Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[The-Technique]

I gave a full year my absolute best and have no regrets. I plan to stop practicing Palu outside of specific MUs and focus elsewhere.

— TLTC (@ImTLTC) December 20, 2016

TLTC has dropped . Looks like Prince Ramen is the only notable Palutena left in the U.S.

That's a shame. Maybe I'm overly optimistic but I still think Palutena's meta can be pushed further.

 

[Routa]

Does anyone below D tier even have a solid, fully functioning disadvantage? Other than Pit and Wario, they're all lacking landing options, combo breakers, burst mobility, recovery, or any combination of those. Like yeah, they're better than Melee disadvantage in general, but I feel like people over exaggerate how good disadvantage is in this game

Well there is at least Brawler has good disadvantage... Well kinda.
He has frame 3 combo breaker, Feint Jump (if chosen), frame 4 Up-B (if chosen) and average-ish recovery with Feint Jump (quick, but is somewhat linear and only horizontal).
But then there is this whole neutral thing... yeah we have talked enough about that.

 

[Deleted member]

That's a shame. Maybe I'm overly optimistic but I still think Palutena's meta can be pushed further.

Maybe so, but I sorta feel like Palu's a one trick pony. Her results have somewhat waned lately from what I can see. Though many people naturally can have trouble with the matchup considering her powerful grab game and dealing with her unblockable moves (her bair is legitimately got to be one of the best aerials in the game).

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I can look you in the eye and say that of the top and high tiers, the only one that requires substantially greater amounts of skill to make work than the characters around or below them is.

Let's not beat around the bush here.

With her hitboxes, distance, and lack of endlag or special fall on her recovery moves, it's braindead. "But bayos SD!" is not a defense. Goddamn Shieks SD. There is no recovery so braindead that you will not find even top level players who will not screw them up horribly every once in a while.

And playing Bayo and winning is certainly easy mode. Would you consider it easier to play Duck Hunt? Bowser Jr? Charizard? Face it, top tiers are easy mode by definition.

I believe maining a top tier for a month would be a huge liberating experience for you.


What are your guys thoughts on ? I've read he's top 15, but I never really found out why. And how has Ito been doing?

 

[verbatim]

Let's talk about Zero saga for a minute. In top 8, Leo did not switch off Marth for even a single game, even while Larry Lurr was on the cusp of winning the tournament after the bracket reset.

Clearly Leo was playing to win, so what is it that Marth can do that Cloud can't? Besides having a tremendously better recovery, obviously.

Leo played Cloud exclusively against 6WX. I think that may have more to do with the particular characters that he played against rather than going solo Marth just "because".

It'd be interesting to start a discussion on what characters "beat" Marth.

 

[The-Technique]

Leo played Cloud exclusively against 6WX. I think that may have more to do with the particular characters that he played against rather than going solo Marth just "because".

It'd be interesting to start a discussion on what characters "beat" Marth.

I'm aware, Leo also went solo Cloud against Dabuz. What I'm wondering is why Leo would rely on Marth when Cloud is widely considered a better character.

 

[Luigi player]

Leo played Cloud exclusively against 6WX. I think that may have more to do with the particular characters that he played against rather than going solo Marth just "because".

It'd be interesting to start a discussion on what characters "beat" Marth.

I think Sonic and DK could be candidates for that.

Sonic can space around Marth well while being able to punish some things from further away which other characters can't do.
DK can contest Marth in the air with his bair, while doing fine in neutral against him and ding dong is strong of course. Though maybe DKs bad disadvantage could put this back to even.

 

[blackghost]

Let's not beat around the bush here.

With her hitboxes, distance, and lack of endlag or special fall on her recovery moves, it's braindead. "But bayos SD!" is not a defense. Goddamn Shieks SD. There is no recovery so braindead that you will not find even top level players who will not screw them up horribly every once in a while.

