Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Bowserboy3]

Let's goooooooooooo I'm so hyped for the future of sheik lol (I have to give credit to the people who push the tech itself and me to use it) pic.twitter.com/4T0Al91RwA

— Void (@gsmVoiD) December 10, 2016

Glad to see a top Sheik has finally started to use it.
The major mobility and option boosts are what makes me keep saying needles are the best projectile in the game.

I'm quite slow... what exactly is VoiD doing here?

Just asking because if it isn't Sheik exclusive I'm wondering if other characters can do the same.

I'm assuming it involves Needles so I assume not, but just checking.

 

[Das Koopa]

Showdown: Battle Royale Top 8

Winners Side
SF.HDG | MKLEO v DNL | Marss
C9 | Ally v Mr. R

Losers Side
UnF | IcyMist v Zinoto
MVG | Dyr v E2C | DarkShad

9th: Pugwest
9th: The Great Gonzales
9th: VS | Nick Riddle ,
9th: E2C | Seth
13th: GP | Nero
13th: Dath
13th: LGS EMG | Blacktwins ,
13th: UR | Ned ,

 

[Trunks159]

I swear Pugwest through away that set.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I'm quite slow... what exactly is VoiD doing here?

Just asking because if it isn't Sheik exclusive I'm wondering if other characters can do the same.

I'm assuming it involves Needles so I assume not, but just checking.

Run>set stick to neutral>charge needle>few frames to perform an Instant Needle Cancel>input any move.

 

[TDK]

Showdown: Battle Royale Top 8

Winners Side
SF.HDG | MKLEO v DNL | Marss
C9 | Ally v Mr. R

Losers Side
UnF | IcyMist v Zinoto
MVG | Dyr v E2C | DarkShad

9th: Pugwest
9th: The Great Gonzales
9th: VS | Nick Riddle ,
9th: E2C | Seth
13th: GP | Nero
13th: Dath
13th: LGS EMG | Blacktwins ,
13th: UR | Ned ,

Who did IcyMist beat?

 

[Deleted member]

Who did IcyMist beat?

He beat Ned and Seth.

 

[Das Koopa]

IcyMist beat Dan 3-1, Ned 3-2, and Seth 3-0 after losing to Ally. Ned's a pretty good pickup

 

[Emblem Lord]

Another Ryu bout to get ate the **** up by Diddy lol.

 

[ARISTOS]

Duck Hunt is such trash lmao

 

[chaos11011]

People are quick to complain about Duck Hunt, but if Ally optimized his combos like he said he's too lazy to do, there probably wouldn't have been a percent deficit to begin with. Mr. R used that to his advantage.

 

[Das Koopa]

Duck Hunt has a long history of promoting timeouts

It'll be banned within a year whether or not we get Yoshi's Island with Smash for Switch

MKLeo vs. Mr. R Winners Finals. Seems free for Leo

 

[Emblem Lord]

Why would a viable, but completely stoppable tactic be banned?

Or y'all that weak?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

It better not be banned, stage list is already far too small as it is.

People gotta accept timeouts are a legit way to win as long as circle camping ain't involved. Less salt, more picking characters that don't fall to that strategy.

 

[420quickscoper]

ZeRo 3-2 Rich Brown
That was so tense until game 5, where ZeRo just kind of dominated.
https://smash.gg/tournament/smash-city-la/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/92037

 

[Das Koopa]

Timeouts are a legit way of winning. I don't see people disputing this. But it damages the health of the game as a spectator sport and Duck Hunt has a long history of promoting it with characters that have good mobility. There's a difference between occasional timeouts happening and people playing on a janky stage with random elements (e.g. the ducks) that also promotes a spectator-repellent strategy.

And yeah, I know, the rules are meant to cater to players, but there is no Smash 4 Meta if there isn't a big spectator crowd. No sponsorship, no donations, no big prize pools, etc. A healthy number of spectators are every bit as important to the longevity of the game as any other significant element, like good TOs and a large playerbase.

Hopefully Switch has Yoshi's Island. I doubt TOs will dispute making DL64/Lylat the CPs while SV/BF/FD/T&C/YI are starters. If Melee can function 200k viewers at EVO on a 6 stage list I'm pretty sure Smash 4 will be good with 7.

 

[blackghost]

Timeouts are a legit way of winning. I don't see people disputing this. But it damages the health of the game as a spectator sport and Duck Hunt has a long history of promoting it with characters that have good mobility. There's a difference between occasional timeouts happening and people playing on a janky stage with random elements (e.g. the ducks) that also promotes a spectator-repellent strategy.

