Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Ziodyne 21]

You know seeing how ZSS was a part of winning 2 "Supermajors" and still getting very strong results at all majors/supermajors I am thinking she still is a dang good character despite a rather poor Diddy MU

She won't be one of the top 10 that could possibly be usurped by Marth in the future.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I was going to say the same thing ZSS seems to pop up at all majors and supermajors with very strong results.

 

[Gunla]

Also of note beyond Civil War is the announcement of all of the 2GGC dates (as well as the circuit itself)

This is pretty large news, and all of the listed dates are finalized (December Circuit Finale is TBD). Hopefully this is a sign that some of the issues that occurred last year with dates and major tournaments overlapping are less likely to occur. More cooperation is good.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

You know seeing how ZSS was a part of winning 2 "Supermajors" and still getting very strong results at all majors/supermajors I am thinking she still is a dang good character despite a rather poor Diddy MU

She won't be one of the top 10 that could possibly be usurped by Marth in the future.

On the tier list presented in this topic?

It would have to be Ryu first at the very least.

Just compare his lacklustre results to Marth. He has yet to make a single top 8 appearance at any major. He has a few rare 9th places, that's about it. And even with those he has the weakest results at majors by far out of any of the current top 10 (the rest have all had multiple top 8 appearances at the most stacked events).

He's a character that often causes upsets (DarkShad at UGC, Locus at 2GGT) but doesn't actually come close to winning anything unlike the other top 10.

And no Nairo, using him for two games (in a set he lost and got 2 stocked) does not count as Ryu making top 8.

Whereas Marth's results just keep getting better. At UGC it was Mr.E getting 5th with solo Marth, at 2GGT it's now Leo who's won one of the most stacked events of the year going mostly Marth.

I'll be shocked if Marth doesn't sky rocket on the next tier list and Ryu doesn't fall.

 

[UberMadman]

You know, as brief as it was, I'd like to just say that I'm happy that Tweek busted out the Bowser Jr. today and showed that this character still has some tricks up his sleeve. I can agree with the sentiment that he's a low tier, but he has some matchups that he can still shine in due to his scary advantage state. Personal highlight of the tournament for me!

 

[|RK|]

Supermajors:
Majors:

Going by Das Koopa's list

I want to make the obvious note that this directly correlates to players. That is, outside of Cloud, Sonic, and Mario, every one of these characters has exactly one person that has made it that far with that character.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ryu has the same problem Samus has with using his projectile. It's @#$ 58 frames cooldown. This is stupid. Like really stupid.
Are you listening Nintendo? Ryu is supposed to use Fireballs to make people JUMP then you Dragon Punch them. That's the CORE of street fighter.
Can't do that in smash 4. 60 frames. Make it @#$% 45 ok? Nintendo? Capish? This isn't rocket science.
Samus is supposed to use her goddamn missiles. Same problem. 60 frame cooldown = cannot use goddamn missiles. These are worthless moves right now except against the weakest of players. It's such bad design. Drives me nuts.

Holy ****..HOLY ****!!!

YOU UNDERSTAND!!!!!!!

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I still don't know if Marth is better than Rosalina.

But he's definitely better than Cloud so whoever said Marth would eventually turn out to be top 10 was spot-on

 

[Fenny]

So I learned today how stupid needlecamping is

Hadn't been truly needlecamped until today

On FD and Omega stages approaching Shiek is virtually impossible unless your name is Mewtwo or something

 

[outfoxd]

Not particularly insightful but i had the displeasure of being Leo's round 2 at a small weekly last week onstream against his Marth. I didn't know Marth could be so suffocating, as someone that started using him a couple months ago.

Literally every time i was thrown I was paralyzed because he'd follow you and you just knew he'd hit you again and keep doing it.

It was hellish.

