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Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

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~ Gheb ~

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Duck Hunt the stage does not "invalidate half of the cast". People are getting upset over a situation that had nothing to do w/ the character that Ally played.
Not joining the whole "Duck Hunt should be banned because it's too easy to time people out"-argument ...

But why do you think what happened has nothing to do with Ally's character choice? Mario is notoriously prone to getting stalled out with this type of camping. As good as Mario is at pressuring low platforms, he simply doesn't have the jump height or the aerial options to counter camping in the air or on high platforms. What should he do against it, in your opinion? His jumps aren't very high, his uair doesn't do much / doesn't reach high and the risk/reward of just throwing out a YOLO up B is literally never worth it. So as much as I dislike the whole argument on banning the stage there's no denying that it was a major factor that decided the outcome of the set.

If anything though, Ramin deserves praise for not letting foolish things like "honor" or "pride" - things that have no value in competitive play - cloud his judgment on doing what's best to win the set. As the result of the set proves, trying to time Mario out on Duck Hunt was the right decision. Respect for Ally though for not blaming it on the stage but himself - there's a reason why these people are at the top. It's all in the head, man. He should still consider banning the stage in the future. Either that or picking up Sonic to deal with it.

:059:
 

Nidtendofreak

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I think UCT was banned because of some people getting motion sickness from it.
This. Even with a different platform layout it would still be banned because of it. We don't allow stages that some people can't play due to physical limitations. Stage would need a rather significant redesign completely to be legal.

And while I won't dive completely back into the previous discussion (finals week, yaaaaaaaaay >_>):

1) Great Cave Offensive has circle camping. I specifically said multiple times circle camping is auto-banned. Duck Hunt =/= circle camping

2) Pokefloats had other issues like falling through certain parts of the stage. Which Duck Hunt does not have.

3) With that "ZSS running away on Duck Hunt" list, I can tell you Ike would probably be able to catch up. Barely, but he would be able to, Quick Draw with its auto-canceling range helps a lot, along with the large range on his attacks. Roy probably would be able to as well. The list of characters truly screwed and having no hope against camping on Duck Hunt is rather tiny. And as already pointed out, Ally did it to himself. He screwed up, he admitted as much. That's somebody who recognizes not to blame a stage for their own (lack of in this case) actions.

People get too whiny about "not competitive" when really it frequently boils down to "my character can't deal with it"/"I personally don't like it so I'm going to label it not competitive". If it was as bad as people are making it out to be, Sonic would auto-win every time he went to this stage (like he would on say, Great Cave Offensive). That is clearly not the case, so its clearly not that bad. Smashville's platform still dictates far more matches than Duck Hunt's tree does, which was the main point I was getting at previously. It gives people more combos, more camping options, more safe landing options: all things that aren't always there like on say Battlefield with its static platforms.

And if you want to get really technical, its random balloon has cost people games before.

---

For the eSports people: you're forgetting that you also need stage variety to keep people interested. You narrow down the stage list too much I don't care how "fair" and "more competitive" it is: you will have a smaller audience over time specifically because of the lack of stage variety.
 

Rizen

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People get too whiny about "not competitive" when really it frequently boils down to "my character can't deal with it"/"I personally don't like it so I'm going to label it not competitive".
This is the kind of talk that... ugh. I don't want to derail or spam the thread so that's all I'll say.

Edit, I finally found it. To the defenders of DH, watch this (2:18 on):
https://youtu.be/h3r6WIttuzg?t=138
 
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Yikarur

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It's laughable how people think for some reason that competition has to be 100% skill.
Thats a Smash sickness I've observed among Smashers that don't really understand competitive philosophy in games and real life.
Luck is always involved in some way. You as a player are just in a position to manage all those probabilities.
"Luck" scenarios might be player interaction. Did you pick the right option? Did your opponent countered the option you've used? Do you play as conservative as possible to swing those scenarios in your favor but with less reward?
All these scenarios are technically probability management and if someone says there is no skill involved in the ducks on duck hunt I can just say that you are clouded by the skill fallacy I mentioned before.

