Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Poisonous]

I was under the impression that the issue wasn't that you couldn't SDI out of her combos, but that even if you SDI'd she could follow up if she reacted to it on time.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I was under the impression that the issue wasn't that you couldn't SDI out of her combos, but that even if you SDI'd she could follow up if she reacted to it on time.

That was the issue. Which again I feel goes back to "Pika is a smaller target so he gets out sooner (thus can move farther away) and is more difficult to hit with said follow ups due to his size". And, ya know, Quick Attack to get away after SDIing out potentially.

Not many characters truly fit that list of requirements to fully abuse SDI against Bayonetta. Fox is light and not particularly large but due to his fall speed he actually borderline can't SDI out at all. MK, Jigglypuff, Toon Link are characters I think of off of the top of my head that might be able to do similar. Seeing as Toon Link was already listed as one of Bayo's more difficult match ups thats pretty great for him in particular.

Still doesn't help the majority of characters much I feel though.

 

[|RK|]

ESAM's video on Bayos changes post-patch show him SDI-ing Witch Twist as Fox for free.

And excuse my ignorance - but what can Bayo follow up with if you SDI, exactly? I've seen Salem adapt to SDI the *second* time he does a combo by predicting your SDI after the first... but I've never seen him - or any other Bayo - keep up a conversion once it's been SDI'd.

 

[Sleek Media]

Um...correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't SDI just mashing the smash stick? I keep seeing comments about "mastering SDI" or "learning SDI" like there's something complex going on here, but all you do is just mash away from the hurtbox. Why is there some notion that people don't understand this? Is it that they are expected to mash more rapidly or something?

With Bayo specifically, SDI only gets you so far. There's a big difference between escapability with Kirby and escaping with Rosa, but what does that even matter? Bayo can read your SDI on reaction and change her ABK/WT choices to keep you in the combo. Why are we still pretending that we could get out with just 10% damage if only we git gud with SDI?

Even if you could SDI reliably with most characters, her combo game is still absolute garbage design that ruins the game for mid level players and below, which contrary to popular belief here, matters a lot. Smash is supposed to be enjoyable at all levels of play, and even if it turns out that you can train yourself to play like a machine and overcome her insane kit, she's still poison for the casuals. I don't see her avoiding the nerf bat when the Switch version rolls around.

 

[Kung Fu Treachery]

Aba is talking about footstool out of shield, not Nair, which is one of the fastest OoS-options existing.



As a gereral observation, while a lot of good characters have suffered much from Bayos and Clouds introduction to the game (rip Villager), quite the opposite seems to be true for Pikachu, who seems to have a top 5 matchup vs both of them. That's a pretty big thing to have in the current metagame.

Ah, yeah. I don't know why it never occurred to me that you could just skip the Nair. Makes sense. I guess that kinda invalidates the thing about countering cross ups, though (unless you do use the Nair).

And yeah, Pika struggled when Sheik was undisputed top dog, since his edge guarding acumen wasn't useful at all against her. Against Cloud, Esam regularly shows us how good Pika is off stage. Edge guarding isn't as important for the Bayo matchup (moreso than with Sheik, though), but being a small target is apparently a big deal. The biggest thing for my money is that Esam is hitting his Thunder conversions regularly, though. The game is about buckets.

 

[Bowserboy3]

The end of this particular game (video starts near it) is the best thing I've seen all day: https://youtu.be/FcRFAwDNNfg?t=779

Likely just because it's Villager.

He's there, pumping his fist in the air. He just doesn't give a f***!

On the topic of Villager, I rarely see him played much, despite all his results. Perhaps it's just his lack of notable players... or just ones that travel a lot. There's Ranai, Aarvark... pretty sure there's a European Villager, right? And I'm pretty sure Luigimitsu here in the UK reps the old Villager too...

Edit: Holy shi*, that last game.

 

[Deleted member]

The end of this particular game (video starts near it) is the best thing I've seen all day: https://youtu.be/FcRFAwDNNfg?t=779

Likely just because it's Villager.

He's there, pumping his fist in the air. He just doesn't give a f***!

On the topic of Villager, I rarely see him played much, despite all his results. Perhaps it's just his lack of notable players... or just ones that travel a lot. There's Ranai, Aarvark... pretty sure there's a European Villager, right? And I'm pretty sure Luigimitsu here in the UK reps the old Villager too...