 

[meleebrawler]

Ryu has the same problem Samus has with using his projectile. It's @#$ 58 frames cooldown. This is stupid. Like really stupid.
Are you listening Nintendo? Ryu is supposed to use Fireballs to make people JUMP then you Dragon Punch them. That's the CORE of street fighter.
Can't do that in smash 4. 60 frames. Make it @#$% 45 ok? Nintendo? Capish? This isn't rocket science.
Samus is supposed to use her goddamn missiles. Same problem. 60 frame cooldown = cannot use goddamn missiles. These are worthless moves right now except against the weakest of players. It's such bad design. Drives me nuts.

You're dreaming if you think Smash missiles will ever resemble Metroid's "fire as as fast as you can mash b" variety. Even the games that impose some degree of a firecap are still of a ridiculous speed.

There's also a bit of inventory clash in that if missiles were too good, you'd almost never be able to hit anyone with a Charge Shot because they're too accustomed to blocking the former.

Edit: Actually, scratch that. It would make shield breaking laughably easy (we even saw this when they nerfed the super missile -> charge shot on shield combo, and she's STILL arguably the best shield breaker in the game. Only Ryu's Collarbone Breaker comes close).

 

[HoSmash4]

I still don't know if Marth is better than Rosalina.

But he's definitely better than Cloud so whoever said Marth would eventually turn out to be top 10 was spot-on

 

[Luigi player]

Do you agree? Hard to tell (or were you the one who said it?).

I agree with him that it's still unsure if Marth should be over Rosa (I still see her as 10th and Marth as 11th atm). He's definitely closing in on the top 10 and could very well be part of it at this point, but I don't think Cloud would be the one who gets kicked out... if one, I'd say Rosa.

I still see top tier as 10 characters, but I guess you could include Marth to have a "top 11", but that number isn't as clean, so I just can't do it!

 

[Goombo]

I still don't know if Marth is better than Rosalina.

But he's definitely better than Cloud so whoever said Marth would eventually turn out to be top 10 was spot-on

Oh, I knew you were just waiting for the right moment to drop the "Cloud isn't Top 10" again. :3

I'm counting myself definitely on the more Cloud-pessimistic side, but I can't realistically see him drop out of top 10 in the near future, especially with Komo taking two consecutive sets of Void and the Bayo matchup not looking quite as hopeless in recent history.


Now let's talk about our favorite space girl.

You mean the character that has two representatives in the top 16 for this tournament?

Yeah, two representatives in Top 16, neither of them won a set.They went out the same way Rosalinas most of the time go out of tournaments: Due to her bad matchups you will likely face at some point in a stacked bracket.
Meanwhile Marth quite literally powered through half of Smash 4s top tier and made non of them look worse than a 45:55.


And since we're on it, here comes a question:

When was the last time Rosalina actually won a set in a top 16 of a major? Any ideas?

Spoiler

It was at Big House 6, in the beginning of october.

Spoiler

Sadly it was the only one at that tournament and two of the three won games came from Olimar. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Even if it sounds a bit like it, I'm really not trying to hate on a character (I mean, why should I?), but I'm just not seeing how she qualifies for this games top 10 with her lackluster results and a problematic matchup spread.
Ever since the last new DLC characters got released, swordfighters got buffed and people started figuring out the matchup it looks like it's just going down with Rosalina & Luma.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Marth is better than Cloud though.

Both of the two main objectives in smash -removing opponents' stocks and perserving your own- Marth has an easier time fulfilling. He does not get gimped and deals with shields better. These are all-encompassing factors and there's no making up for that. He's better than Cloud.

Oh, I knew you were just waiting for the right moment to drop the "Cloud isn't Top 10" again. :3

Eh, Cloud could still very well be top 10 alongside Marth and some other character previously assumed top 10 would drop out of there. That's why I didn't explicitly say that Cloud's not top 10. Matter of fact, I was one of the first to call him top 10 when he was released and I don't change my mind that easily.

