Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[~ Gheb ~]

Marth does not have the accomplishments to justify such a high placing right now. He still has at least Toon Link, Mega Man and Villager ahead of him before we get into top 10 territory.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

The big question that presents is who would he knock out of the top 10?

Out of the top 10. These 3 seemed to be having issues keeping the same consistent results they have gotten in the past

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Have you seen ZSS' results at majors lately? If anything she's on the rise again after people - who would've guessed - overestimated the extent by which she got hurt by nerfs.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Well is regards to Rosa and ZSS. We have seen thier respective best mains (Dabuz and Nairo) having to result to using their secondaries and other pocket characters to win certiam MU's and get high placings in competitons more and more recently. This is also slightly true with ANTI in regards to Mario

 

[~ Gheb ~]

OK, before we even continue this debate - can we please all just agree that right now ZSS is clearly a better character than Marth and that any discussion about the contrary possibly being the case is nothing but an utter waste of time? If you really wanna speulate on something like that you can count me out

 

[HoSmash4]

Rosalina. For me

Ok it's good to look at it from a matchup perspective.

What Matchups does Marth lose? Fox and Sonic?

 

[Sleek Media]

Out of the top 10. These 3 seemed to be having issues keeping the same consistent results they have gotten in the past

+1 for recognizing Rosa's vulnerability.

Regarding Bayo SDI, I'm still only seeing talk about a single ESAM performance. Would love to see some evidence that you can SDI out with other characters and not get frametrapped or something anyway.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Rosalina. For me

Ok it's good to look at it from a matchup perspective.

What Matchups does Marth lose? Fox and Sonic?

Sheik and Diddy. Possibly Pika as well but I haven't explored it much more after Marth's jab has progressed in usage over the past few months. The Sheik matchup especially is just awful. Might be one of those trends she has in any game where she's good.

 

[Deleted member]

Rosalina. For me

Ok it's good to look at it from a matchup perspective.

What Matchups does Marth lose? Fox and Sonic?

Mewtwo, Sheik and Diddy are others.

 

[Sleek Media]

OK, before we even continue this debate - can we please all just agree that right now ZSS is clearly a better character than Marth and that any discussion about the contrary possibly being the case is nothing but an utter waste of time? If you really wanna speulate on something like that you can count me out

Honestly I don't have an opinion on this one way or the other. Why is 1.1.6 ZSS objectively better than Marth?

 

[Goombo]

The Sheik matchup especially is just awful. Might be one of those trends she has in any game where she's good.

You ... are aware what happened last night to Mr R?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Armorless Space Bounty Hunter is superior to Warrior King of Heroic Lineage due to stuff.

Stuff like

Grab conversions and something something kinda sorta almost free disadvantage

 

[Ziodyne 21]

+1 for recognizing Rosa's vulnerability.

Regarding Bayo SDI, I'm still only seeing talk about a single ESAM performance. Would love to see some evidence that you can SDI out with other characters and not get frametrapped or something anyway.

Lol that's what I have been saying .ONE player did it Perfectly somehow at ONE tournament and suddenly the board is like. SDI always reks Bayo now !! she no top 10 now lolz!.

 

[FeelMeUp]

You ... are aware what happened last night to Mr R?

Remember back when prepatch Sheik had a -2 MU against Diddy because ZeRo was 100000-0 on Sheiks?
Oh.....wait.....

 

[Fenny]

Marth has a pretty subpar disadvantage but an excellent advantage when used right

In contrast, ZSS has one of the best punish games amongst even the top tiers and a disadvantage about as existent as ESAM's hairline because Flip Kick is hella stupid, on top of possessing amongst the best mobility in the game overall

Whoever Marth may displace in the future (emphasis on 'may'), I seriously doubt ZSS will be one of them.

 

[Goombo]

Remember back when prepatch Sheik had a -2 MU against Diddy because ZeRo was 100000-0 on Sheiks?
Oh.....wait.....

Leo has a solid lead in the matchup vs Mr R, Mr E took him to game 5 last time they played and False has won a best of 7 vs Void, which was the only time they played.