Timing Out on Duck Hunt is rarely a valid strategy. The main thing people can do is buy some time in case the game is slow paced. But camping in a way so that it's degenerating is hardly possible. The design of the left tree (multiple height plattforms) makes counterplay very possible thus playing solely on timeout doesn't work.
If your character really struggles on that stage you shouldn't pick that character to begin with. It's the same as picking DK vs. Dedede in Brawl.
Other stages have similar problems in other forms. I'd still rather get rid of Smashville heh
 
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|RK|

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It's laughable how people think for some reason that competition has to be 100% skill.
Thats a Smash sickness I've observed among Smashers that don't really understand competitive philosophy in games and real life.
Luck is always involved in some way. You as a player are just in a position to manage all those probabilities.
"Luck" scenarios might be player interaction. Did you pick the right option? Did your opponent countered the option you've used? Do you play as conservative as possible to swing those scenarios in your favor but with less reward?
This is exactly why we ban stages though. To make the game as skill-based as possible. This is also how other sports work. It won't be perfect, but you aim for it.

Also... no. That's not luck at all. There's nothing random about the buttons you press. True competitive philosophy says that you choose options in a way that you're not guessing. You increase the chances of your opponent acting in the way you want.

This is the kind of talk that... ugh. I don't want to derail or spam the thread so that's all I'll say.

Edit, I finally found it. To the defenders of DH, watch this (2:18 on):
https://youtu.be/h3r6WIttuzg?t=138
All of those throws towards the stage hurt me so much. Not doing upthrow on the tree hurt me. Repeated chasing hurt me. This is a good example, but Xanzy's play was more disappointing to me lmao
 

Fenny

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Happy to know my lag cancelling post in the Bayo board helped give this tech better exposure. Badr found out she could do this a long time ago but it didnt really look like it got the attention it should have.

Really can't wait for mains to start utilising it
 

Rizen

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Happy to know my lag cancelling post in the Bayo board helped give this tech better exposure. Badr found out she could do this a long time ago but it didnt really look like it got the attention it should have.

Really can't wait for mains to start utilising it
Oh geeze, Bayonetta's the freaking Macavity of smash; she's broken every human law, she breaks the lawr of gravity.
 

SaltyKracka

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Happy to know my lag cancelling post in the Bayo board helped give this tech better exposure. Badr found out she could do this a long time ago but it didnt really look like it got the attention it should have.

Really can't wait for mains to start utilising it
...You know, I feel like there's a lot I want to say about this, but the only thing that comes to mind is that this is yet more proof that Bayo is terribly designed.
 

Scarlet Jile

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Happy to know my lag cancelling post in the Bayo board helped give this tech better exposure. Badr found out she could do this a long time ago but it didnt really look like it got the attention it should have.

Really can't wait for mains to start utilising it
Ganondorf actually has a similar thing with side-B out of the fair landing lag.
 

Nah

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DH tree camping is just really one player making use of the other player's character's flaws (in this case ****ty mobility and/or poor platform pressure) in another fashion, cuz last I checked, that's how one wins matches (at least in part), by exploiting the flaws in the other player and/or their character.

Really tho I love how they gave Bayo that whole thing where the landing lag on her specials stack but then there's this tech where you can basically nullify that lol
 

Luigi player

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To me it looked like Ally didn't notice the time, since he didn't go ham at the end when he was about to lose, which he should do and I'm sure he would have. Try going for grab -> fair, or just jump off and fair to chase him. Or even just trying to get a fsmash-read. Just in case he would've gotten him. Can't hurt to try when you for sure lose otherwise anyway. He also gave up when he noticed it since it was already over. And he was playing really careful up until the end and it seemed like he wanted Mr R to approach as well, instead of trying to appraoch himself, which he could've at least done defensively.