But you can't ignore results. And Zero saga must have been like the 10th major tournament or so this year where Cloud was amazing as a secondary but failed to break into top 8 as a solo character. At a certain point you have to accept that there's a consistent pattern. It's not coincidene. And it's not a matter of rep either. If you have Komorikiri and Tweek as Cloud mains you already have a stronger national-level rep than Fox or Sonic right now. And yet the vast majority of placings he gets come from people that use him as a secondary or tertiary character - Leo, Anti, Mr r, you name it.

 

[Luco]

Wanna quickly say, FOW got 17th losing to ZeRo - which is *more* than acceptable - and Fatality who FOW has had problems with in the past (and was a 3-2 set regardless which is closer than last time iirc?). FOW still ran through K9 (who I assume was playing Sheik? If so that's pretty big) and Zack who was a 1st seed in his pool and is definitely notable.

I think with better seeding FOW will be taking names again.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think the 10 characters posted by Das Koopa who had won both majors and supermajors are pretty solidly the 10 most relevant in the roster right now.

You can debate the order all you like, but I'd argue all 10 of those characters put in work at most levels, whether it be through primary or secondary usage. It's pretty clear that those are the DEFINING 10 characters of the meta right now. They're the most common, they're everywhere. I would say that is a good look into what the Top 10 of this game looks like logistically, if you wanted to crunch only numbers.

For the record it's entirely possible and even logistically likely that Marth is a stronger character than Cloud, though it's not really highly relevant nor drastically important considering they're both pretty incredible. They fulfill fairly different niches, their only similarities I can wager are that they have swords and can end lives at very low % in given situations.

On that note I think we should remove the rigidity in our classification of Top 10. I don't think any more than 2, at most 3 characters in this game can win an entire tournament on their own. (The 2-3 in my mind are Diddy, Sheik, and potentially Bayonetta.) That's not to say these 2-3 don't have more difficult matchups, but I do believe they have the highest opportunity to do it on their lonesome. Everyone else usually demands some form of coverage.

 

[Trunks159]

I'd add Mario and to a lesser extent Fox to that list of char that can win majors on their own.

 

[ARISTOS]

I think the 10 characters posted by Das Koopa who had won both majors and supermajors are pretty solidly the 10 most relevant in the roster right now.

You can debate the order all you like, but I'd argue all 10 of those characters put in work at most levels, whether it be through primary or secondary usage. It's pretty clear that those are the DEFINING 10 characters of the meta right now. They're the most common, they're everywhere. I would say that is a good look into what the Top 10 of this game looks like logistically, if you wanted to crunch only numbers.

For the record it's entirely possible and even logistically likely that Marth is a stronger character than Cloud, though it's not really highly relevant nor drastically important considering they're both pretty incredible. They fulfill fairly different niches, their only similarities I can wager are that they have swords and can end lives at very low % in given situations.

On that note I think we should remove the rigidity in our classification of Top 10. I don't think any more than 2, at most 3 characters in this game can win an entire tournament on their own. (The 2-3 in my mind are Diddy, Sheik, and potentially Bayonetta.) That's not to say these 2-3 don't have more difficult matchups, but I do believe they have the highest opportunity to do it on their lonesome. Everyone else usually demands some form of coverage.

I'd agree with this.

In my mind there are about 10-11 metagame defining characters and essentially set the terms for the rest of the cast.

Furthermore, you have , , , and , who all appear with regularity in high tournament positions as long as their mains are present. This rounds out top 15.

all follow the above, all having done something throughout the year, though with a noted inconsistency. You could likely break the above into two groups, though I'm not quite ready to make my mind up yet.

Finally, there are dark horse candidates in .

 

[Illusion.]

might end up being the one who falls out of top 10. Nobody, even Dabuz, has ever won a major with her. She places rather well with often top 16s, but just doesn't win. It doesn't help that she struggles a bit against swordies, especially , and MKLeo made the MU still look miserable.

Thoughts?

