his opponents to cooperate before he can return to neutral. That's the very definition of bad disadvantage. If your opponent gives you a break, you haven't escaped disadvantage, it's just their advantage state has run its course.

His hardest counter is definitely Fox. No other character breaks through zoning and mid range game as good, and he destroys Link up close. Whats worse is that he can actually force Link to approach because lasers go through Hylian Shield and since he has a decent reflector he rarely has to worry about Link's projectiles anyways.

Sheik is his worst, and your Hylian Shield info is out of date by what, 6 patches? 7?

 

[Vyrnx]

OK, I've literally just posted a video that proves the opposite but I'm sure reality has nothing on your theorycraft

Edit: I think I misunderstood your post. If you mean spaced utilt is punishable by up b oos like you said earlier, it isn't, but if you mean the Link player can react to poorly spaced utilts and pick them out from the ones he can't punish, possibly. Shogun only spaced a few utilts well early on in the set and T did not up b those. One of my points is that if the Link player is wrong and whiffs up b, it's obviously extremely punishable--although the one time T whiffed up b, Shogun's punish was to dthrow him -.-

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Fox steamrolls Link up close? Link is like the only character in the game that can reliably punish a Fox utilt in the BACK of his shield, even a perfectly spaced one. To make matters worse the move that allows him to do so - I'm talking about up B - also happens to kill Fox at annoingly low percent. To be honest, you guys don't know nearly enough about Link to be talking about him as if you knew how it works. Yeah, his jab is pretty slow but that doesn't mean he's easy to approach - once you get killed by him at ~100% because you foolishly thought that you can just nair his shield you'll know what I'm talking about.

Furthermore, Link's dthrow is pretty much the worst thing for Fox to get hit by. That move just straight up wrecks Fox at just about any percent. inb4Link's grab sucks. No it doesn't, but how would you guys know?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-EQebE4NPk

guess i was wrong about the Fox vs Link matchup being completely horrible
I still think its worse than Link vs Sheik thought

Sheik is his worst, and your Hylian Shield info is out of date by what, 6 patches? 7?

i remembered that 10 minutes after I posted it

 

[Shaya]

Perfectly spaced (taking into consideration the extension of 'hurt box' from a shield's bubble reaching to jab range for some characters) moves on block are safe!
Who knew!?
More news at 11.

I would say from that video that Gheb linked, up-b was a lot less relevant than Up Smash as an OoS punishment that would make a Fox quiver in their boots lol.

 

[RonNewcomb]

I still think its worse than Link vs Sheik though

That's because at anything less than high-level play, Sheik is a mosquito.

Link cannot up b oos a spaced Fox utilt without a powershield. The shield push back puts him out of range. Poorly spaced ones, sure. The distinction can be hard to make in the middle of Fox's shield pressure, though; a missed up b is obviously really bad. Up b oos can be occasionally good for bad dash attacks or utilts from Fox or from a powershield, but it doesn't mean Fox doesn't body Link at close range with ac bair/dair, tomahawks, and having moves that start before frame 7.

One of the reasons people tend to think Link's grab is better than it is is because he's slow, but his tether grab extends "fast" (compared to the distance it goes). That plus universal tether grab pros like extending advantage (catching landings) and being a good anti grounded approach move and a pretty good anti air make the move seem okay. The fact that Link's throws put the opponent in a bad spot by having, as opposed to Pac/Samus/Tink, reliable throw combos, means he can dthrow-->combo-->catch a landing with another grab. Similar to how some ZSS players think her dash grab is good because of the momentum boost and how good it is at catching landings.

But Link's grab is not good. By any standards, especially grab standards, the startup and end lag are awful. Even if a Link player theoretically never whiffs a grab, then just by virtue of having a tether, he will have a bad oos grab and will not have the same options of non tether characters.

His grab has pros, but a nontether character can grab oos and whiff without being in 60+ frames of lag. It's common sense that the tether grabs are the worst grabs in the game, even on a character like Link who fits it decently well into his kit, or even if it has some particular utility you're referring to.

I agree and disagree. Just because a move doesn't serve the same role as that move on other chars doesn't automatically means its a bad move. Tethergrabs don't serve an OoS role like other grabs. But as you say, his serves an anti-landing role quite brilliantly. Which given his poor ground speed and projectiles with not insignificant startup time, serves his kit well.

Granted, he could use some better OoS options, but up-B is only 1 frame slower than his jab, and it deals with crossups.

The "particular utility" tethergrab has is in MUs where Link's opponent has a longer sword: Marth, Lucina, Shulk, Cloud, Ike, and Charizard. Link would have a much worse MU with these people if he couldn't, say, sheildgrab Shulk's air-to-ground nonsense at ranges that Shulk normally feels safe at, or scoop up Ike/Cloud to even up the damage score, or convince Charizard to leave the ground sometime.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

And my brain just turned to mush, though I will agree zard keeps link on the run using flamethrower to snuff out his first two projectiles and dash shields to deflect the third, zard typically has no reason to go airborne on Link unless Link gets on a platform. A lot of zards moves clank with Link's and good luck trying to use fair with zard when Link is ready for it...that's a guaranteed tether grab combo punish...

