Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Shaya]

Marth still loses to Sheik, but Sheik cannot approach Marth (getting off the ledge is not free either). It's literally the same dynamic of Brawl Marth vs MK match up, except Sheik is less bull **** than MK.
Needles aren't as great as people still seem to believe.

Marth slightly loses to the top 5 (maybe even a lot of top 10), but he probably has the best retreating jump game of all characters (nly Sonic/Fox/maybe Pika kinda [edit: there are probably more] lol at it, for now!!!!111!). He exudes insane pressure when he's in the lead.

Usually a character who loses a match up tends to lose in a lot of ways, Marth definitely beats most characters in a lot of ways (e.g. you're on the ledge against him) but still has natural shortfalls (every commitment is half of a second of movement/control given to an opponent with a bit of anticipation/reaction, if not executed appropriately).

All of Marth's "hard" match ups in this game are kinda like his vs Brawl Dedede mu. If the Marth player is an overall better player than their opponent (ding ding scales with fundamentals AND match up knowledge), he's able to nullify the traditional advantages a lot of characters tend to rely on 'all the time', including the ones that are meant to be shortfalls of his character.
With the power of a comparative example - hopefully that will make sense #_#
A Zero Suit Samus, even with immense match up experience, is playing on the back foot against a competent Diddy; you have to be a vastly stronger player or are nearly always successful with the [necessary] risks taken to come out on top.

This trails back a bit to what I think of ZSS - she's absolutely bull ****, I love it - but she distinctively doesn't have answers to certain option spreads. She is the gatekeeper of true traditional smash bros top tierness (options out of every orifice and/or insane risk/reward with grab plus at least a single solid anti-air option).
But dammit, people will just want to do their 10-15 character (S) tiers because they want to believe many are nearly equal, smh.

 

[Sleek Media]

That's probably because she's not a pressure based character. Rosalina isn't trying to overwhelm opponents with speed. Controlling the pace of the game is one of her biggest things. She's a defensive wall that can control a lot of space.

If you are playing defense, you aren't controlling the pace of ****.

 

[Kofu]

If you are playing defense, you aren't controlling the pace of ****.

While I'd usually agree with this, I feel like playing defense can keep you in control if your options routinely beat out the opponent's attempts to approach or have skewed risk/reward for playing defense. There's a also a difference between playing defense and playing defensively, IMO.

Granted, Luma gives Rosalina a very strong and flexible space-controlling tool in many matchups. But I don't think the principle is hugely different between what characters like Duck Hunt and Villager can do.

Matches against Rosalina have a totally different dynamic than any other in the game because of Luma.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I'm not seeing how Marth outright "loses" to Diddy and Mewtwo, as others have mentioned; Shaya's past post detailing how the MU can be even is very enlightening, and Mewtwo has a combination of having a smaller disjoint than Marth, and being huge and lightweight, which ironically, due to his size, makes him quite easy to combo, and in turn, KO, arguably more so than the smaller lighter characters like G&W and Puff. No character here has a notable advantage over the other.

In fact, I dislike the usage of the word "loses" here, because in reality, out of the whole of top 10, Marth probably only really "loses" to perhaps one character.

"Losing" to me is 40:60, and a mere slight disadvantage is 45:55, meaning very much easily possible.

With that in mind, I'd say Sonic is the only real character that outright has a chance at being 60:40 for Marth (60 Sonic, 40 Marth), but even then, Marth's players have shown it being a do-able MU, so that has chance to develop into the 55:45 territory in time.

There are characters that have "advantages" over Marth, notably being Sheik, Bayonetta and (debatably - varies by opinion) Cloud, but the rest of the characters are either on the cusp of even, or very much even. Marth can even pose a notable threat to some of them (Mario and Rosalina for example).

As Shaya said in the post a few up, if Marth straight up plays his fundamentals better than the opponent, he's able to almost nullify traditional advantages; this is likely why Leo seems to make MU's like Sonic and Sheik look like cake, as his fundamental skills are just fantastic.