That being said, the tree constellation is pretty bad - and to a certain extent circle camping is possible. Characters like Sheik, ZSS and Diddy with their bouncing fish and variants could jump from tree to tree back and forth, or go low if they need to. Sonic can do the same with his spinshot and some others might also have the tools to do something like that (Jigglypuff).

I've tried to test this strategy with someone a long time ago and it can be really tough to catch someone doing this. Even if you manage to do so it grants them enough extra seconds to promote the timeout well enough.
Not to mention the very scary fact that many characters, if they're standing on the tall tree could combo and KO you off the top at any or most % if they manage to catch you not spacing absolutely perfect on their shield. It's a very scary thing to follow anyone up the tree.
Samus can upB and catch anyone trying to jump at her. You can fake it out but if you never approach you don't really gain anything. Going up the tree to a different branch is also pretty risky since you aren't save while doing so. In tourney a MK camped my Luigi out after getting a stocklead by being on the tree, but I was able to read his jumps after a while and rising-tornado-killed him off the top. Lucky for me, he probably didn't expect this at all, but overall the situation is very much in the favor of the one who could get easy KOs off the top if you don't space everything and play super super save, in which case you basically have to hope you're scaring them to shield and wait for their shield to shrink enough to the point you can jump up again and they have to retreat somehow, which can still be a scary situation.

The stage isn't just ducks and dog who can interrupt the fight, the stage is basically made for camping and timing out with the trees and its size. Not only is the stage longer than FD (actually, I can't find data about that right now - I think it's the case but not 100 % sure on it), the blastzone is also further away from the edges, even if it doesn't look like it.


Just being able to ban the stage isn't too great of a reason to keep it allowed, imo. The reason being you basically have to ban TaC every set unless you play a character who can jank there, or you aren't playing against a player who plays any of the characters who can jank there.

Bayonetta, ZSS, MK and even Samus (maybe others as well) can get their cheese going on that stage for free, and there are still some "hoo-ha"s that benefit greatly from it. I always feel like the stage would benefit me too, since my characters mostly KO off the top, but it's not worth the risk KOing a few % earlier when the opponent can instantly KO me if he manages to hit me at some percent ranges that allow him to combo off the top.

Everyone should've seen the famous Nairo grab to KO combos on Mr R enough times to know that you absolutely have to ban the stage against ZSS. I mean, you can play with fire if you like to, but you could be burned too. It's basically ICs all over again, but without ZSS having a hindering Nana that you could gimp or hit away, and with her long ranged zair being able to combo into grabs (which lead to uair and upB strings).
It is way too risky to go to that stage against these characters unless you're trying to cheese them yourself. Besides DSR, and not having another stage you like still able to be picked in a bo5 set it feels like cheesing someone off the top is the only reason this stage is picked lately. If it wasn't for that lower ceiling the stage would be fine and much better, even if still flawed in some ways (not saying other stages don't have any flaws), but sadly we have to deal with this stuff.

Basically if you don't want to get camped out to hell by some characters you should ban Duck Hunt.
And if you don't want to get cheesed by some characters you have to ban TaC.

Some characters can do their stuff on both stages, and players could also use both of these character types to get one thing or another, depending on your ban.


I do think Duck Hunt has its positives. Being a long stage can benefit some characters, giving them more room, etc. But it really often feels like it's just there to time someone out, which it does help at. Of course it's smart of the players trying to do it, but it's a little degenerative if you ask me, and timeoutstuff, while sadly being an option (because otherwise matches and tournaments could take forever) is not healthy (I've tried to explain this further, but that is just too big of a topic so I just deleted everything again, I'm sure everyone can understand how it is not a good thing and it should be avoided if possible).

Of course some characters are better at forcing someone off the tree and stuff, but reducing character usage by characters who can't safely pressure someone on the tree, just to have a stage where characters can get timeouts easier and is mostly picked for that is not a good tradeoff imo.


Btw, while I do think it is better for the game if DH is banned, it's not like I absolutely hate it and I can see the good sides of it. The reason why I don't think it's good is just that it's supporting timeouts too much (with possible circle camping and immense advantages up on the tree (one correct read and you can get a stock)). And people will go for them since it helps them winning, obviously.