Edit: Holy shi*, that last game.

Other notable Villagers would include MJG and SS. They both have secondaries though. SS secondaries while MJG secondaries .

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Um...correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't SDI just mashing the smash stick? I keep seeing comments about "mastering SDI" or "learning SDI" like there's something complex going on here, but all you do is just mash away from the hurtbox. Why is there some notion that people don't understand this? Is it that they are expected to mash more rapidly or something?

With Bayo specifically, SDI only gets you so far. There's a big difference between escapability with Kirby and escaping with Rosa, but what does that even matter? Bayo can read your SDI on reaction and change her ABK/WT choices to keep you in the combo. Why are we still pretending that we could get out with just 10% damage if only we git gud with SDI?

Even if you could SDI reliably with most characters, her combo game is still absolute garbage design that ruins the game for mid level players and below, which contrary to popular belief here, matters a lot. Smash is supposed to be enjoyable at all levels of play, and even if it turns out that you can train yourself to play like a machine and overcome her insane kit, she's still poison for the casuals. I don't see her avoiding the nerf bat when the Switch version rolls around.

Yes essentially SDI is just mashing your control stick during hit stun in the desired direction you wish to be launched, when people say "master" SDI usually people refer to knowing when to SDI a move, the angle you should be mashing and of course good mashing form. For example on some multiple hit moves each hit box is separate and may have different launch angles, if I recall correctly ROB's up air is like this where all but the last hit box launches you in a certain direction and you essentially need to DI one direction for the first couple hit boxes and then switch to the opposite for the last hitbox to get the greatest chance of surviving the move.

I don't know a lot about Bayo's launch angles on her multi hit move hitboxes but if switching your direction of SDI mid move helps escape easier for your character then that would be "mastery" of SDI. Like how it's easier for Fox to just DI down and out to escape Mario's up tilt-a-thon while a more floaty character might find it easier to just DI up and away.

Now granted not all characters are going to be able to get out of her ladder combos as easy or at all, character attributes all play a great deal even with optimal SDI. For the time being it seems as if characters with similar attributes to Pikachu have it the easiest.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Edit: Holy shi*, that last game.

you mean this one?

Did the gentleman's rule actually get abolished?

 

[|RK|]

Um...correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't SDI just mashing the smash stick? I keep seeing comments about "mastering SDI" or "learning SDI" like there's something complex going on here, but all you do is just mash away from the hurtbox. Why is there some notion that people don't understand this? Is it that they are expected to mash more rapidly or something?

With Bayo specifically, SDI only gets you so far. There's a big difference between escapability with Kirby and escaping with Rosa, but what does that even matter? Bayo can read your SDI on reaction and change her ABK/WT choices to keep you in the combo. Why are we still pretending that we could get out with just 10% damage if only we git gud with SDI?

Even if you could SDI reliably with most characters, her combo game is still absolute garbage design that ruins the game for mid level players and below, which contrary to popular belief here, matters a lot. Smash is supposed to be enjoyable at all levels of play, and even if it turns out that you can train yourself to play like a machine and overcome her insane kit, she's still poison for the casuals. I don't see her avoiding the nerf bat when the Switch version rolls around.

We saw ESAM do exactly that this weekend. And alterations from her original combo don't do nearly as much. I keep hearing about changing the combo on reaction, but I've never seen it. Not in Dabuz vs CaptainZack, not in ESAM vs Salem, not in Salem vs Kameme... is there a clip demonstrating what you're talking about?

 

[Game7a1]

you mean this one?

Did the gentleman's rule actually get abolished?

Not exactly. The Gentlemen's Rule changed. Quoting ssbwiki, it used to be that any stage could be gentlemen'd.
But, with the new Genesis 4 rule-set people are adopting, any legal stage can be gentlemen'd (or in the assumed case, players agreeing to go back to a stage in which the counterpicker won on previously in the set). So the players in the video are wrong to pick Pilotwings if 2GG adopted the G4 rule-set, which is very likely.