In general, Marth (and Meta Knight too) is much more honest than the top 10 characters. In short, all the top 10 have multiple fantastic options. Marth doesn't have multiple borderline broken options and abilities that the top 10 have (Bayonetta combos and Witch Times, Sheik combos and mind boggling neutral, ZSS's explosive comeback ability to end stocks in a flash and general rage jank. Just a few examples, I think you get me). Marth's has Jab that is legitimately borderline broken, but in comparison to other broken top tier options, it's much less powerful in general (you're stood still; you don't do it while moving, not like Mewtwo's Fair, for example, so it's quite streamlined).

In short, I don't see Marth (and again, Meta Knight) in the top 10, and in a similar phrase, I don't see how characters like Villager or Toon Link can be above them, not when everything is considered as a whole.

What's most interesting to me, is how trends seem to be repeating themselves again. In every other Smash game, Marth has taken time to reach his best potential. Smash 4 proves again that Marth develops with time.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Characters like Sonic, Diddy and Sheik have a key advantage over Marth thanks to a trait Shaya explained on his post: Every attack of his is a commitment.

Basically, if the opponent forces Marth to approach he is less strong as otherwise.

So let me elaborate on that, and why I think Marth is an extremely interesting character in neutral and helps players with strong fundamentals to succeed: if he places his moves correctly, guesses right, or simply play safe waiting for opponents to approach, he will do well.
If he throws a lot unnecessary moves, overcommits, or simply does something wrong, leaves an opening to be attacked himself (most notably when he has an important percentage or stock disadvantage to overcome).
Faster characters like the ones I mentioned force Marth to be specially cautious at all times, and some projectiles like Diddy's make it even more difficult to pick the right options.

He's like the embodiment of fencing.



Sorry if the post is unorganized.

 

[HoSmash4]

approaching is inherently unsafe as well, but it is true sonic,sheik,Diddy has really good bait and punish tools to fight Marth

 

[Jamurai]

Late on some things but ya.

I mean, he SDI'd out of Mewtwo's Usmash.

Why has everyone assumed this happened? Like when ZeRo "SDI'd" out of Nairo's Fsmash but it was actually just the move not linking properly. Pika is small so he low-profiles and falls out of stuff. KillerJawz (high-level EU Mewtwo) also immediately tweeted that ESAM falling out was not due to SDI when it happened.

Well Leo also beat with Mr. R with Metaknight, but almost all other MKs seriously struggled against her. Tyrant almost dropped MK just because of that match up.

Leo has a tendency to make tough match ups look easier than they really are because he's straight up better than most people.

This isn't the case with every matchup though tbf. As re-affirmed recently, he has a lot of trouble vs Ryu.

Tyrant always keeps it very competitive vs Sheiks as MK, I think Sheik MK is even as well

I think this is a Tyrant thing more than a MK thing, he plays Sheik to a high-level himself and has a lot of exp vs VoiD in particular. A lot of MK players find the matchup frustrating. I think it's a solid -1.

Usually a character who loses a match up tends to lose in a lot of ways, Marth definitely beats most characters in a lot of ways (e.g. you're on the ledge against him) but still has natural shortfalls (every commitment is half of a second of movement/control given to an opponent with a bit of anticipation/reaction, if not executed appropriately).

Characters like Sonic, Diddy and Sheik have a key advantage over Marth thanks to a trait Shaya explained on his post: Every attack of his is a commitment.

Basically, if the opponent forces Marth to approach he is less strong as otherwise.

So let me elaborate on that, and why I think Marth is an extremely interesting character in neutral and helps players with strong fundamentals to succeed: if he places his moves correctly, guesses right, or simply play safe waiting for opponents to approach, he will do well.
If he throws a lot unnecessary moves, overcommits, or simply does something wrong, leaves an opening to be attacked himself (most notably when he has an important percentage or stock disadvantage to overcome).
Faster characters like the ones I mentioned force Marth to be specially cautious at all times, and some projectiles like Diddy's make it even more difficult to pick the right options.

While we're on about Marth's losing MUs... These traits of Marth, alongside the crazy punish game MK has on him (demonstrated by Oatmeal) are good reasons why MK quite possibly beats him +1. The potent bait and punish game, and the burst movement to punish any committed movement or button on the side of Marth is extremely valuable. Then, the brutal punishes off his burst options put MK ahead, which forces Marth to approach and then it can snowball like that, making the MU look awful sometimes.