Though I have to admit, I came to like / appreciate the stage more over the recent time. In Austria we almost always have it banned, but in a bo5 set with 2 bans (1 per player) and DSR the stage choice can feel pretty limited.
 
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FeelMeUp

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I really don't think DH and Lylat would be so much of a problem if people would just try out 2 bans no DSR for a decent period of time :/
 

Mr. Johan

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It would be fine if Bayonetta could only do this out of Dair from that great a height, but no, her specifically-coded-to-continue-perpetually Nair and Bair can allow this too. Keep in mind she doesn't have to Heel Slide into you, she could just bail with it in the other direction if she could get punished.

Between this and her Witch Time staling disappearing over time unlike Shulk's Vision, it's becoming clearer that Bayo was simply just rushed out the gate.
 

BSP

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I've tried to test this strategy with someone a long time ago and it can be really tough to catch someone doing this. Even if you manage to do so it grants them enough extra seconds to promote the timeout well enough.
Not to mention the very scary fact that many characters, if they're standing on the tall tree could combo and KO you off the top at any or most % if they manage to catch you not spacing absolutely perfect on their shield. It's a very scary thing to follow anyone up the tree.
Samus can upB and catch anyone trying to jump at her. You can fake it out but if you never approach you don't really gain anything. Going up the tree to a different branch is also pretty risky since you aren't save while doing so. In tourney a MK camped my Luigi out after getting a stocklead by being on the tree, but I was able to read his jumps after a while and rising-tornado-killed him off the top. Lucky for me, he probably didn't expect this at all, but overall the situation is very much in the favor of the one who could get easy KOs off the top if you don't space everything and play super super save, in which case you basically have to hope you're scaring them to shield and wait for their shield to shrink enough to the point you can jump up again and they have to retreat somehow, which can still be a scary situation.

The stage isn't just ducks and dog who can interrupt the fight, the stage is basically made for camping and timing out with the trees and its size. Not only is the stage longer than FD (actually, I can't find data about that right now - I think it's the case but not 100 % sure on it), the blastzone is also further away from the edges, even if it doesn't look like it.
This made me think of vertical walkoff camping. The comparison isn't 100% because obviously you can't get right next to the upper blastzone on DH by using the tree, but the situation you described made me think about walk offs. Actually, it might be even worse depending on your character because the camper can shield while you approach but you can't.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we ban walkoffs not because of "brokeness" but because how much they skew risk : reward right? I wouldn't be surprised if DH gets the ax in the future if more people have the guts to use the tree.
 

Anyparxia

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Did you know that Falco's Nair could be frame cancelled after short hopping and immediately inputting Nair ? It can lead into several things, like Nairs chains or even a Dair (sadly too weak at the percent range it would connect, and the combos may not be as efficient depending on fall speed and DI). To frame cancel the move, from what I remember, you have to fast fall about when the third hit of Nair connects. I stopped playing games until next summer, but there's something that I'd really like to try, so if you want you can try it yourself : basically build a custom stage with walls, making a narrow space between them, place a CPU there and try to just chain as many Nairs as possible.
I dunno how viable this is, if it can make Falco a little bit better, but it's at least pretty fun to do
 

Luigi player

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This made me think of vertical walkoff camping. The comparison isn't 100% because obviously you can't get right next to the upper blastzone on DH by using the tree, but the situation you described made me think about walk offs. Actually, it might be even worse depending on your character because the camper can shield while you approach but you can't.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we ban walkoffs not because of "brokeness" but because how much they skew risk : reward right? I wouldn't be surprised if DH gets the ax in the future if more people have the guts to use the tree.
Interesting (and good) comparison. The risk:reward ratio is probably skewed a lot in the favor of the one camping on the tree, unless that person already has a lot of % in which case they could be KO'd by an uair or something. You also at least see your opponents exact spot and what's going on up there, lol. I don't think it's as bad as walkoff camping, since you can try to space your attacks below their shield (except for Samus?), but the facts that you can't shield at all, and have to jump up multiple times (which also makes it pretty easy to predict when attacks are coming, so they can rest their shield / adjust their positioning while you have to fall back down) are pretty big. Unless you're maybe Cloud or MK you'll have to be super duper careful about attacking someone up there.
 