 

[Rizen]

Not exactly. The Gentlemen's Rule changed. Quoting ssbwiki, it used to be that any stage could be gentlemen'd.
But, with the new Genesis 4 rule-set people are adopting, any legal stage can be gentlemen'd (or in the ideal case, players agreeing to go back to a stage in which the counterpicker won on previously in the set). So the players in the video are wrong to pick Pilotwings if 2GG adopted the G4 rule-set, which is very likely.

Why for the grace of all things holy would anyone ever pick Pilot Wings?!

I can see up and downsides to the new rule but have to admit it makes events run smoother with less discrepancies.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

So the general consensus I am seeing is that Bayo is still likely at least top 5 In most people's eyes. Guess it makes sense altough ESAM's SDI really did a number on Bayo at UGC. We cannot really look at the results of one mJor say that "Oh Bayo has been exposed now and SDI will always beat her"

We will have to see what the future holds. Can ESAM can now be consistent his godlike SDI and if and will other pro players can learn SDI at his level too

Plus we have seen before how many pro Bayo mains were able to adapt thieir gameplans and able to deal with SDI before "countering" Bayo counterplay before so it could very well happen again. We will just have to wait and see

 

[Shaya]

SDI isn't a skill of just mashing the stick in one direction.

It's also the anticipation to start it early, or more precisely at the right time.
That's why a lot of multi hit moves have a starting 'launcher' hit, you aren't reacting to the hit lag of these things and getting the appropriate SDI input, you are either getting lucky or knowing you're about to be hit, what you're about to get hit by, and get those inputs in.

People will get better at DI against Bayo's combos as time goes on anyway, because instead of people reacting with panic, they'll know exactly what they're about to get hit by in advance and preempt the inputs necessary.
Falling out of grounded Witch Twist is pretty feasible if you are definitely getting hit by the first strike, as there's more frames gap between the first hit and the rest of the hits (well, the initial hit is 1f hitbox [I believe?] vs the others having no hitbox gaps albeit it 4f gaps between hits). If you're getting caught mid-witch twist you likely aren't really going anywhere. That's the type of thing Bayo players will adapt or adjust to, as getting a guaranteed 8f hit confirm isn't drastically worse than 4f when the move itself has locomotion.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Peach auto-losing to sword characters is a meme. are the really bad MUs out of the ones you posted

Never said Peach auto-loses to Swordies. Thank you for jumping to conclusions. Bad match up =/= Auto-loss. Still doesn't make it not a bad match up, and Cloud and Marth definitely are bad match ups for Peach, especially Cloud.

You know what else has kinda become a meme? Saying something is a meme. Memeception.

 

[Jams.]

4: Pronounced weaknesses to the point of being heavily flawed


5: Heavily flawed outright

I'm curious why you decided to put in the fourth category instead of the fifth. To me, he seems like he'd fit better in the fifth category considering the characters there. His difficulties in disadvantage are comparable to Ike, DK, and Bowser, and what he gains there he loses in his advantage state (assuming proper DI on uair). He plays a zoning based neutral instead of having to approach in most MUs, but his neutral can be exposed by proper powershielding. He does have stronger results than the characters in the category below him, but I don't feel like he's superior to them if only considering character attributes.

 

[Das Koopa]

for anyone interested, Japan's average placement scores among their best 5 players

1st: Abadango (6.7)
2nd: Komorikiri (7.32)
3rd: KEN (7.33)
4th: Kameme (8.6)
5th: Ranai (9)

Their positions will change based on sets taken at a later point, but there's an interesting fact. I ended up using all tournaments, not just category 2/higher.

I'm curious why you decided to put in the fourth category instead of the fifth. To me, he seems like he'd fit better in the fifth category considering the characters there. His difficulties in disadvantage are comparable to Ike, DK, and Bowser, and what he gains there he loses in his advantage state (assuming proper DI on uair). He plays a zoning based neutral instead of having to approach in most MUs, but his neutral can be exposed by proper powershielding. He does have stronger results than the characters in the category below him, but I don't feel like he's superior to them if only considering character attributes.

I'm uncharacteristically optimistic in thinking that R.O.B is probably better than the lower-mid tier section of things. But you're right. Even at low/mid levels of play, R.O.B has an atrocious disadvantage state, can't land easy, and it seems like measured aggressive play can easily counter him and his best tools are hilariously exploitable.