 

[bc1910]

On that note I think we should remove the rigidity in our classification of Top 10. I don't think any more than 2, at most 3 characters in this game can win an entire tournament on their own. (The 2-3 in my mind are Diddy, Sheik, and potentially Bayonetta.) That's not to say these 2-3 don't have more difficult matchups, but I do believe they have the highest opportunity to do it on their lonesome. Everyone else usually demands some form of coverage.

It's extremely difficult for Sheik to win national-level tournaments on her own. The 1.1.5 nerfs did make a difference. At top level she demands near-perfect play against a decent handful of top tiers. Sheik has not solo'd a major or supermajor in 2016, she hasn't even won one since January, and ZeRo backed her up with Diddy.

Solo-ing is doable with Diddy, though he has a few MUs he appreciates a secondary for.

I think Sonic is better placed to solo a national than Sheik, but his playerbase is weaker. Same goes for Bayo on paper. Though I don't think her playerbase is necessarily weaker, she's just undergoing a transitional phase at the moment. There's also Mario, who's done it in practice.

 

[DungeonMaster]

You're dreaming if you think Smash missiles will ever resemble Metroid's "fire as as fast as you can mash b" variety. Even the games that impose some degree of a firecap are still of a ridiculous speed.
Edit: Actually, scratch that. It would make shield breaking laughably easy (we even saw this when they nerfed the super missile -> charge shot on shield combo, and she's STILL arguably the best shield breaker in the game. Only Ryu's Collarbone Breaker comes close).

I never said actual metroid speed. I just want 45 frame cooldown missiles and hadouken. Neither of these will break the game - this would be the same statistics as greeninja's water shuriken and many other projectiles.

There are characters - villager, duck hunt, with actual neutral game TRAPS, the stats on their projectiles allow them to rush in while under projectile cover. Neither of these characters are tournament or basic play dominant.
Held items like banana are full blown un-reactable with virtually no cooldown.

A 45 frame regular missile and/or hadouken would not produce a true trap, not against the variety of movement options that say a sheik has. It would be a partial trap, something that would allow these characters to force options at particular neutral game distances.
Like jump or roll or failed power shield so that we can punish with the damn charge shot or dragon punch.
Right now, these moves are useless beyond a low level on FG. The extremes are too extreme right now.

Holy ****..HOLY ****!!!
YOU UNDERSTAND!!!!!!!

Now if only we could get Nintendo or the Sak to understand... keep up the good fight brother.

 

[|RK|]

Honestly, I think every character only "wins majors by themselves" with bracket luck at this point. I can't be the only one to see that even wins can show really bad matchups. Diddy and Mario are the biggest examples of this - ZeRo and Ally are usually just far better players than their opponents. So they clutch out wins because of that. But watching the tournament, you can see the cracks in the armor for both characters.

Marth is starting to look like one pain point - I know Ally feels like Marth destroys Mario, and ZeRo has believed that Marcina beat Diddy for a while now. A player at the level of ZeRo - in this case Leo (potentially, but he made a very good case for it) - would naturally be one of the few to show it. Of course, Mr. E usually makes ZeRo sweat, and he isn't even on that level yet.

In either case, I don't think *any* character looks solo viable. Not with the right opposing character and the right opponent. As more characters are considered viable counterpicks and more top players start using them, I think this will be reinforced over the next year.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Nobody, even Dabuz, has ever won a major with her.

Depends on what we count Apex 2016 as. If we count it as a major, then yes Rosa has 1 win, if not then no.

I think if someone is going to usurped by Marth either now or in the future it's going to be ZSS or Rosa. That doesn't mean that they wouldn't be top tier though. It's entirely possible for top tier to expand past 10 characters, as much as people might not like to admit it because 11 just isn't a round number like 10 is.

It's extremely difficult for Sheik to win national-level tournaments on her own. At top level she demands near-perfect play against a decent handful of top tiers. To my knowledge, she has not solo'd a national since 1.1.6. I could be wrong - but if she has solo'd a national, she's done it far less frequently than pre-patch. The nerfs did hurt, and tournament fatigue is a real thing for Sheik.