And yeah, I know, the rules are meant to cater to players, but there is no Smash 4 Meta if there isn't a big spectator crowd. No sponsorship, no donations, no big prize pools, etc. A healthy number of spectators are every bit as important to the longevity of the game as any other significant element, like good TOs and a large playerbase.

Hopefully Switch has Yoshi's Island. I doubt TOs will dispute making DL64/Lylat the CPs while SV/BF/FD/T&C/YI are starters. If Melee can function 200k viewers at EVO on a 6 stage list I'm pretty sure Smash 4 will be good with 7.

can we stop with the mindset of works for melee works for this game? this is the game WE play. same series but basically different game cultures, mindsets, and even strategies. duck hunt is a legit stage it has all the checkboxes for a legal stage. if switc has more stages (assuming this community is able to leave gc controllers behind) that doesnt mean lylat and duck hunt should be removed. it will make stage striking and bans a skill to be honed and actual used rather than the auto bans most players use now.
as for the argument of spectator sport if and when smash 4 is struggling for viewership we can deal with that but as of right now we aren't. with new character(s) and a new release dont think we will be struggling anytime soon.

the other issue on the horizon is with mvc getting a new game the debate for who gets sunday (at events and evo) will be ugly next year. us or melee is getting kicked out of a good time slot.

 

[FeelMeUp]

i dunno, dude.
giving the biggest stage a legitimate circle camping strategy that some characters cannot deal with is definitely something you can't look over.
there's nothing stopping a person using someone like bayo, sheik, sonic, puff or meta knight from just camping from tree>tree>ground or just standing on the tree making you helpless.
even characters with decent mobility with no projectiles can do it easily.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Timeouts are a legit way of winning. I don't see people disputing this. But it damages the health of the game as a spectator sport and Duck Hunt has a long history of promoting it with characters that have good mobility. There's a difference between occasional timeouts happening and people playing on a janky stage with random elements (e.g. the ducks) that also promotes a spectator-repellent strategy.

And yeah, I know, the rules are meant to cater to players, but there is no Smash 4 Meta if there isn't a big spectator crowd. No sponsorship, no donations, no big prize pools, etc. A healthy number of spectators are every bit as important to the longevity of the game as any other significant element, like good TOs and a large playerbase.

Hopefully Switch has Yoshi's Island. I doubt TOs will dispute making DL64/Lylat the CPs while SV/BF/FD/T&C/YI are starters. If Melee can function 200k viewers at EVO on a 6 stage list I'm pretty sure Smash 4 will be good with 7.

Esports be damned.

The purity that can only be brought when two competitors go head to head is all that ****ing matters

 

[ARISTOS]

Timeouts are a legitimate but ultimately tertiary win condition, chosen above all else because Sudden Death is very un-competitive and time outs at least have root in other fighting games.

The preferred win condition is very much taking the two stocks. We have seen Duck Hunt, over the course of the past year and a half, unnaturally enhance time outs as a win condition. Most time outs we see end up on Duck Hunt.

We have few stages so I wouldn't get rid of it, but give me an additional stage on the Switch and IMO Duck Hunt should be the first to go.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Why do people keep taking Leo to Smashville? I feel like he's the person no one should ever play there.

 

[Das Koopa]

Mr. R is willing to sink on the Bayo ship before trying Sheik again against Leo

 

[HoSmash4]

Esports can do what they like but I legit cant feel... outplayed if they camp on Duck Hunt due to my character not having as good mobility or bad-tree pressure.

Although if the current system is 7 stages 2 bans and 6 stages (No duck hunt) 1 ban, then Duck hunt is fine

 

[Das Koopa]

annnnd MKLeo wins

Showdown: Battle Royale (December 10th-11th) (Midwest) (134 Entrants) (Category 2)
1st: SF HDG | MKLEO
2nd: Mr. R
3rd: C9 | Ally
4th: MVG | Dyr
5th: Zinoto
5th: DNL | Marss ,
7th: UnF | IcyMist
7th: E2C | DarkShad
9th: Pugwest
9th: The Great Gonzales
9th: VS | Nick Riddle ,
9th: E2C | Seth
13th: GP | Nero
13th: Dath
13th: LGS EMG | Blacktwins ,
13th: UR | Ned ,

 

[Bowserboy3]

annnnd MKLeo wins

1st: SF HDG | MKLEO
2nd: Mr. R
3rd: C9 | Ally
4th: MVG | Dyr
5th: Zinoto
5th: DNL | Marss ,
7th: UnF | IcyMist
7th: E2C | DarkShad
9th: Pugwest
9th: The Great Gonzales
9th: VS | Nick Riddle ,
9th: E2C | Seth
13th: GP | Nero
13th: Dath
13th: LGS EMG | Blacktwins ,
13th: UR | Ned ,

What was this again?