 

[Luco]

I think the idea that tethers are inherently inferior to non-tethers is a remnant of the Brawl age where tethers were in general much, much worse than they are now - usually startups, end-lags, etc were thrown down the drain in an attempt to balance them and only some pivot grabs were really useful (but those were really useful, I'm looking at you Olimar pivot grab).

In smash 4 most tethers have been buffed and a lot of the characters that retain tethers were given a game that centred or was partially focused on followups from these grabs, with a couple notable exceptions of characters who usually had other tools in their arsenal.

Tethers usually having just that few frames extra of startup in a CQC situation means characters with them are down an OoS option which is not great for those chars (in Lucas' case he doesn't have any other fast OoS) but it gives them an extra tool to deal with landings in a way other characters often struggle with. Which tbh is really powerful because it just so happens that a lot of these characters have ways of forcing approaches.

Jump and you're dead (they say to mooooost of the cast).

It's also relevant that most chars with tethers are given the ability to use that as an extra recovery option which literally makes or breaks some characters.

tl;dr most chars with tethers are appropriately compensated for taking away an OoS option, they usually have ways to force and punish approaches (especially aerial ones) and have a game that centres around the reward they get from throws.

 

[Rizen]

But Link's grab is not good. By any standards, especially grab standards, the startup and end lag are awful. Even if a Link player theoretically never whiffs a grab, then just by virtue of having a tether, he will have a bad oos grab and will not have the same options of non tether characters.

His grab has pros, but a nontether character can grab oos and whiff without being in 60+ frames of lag. It's common sense that the tether grabs are the worst grabs in the game, even on a character like Link who fits it decently well into his kit, or even if it has some particular utility you're referring to.

Link's grab is good by tether grab standards. It got significant buffs in a past patch reducing lag. Standing grab is active frames 12-17 FAF 62, and his slowest grab, pivot is 15-22 FAF 67. That beats the crud out of Samus, Pac, Toon Link, villager and ZSS in terms of frame data and is longer than all except Samus'. It air grabs, unlike Brawl. Olimar is the only tether grab to beat Link's. Sudo-tether grabs like Lucas' are faster in endlag but also start frame 12 and have half the length. Link's grab is literally as long as Shulk's Fsmash and Link doesn't extend his hurtbox in the process.
Link's grab can punish a lot of things a non-tether grab can't too so it's a trade-off. A non-tether grab can wiff from shield push. Good non-tether grabs are the best though.

The linked vid doesn't show disjoint at all. There's no hurtboxes.

"if Link has enough break to start it" and "Link will eat damage but once there's a break he can recovery well" capture in a nutshell why Link has bad disadvantage and hence is low tier not mid. He needs his opponents to cooperate before he can return to neutral. That's the very definition of bad disadvantage. If your opponent gives you a break, you haven't escaped disadvantage, it's just their advantage state has run its course.




Sheik is his worst, and your Hylian Shield info is out of date by what, 6 patches? 7?

Anytime hitbubbles aren't on top of hurtboxes, it's disjoint, which Nair clearly has. Link's hurtboxes are his body and appendages.

No that shows why Link gets comboed, not disadvantage as a whole. If you need to land or return to the stage, even when not immediately being juggled, it's still disadvantage. Did you watch the videos Gheb and I posted? Link didn't have too much trouble with juggles. The main thing he had trouble with was chasing down Sheik when he lost the lead.

I do agree Sheik is his worst MU, not Fox.

Charizard does not have more disjoint than Link. Cloud vs Link in terms of disjoint is on a move to move basis. Link's F/Utilts for example are longer than Cloud's.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I think the only moves that zard has that even HAVE disjoints are his up smash and fair. All of his other moves are 'what you see is what you get' (though his dsmash MIGHT have some disjoint...maybe....anyone who can clarify?)

 

[Deleted member]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

6WX made a placement of all the characters based on how they placed at supermajors this year.

 

[arbustopachon]

I think the only moves that zard has that even HAVE disjoints are his up smash and fair. All of his other moves are 'what you see is what you get' (though his dsmash MIGHT have some disjoint...maybe....anyone who can clarify?)

here.

Barring d-tilt all his stuff is kinda disjointed to a degree. Dair and u-tilt are rather notorious.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Anytime hitbubbles aren't on top of hurtboxes, it's disjoint, which Nair clearly has. Link's hurtboxes are his body and appendages.

Hurtboxes and animation bones are only loosely correlated. See DK & Bowser's f-tilts for example. Even for bones with an attached hurtbox, the radius & length of the hurtbox (actually a kind of shape called a capsule: a hurtcapsule) are properties separate from the triangle mesh which comprise the visible portion of a 3D model. The vid doesn't show the radius of any hurtcapsule attached to Link's animation model. So no, the vid doesn't show disjoint.