Fenny

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bayo mains are in for a ruuuuude awakening when smash for switch comes out lmao
I'm already investing extra time in a Marth in the event she gets double whammied

which I somewhat doubt since she's not complained about anywhere near as much as pre-patch
 
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blackghost

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bayo mains are in for a ruuuuude awakening when smash for switch comes out lmao
bayo mains have adapted before and they'll adapt if there are any changes made to her again. her fundamental design like diddy and mk in smash or akuma in street fihgter means she cannot be bad as long as she keeps her core she will always be a good character.
was she made too quickly? maybe. but considering almost every new dlc characacter recieved changes she wasnt alone. Launch mewtwo clearly wasn't play tested or FT from cloud in its original form.
also if we get smash switch some players better learn to use a new controller unless they are gonna cater specifically for them again?
 
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Emblem Lord

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Bayo is going nowhere guys.

They honestly didn't test her enough, but patches are done.

Let's be real.
 

Nidtendofreak

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Bayo is going nowhere guys.

They honestly didn't test her enough, but patches are done.

Let's be real.
Patches are done, but Switch is a whole another version with new content and by the sounds of the rumours a couple new characters. I highly doubt there won't be a balance patch in there as well.

And hopefully Bayonetta is hammered into the ground because otherwise she will at some point get herself banned.

Also rumours currently say Nintendo are considered allowing GC controllers to work with the Switch because of the upcoming Gamecube VC on it. So we might not need to learn new controllers.
 

Zult

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bayo mains are in for a ruuuuude awakening when smash for switch comes out lmao
Patches are done, but Switch is a whole another version with new content and by the sounds of the rumours a couple new characters. I highly doubt there won't be a balance patch in there as well.

And hopefully Bayonetta is hammered into the ground because otherwise she will at some point get herself banned.

Also rumours currently say Nintendo are considered allowing GC controllers to work with the Switch because of the upcoming Gamecube VC on it. So we might not need to learn new controllers.
A character that is barely winning anything at top level or even local level of play is going to get banned... ye ok.

Also if a new character is introduced you guys will just end up whining about that character, too. Never ending loop.
 

blackghost

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Patches are done, but Switch is a whole another version with new content and by the sounds of the rumours a couple new characters. I highly doubt there won't be a balance patch in there as well.

And hopefully Bayonetta is hammered into the ground because otherwise she will at some point get herself banned.

Also rumours currently say Nintendo are considered allowing GC controllers to work with the Switch because of the upcoming Gamecube VC on it. So we might not need to learn new controllers.
well if they release new gc controller fix the freaking z button and add a second high trigger.
im not sure they should be nerfing characters as much as buffing others. theres a lot of character were a few simple changes make them meta game threats.
she isnt getting banned. she isnt ban worthy. thats not even up for discussion.
similar to how void and other high level shieks have removed/ limited the designed weakness of shiek killing (plus no one striking smashville) shiek's weaknesses have begun to evaporate same here with bayo.
still think shiek is the aboslute best character in this game. recovery, combos, control, punish, zoning, the character does it all. best normals, top 5 down special, best teleport, and can edge guard anyone in the game.
looking at tournament results even if shes complained about or speculated about being banned top level players, ally stands out, are doing well vs her. bayo placement is between 10th to 4th from what ive seen. a lot of her players are having a hard time with top level players. mk leo basically ran over mr r
 
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Fenny

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Patches are done, but Switch is a whole another version with new content and by the sounds of the rumours a couple new characters. I highly doubt there won't be a balance patch in there as well.