I'm not saying Marth wins the matchup and agree we need more data (like Void vs Leo), but thats just not what an "awful" matchup is supposed to look like.

 

[Y2Kay]

Well Leo also beat with Mr. R with Metaknight, but almost all other MKs seriously struggled against her. Tyrant almost dropped MK just because of that match up.

Leo has a tendency to make tough match ups look easier than they really are because he's straight up better than most people.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

The big question that presents is who would he knock out of the top 10?

Isn't ZSS dying?
EDIT: Nevermind

Isn't Rosa dying?

 

[Vyrnx]

Lol that's what I have been saying .ONE player did it Perfectly somehow at ONE tournament and suddenly the board is like. SDI always reks Bayo now !! she no top 10 now lolz!.

Nobody is saying she isn't top ten.

Das Koopa probably knows, but hasn't either Marss or Nairo been in top 8 at almost every major of 2016 they've gone to? I think there was just one where Marss was ninth and Nairo lost early.

Edit: Actually at Evo Marss got ninth and Nairo got 13th, CEO Nairo got 17th and Marss and Nick Riddle got 25th.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Mr. R's record against MK Leo is as bad as it is because he still plays the opposite way you should against Marth/MK. I'm surprised he doesn't get 2 stocked every game. His openings and deaths usually come from things like this:

• Overextending with Bouncing Fish
• Punishing incorrectly(Ftilt in the wrong direction, throw>bf instead of throw>aerial for stage control, actually challenging Marth offstage at up b range, etc)
• Using WAY too much rising fair and getting punished because Marth has a sword and fast grounded punish options
• Trying to land on Leo even though you have the best ledge reset character in the game
• Throwing out extra aerials when he could be waiting instead(it's exceptionally bad with bair. His success rate on the move is atrocious)
• Dashing too much(I don't know why, but he literally never walks. I can count the # of times he does vs Leo on one hand)
• Never using needles and always approaching Marth
• Constantly dropping combo conversions and being outdamaged by Marth as a result(link below shows this as well)
• His rolls: https://youtu.be/NSp_6xWHc4Y?t=5m30s. I don't need to say much else.

etc
Hate to look like I'm johning for the Sheik player, but Mr. R seriously looks lost every time he plays the kid.
I don't even know why he plays Sheik against Leo anymore, as almost everything he does is what you should not be.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Leo has a solid lead in the matchup vs Mr R, Mr E took him to game 5 last time they played and False has won a best of 7 vs Void, which was the only time they played.

I'm not saying Marth wins the matchup and agree we need more data (like Void vs Leo), but thats just not what an "awful" matchup is supposed to look like.

Oh my god THIS.

It isn't just Leo doing well, there's Mr. E too. They're both placing really well lately. Marth's record against Sheik has been amazing this entire patch.

I don't think Marth wins, I think it's pretty close to even but Marth definitely has all the tools necessary to beat Sheik. More data is always helpful of course and I would love to see a Marth (preferably Leo) vs VoiD a couple times. A Sheik with possibly a more consistent punish game against Marth would be nice to see.

And while I don't think that Marth is top 10, I do think he should be considered for it. As others have said, I think he's chillin' around the 11th and 12th spots with Meta Knight. What will really be interesting to me to see is how Marth does if another Toon Link begins to shine or when Hyuga returns. I think we need some more data on that match up as well.

 

[my_T]

For those that think Rosa is going down, who does she really struggle against? and...who else?



and Villager is definitely not ahead of Marth. Ranai is the only Villager main with significant accomplishments, he's an anomaly, other Villager mains pale in comparison. Marth has two players making waves with him at top level; one solo and the other with secondaries



If anybody is dropping out of top ten it will most likely be Mario. He just has too many difficult MU's compared to other top tiers:

These MU's are clearly losing for Mario:
()

These are debatably even or losing for Mario:


Ally has had a spotty record this year despite all of his success. Anti's record this year is also spotty along with heavy secondary usage

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Rosa's not going anywhere as long as Luma is around.

And I don't know about Mario he may lose a few MUs (Going even isn't a bad thing) is Shiek still considered evenish? How does his Bayonetta MU look? If those two are good/decent he already gets a one up on alot of characters in the game.