It's not too bad though overall. Approaching a patient, jab-/tilt-happy Marth in the lead can be difficult. MK is a good weight to be stringed, and he can't retaliate with a string breaker like he can as a mixup in a lot of matchups cuz butter knife, leaving him with less options in disadvantage. Also, being on the ledge is not fun at all, and he dies relatively early to tippers, especially offstage (Marth being one of the few characters who isn't scared of challenging him there).

 

[Deleted member]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Here's falln's MU spread.

 

[TTTTTsd]

If you are playing defense, you aren't controlling the pace of ****.

Are you so sure of this?

 

[FeelMeUp]

If you are playing defense, you aren't controlling the pace of ****.

I could probably have a field day with this post, but we'll keep it short.
This sorta ignores the fact that defense is not only the easier style of play, but is also the most powerful for fighting in general.
By looking at the confines of our series you'll see that the majority of top players are defensive.

Uneducated on 64 but it looks like a lot of defensive poking until you get a hit for massive damage.
Out of the Melee Gods you have M2K, Hungrybox, Armada, and PPMD as defensive players. Leffen is also defensive.
Brawl needs no answers.
Smash 4 is pretty obvious. ZeRo, Dabuz, Komo, Leo, and a few others as defensive players.

There's less risk to strong defense. You can control the pace of the game by telling the opponent they can't choose certain options without taking considerable damage.
You can cut off certain options(i.e Diddy popgun camping a Lucas with banana in hand generally cuts off the option of dash in, short hop aerials, and PK Fire camping) with a few simple tools and make the opponent play your game.
I don't understand how you would come to the conclusion that defensive play doesn't give you control. If anything, in equal defense vs offense the aggressor tends to be the one that gets blown back because of holes being more apparent.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Here's falln's MU spread.

He thinks theMU is as bad as ? I Wonder why.

 

[Jamurai]

He thinks theMU is as bad as ? I Wonder why.

It's more that he thinks the MK matchup is only as bad as Bayo. He might be the best Rosa at the matchup, considering how much he plays Ito and Tyrant, and also that he and Ito lab together very often (or certainly used to). You can also see it in his sets.

Then again nowadays when he meets Ito in bracket he uses ZSS.

 

[|RK|]

Why has everyone assumed this happened? Like when ZeRo "SDI'd" out of Nairo's Fsmash but it was actually just the move not linking properly. Pika is small so he low-profiles and falls out of stuff. KillerJawz (high-level EU Mewtwo) also immediately tweeted that ESAM falling out was not due to SDI when it happened.

ESAM said it was due to SDI. He says it's the same SDI as Witch Twist.

 

[Lukingordex]

Here's falln's MU spread.

Interesting. I personally believe Yoshi has an even MU against rosalina, i'm kinda suprised that falln believes rosalina has such a large advantage. I wonder how other Rosalina mains are feeling about the Yoshi MU lately? Dabuz thinks it's a small rosa advantage, if i'm not mistaken. How do other rosas and yoshis fell about this mu?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

It's more that he thinks the MK matchup is only as bad as Bayo. He might be the best Rosa at the matchup, considering how much he plays Ito and Tyrant, and also that he and Ito lab together very often (or certainly used to). You can also see it in his sets.

Then again nowadays when he meets Ito in bracket he uses ZSS.

My question was why he thinks the Bayo MU is apparently so bad for Rosa that it is even comparable to her infamously bad MK MU in the first place ? Wonder why he says that Bayo is worse for Rosa than both Sheik and Cloud?

 

[Murlough]

ESAM said it was due to SDI. He says it's the same SDI as Witch Twist.

ESAM says alot of things. I'm almost certain he just fell out of the move.

 

[FeelMeUp]

ZeRo has said he can SDI out of the move because of something Japanese players taught him.
and ESAM was visibly SDI-ing like his life depended on it in the playercam.

 

[TDK]

Are people still arguing about Rosa not being top 10 when Dabuz has made it into more top 8s this year than Nairo?

Yet people are pretending Dabuz doesn't exist and using Nairo's results as a reason that ZSS is still top 10?*

...This thread is so silly sometimes.

Not saying i think ZSS isn't top 10, but I do think she's 10th.

 

[HoSmash4]

Theres a difference between Cornering yourself and defensive play

 

[DanGR]

Re: Rosa vs Bayo.