And playing Bayo and winning is certainly easy mode. Would you consider it easier to play Duck Hunt? Bowser Jr? Charizard? Face it, top tiers are easy mode by definition.

how can you call bayo win by easy mode when she doesnt even place top 8 consistantly??? the fact is in majors she doesnt do well. the reasons for which need to be evaluated to remove this incorrect stigma agianst bayo as a character and those of is that play her.

 

[|RK|]

That's a shame. Maybe I'm overly optimistic but I still think Palutena's meta can be pushed further.

Dropping a character doesn't necessarily mean they can't go further. Sometimes the character just doesn't work for them.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Here's what I think regarding top tiers versus mid to low tiers. As a zard main i'm told that he's an easy character to master but thing is, once you master him that's it, he doesn't have the combos, defensive tactics and other options that top tiers have. In short the main thing that separates the top tiers from the rest of the cast is versatility. A low to mid tier is less versatile than a high to top tier in regards to moves.

(sorry for the edit, web browser ate my post)

 

[Nu~]

I think Sonic and DK could be candidates for that.

Sonic can space around Marth well while being able to punish some things from further away which other characters can't do.
DK can contest Marth in the air with his bair, while doing fine in neutral against him and ding dong is strong of course. Though maybe DKs bad disadvantage could put this back to even.

But how does DK get off of the ledge against Marth of all characters?

As soon as Marth gains substantial stage control in the MU, it seems that DK falls apart hard.

 

[The-Technique]

N Nathan Richardson
That's pretty much what separates mid tiers and top tiers, not just in smash 4 but all smash games in general. Top tiers have the most options to employ compared to the lower tiers.

 

[Deleted member]

Again, it still doesn't mean a low tier can't win a game.

 

[ARISTOS]

I'm aware, Leo also went solo Cloud against Dabuz. What I'm wondering is why Leo would rely on Marth when Cloud is widely considered a better character.

Yeah this is an interesting thought. Sonic definitely has a shout, but outside of him I can't really think of anyone else.

A lot of playing Marth requires you being equal or better in neutral than your opponent though, so I don't think he's really shutting anyone down that much though.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Again, it still doesn't mean a low tier can't win a game.

I never said they couldn't....it's just harder is all.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I think Sonic and DK could be candidates for that.

Sonic can space around Marth well while being able to punish some things from further away which other characters can't do.
DK can contest Marth in the air with his bair, while doing fine in neutral against him and ding dong is strong of course. Though maybe DKs bad disadvantage could put this back to even.

The matchup is only even in the neutral which is great and all but if Marth wins neutral once he should be taking a stock. DK has no landing options against a disjoint as good as Marth's, if he gets stuck at the ledge hes going to stay there until either the Marth messes up or DK dies, and if he ever has to recover hes going to end up losing the stock to counter spam.

 

[Shaya]

Eh.
His run speed isn't amazing. His aerialspeed/accel are just average. His options out of walk are broken but his walk accel is lol.
Options out of run aren't that great. Has a lot of trouble catching people with flips(Flip Jump, Bouncing Fish, Monkey Flip) because of how slow he is, despite having a long disjointed sword. His OoS game isn't great. His frame data is only average(but I'd put it at above average because swordie). His dash to shield is godawful. His jumpsquat is just average. He has to approach almost everyone and play on most of the top tier's terms.
I don't disagree that his neutral is good, but it's not as spectacular as you're making it seem.
There's not much here that makes his neutral look better than any character out of .
When you're playing Marth, there's no question of "how the hell am I going to hit this guy without getting hit myself," which is what a good neutral is all about. Top 5 neutral seems like a huge stretch to me, but if you changed that to top 10-15 it wouldn't seem as questionable.