I might like Mega Man more if I wanted a projectile-based character but he requires a lot of work to stay polished/good so I've mostly stuck to trying to perfect Meta Knight's punishes. Or just play Cloud when I lose to a spammy Link then throw my console out a window when they gimp me

 

[The-Technique]

I think Robin belongs in the 4th category, since she has placed close to or in some cases higher than ROB in majors. ROB overall has a greater presence in top 64 or higher at most majors but its mostly due to the larger representation that ROB has compared to Robin, who really only has a handful of relevant players atm.

Majors in 2016 with Robin and ROB present in top 64

Genesis 3 (1096 entrants):
Jerm (Robin) 33rd
Mister Eric (ROB) 49th

FOW Saga (356 entrants):
Shinta (Robin) 25th
Wiigi (ROB) 17th

Pound 2016 (513 entrants):
Mr. II 33rd
Mister Eric 25th

GOML (489 entrants):
Raziek 25th
Holy (ROB) 17th

Low Tier City (317 entrants):
Jerm 13th
Gyo 17th

CEO 2016 (906 entrants):
Dath 17th
8Bitman 33rd

Shine 2016 (483 entrants):
Dath 3rd
Rafi-X 17th

 

[~ Gheb ~]

for anyone interested, Japan's average placement scores among their best 5 players

1st: Abadango (6.7)
2nd: Komorikiri (7.32)
3rd: KEN (7.33)
4th: Kameme (8.6)
5th: Ranai (9)

Their positions will change based on sets taken at a later point, but there's an interesting fact. I ended up using all tournaments, not just category 2/higher.

What tournaments are these numbers based on?

 

[Das Koopa]

What tournaments are these numbers based on?

Copy-pasted from my word document

Spoiler: Abadango, Ranai, Komorikiri, KEN, Kameme

2 Good Gaming (2GG) | Komorikiri

Category 4: 10
EVO 2016: 17th
The Big House 6: 3rd

Category 3: 7.8
Umebura S.A.T: 13th
2GGT: Abadango Saga: 5th
Smashdown World: 1st

Category 2: 8.5
Sumabato 9: 13th
KSB 2016: 2nd
Sumabato 10: 17th
Sumabato 11: 1st
Sumabato for THE BIG HOUSE: 1st
Sumabato 12: 1st
Mega Smash Mondays 67: 1st
Sumabato 14: 7th
Little Big House 2: 9th

Category 1: 3
Karisuma 8: 1st
PSG Classic: 2nd


AVERAGE PLACEMENT: 7.32




Luminosity Gaming (LG) | Abadango

Category 4: 6.2
CEO 2016: 4th
EVO 2016: 5th
Super Smash Con: 7th
The Big House 5: 9th


Category 3: 9
Pound 2016: 1st
Umebura S.A.T.: 13th
2GGT: Abadango Saga: 13th
UGC Smash Open: 2nd


Category 2: 7.9
Umebura 22: 2nd
Midwest Mayhem 2: 3rd
Battle Arena Melbourne 8: 2nd
Umebura 23: 33rd
Smash N” Splash: 5th
PPT Summer: 1st
Clutch City Clash: 1st
Umebura 25: 2nd
Mega Smash Mondays 67: 5th
Little Big House 2: 2nd
TUS Tournament 6: 1st
Waseda Festival 2016: 9th
DNG Kanto Invitational: 3rd

Category 1: 4
TUSTournament 4: 1st
TSC 4: 3rd

AVERAGE PLACEMENT: 6.7



DetonatioN Gaming (DTN) | Kameme

Sumabato 11 and Umebura 24 excluded due to sandbagging.