It's doable with Diddy, though even he has a few MUs he appreciates a secondary for.

I think Sonic is better placed to solo a national than Sheik, but his playerbase is weaker. Same goes for Bayo on paper. Though I don't think her playerbase is necessarily weaker, she's just undergoing a transitional phase at the moment.

VoiD and Mr. R constantly get top 8, and it's not uncommon for one of them to make at least top 4. VoiD got 3rd at ZeRo Saga last night, a higher placing than ZeRo. I think Sheik definitely has what it takes to win a major or a super major, it just hasn't happened yet. It's a little hard to do when tournaments are dominated by ZeRo. If VoiD hadn't lost to Leo in losers, I think he could have taken the tournament.

 

[TTTTTsd]

On the note of 45f cooldown fireballs, it would benefit missiles far more than Hadouken.

Hadouken is a straight, EASILY DESTROYABLE (it's really, really ****ing bad about this) variable speed fireball that would still not be good even if it did have 45f of recovery solely because it loses to legitimately every attack but also because it forces a high approach in a game where those aren't uncomfortable to most good characters. Street Fighter fireballs do not account for fadeback and aerial mobility, at least Samus missiles home in and would in theory force you to deal with whatever angle they take towards you if they had lower cooldown. Forcing a jump via Hadouken in this game is far weaker than it will ever be in Street Fighter solely because of Smash fundamentals. Water Shuriken is attached to a VERY FAST character with incredible mobility and it's also a multihit fireball that isn't easy to destroy (from my recollection). If you think of mobility on Gren Water Shuriken as paramount to what makes it good as a low cooldown fireball, I would equate homing on Samus missiles to being a good attribute if it had low cooldown. What would Hadouken have to offer? Additionally Ryu is also locked into only having one Hadouken on the stage at a time, which is really unfortunate.

To actually make Hadouken passable (not even that good, just decent) you'd have to lower the cooldown to a FAF of like 46-48 and make it transcendent. Lowering cooldown on it alone as it stands it would just be a fast projectile that still loses to everything. Even then I don't even think it'd be that good outside of Shakunetsu, to be honest, and that's a maybe too. His fireball is just too plain for this game.

 

[Funbot28]

Spoiler

This is how I see it so far. Larry has proven it through his run yesterday that Fox is a character that can really solo run through a tournament. I was hesitant to put Mario at the top due to the fact that swordies really hurt him a lot. I know Rosalina may seem too low, but really the Cloud and MK MU's are too much for her and is why Dabuz always has to go to Olimar at times.

Also Marth top 10 lol?

K idk why image is not uploading, will try and fix

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Is solo-viability even a relevant factor in competitive smash 4? In a game where it's not only unclear who the best character is but where, as it seems to be the case, even the best characters have at least one slightly losing matchup? Solo-viability just seems something that's naturally limited in smash 4 so I wouldn't place too much emphasis on it.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Honestly, I think every character only "wins majors by themselves" with bracket luck at this point. I can't be the only one to see that even wins can show really bad matchups. Diddy and Mario are the biggest examples of this - ZeRo and Ally are usually just far better players than their opponents. So they clutch out wins because of that. But watching the tournament, you can see the cracks in the armor for both characters.

Marth is starting to look like one pain point - I know Ally feels like Marth destroys Mario, and ZeRo has believed that Marcina beat Diddy for a while now. A player at the level of ZeRo - in this case Leo (potentially, but he made a very good case for it) - would naturally be one of the few to show it. Of course, Mr. E usually makes ZeRo sweat, and he isn't even on that level yet.

In either case, I don't think *any* character looks solo viable. Not with the right opposing character and the right opponent. As more characters are considered viable counterpicks and more top players start using them, I think this will be reinforced over the next year.