His options out of a run are stupendous.
The horrendous dash to shield length is the design shortfall to counteract the significant amount of options he has. But like many design binaries, usually a high/top tier still comes out on top due to the strength of the positives (shoutouts to bayonetta).
Diddy Kong's options out of a run are a lot worse. He only has one stand out option: rising fair (or rar bair) with ZILCH aerial acceleration and with a banana some shenanigans (that people aren't letting Diddy get away with at top level as much anymore), rolls and dash grab are good but just like him jumping can be, primed to be baited/read and punished.
Why does ZeRo struggle against certain people/characters? Because Diddy's mid range footsies are kinda average - if you can circumvent forward air (Ally is godly at this, Marth kinda does this a lot easier than most of the cast) Diddy has to take more risk than his kit can make up for vs many higher characters - his oos options are basically limited to who gets hit with fair by being upright in their end lag. How can you circumvent fair? Well, it's like -20 if he has to land with it, and it can struggle to hit people on the rise, it's made to be near indomitable in it's line of fire but is still not an all encompassing tool (one of the best moves in the game, don't get me wrong - it's what allows him to reduce so many characters options in so many situations; like ledge guarding).

Marth has rising aerials, landing aerials, one of the best SHADs in the game, and can act before touching the ground on two aerials - so jumping out of a dash; he has [close to] the best available choices overall. Mewtwo may have a stronger claim, Sheik doesn't have a SHAD game but is probably the overall most dominant in the SH paradigm.
Dancing Blade has shown itself to be one of the best moves in the game; again. As it can be done out of a run and is transcended priority, he has something that will beat just about every poke or anti-approach even from those with comparable or better range - unless they also have a sword. Anyone notice how consistently Leo's (Mr.E does it too) dancing blade beats/punishes diddy fair? lol.

A largely disjointed pivot grab, the lovely pivot ftilt, long length rolls (average speed though), a very good full hop game (meta definitely kinda spurs in this direction - Diddy doesn't have a full hop game - or at least his fair becomes near useless within that sphere, and Megaman takes more risk applying pressure vs full hop tactics, Fox beats grounded/SH games with full hops but can't challenge others also at FH height, etc etc): how many characters can hit people on the ground on the rise with a full hop? I honestly don't know for sure but it's likely very uncommon.
And then of course there's to consider that although his dash2shield is slow, that his oos options are pretty potent, tilts/side-b/aerials, up-b, etc.
This isn't like Pikachu who has a below average dash to shield but with little to no solid dash options whatsoever.

His run itself isn't very fast, but he can still mostly chase - he's beyond that tipping point of being slower than certain characters in the air. Roy's niche is to be faster than Marth and sometimes you can feel that power of what having a faster running 'marth' can be like, yaaa it feels good LOL; but I think it's safe to say that his run speed is adequate nevertheless.
With things like back air and up air having amazing swinging angles/arcs (hitting horizontally far above his head) - he punishes flips with less risk than most characters. I feel like you might be generally misconstruing that flips aren't inherently difficult to punish. But with fantastic priority, comes great opportunities (Rosa/Luma's up airrrrrrrrr).

 

[Deleted member]

I never said they couldn't....it's just harder is all.

That's what I'm saying. If you ask me, they just have to play more defensively unlike most top/high tiers.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

The problem is some low tiers don't have a ton of defensive options and some of those get blown up immediately in the face of certain tactics. Playing defensively especially if you haven't practiced it is difficult.

 

[The-Technique]

Marth's frame data isn't just "average" it's better than Cloud's across the board, the one character everyone complains about being too strong and too fast.

 

[Deleted member]

Maybe those with projectiles (except King DDD) are better at defense? Link, Samus, and Duck Hunt come to mind.

 

[meticulousboy]

I've always talked about how there should be a master post for proper survival and smash DI for certain moves. There's no real way to find out without seeing for yourself. A convenient spot to look it up can further the play of many.

Example, I know there is a way to DI out of Captain Falcon's UAir to knee, but I always forget the proper DI for it. Out or in? Up or down? Things like that can help many players with the same concerns on different topics.

Glad I'm not the only who thinks about smash DI every time it needs to be done.

 

[Browny]

Would people say that Jigglypuff has a better than average disadvantage state?

You can't combo her almost as all and unless you are fast with a sword its kind of hard to catch her landings.