Category 4: 7.5
EVO 2016: 2nd
The Big House 6: 13th

Category 3: 8.7
Umebura S.A.T.: 4th
Smashdown World 2016: 4th
UGC Smash Open: 13th

Category 2: 5.7
Umebura 22: 4th
KSB 2016: 1st
Umebura 25: 1st
Little Big House 2: 4th
TUS Tournament 6: 3rd
DNG Kanto Invitational: 10th

Category 1: 12.6
TUS Tournament 4: 3rd
Kurobura 1: 1st
PSG Classic 2016: 7th
TUS Tournament 5: 17th
TSC4: 7th
Waseda Festival 2016: 3rd

AVERAGE PLACEMENT: 8.6




KEN

Category 4: 13
EVO 2016: 13th

Category 3: 1.25
Umebura S.A.T: 1st

Category 2: 8.6
Umebura 22: 1st
KSB 2016: 3rd
Umebura 23: 17th
Umebura 24: 5th
Umebura 25: 9th
TUS Tournament 6: 2nd
Waseda Festival 2016: 1st
DNG Kanto Invitational: 8th

Category 1: 6.5
TUS Tournament 4: 4th
TUS Tournament 5: 3rd
PSG Classic 2016: 3rd
Toryumon 1: 3rd


AVERAGE PLACEMENT: 7.33



Ranai

Category 4: 5
EVO 2016: 5th

Category 3: 16.2
Umebura S.A.T: 13th

Category 2: 7.5
KSB 2016: 9th
Sumabato 14: 1st

Category 1: 7
Fukui Smashfest: 3rd
Karisuma 11: 4th


AVERAGE PLACEMENT: 9

Scoring system so far functions like this;

Category 4 tournies a player participated in are averaged together. This is the base score. Every descending category, for the mean average, an additional 25% is added (reflecting how I increase points by category). All category scores are averaged together for a final score/placement.

This has worked well in the creation of a pretty accurate list so far. The only outliers start to happen when no data exists for one Category. MKLeo hasn't participated in a Supermajor, so his average ended up being the second best score (4.3) so I just added 25% to the total score as a balancing factor for the time being (puts him at 5.3, still a very, very, very high score). It doesn't have the 700+ entrant number, but ZeRo Saga will likely be counted as a Supermajor in the player rankings, at least, so that'll fix the issue in his case.

The purpose of this is to help create a base for scoring how much points a player gets for taking sets off of certain players.

My resources are my database, the Japanese Compendium, Smashrecord, and Smashwiki. I'm avoiding weeklies unless a major player participated, and the categorization for off-database tournaments will stay at 1 for weeklies I do end up including and 2 for events that have high skill pools but low entrants. I put Rio, Olympus, and Kanto Inv. as C2s, for example

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Do you have numbers for Earth by any chance? I wouldn't be surprised if they were top 5 material.

 

[Das Koopa]

Earth's numbers

Spoiler: 33 ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Category 4: 9
EVO 2016: 9th

Category 3: 21.2
Umebura S.A.T: 17th

Category 2: 17.2
Sumabato 9: 4th
Umebura 22: 33rd
KSB 2016: 7th
Umebura 23: 33rd
Sumabato 10: 1st
Sumabato 11: 5th
Sumabato for the Big House: 33rd
Sumabato 12: 4th
Umebura 25: 9th
Sumabato 13: 5th
Sumabato 14: 2nd
Waseda Festival 2016: 2nd

Category 1: 6.4
Karisuma 6: 9th
PSG Classic 2016: 1st
Nagobura: 1st
Karisuma 8: 3rd
Karisuma 11: 2nd

AVERAGE PLACEMENT: 13.4

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Those 33rd placings are nasty ...

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Das Koopa What is Lucas's major weakness that can make him heavily flawed?

 

[jet56]

The complete lack of Toon Link in top 15 is baffling. Character's right on par with Villager and Mega Man.



Bro, do you even know what a recovery is?!?

I like to live life on the edge, with no guarantee of snapping the ledge. I enjoy playing characters that look like top tier monsters, until they are put off stage to show they are imposters.

I am also super excited for zero saga, it's going to be a great way to end the year, and a good preview for what G4 is going to look like.

 

[verbatim]

Das Koopa What is Lucas's major weakness that can make him heavily flawed?

Platform camping. Sheik can jump around the battlefield platforms for 6 minutes and win if she wants to. Pretty much every other character except for Mac has a strong aerial that can poke from under platforms or a command grab or some other way to play around this strategy.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

We can use our up-tilts to poke through battlefield's side platforms.

 

[Murlough]

We can use our up-tilts to poke through battlefield's side platforms.

...the point is you can't catch Sheik when she is running away. What you said won't change that...

 

[Das Koopa]

Das Koopa What is Lucas's major weakness that can make him heavily flawed?