You think we will hit a point where the game is super counterpick heavy due to the balance of the game?

 

[Jamurai]

I think the 10 characters posted by Das Koopa who had won both majors and supermajors are pretty solidly the 10 most relevant in the roster right now.

You can debate the order all you like, but I'd argue all 10 of those characters put in work at most levels, whether it be through primary or secondary usage. It's pretty clear that those are the DEFINING 10 characters of the meta right now. They're the most common, they're everywhere. I would say that is a good look into what the Top 10 of this game looks like logistically, if you wanted to crunch only numbers.

For the record it's entirely possible and even logistically likely that Marth is a stronger character than Cloud, though it's not really highly relevant nor drastically important considering they're both pretty incredible. They fulfill fairly different niches, their only similarities I can wager are that they have swords and can end lives at very low % in given situations.

On that note I think we should remove the rigidity in our classification of Top 10. I don't think any more than 2, at most 3 characters in this game can win an entire tournament on their own. (The 2-3 in my mind are Diddy, Sheik, and potentially Bayonetta.) That's not to say these 2-3 don't have more difficult matchups, but I do believe they have the highest opportunity to do it on their lonesome. Everyone else usually demands some form of coverage.

over ?

Marth I can definitely see. Leo has proven both he the player and he the character has what it takes to win a supermajor. His matchup spread is better than those three and he is just a more solid and well-rounded character overall.

MK I see less so. I think his matchup spread is on a similar level to Rosa or Fox, but at top level his much more limited neutral game makes it hard for him to shine like Marth (and Rosa and Fox) can. Most of his matchups against top- or high-tier characters are stressful (although not necessarily bad) because of this. He has solid results overall but his main users rarely have breakout performances. Nevertheless I don't think it's out of the question, I hadn't seriously considered that MK could be top 10 lol.

The phrase "top #" is usually arbitrary and meaningless, but top 10 in this game is actually a prestigious thing because of where the cutoff is in terms of metagame relevance.

.

Fox is weird because he's clearly such a good character when in the hands of a good and confident player, don't forget Larry came 2nd at this same breakout tournament for Marth. But he's SO unforgiving, especially in matchups like Bayo and Sheik, and even against overall lacklustre characters like Luigi, Kirby and Dr Mario because of his ridiculous lightness, combo weight, and exploitable recovery.

 

[wedl!!]

Is solo-viability even a relevant factor in competitive smash 4? In a game where it's not only unclear who the best character is but where, as it seems to be the case, even the best characters have at least one slightly losing matchup? Solo-viability just seems something that's naturally limited in smash 4 so I wouldn't place too much emphasis on it.

Plus, the roster is so bloated and the playerbase is so big that you're guaranteed to come across a smorgisboard of different matchups. Like several have stated before me, character picking is a skill.

If you don't have a secondary for even one tricky matchup, you're intentionally crippling yourself. I don't even mean that in a "ratios matter!!!" sense, I mean mentally. Trying to overcome 50+ unique matchups with the same tools becomes taxing quickly. Having different things to overcome all obstacles is far easier than mastery of one single character.

 

[Deleted member]

I wouldn't necessarily call "lackluster". Character comfortably sits in the upper parts of mid tier= even if he's held back by some real bad MUs among the most relevant characters (to the max)

Though, in other news:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Looks like we'll be seeing another notable Shulk getting out more. Darkwolf's aggressive play is some of the most impressive of any Shulk player, so I wonder how the US will react to it.

 

[|RK|]

You think we will hit a point where the game is super counterpick heavy due to the balance of the game?

Couldn't tell you. Many players - especially ZeRo and Ally - are completely willing to just grind out their worse MUs.

For those that do choose counterpicks... they still need to work on the bad MUs for their main and their secondary, though - otherwise you're just leaving yourself open to another counterpick. That's something I saw that hurt both ANTi and Kameme this weekend. They messed up their counterpicking trees, and since they couldn't do the next MU with their counterpicking or main, they lost. This style of counterpicking every bad MU usually only works out well if you're facing a loyalist... so it makes sense that when they get together (Nairo vs ANTi & ANTi vs Kameme) it kinda falls apart.