 

[Rizen]

For those that think Rosa is going down, who does she really struggle against? and...who else?

How does beat ? Not saying you're wrong, just curious.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Anyone that can claim to go at least even against will always be relevant in the current meta

The vs MU had gotten better for Mario over time. To where a lot of Mario and Rosa mains think the MU is close to or even now
I think the MU vs is around even now after her nerfs isnt it? and are kind of debatable

 

[my_T]

How does beat ? Not saying you're wrong, just curious.

That was a mistake, he wasn't supposed to be there. I do feel that Falcon vs Rosa is even though, certainly not a character Rosa can brush off like so many others in the roster

 

[Shady Shaymin]

What does Mario even do against Rosa in the neutral tbh? Bair? I just don't understand how such a stubby, grappling-based character can possibly contest such ridiculous hitboxes and stage control. Granted, offstage is probably pretty good for Mario, so maybe that evens it up. What do results say?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Falcon kills Luma for free and Rosalina is at death percent around 50. If Falcon players start actually optimizing him instead of just going for hype **** I can see it being in his favor

 

[The-Technique]

Are people sleeping on ZSS again? That one character that makes top 8 at almost every major? Or are we still memeing about how Nairo is inconsistent (watch him post another smackdown reply in this thread lol)

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Are people sleeping on ZSS again? That one character that makes top 8 at almost every major? Or are we still memeing about how Nairo is inconsistent (watch him post another smackdown reply in this thread lol)

No one is saying Nairo is inconsistent, far from it. Dude can make look like a top tier threat and even make look great for crying out loud.

Nairio is using pocket characters for certian MU's more though.

 

[my_T]

Anyone thst can claim to go at least even against will always be relevant in the current meta

The vs MU had gotten better for Mario over time. To where a lot of Mario and Rosa mains think the MU is close to or even now
I think the MU vs is around even now after her nerfs isnt it? and are kind of debatable

Diddy/Mario is at least even for Mario? Zinonoto and Zero have both beaten Anti's Mario quite convincingly. Anti's Mario went 0-3 vs Zinoto in grand finals at CEO, 0-3 vs Zero at Abadango Saga and 0-4 vs Zero at TBH6 in grand finals. Anti beat Zero 3-1 in winners finals but the sets I mentioned certainly stand out and go against the notion that Mario goes at least even with Diddy. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't recall Diddy ever losing this bad in the MU

I'm going to need Mario to take more than one set off of Rosa before I even think about calling this MU even

I don't see how ZSS is even now either. They toned down her ladder combo and toned down her nair which is still very good. And Ally still hasn't beaten Nairo's ZSS yet

and are debatable MU's but ...nah

Top Marios have been losing to Peaches for ages lol

Oh and let's not forget that Ally is just dumb good. His skill is obviously a factor in Marios success

 

[Nobie]

Diddy/Mario is at least even for Mario? Zinonoto and Zero have both beaten Anti's Mario quite convincingly. Anti's Mario went 0-3 vs Zinoto in grand finals at CEO, 0-3 vs Zero at Abadango Saga and 0-4 vs Zero at TBH6 in grand finals. Anti beat Zero 3-1 in winners finals but the sets I mentioned certainly stand out and go against the notion that Mario goes at least even with Diddy. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't recall Diddy ever losing this bad in the MU

I'm going to need Mario to take more than one set off of Rosa before I even think about calling this MU even

I don't see how ZSS is even now either. They toned down her ladder combo and toned down her nair which is still very good. And Ally still hasn't beaten Nairo's ZSS yet

and are debatable MU's but ...nah

Top Marios have been losing to Peaches for ages lol

Oh and let's not forget that Ally is just dumb good. His skill is obviously a factor in Marios success

Keep in mind that one of Zinoto's most frequent opponents is Ally. He has tons of Mario experience, and Anti's tendency to counterpick as opposed to stick with a given main means his Mario has a few holes that Ally's doesn't. Zinoto just knows the matchup.

But then you flip the script over and look at Ally and Zinoto, where Ally has the upper hand. Diddy's a strong character, but if there's any character who can keep up with Diddy's superb frame data and good mobility, it's Mario.