Like has been mentioned, he gets camped out pretty easy. He's not bad, PK Fire is a good spacing tool. His recovery (while not fantastic) is versatile if sometimes exploitable and he has a hilariously good grab/punish game. I stopped using him a loooong time ago but I always felt he was under-rated for a while.

 

[Sleek Media]

I don't consider "gets camped out by Shiek" to be a character-defining weakness. That's like 3/4 of the cast, including a number of top 20 characters. How does Ike corner Shiek on BF? Ryu? Villager?

I'm interested in hearing what Lucas' actual weaknesses are. Not talking "Shiek outspaces him", I mean an actual weakness in his game that any character can take advantage of, like Ness' PKT leaving him vulnerable to gimps. Speaking of Ness, besides killing with bThrow, what advantage does he have over Lucas? I see him higher than Lucas on most tier lists, and I don't get it. Lucas seems to be almost totally superior.

 

[Deleted member]

Ness has much better raw kill power over Lucas. SHAC aerials and having a great dash/pivot grab also help.

 

[AusJJV]

I don't consider "gets camped out by Shiek" to be a character-defining weakness. That's like 3/4 of the cast, including a number of top 20 characters. How does Ike corner Shiek on BF? Ryu? Villager?

I'm interested in hearing what Lucas' actual weaknesses are. Not talking "Shiek outspaces him", I mean an actual weakness in his game that any character can take advantage of, like Ness' PKT leaving him vulnerable to gimps. Speaking of Ness, besides killing with bThrow, what advantage does he have over Lucas? I see him higher than Lucas on most tier lists, and I don't get it. Lucas seems to be almost totally superior.

Actually, imo as someone who plays as both, there isn't actually much that sets them apart for me. For Ness, his PKT2, although worse as a recovery move compared to Lucas, can kill at insanely early percents, and he's overall one with much better aerials in neutral. His n-air is great alongside f-air, which autocancels in a short hop if timed correctly. His u-air is MUCH better by itself, but Lucas has that grab, which I'll get into later. However, Ness needs to get in to do any real damage, and he has always had a bad time with disjoints, which overall ruins him, as he gets spaced out by swordsmen mainly.

Lucas on the other hand has some trouble killing (it's not bad but it is flawed to a certain extent.) Lucas doesnt have the early kill potential compared to Ness, other than his u-smash, which we barely use, unless punishing something extremely laggy. Lucas' PKT2 is better for recovery, he also has a tether, which helps as well, making his MUCH better than Ness'. However, Lucas relies on spacing with z-air and PK Fire, which are great tools. He only goes in when he wants a grab, really. I personally utilise Lucas tilts a lot, unlike Ness. Lucas' aerials are more combo tools rather than for neutral (other than f-air, which in itself is also a combo finisher), but none of his aerials reliably autocancel, unlike Ness. Lucas grab is worse, but his punish off a grab is unarguably better than Ness. But Lucas overall had a much better time with disjoints, thanks to his spacing tools.

Sorry if this was very unorganized, if you guys have any more questions I'll be glad to answer

Edit:

Ness Weaknesses:
• gets rekt by swordies
• that recovery ew
• might need to get methodical and defensive in neutral if needed (lucas can control his own neutral much better thanks to spacing)

Lucas Weakness
• gets camped by speedier characters
• no real aerials for neutral
• most kills have multiple steps and require hard reads (get the slow grab, read DI for d-throw, u-air)

 

[Luco]

Lucas can hold his own in neutral very well despite having no AC aerials. Spaced Fair on block is actually bonkers.

Lucas' biggest weaknesses are OoS and getting camped not exactly by speedy characters but just ones who can ignore his mid-range zoning - Greninja and Diddy come to mind.

Tbh I'm of the opinion these weaknesses aren't very big, and even in the MUs Lucas loses in it's usually still a game of 'whoever gets the lead first wins'. It's certainly looking to be this way against Diddy, and I'm personally of the opinion that optimal Lucas vs optimal Sonic comes down to this as well.

Ness' weaknesses are pretty much what you described. As the meta evolves Ness mains have forced to become smarter about their option usage in neutral, and with a couple exceptions we've evolved into a turtle character more than a rushdown. There's ways to play this strategy whilst being aggressive (FOW led the charge on this meta since the dawn of time) but I think what people forget when they talk about Ness is how to get a lead back from him, because these days that's where he shines as a character.