 

[Deleted member]

Ew, the DK bashing a few pages back makes me sick... I seriously hope he doesn't get left behind and forgotten like PAC-MAN. Bowser and Charizard are overrated, if you ask me.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Looks like we'll be seeing another notable Shulk getting out more. Darkwolf's aggressive play is some of the most impressive of any Shulk player, so I wonder how the US will react to it.

It's nice to see another Shulk. The Monado Boy is really good for a low tier what with those Monado Art advantage switch ups and deadly counters (I always lose to a Shulk, so I should know). Can't wait to see what Darkwolf has to show the US.

 

[MushroomKiller]

Quick thoughts browsing through the last few pages:

Imo, people are really crapping on and results this tourney. Not a single mention of FOW's 17th placing (except Luco's) and an argument spanning two pages whether or not is top 20.

Can we just take the time to recognize just how far FOW and Fatality have brought supposed mid-tier garbage characters (especially in the case of ) in a SUPERMAJOR, which had like... 367 attendees? Which is a lot? And which getting 13th and 17th for is far more respectable placings than, say, a 13th at your local 60-man tourney, or 25th at a major with attendee numbers that were a third of this saga's? (looking at you, )

And by the way, before all of you jump on me: No, I do not think either of or are in the upper echelons of high tier (probably skating near the bottom of it); and yes, I still believe to be a superior character to . But at this point the ninja frog's just a huge bag of potential with no strong, decisive placings to lead me to believe she's (yes, she, have you seen those hips?) so much better than as some of you proclaim.

Either way, mad props to Fatality and FOW, and of course to MK Leo for proving all those naysayers wrong.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

FOW hasn't been to very many tournaments this year so I can see why people think Ness is some run of the mill mid-tier people haven't seen him a whole lot and when they have it's not been good.

I'm just glad he's back, 3-0'ing a top level Shiek emphatically one of Ness' worse MUs and a top level Bayo (Which I've always thought Ness-Bayo was more even than anything) was great. If he was seeded better I think FOW could had gone deeper. We will see how well he can keep it up at G4.

 

[my_T]

FOW's consistent success against notable bayo's is nice.

Other than JK I wasn't impressed. Everybody else he beat in his bracket was expected because FOW is just that good.

 

[blackghost]

ness bayo and lucas bayo must be 50 50.
the psychic boys have kill throws, zoning, and high air speed. three qualties to fighting bayo.
also lucas in particular can zone her for free.
but bayo definitely is having problems at high level. salem, pink, saj, and zach are all having trouble breaking into top 10 placings.
ps glad zero lost like that it was poetic.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I crap on CF because he beats no one relevant and hasn't done a damn thing to shape or effect the meta.

 

[Ethan7]

Don't Park on the Grass
(201 entrants)
1st, DKwill
2nd, Konga
3rd, Exodia
4th, MVD
5th, Big D ()
5th, Captain L
7th, Looke
7th, Len
9th, Shinkou()
9th, Esam
9th, Deci
9th, FoCus
13th, Espon CH
13th, Panarian
13th, Masai
13th, RCS JR

Not sure why this isn't posted here, but two Donkey Kongs made 1st and 2nd.

 

[Fenny]

ness bayo and lucas bayo must be 50 50.
the psychic boys have kill throws, zoning, and high air speed. three qualties to fighting bayo.
also lucas in particular can zone her for free.
but bayo definitely is having problems at high level. salem, pink, saj, and zach are all having trouble breaking into top 10 placings.
ps glad zero lost like that it was poetic.

Five notable Bayos and not one made it into top 16...

Would be an understatement if I said that I was triggered right until I went to sleep

At least Marth won a supermajor, which made me a bit happier