I think one of the factors that isn't taken into account when it comes to how well Mario does or doesn't do is that, even if the character has definable weaknesses, he also has the tools to overcome those weaknesses. I don't mean that he can negate theme (like how Diddy Kong is supposed to be slow in the air but then Monkey Flip + b-reverse says "what"), but that even when the opponent and the player are aware of what Mario can't do, there's enough of what Mario "CAN" do that lets him overcome the odds. Mario can take small risks over and over and over, and with the right brain behind the wheels, it means a character whose weaknesses can be well compensated for with smart play.

 

[DanGR]

What does Mario even do against Rosa in the neutral tbh? Bair? I just don't understand how such a stubby, grappling-based character can possibly contest such ridiculous hitboxes and stage control. Granted, offstage is probably pretty good for Mario, so maybe that evens it up. What do results say?

These ridiculous hitboxes you speak of have hurtboxes as well.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Diddy/Mario is at least even for Mario? Zinonoto and Zero have both beaten Anti's Mario quite convincingly. Anti's Mario went 0-3 vs Zinoto in grand finals at CEO, 0-3 vs Zero at Abadango Saga and 0-4 vs Zero at TBH6 in grand finals. Anti beat Zero 3-1 in winners finals but the sets I mentioned certainly stand out and go against the notion that Mario goes at least even with Diddy. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't recall Diddy ever losing this bad in the MU

I'm going to need Mario to take more than one set off of Rosa before I even think about calling this MU even

I don't see how ZSS is even now either. They toned down her ladder combo and toned down her nair which is still very good. And Ally still hasn't beaten Nairo's ZSS yet

and are debatable MU's but ...nah

Top Marios have been losing to Peaches for ages lol

Oh and let's not forget that Ally is just dumb good. His skill is obviously a factor in Marios success

Funny how you mentioned that Ally is just "dumb good" to argue against Mario apparent non-success in the MU but not about ZeRo being dumb, dumb dumb dumb DUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMB!!!!! good to being a factor to Diddy's success in the MU?

 

[Sleek Media]

Are we really still stuck on simple thinking like "Rosa will be top ten forever because Luma"? What, ESAM SDI'd out of a few WT combos in one tournament so now Bayo is totally managable and we should never get combo'd hard, but Luma is still a mythic threat? We haven't figured out how it works yet, when it can and cannot act, and which moves instantly KO it?

Rosa is good, but can't you feel the difference in pressure fighting her compared to ? Don't you feel like you have more control over the pace of the game, even when Luma is present?

 

[my_T]

Nobie one of Anti's frequent training partners is Zero so I don't think either of them has an edge in MU experience, though Anti's wide variety of character usage cannot be overlooked

and Ziodyne 21 Zero is also dumb good but Zinoto also managed to shut down Anti's Mario as well so what about him?

 

[irokex13]

Rosa is good, but can't you feel the difference in pressure fighting her compared to ? Don't you feel like you have more control over the pace of the game, even when Luma is present?

That's probably because she's not a pressure based character. Rosalina isn't trying to overwhelm opponents with speed. Controlling the pace of the game is one of her biggest things. She's a defensive wall that can control a lot of space.

 

[ぱみゅ]

DId you guys actually watch UGC, or are just quoting others on ESAM's succeeding at SDI'ing?
because this other player/matchup used it very effectively:

Bayo players know how important SDI and DI mixups are, we know what options are available or not at different points, and we also notice when the opponent is not mixing up and just DI'ing the same direction and punish accordingly, like any player in a competition should.

 

[|RK|]

DId you guys actually watch UGC, or are just quoting others on ESAM's succeeding at SDI'ing?
because this other player/matchup used it very effectively:

Bayo players know how important SDI and DI mixups are, we know what options are available or not at different points, and we also notice when the opponent is not mixing up and just DI'ing the same direction and punish accordingly, like any player in a competition should.

Thank you for posting this. Mentioned this match a while back, but it looks like everyone forgot it happened. And Mega Man is very much a fast faller.

 

[HoSmash4]

Tyrant always keeps it very competitive vs Sheiks as MK, I think Sheik MK is even as well