-Unlike Marth, Sheik, Diddy, etc. Rosa doesnt have a fairly safe way to threaten space where Bayonetta likes to short hop. Bayo applies pressure from that upward, diagonal zone that Rosa doesn't like. Rising fair hits Rosa and/or safely bounces off Luma. Let that sink in for a minute. Dair kills Luma center stage. Lingering hitboxes cut through Luma in general. Even shielded hits knock away Luma often times. Right now most Rosas play neutral in this MU by using movement to mask shieldgrab and dash attacks attempts, and sometimes punishing whiffed aerials with dtilt/jabs in situations where witch time is unlikely.

-Advantage/Disadvantage state. Bayonetta has free edgeguarding & free recovery. Rosa doesnt get as nearly as much from ledge trap scenarios as she does against other characters. Bayo's lingering aerials and short aerial FAFs make little work of invisible airdodging. Even when Rosa does get past her with airdodges, Luma is often hit anyways. Most often for bayo combos, her attacks link together too well for Luma to come to the rescue- not to mention the lingering, multihit nature of her combos just smacks Luma away if he comes to save the day. Bigger hurtbox = larger target for sideb/upb. On the plus side for Rosa, she punishes airdodges harder than many characters, but the threat of witch time is always present (obviously) for anything that isn't guaranteed. Grab combos keep the match competitive.

-In general, Rosa can't play her standard spacing game because of the threat of witch time, and the ease at which short hop approaches gets past jabs. Even if witch time doesn't freeze Rosa from a spaced attack, the invulnerability granted gives her stage control. Neutralb is another issue altogether, but the extent of its impact is usually exaggerated.

I wrote this choppily, but hopefully I made things clear.

 

[L9999]

Are people still arguing about Rosa not being top 10 when Dabuz has made it into more top 8s this year than Nairo?

Yet people are pretending Dabuz doesn't exist and using Nairo's results as a reason that ZSS is still top 10?*

...This thread is so silly sometimes.

Not saying i think ZSS isn't top 10, but I do think she's 10th.

Dabuz used a lot of Olimar this year. It doesn't mean the Rosa meta is dead, but people take it that way.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Dabuz used a lot of Olimar this year. It doesn't mean the Rosa meta is dead, but people take it that way.

The thing is Dabuz had to use Olimar much more agaisnt certian players and MU's were his Rosa was beginning to fail hiim

Aftershock 2016 is a good example . Even though he did win the whole thing, he had to fall back on Olimar quite a few times
Notabally vs Capt. Zack since his Bayo completely wrecked Dabuz when he played Rosa, but just barely managed to defeat Zack in the Grand Finals in a 10 game set using almost exclusively Olimar.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

There's no character right now that has a legitimate claim to take over Rosalina's top 10 spot. Marth may be able to some day but not right now. Right now he has still to prove himself to be stronger than Megaman [better placings at supermajors, better individual set wins, about equal playerbase], Villager [same, except smaller playerbase] and Toon Link [same, plus stronger playerbase]. He's also still somewhat competing with MK though I'm fairly certain he's going to prove to be the better character over time. But even then its far from certain he'll ever actually take over Rosalina.


Right now and are the strongest, the metagame defining characters. Regardless of how you feel about other characters' potential to take over some day there's little point in arguing that this is the current top 10, in no specific order of course. All this talk about what Marth or Corrin or whoever is hypothetically capable of cannot stand against the rock-solid, consistent results that these characters have had - for more than 2 years for most of them, mind you.


After that it's and duking it out for top 15 imo but it gets kinda blurry down there. But these five characters tend to keep up regularly, can give the top 10 a hard time and seem to be a step above the remaining characters at this point.

 

[verbatim]

I think that Marth and MK are definitely above the other three, who seem like solid mid tier characters employed at a high level of play by select top players.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I think that Marth and MK are definitely above the other three, who seem like solid mid tier characters employed at a high level of play by select top players.

Wouldn't call them "mid tiers" but I would absolutely put Marth and MK over the other three. Particularly Villager. Villager to me shouldn't even be in the running for 11th/12th, should be lucky to be considered for 15th.

 

[Dagon97]

Wouldn't call them "mid tiers" but I would absolutely put Marth and MK over the other three. Particularly Villager. Villager to me shouldn't even be in the running for 11th/12th, should be lucky to be considered for 15th.