 

[TDK]

Whenever one of you calls Link a low tier it triggers me

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Link has C4 bombs, kill confirms off of bombs, huge combos off of bombs, bombs to cover his landings, a grab kill confirm, a kill throw, zair + fair spacing, bomb + boomerang + zair zoning, and the Hylian mother****ing Shield. With players like T, SOVA, and Izaw repping him I don't know why hes still considered low tier or even mentioned in the same breath as characters like BJR, Pac, and Kirby.

 

[meticulousboy]

Unlike Toon Link, Link can actually connect a double Bair. Sure Link is easier to land a hit on and may be easier to gimp, but he does have more range than his semi clone. Of all the characters in the game, Link has the most notable differences when he's rage. Don't sleep on a rage Link. All in all, Link can KO much sooner than Toon Link, but only if the Link player is a contestant on The Read is Right.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

What I'm wondering is why Leo would rely on Marth when Cloud is widely considered a better character.

"He's my new main and my favorite character in the game," is what Leo said in his interview along with "I've always wanted to win a really big tournament with Marth."
But other than that, Marth scales with fundamentals better than Cloud does, which is good, as well as a much better ground game than Cloud and the obvious recovery problems he probably just doesn't want to deal with as much. Except for maybe Fox, I think Marth does better against the characters Leo was facing near the end of the tournament better than Cloud does, so Mario, Diddy Kong, and Sheik.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I believe maining a top tier for a month would be a huge liberating experience for you.

Look, maybe if I wasn't insane that would be an option. Darkness knows I've considered it often enough. Alas, it is not to be.

What are your guys thoughts on ? I've read he's top 15, but I never really found out why. And how has Ito been doing?

He's fast, powerful, recovers easily, combos well, and absolutely destroys numerous matchups thanks to the ridiculousness of upair ladders, even though the nerfs hurt him.

afaik, Ito doesn't travel much, but he's still strong af

how can you call bayo win by easy mode when she doesnt even place top 8 consistantly??? the fact is in majors she doesnt do well. the reasons for which need to be evaluated to remove this incorrect stigma agianst bayo as a character and those of is that play her.

You mean, that they pick her up expecting easy wins off of jank because they can't get them with other characters? That she was designed and released broken as all hell and even two consecutive major nerfs only managed to make her top tier?

And, surprise surprise, it's not altogether shocking that players who are mid to high level run up against top level players who main the other top tiers in a major and get taken out. God damn, I saw MKleo take out almost every other player with a claim to a top 5 spot in the world on his way to win Zero Saga, including Zero himself. Nothing is guaranteed in tournaments. Especially majors.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Look, maybe if I wasn't insane that would be an option. Darkness knows I've considered it often enough. Alas, it is not to be.

He's fast, powerful, recovers easily, combos well, and absolutely destroys numerous matchups thanks to the ridiculousness of upair ladders, even though the nerfs hurt him.

afaik, Ito doesn't travel much, but he's still strong af

You mean, that they pick her up expecting easy wins off of jank because they can't get them with other characters? That she was designed and released broken as all hell and even two consecutive major nerfs only managed to make her top tier?

And, surprise surprise, it's not altogether shocking that players who are mid to high level run up against top level players who main the other top tiers in a major and get taken out. God damn, I saw MKleo take out almost every other player with a claim to a top 5 spot in the world on his way to win Zero Saga, including Zero himself. Nothing is guaranteed in tournaments. Especially majors.

Sorry but I'm going to come out and say I burst out laughing because this rant sounded exactly like the Zero Punctuation series I'm watching on Youtube, the similar way you talk is uncanny!

 

[The-Technique]

You mean, that they pick her up expecting easy wins off of jank because they can't get them with other characters? That she was designed and released broken as all hell and even two consecutive major nerfs only managed to make her top tier?

Are you saying that Pink Fresh, Salem, and the other Bayo mains are just riding on her top tier status? Really?

The salty top tier hatred is strong in this one.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Are you saying that Pink Fresh, Salem, and the other Bayo mains are just riding on her top tier status? Really?

The salty top tier hatred is strong in this one.

No, I'm asking what his vague, jumbled reference to an incorrect stigma refers to (besides, grammatically, that there is a correct stigma).