 

[blackghost]

so we just say what a fraudulent bayo looks like vs an elite player. if you still think she carries players to free wins or needs to be nerfed further you need some evidence to back that up.
next leo sdi'ed (not to esam level) but to a suffcient level so combos weren't consistent at all
next any fireemblem counter can edge guard bayo period.
last punish her airdodge.
other topics where doe leo rank among player now? top 10? 

 

[Trunks159]

^kind of beating a dead horse...

 

[Ziodyne 21]

What are you saying that is fraudulent or that is it just Mr.R using her not that well.because yea Mr.R was making a lot of errors , dropping potential combos and and some fatal mistakes that cost him entire stocks

Looked like Mr.R was kinda losing composure near the end was making quite a few bad calls. Man, has Leo now got into his head THAT badly?

 

[Fenny]

I wouldn't say his Bayo is fraudulent. But it doesn't hold a candle to those who main her, which is to be expected since he only started taking his secondaries seriously recently. Otherwise I think it's coming along decently, and he's got top tiers in the Bayo Nation like Pink and Zack tutoring him along the way.

He needs to mix up his recovery more with Bayo though. He underestimates how low she can go and how she can divekick from the corner of the blast zone to near the ledge. Also needs to get used to reading DI movement during her combos to maximise damage output. Every time he went for double ABK when he could have Witch Twisted or Fair'd Leo I gritted my teeth.

 

[|RK|]

Two things:

1) "Purity of competition" is relevant in other fighting games, but in Smash the community already selects the ruleset, stages, and everything else regarding the competition. Saying that Duck Hunt isn't the best because it promotes timeouts is very much a valid point. And that's not saying timeouts aren't a valid strategy - they are. But they shouldn't be primarily stage-based interactions. Skill-based timeouts are impressive - they actually require the player to do the right thing at all times. But if you appreciate seeing someone win due to factors that don't require them to do much, how can you claim to appreciate "purity of competition"?

Part of the thing in most fighting games is this - when you run away from your opponent, you trade good positioning for safety. If you trade nothing, that's hardly a fair playing ground.

2) On the opposite end of the spectrum, watching tournaments tells me that Kirby's biggest weakness - being camped out - isn't much of a weakness at all. We keep talking about how powerful timeouts are, but very, very few people do that (even at the top level). No one really likes to. Our best Sheik players rush in often - same with many of our Clouds and even Sonic players. They have the ability to force a timeout, but they aren't going to. This is more of a problem when facing the mid-high level players, IMO. But past that, no one seems to care much for running away.

 

[SSB ReVerb]

So MKLeo is 14-2 in sets w/ MrR a top 10 player, positive over Nairo & Dabuz and is tied 3-3 w/ Ally. He just won Showdown too only dropping 1 game.

I think its obvious at this point he's a top 10 player and can compete on the same level as the rest of them. Now the real thing we should be debating is whether or not he holds a good argument for Top 5.

 

[blackghost]

What are you saying that is fraudulent or that is it just Mr.R using her not that well.because yea Mr.R was making a lot of errors , dropping potential combos and nd some mistakes that cost him entire stocks

Looked like Mr.R was kinda losing composure near the end was making quite a few nad calls. Man, has Leo now got into his head THAT badly?

im saying you need a high level bayo to win tournaments of that level. mr. r bayo isnt good enough to win some of the higher level monthlies let alone take a set on leo. this set also reenforces what some bayo players have said. you cannot secondary her. she takes too much time and effort to learn. she isnt cloud you cant spend a week on her and perform well with her on fundementals alone.
there was a long list of mistake he made using her some very basic including but not limited to: staling f-throw early for no reason, mashing airdodge like she's mewtwo, very poor witch time punishes, recovery too predictable

 

[verbatim]

Part of the thing in most fighting games is this - when you run away from your opponent, you trade good positioning for safety. If you trade nothing, that's hardly a fair playing ground.