And hopefully Bayonetta is hammered into the ground because otherwise she will at some point get herself banned.

Also rumours currently say Nintendo are considered allowing GC controllers to work with the Switch because of the upcoming Gamecube VC on it. So we might not need to learn new controllers.
lmao, bayo aint going anywhere. if anything, top shiek players like VoiD seem to be taking more and more steps in binning her weaknesses. can't think of the last time when void has had any problem killing.
 

Emblem Lord

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Best non sword normals overall?

lolno.

That is not Sheik. She is tied for best fair and has the best ftilt.

That is it.
 

sleepy_Nex

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mk leo basically ran over mr r
Wasn't that mainly a player based Matchup+mr.r.'s Bayo isn't really ready to take on someone on mk leo's level?
I mean his whole picking Bayo in this set was a counterpick for leo not Marth.
 
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~ Gheb ~

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Best ftilt, best projectile, top 5 frame data, top 5 fair, top 5 dtilt, top 5 nair, top 5 grab + throw game, top 10 jab. Plus a virtually non-existent disadvantaged state / several free out of jail cards on top of that. All on one character.

If that ain't the best character in the game I don't know who else is.

:059:
 
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Emblem Lord

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So what you are saying is....

Sheik/Bayo team if anyone is serious about the game?

Or Sheik/Diddy?
 

soniczx123

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well if they release new gc controller fix the freaking z button and add a second high trigger.
im not sure they should be nerfing characters as much as buffing others. theres a lot of character were a few simple changes make them meta game threats.
she isnt getting banned. she isnt ban worthy. thats not even up for discussion.
similar to how void and other high level shieks have removed/ limited the designed weakness of shiek killing (plus no one striking smashville) shiek's weaknesses have begun to evaporate same here with bayo.
still think shiek is the aboslute best character in this game. recovery, combos, control, punish, zoning, the character does it all. best normals, top 5 down special, best teleport, and can edge guard anyone in the game.
looking at tournament results even if shes complained about or speculated about being banned top level players, ally stands out, are doing well vs her. bayo placement is between 10th to 4th from what ive seen. a lot of her players are having a hard time with top level players. mk leo basically ran over mr r
There won't be a new GC controller. They will just allow the current GC adapter to be compatible with the Switch through the 2 USB ports on the dock.
 

Bowserboy3

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The way this thread spirals out of control sometimes is laughable.

We go from New Bayonetta Tech discovered -> the tech is amazing -> Bayonetta will be banned... all within a day, without even seeing how the so called "amazing tech" will have chance to be used.

Give things a damn chance to be shown off first.

From the way I see things, while this is indeed another option for Bayonetta's book of tricks, exactly how useful is this going to be?

Take the examples in that video; in almost all the examples, Bayonetta must already be in the air, and I'll wager over 80% of the time when Bayonetta is in the air, you're there with her, in the middle of one of her combos.

So tell me exactly what advantage Bayonetta will get from landing quickly? Sure, no landing lag under certain circumstances is a boon, but lets take 0:24 on that video as an example. Bayonetta has the opponent in a combo, and as the combo ends, Bayonetta uses Dair to land lagless, so she can attempt to hit Fox with a Heel Slide. Seems great right? Let me point a couple of things out to you.

1) Why would Bayonetta not try to extend her advantage here with another guaranteed attack such as Bair or Uair (one of which could potentially KO under the right circumstances)?

2) You are forgetting that the opponent has complete control of their character also. What is stopping Fox from jumping away? What is stopping him from using Shine to stall his fall? More importantly, what's stopping Fox from just teching (away, which would avoid this completely)?

In no situation could I see anything completely guaranteed.

I'm more than happy to eat my words, but as far as I see this, it's going to be about as useful as the stun jacket, or even the regular frame cancel itself.

But for the love of god, please stop overreacting every time something new comes here. Give things some time to develop. In a few months time, I'm pretty sure you'll all forget what even this is.

Say, who remembers the revolutionary step dash?
 