But now that you mention it...I believe that while the gentlemen in question have proven themselves top Bayo players, they have yet to prove themselves top players.

 

[Deleted member]

No, I'm asking what his vague, jumbled reference to an incorrect stigma refers to (besides, grammatically, that there is a correct stigma).

But now that you mention it...I believe that while the gentlemen in question have proven themselves top Bayo players, they have yet to prove themselves top players.

Now this is just plain bull****.

They're strong players playing a strong character.

Bayonetta carries no one.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

You know you struck a nerve when profanity is flung into the mix. *grab popcorn*

 

[FeelMeUp]

You know you struck a nerve when profanity is flung into the mix. *grab popcorn*

stop with these nonconstructive comments. it's better to just not say anything over doing this.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Now this is just plain bull****.

They're strong players playing a strong character.

Bayonetta carries no one.

Ghat damn, it's like miscommunication city up in here.

You are correct in that they are strong players playing a strong character. But that is not the same as being top players. Void is a top player. Zero is a top player. Larry is a top player. Ally is a top player. Nairo is a top player. Anti is a top player. Dabuz is a top player. MKLeo just proved himself to be far and away a top player while he was playing a strong character.

And yeah, they're great players. But until one of them breaks through that ceiling of top players and makes his name as more than just a top Bayonetta player, you're probably not going to see Bayonetta take a major.

 

[The-Technique]

"He's my new main and my favorite character in the game," is what Leo said in his interview along with "I've always wanted to win a really big tournament with Marth."
But other than that, Marth scales with fundamentals better than Cloud does, which is good, as well as a much better ground game than Cloud and the obvious recovery problems he probably just doesn't want to deal with as much. Except for maybe Fox, I think Marth does better against the characters Leo was facing near the end of the tournament better than Cloud does, so Mario, Diddy Kong, and Sheik.

Hmm, interesting. So what this suggests is that Marth boasts better (though not necessarily winning) matchups against Diddy Kong, Sheik, Bayo, and Mario, whereas Cloud has a better time versus Sonic and Rosalina.

So all around, who's the better character overall?

 

[|RK|]

I never said they couldn't....it's just harder is all.

Yup. It's a mental drain. Sometimes it's fun, but other times it's just tiring.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Wait you were warned for nonconstructive comments? And what page was arguing about buffs and what made it so bad?

this was mostly in the original tier list thread but its not story time right now

Bayonetta is easy to pick up but hard to play properly. At lower levels players usually wont know how to DI/SDI properly so you're usually free to just use whatever moves you want, they might even get hit by the prepatch 0 - deaths. At higher levels however, players are going to know how to get out of her combos and she gets easier to outplay in neutral with characters like Diddy, Sheik, and Mewtwo. This is where players need to learn how to properly link her normals together and only use things like ABK to chase people down in the air. Also, dtilt > rar up air > bair is an amazing kill confirm at 70, people should be using it more.

Hmm, interesting. So what this suggests is that Marth boasts better (though not necessarily winning) matchups against Diddy Kong, Sheik, Bayo, and Mario, whereas Cloud has a better time versus Sonic and Rosalina.

So all around, who's the better character overall?

Since Marth does just fine against Rosalina too, has a disjoint just as ridiculous as Clouds, better frame data, better kill power, and a better disadvantage, I'd normally say hes better. The problem is that Cloud can force an approach, has better mobility, a better combo game, and an arguably better advantage state. To me they're around the same level.

 

[Deleted member]

Whenever one of you calls Link a low tier it triggers me

I feel the same with DK.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

You know the argument that was brought up earlier reminds me of a youtube video discussing fight game community toxicity and the types of toxic players in that environment, two in particular.
The first believes that tiers are god and that matchups are more or less predetermined by the characters tier placement either discounting or ignoring player responsibility altogether.
The second is the polar opposite and probably where cries of 'try hard' are coming from in FG mode. The second believes that any MU regardless of how lopsided it is can easily be overcome by player effort.
Now i'm not going to say anyone here expressed any sentiments to the two types above but some of the comments skirt uncomfortably close.