I very much agree with this opinion, I think Villager gets shut down by a sizable portion of the cast, especially as the level of play is getting higher. That is part of the reason that I think Ranai is not doing as well at the tournaments he is going to

 

[Das Koopa]

There's inevitably going to be a lot of disagreement over a "top 15". Like I've said in the past, you can't really make characters fit a clean number. We happen to have a generally agreed upon "top 10", but until September, it was more or less the 9 minus Bayonetta, whose status in the meta was still uncertain until Zack and Salem re-broke the ceiling with her.

That 11-15 area is a mesh of in terms of what would commonly be debated. Maybe and , too. I'd say it's a pretty good sign of the game's balance. People regularly exaggerate it (I think it's inevitable certain characters will fall off) but we have bursts of energy for plenty of low-tiers here and there, and the mid-tier game in Smash 4 is incredibly strong to the point where many have developed into significant tourney threats.

Speaking of, we've had and go through "are they better than we perceive" cycles and I guess is on the up-and-up as of late. Nothing as groundbreaking as T or IcyMist's performances, but he's looking better than 5th to bottom like the current list has him at.

 

[Aaron1997]

So Wrath thinks Sonic has no losing match-ups.....

 

[Nathan Richardson]

There's inevitably going to be a lot of disagreement over a "top 15". Like I've said in the past, you can't really make characters fit a clean number. We happen to have a generally agreed upon "top 10", but until September, it was more or less the 9 minus Bayonetta, whose status in the meta was still uncertain until Zack and Salem re-broke the ceiling with her.

That 11-15 area is a mesh of in terms of what would commonly be debated. Maybe and , too. I'd say it's a pretty good sign of the game's balance. People regularly exaggerate it (I think it's inevitable certain characters will fall off) but we have bursts of energy for plenty of low-tiers here and there, and the mid-tier game in Smash 4 is incredibly strong to the point where many have developed into significant tourney threats.

Speaking of, we've had and go through "are they better than we perceive" cycles and I guess is on the up-and-up as of late. Nothing as groundbreaking as T or IcyMist's performances, but he's looking better than 5th to bottom like the current list has him at.

As a zard main I couldn't be happier about this. Does anyone have some links to notable performances that show optimal play?

 

[Krysco]

Aside from Das Koopa, I haven't seen anyone mention Corrin. Gheb's post doesn't even have him mentioned, instead opting for MM, Villager and Tink. Has the character just not been doing well or is the theory not adding up to the results ala Ryu? Could also possibly be a small playerbase since he was one of the last characters to be added and Bayo was clearly the better choice competitively.

 

[SaltyKracka]

One of these days, we're going to see a matchup chart that doesn't attempt to gloss over the balance of the game with a mass of random characters all dumped in the same spot. Heaven forfend, we may actually get to glimpse a number higher than 6!

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Aside from Das Koopa, I haven't seen anyone mention Corrin. Gheb's post doesn't even have him mentioned, instead opting for MM, Villager and Tink. Has the character just not been doing well or is the theory not adding up to the results ala Ryu? Could also possibly be a small playerbase since he was one of the last characters to be added and Bayo was clearly the better choice competitively.

Most of his results have come from secondary usage as a pocket character. A few solo mains (Ryuga, Cosmos), but they never hit top 8 at nationals with him unlike the others. And his results have been (very slowly) trending downwards as people have dropped him as a secondary.

I consider him top of mid tier. Others consider him bottom of high tier. Either way he's not in the running for top 15 and that's with a playerbase larger than Villager at least. Probably larger than MegaMan and Toon Link's as well overall. He's just not cut out for it.

And lets be real, if the Switch version includes a complete balance patch at all, his Side B is probably getting nerfed. Which will solidify him as mid tier most likely.

 

[Prophet06]

Is it just me or does pikas MU spread versus the top teirs put him as a a solid contender for top 15? I don't know much about megaman tink and villager mu's but do they really stand up to pikas? Obviously there's the issue or results and representation but is that really there at a top level for any of those bar megaman?

 

[teddystalin]

Aside from Das Koopa, I haven't seen anyone mention Corrin. Gheb's post doesn't even have him mentioned, instead opting for MM, Villager and Tink. Has the character just not been doing well or is the theory not adding up to the results ala Ryu? Could also possibly be a small playerbase since he was one of the last characters to be added and Bayo was clearly the better choice competitively.