The game 5's he won in winners and in losers weren't that different. Patient play isn't exclusive to Duck Hunt. It's also incredibly risky in a game w/ rage.


Without rage the only characters in top tier would be Sheik, Diddy, and Sonic.

 

[420quickscoper]

Speaking of Mr. R, someone on reddit makes stats of top 15 players' record vs other top 15 players, and his latest one was Mr. R's. This is postpatch, BTW.

http://imgur.com/a/dIXZ6

This really doesn't look good. He's negative in sets with 9 members of this top 15, even with 1, hasn't played 2, and only has a winning record against Ally and Marss.

He always makes the set close, but doesn't really win the set against a lot of top 10 players.

 

[L9999]

annnnd MKLeo wins

Showdown: Battle Royale (December 10th-11th) (Midwest) (134 Entrants) (Category 2)
1st: SF HDG | MKLEO
2nd: Mr. R
3rd: C9 | Ally
4th: MVG | Dyr
5th: Zinoto
5th: DNL | Marss ,
7th: UnF | IcyMist
7th: E2C | DarkShad
9th: Pugwest
9th: The Great Gonzales
9th: VS | Nick Riddle ,
9th: E2C | Seth
13th: GP | Nero
13th: Dath
13th: LGS EMG | Blacktwins ,
13th: UR | Ned ,

Did Seth defeated anyone relevant/good? I find it weird Yoshi gets top 16 a lot yet no one cares.

 

[|RK|]

Two big things from the invitational, I think.

1) Rich Brown took ZeRo to game 5 using Mewtwo. I didn't get to see the matches yet (watching now), but this sort of confirms my suspicions. If the only two games Abadango has taken off of ZeRo came from Meta Knight, while lower ranked Mewtwo players (LoF Blue and Rich Brown) have been able to take games off of ZeRo's Diddy with Mewtwo, it's clear that the top-level representation is more of a player issue than a character issue. Aba just isn't great vs ZeRo's Diddy.

2) I hear ZeRo brought back the Sheik against Mr. ConCon. Looking at that after I watch the Mewtwo matches.

The game 5's he won in winners and in losers weren't that different. Patient play isn't exclusive to Duck Hunt. It's also incredibly risky in a game w/ rage.


Without rage the only characters in top tier would be Sheik, Diddy, and Sonic.

My point is the risk of rage and player skill comes into play more effectively on stages that aren't Duck Hunt. Duck Hunt removes most of the risk of camping.

Patient play is great. Camping as a strategy is great. Duck Hunt is something else entirely.

 

[TDK]

Speaking of Mr. R, someone on reddit makes stats of top 15 players' record vs other top 15 players, and his latest one was Mr. R's. This is postpatch, BTW.

http://imgur.com/a/dIXZ6

This really doesn't look good. He's negative in sets with 9 members of this top 15, even with 1, hasn't played 2, and only has a winning record against Ally and Marss.

He always makes the set close, but doesn't really win the set against a lot of top 10 players.

Including Ranai on there raises a bit of a red flag for me, since he's been to 3 tournaments where he could compete with the non-japanese top 15. One of those was before Corrinetta were even in the game and another was right after that. So really, Ranai's had one tournament to count for.

 

[Das Koopa]

Did Seth defeated anyone relevant/good? I find it weird Yoshi gets top 16 a lot yet no one cares.

Pugwest & Day

Most of the hype got sapped towards IcyMist who took Zinoto to game 5.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Wait. So if half the cast is known to struggle on Duckhunt against the other half, then what are they using their ban for?

 

[TDK]

Wait. So if half the cast is known to struggle on Duckhunt against the other half, then what are they using their ban for?

Because people hate Lylat so much that it clouds their judgement.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

im saying you need a high level bayo to win tournaments of that level. mr. r bayo isnt good enough to win some of the higher level monthlies let alone take a set on leo. this set also reenforces what some bayo players have said. you cannot secondary her. she takes too much time and effort to learn. she isnt cloud you cant spend a week on her and perform well with her on fundementals alone.
there was a long list of mistake he made using her some very basic including but not limited to: staling f-throw early for no reason, mashing airdodge like she's mewtwo, very poor witch time punishes, recovery too predictable

You main Bayo by any chance Blackghost ? I have been trying to pick up Bayo myself so I like to keep track of these things. It is pretty hard to get a good grip with her without constant practice and experience in real face to face matches. Unfortunately don't have much time to go to many local places to play anymore and trying to play her on FG is a recipe for disaster..lol