And ironically, that last statement is true of Lucas as well.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lucas has a better recovery and better spacing tools, but Ness's aerials are still better in terms of safety just Lucas has more raw reach in what he needs to do. If Lucas lands a lot of grabs however he can make that look reversed. Grab>Dthrow>Uair or just straight up Uthrow around 150%ish without rage, seriously next to Mewtwo and Zard his Upthrow is the third best in the game.

I think Lucas has better confirms when he lands the right hits, but it's a lot of the right place at the right time along with some harder reads where as Ness has an easier time with this despite getting less reward.

 

[my_T]

dtilt and zair into grab constitutes as hard reads? Both of those moves on hit are borderline grab confirms and are very safe, especially zair. Is dtilt/zair to grab actually true?

I haven't seen anyone mention this but dthrow to dair at the ledge kills very early

 

[AusJJV]

dtilt and zair into grab constitutes as hard reads? Both of those moves on hit are borderline grab confirms and are very safe, especially zair. Is dtilt/zair to grab actually true?

I haven't seen anyone mention this but dthrow to dair at the ledge kills very early

Honestly, at low percents, d-tilt to grab isn't a "hard read", it's more of a very reliable mixup. Grab is just slow, but fast comparable to other tethers. This makes it so most strong Lucas players won't spam grab, it's too dangerous, better to use it when you're positive it'll connect.

At higher percents, it's a bit of a different story. It's definitely not true, but it is a nice, quick, mix up, as for it's quick with barely any end lag. It's just that at higher percents (100%+) most can just jump out. Saw that at SSC where Taiheita and Nairo were the only ones left in the doubles battles (not sure winners finals or grand finals, nor which game it was). Taiheita kept on d-tilting whilst Nairo kept on jumping out of it, and Taiheita was trying to get the grab as well after the d-tilts. Ill try and find the set with it.

But from MY experiences, it's not true. Better to just d-tilt into jab. But we'll see, I'll re-check later.

Z-air, however, is true at low-ish percents. I use it more than d-tilit. But again, at higher percents, knockback will be too high by then, but it still is a mixup.

Also, b-air is much stronger than d-air at ledge, since it has way more knockback, if Sweetspotted, kills at like 70%. Not saying that d-air isn't a good option either, it's more reliable actually, but b-air is there to net an early kill.

D-air = More reliable, connects easier, average kill power
B-air = If you don't sweetspot it, ain't gonna kill, but if it does, great kill power

 

[verbatim]

I don't consider "gets camped out by Shiek" to be a character-defining weakness. That's like 3/4 of the cast, including a number of top 20 characters. How does Ike corner Shiek on BF? Ryu? Villager?

Fair enough, I'd argue every character in the top 9, many high, several medium, and even a few low tier characters win the matchup against Lucas because of platform camping.


Lucas's strength as a character is very much tied to his horizontal game, fair, zair, pk fire, and grab followups are all extremely good, but they diminish significantly when you're opponent on a platform, kind of like Little Mac but to a lesser degree.

 

[Das Koopa]

So I'm doing these averages for all the players in that contender list and all I gotta say is "trela why"

 

[Wintermelon43]

So I'm doing these averages for all the players in that contender list and all I gotta say is "trela why"

It's okay, at least he did good at CEO.

But for real though, Trela will probably be screwed over in this just because of that. What average does he have?

 

[Das Koopa]

It's okay, at least he did good at CEO.

But for real though, Trela will probably be screwed over in this just because of that. What average does he have?

Spoiler: Good thing this isn't the only thing I use for ranking

Panda Global (PG) | Trela

Category 4: 139.6
CEO 2016: 385th
EVO 2016: 9th
Super Smash Con 2016: 25th

Category 3: +25%
N/A

Category 2: 25.5
2GGT: Fresh Saga: 1st
Endgame: 33rd

Category 1: 3
Impact: 1st
RIP City 10: TGC Edition: 1st
Austin is Really Feeling It 12: 1st
TCG 8: 1st
Shockwave Plano 99: 1st
Impact 2: 5th
Come and Take it 3: 1st

AVERAGE PLACEMENT: 70