I'll trust you in this particular example that there is slight disjoint, but I've never seen nair stop Mario's u-airs, let alone Fox or Cloud's, so i find it a distinction without a difference.

Charizard does not have more disjoint than Link. Cloud vs Link in terms of disjoint is on a move to move basis. Link's F/Utilts for example are longer than Cloud's.

Pardon, I meant range, not necessarily disjoint. Zard's f-tilt outranges Link on the ground. Angled downward it's difficult for Link to deal with. Hence why tethergrab is a good thing for Link.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

here.

Barring d-tilt all his stuff is kinda disjointed to a degree. Dair and u-tilt are rather notorious.

Thanks, I'm kinda lazy though, hrrm it shows the hitboxes, but what about the hurtboxes on the moves, the video shows the hitboxes but not the hurtboxes.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

6WX made a placement of all the characters based on how they placed at supermajors this year.

Greninja only got up to Top 32 the whole year at the really important majors? That's surprising honestly.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja generally tends to not show up in supermajors, mainly because the best players of the character tend to not travel to those events very often.

At least, I don't remember if many high level Greninja players showed up for those.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I'm more interested in Olimars position than anything else, how many times has he been used in top 3?

 

[ARGHETH]

I'm more interested in Olimars position than anything else, how many times has he been used in top 3?

A bunch due to Dabuz

 

[Deleted member]

one thing to note is how bad both Palutena players drowned at ZeRo Saga.

TLTC got 65th and Ramen got 129th. No wonder TLTC dropped her in the end.

 

[Fenny]

one thing to note is how bad both Palutena players drowned at ZeRo Saga.

TLTC got 65th and Ramen got 129th. No wonder TLTC dropped her in the end.

Not all that surprised tbh, the tourney was crazy stacked. Can only go so far when Palu's only real saving grace against the upper echelon of the roster is matchup inexperience. That's hardly what you want to be relying on.

Palutena has terrible normals and a specials moveset that doesn't mesh together. In general, she ain't really a relevant threat without customs.

 

[bc1910]

I'll just leave these here.

I know the discussion has moved on but just to throw in my two penneth, I think Palutena is the most overrated character in the game at the moment. We've seen it happen a million times with these characters, they get a couple of strong results (with the obligatory cries of "s/he's ACTUALLY been performing well for some time) and everyone calls them high tier. They then settle back down. Palutena has a couple of very good moves but she is a skeleton character in Customs Off.

I laughed a lot at this so thanks for that.

Why Palutena is such a controversial topic is beyond me. This isn't the first time I've been insulted for sharing my opinion on her being a sub-par character. Not that I said she's bottom tier (although she is probably bottom of mid at best), so you can blow your false accusations right back.

If ZeRo hadn't lost to Prince Ramen (incidentally I'd bet he knew, and still knows, diddly-squat about the MU) you'd have nothing out of the ordinary to back this up, by the way. Plenty of sub-par characters take games and even sets off good players, particularly in Japan.

Ah well, I don't mind waiting a couple of months to be proved right.

 

[JB333]

TSC Tokaigi Qualifier (Japan, 61 entrants) http://challonge.com/fr/TSCTQT

1. Kare~
2. Haru3
3. Repo
4. Earth
5. Yuzu
5. Es
7. Some
7. Maguro

 

[Y2Kay]

Greninja generally tends to not show up in supermajors, mainly because the best players of the character tend to not travel to those events very often.

At least, I don't remember if many high level Greninja players showed up for those.

The only top level Greninja that showed up at an American Super Major was when Venia went to Super Smash Con. He got 25th, hence Gren's top 32 spot.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'll just leave these here.

May I add to your point by referring to some magnificent posts of mine from the 1.0 iteration of this thread?

https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...ive-impressions.429826/page-550#post-21335896
https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...ive-impressions.429826/page-552#post-21337152

Posted half a year ago.

 

[ReRaze]

TSC Tokaigi Qualifier (Japan, 61 entrants) http://challonge.com/fr/TSCTQT

1. Kare~
2. Haru3
3. Repo
4. Earth
5. Yuzu
5. Es
7. Some
7. Maguro

You almost never know who's gonna win a Japanese tourney and I love it.

 

[TDK]

When was the last time Earth won a japanese tournament?

 

[ARGHETH]

When was the last time Earth won a japanese tournament?

The "Umebura BenQ ZOWIE Cup" on the 18th, according to the wiki.

 

[Laken64]

Yea he beat KEN in GFs with and from losers I think

 

[Jaguar360]

The only top level Greninja that showed up at an American Super Major was when Venia went to Super Smash Con. He got 25th, hence Gren's top 32 spot.

Don't forget Stroder at EVO (33rd, double elim by 6WX), but the point still stands that Greninja mains tend to not travel much.

Thankfully, Shiki will be coming to Genesis next month and Some to Frostbite in February, so we'll see what happens then.