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Yikarur

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Also... no. That's not luck at all. There's nothing random about the buttons you press. True competitive philosophy says that you choose options in a way that you're not guessing. You increase the chances of your opponent acting in the way you want.
->
All these scenarios are technically probability management
You kinda agree with me, I guess.
 
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FeelMeUp

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Shiddy is probably the best character combo because of how well they cover each other's annoying/bad matchups and how similar their playstyles are.
Diddy beats Sheik's even-ish matchups (:4peach::4mewtwo::4sonic:) while Sheik trounces his hard or unfavourable ones(:4olimar::4megaman::4luigi::4fox:). Diddy beats Sheik's stressful matchups more easily(:4wario::4mario::4zss: :4dedede::4bowser:) as well.
They also simultaneously cover each other's spreads for more convincing wins.
Give a sigh of relief if a player of one doesn't counterpick to the other, because they're kinda gimping themselves if they don't open up the option.
or you can just pick cloud i guess
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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Bayo canceling her stuff with dair doesn't change much for me if at all in the mu, I rarely got in a situations where her extra lag actually was relevant.
 

Nidtendofreak

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The way this thread spirals out of control sometimes is laughable.

We go from New Bayonetta Tech discovered -> the tech is amazing -> Bayonetta will be banned... all within a day, without even seeing how the so called "amazing tech" will have chance to be used.

Give things a damn chance to be shown off first.

From the way I see things, while this is indeed another option for Bayonetta's book of tricks, exactly how useful is this going to be?

Take the examples in that video; in almost all the examples, Bayonetta must already be in the air, and I'll wager over 80% of the time when Bayonetta is in the air, you're there with her, in the middle of one of her combos.

So tell me exactly what advantage Bayonetta will get from landing quickly? Sure, no landing lag under certain circumstances is a boon, but lets take 0:24 on that video as an example. Bayonetta has the opponent in a combo, and as the combo ends, Bayonetta uses Dair to land lagless, so she can attempt to hit Fox with a Heel Slide. Seems great right? Let me point a couple of things out to you.

1) Why would Bayonetta not try to extend her advantage here with another guaranteed attack such as Bair or Uair (one of which could potentially KO under the right circumstances)?

2) You are forgetting that the opponent has complete control of their character also. What is stopping Fox from jumping away? What is stopping him from using Shine to stall his fall? More importantly, what's stopping Fox from just teching (away, which would avoid this completely)?

In no situation could I see anything completely guaranteed.

I'm more than happy to eat my words, but as far as I see this, it's going to be about as useful as the stun jacket, or even the regular frame cancel itself.

But for the love of god, please stop overreacting every time something new comes here. Give things some time to develop. In a few months time, I'm pretty sure you'll all forget what even this is.

Say, who remembers the revolutionary step dash?
I've been saying Bayo has a high chance of getting herself banned for a while now. Has (basically) nothing to do with her new tech, I ain't expecting much out of it myself.

She just breaks too many of Smash's general design rules, clearly didn't spend enough time in development, with too high of reward for too little of risk. Yes Sheiks are figuring out more and more stuff, as are Diddy's. Bayo is at their level with a fraction of the invested time and total play time in tournaments due to being DLC + set of nerfs. Just, think about that for a moment. How many total man hours Sheik and Diddy have had invested into them: in tournaments, in friendlies, in the lab. Think about how little Bayo has in comparison. And then look at the fact you could very easily say those three are in a class of their own.

I'm certainly not saying she's about to get banned right now, she ain't even #1 atm. I'm saying at the rate things are going, I would completely expect her to get banned in the future unless the Switch version hits her with the nerf hammer again. Just needs the man hours put into her combined with breaking the character design mold.
 

HoSmash4

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With Sheik's non existent disadvantage state... she is immune to: ledgetrapping, landing punishes and edgeguarding? I'd actually disagree although she handles the latter two pretty well at the cost of having essientially 'a lower hit point level' due to low weight, and being perfect combo food
 
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