Megaman, Villager, and Toon Link all have demonstrably proven that they can top 8/top16 at the highest levels of play and have attracted at least one world-class player (Kameme, Ranai, and Hyuga, respectively) as well as a respectable number of strong regional threats (such as Scatt, Aarvark/Kept, and Sigma/Ri-Ma/Hayato). They also have strong performances against relevant top tiers: Megaman against Diddy/Cloud/Sonic, Villager against Sonic/ZSS, and Tink against Bayo.

Corrin unfortunately has none of these things. Cosmos, Ryuga, and Ryo are strong regional threats, but all rarely travel and are inconsistent when they do (well, except for Cosmos, but that's because he really never travels.) The character hasn't really established a niche against top tiers other than Mario (though they have a pretty decent record v Diddy/Rosa/Cloud) and has been shown to struggle significantly against Sheik. And unless you're a big fan of slow, defensive characters (like me!), Marth's increased mobility, stronger advantage state, and long history in Smash make him look a lot more attractive. Corrin is settling in as a solid character in the top 20 range - they don't lose many MUs too badly and perform well against high, if not top, tiered characters. But the results aren't there for top 15, and as people mellow on his theory over time (a la Pika), there's not a strong case for any "hidden potential."

 

[Prophet06]

so perhaps a more consistent esam would get to play against higher level players and hopefully highlight the more positive relevant top tier match ups that pika has. I think zss and cloud has genuine potential and going solidly even with Shiek and Diddy Kong is no joke either especially with how scary it can be for Diddy of stage obviously and how dominant Shiek is against most of the cast. There are a couple of regional pika threats id think in rideae, that patient pika player named z I think and also I'm sure I've heard of a solid Japanese pika popping up in top 8's here and there but not sure. I clearly havnt done my research but I can't really see the difference too clearly between the examples you made and pikachu aha

 

[Ziodyne 21]

From what i have seen The nerfs Corrin got in 1.1.5 really did end up hurting her/him worse than it seemed at first. Especially the mobility reduction limitin Corrin's overall playstyle to be more focused on defensive walling and spacing out, with one great burst mobility/ kill option in Dragon Lunge to surprise opponents.


Still I'd say Corrin is sone where around #16-20 or just under that. Still a very solid character and dragon Lunge still is pretty ridiculous

 

[ぱみゅ]

btw, yes, Pikachu's spread among Top tiers is pretty decent, but then he loses to a lot of High and Mid Tiers, which leads to inconsistency.

 

[Laken64]

From what i have seen The nerfs Corrin got in 1.1.5 really did end up hurting her/him worse than it seemed at first. Especially the mobility reduction limitin Corrin's overall playstyle to be more focused on defensive walling and spacing out, with one great burst mobility/ kill option in Dragon Lunge to surprise opponents.


Still I'd say Corrin is sone where around #16-20 or just under that. Still a very solid character and dragon Lunge still is pretty ridiculous

The nerfs barely harmed Corrin at all, losing 3% of your mobility isn't really noticeable in game unless you do a side by side comparison and slowed it down by a lot, even then it's not that bad. In fact the nerfs improved Corrin's combo game and strings like fair fair DFS % range

 

[ARGHETH]

From what i have seen The nerfs Corrin got in 1.1.5 really did end up hurting her/him worse than it seemed at first. Especially the mobility reduction limitin Corrin's overall playstyle to be more focused on defensive walling and spacing out, with one great burst mobility/ kill option in Dragon Lunge to surprise opponents.

IDK, they weren't really that severe.
Walk: Mewtwo/Charizard-->Yoshi/Roy (1.2->1.15)
Run: Ike/Wario-->Megaman (1.5->1.45)
Air:Bowser/Robin->Bayo/WFT (1->0.97)

 

[Prophet06]

K

btw, yes, Pikachu's spread among Top tiers is pretty decent, but then he loses to a lot of High and Mid Tiers, which leads to inconsistency.

i wouldn't say loses to a lot? Maybe ness and I don't really agree with Luigi tbh I think dtilt and quick attack make the matchup super ok. Who else really convincingly?