Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

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Rizen

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Never understood why so many think that Mario is easy to use. Perhaps execution wise he's kinda easy. Nobody ever explains why they feel he's easy to use though.

His neutral isn't nearly as dominant as the other top tiers (though ZSS's isn't that great either) nor is his disadvantage. If he was really as easy to use as so many have said I would expect to see more success with him as a secondary but I haven't seen it yet.

any explanations?
Mario is Mr.Fundamentals with good stats. If you understand anti-air you have his Usmash. For juggles he has Utilts and a basic throw combo setup. He reflects, he has a zoning projectile, etc, etc. His top tier stats let you expand on all these and adapt as you get smarter at the game and the competitive mindset without an autopilot/get out of jail free like some top tiers have.
 

TTTTTsd

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:4littlemac::4ganondorf::4duckhunt::BULL****!
Little Mac is relatively comparable however none of these characters have a situation in which they are forced into a situation where they literally can not tech due to shoddy programming. I should specify that I meant "of the top tiers" because no top tier besides Cloud has a recovery that is even remotely as questionable as his is. These are however good examples of similarly bad recoveries though. Worth noting.

To address a different post, what is wrong with Cloud's strengths being exclusive to him? How in the world is this a BAD thing that you can only play Cloud like Cloud? That's preposterous, I have never heard this argument EVER in a fighting game as a bad thing, in fact diversity among top tiers and the development of UNIQUE PLAYSTYLES is lauded as a POSITIVE trait in most every fighting game. Nobody wants Ken to play like Ryu.

Cloud is far from the only character who can teach a player bad habits, he is not immune TO teaching bad habits, but come on, everyone here should know better than this.
 
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BSP

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:4littlemac::4ganondorf::4duckhunt::BULL****!
...Are you bloody kidding me? What the hell are usmash, bair, and dair if not exactly that?
You know he's talking about Mario, right?

Consistent 50-60% combos for basically free, a recovery that is hard as all hell to intercept, and the sheer stupidity that is upsmash make for a character that is easy to flowchart.
More like 30% on the combos, with some characters getting destroyed more than others.

Regardless, good players won't let you flowchart Mario through neutral. You'll get eaten alive as you get outspaced or mobility camped. I completely agree that the reward he gets on hit is amazing, but you do have to work to get to that point.
 

The-Technique

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:4littlemac::4ganondorf::4duckhunt::BULL****!
...Are you bloody kidding me? What the hell are usmash, bair, and dair if not exactly that?
up smash and d-air are punishable is hell when mis-spaced, especailly d-air that forces you to auto-cancel or suffer huge landing lag.

Consistent 50-60% combos for basically free, a recovery that is hard as all hell to intercept, and the sheer stupidity that is upsmash make for a character that is easy to flowchart.
mario does NOT get 50-60% for free, for every combo that mario gets like that, 4-5 good opponents manage to DI or double jump out after the first or second u-tilt. that's why sometimes when Ally lands a d-throw at early percents he only follows up with up B

im starting to think that you're a player who's...well what your name suggests.
 

Emblem Lord

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Except no Marth player ever succeeded with that playstyle in Brawl. Mr r and Leon played Marth nowhere close to what theorywarriors suggested to be 'ideal Marth play' and Mikeneko succeeded mostly on being the ****ing most skilled player Brawl has ever seen.

Marth is actually quite different in smash 4 because his disadvantaged state is easier to exploit whereas powershields are less dangerous for him than they used to be. That shifts the focus towards a more defensive, safer and less pressure-based neutral in smash 4 and being more dependent on maximizing advantages scenarios.

:059:
Mikeneko did alot of what I said Marth should do. He was a very different Marth compared to Leon for sure though.

Leon liked to swing.

A lot.

It offended my sensibilities to be honest.
 

NairWizard

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Actually, Mario is the high tier I recommend to people who what to improve as a player. Mario doesn't carry. At all. He has actual weaknesses that cannot be negated by simply recovering high or camping limit. His neutral is very good, but you can't just hit buttons. You have to learn mixups. You have to learn to get around better range and spacing. You have to learn to recover. You have to learn to read for a kill. You have to learn to read DI for many combos. You have to learn the nuances of stage control. You have to learn to deal with bad MUs. Most importantly, your fundamentals have to be AMAZING to actually get anywhere with the character. There is no crutch - no bouncing fish, no abk, no lcs, no banana, no dragon fang or quick attack. There is no autopilot "put out these big optimized hitboxes and hope someone runs into them". You're not working with a very limited set of great tools that lets you ignore some of your other moves or even some aspect of the game. Every move Mario has is useful in different ways, and you learn to put variety in your gameplan. Finally, Mario isn't a top performer at low-mid level. It's easy for him to get overwhelmed by a lot of characters with lower skill floors. You will quickly be made aware of any deficiencies in your play.
This post is so misguided it actually kind of hurts to read.

Mario teaches you how to be good with certain aspects of the game such as approaching and mixing up which hitboxes you use in different situations. He doesn't teach you certain other aspects of the game, the most important of which is spacing reactively. His limbs are so tiny that as long as you're landing a hit you're "spacing" in most cases; the most Mario ever spaces is really b-air crossups on shield. Spacing properly and reacting to an opponent's approach with a hitbox is the most important skill for the swordsman archetype of character, which includes Marth, Mewtwo, and, hey, look at that, Cloud! It's also very useful for long-range zoners like Toon Link and Lucas. I'd put my money on a Cloud player being a better Toon Link than on a Mario player any day.

Mario trains you to be a beast. If you can win with Mario, you can win with many characters. Those fundamentals give you a huge start on Fox, Diddy, Falcon, Bowser, etc. If you can win with Cloud, you can win with...Cloud. His strengths aren't applicable to any other character. Maybe kinda sorta Mewtwo?
For Fox and Falcon you're probably right, because both of those characters can play a very mixup heavy game if they want. But Diddy? Winning with Mario teaches you almost nothing about winning with Diddy other than when to go for dashgrabs. Diddy is a spacing character, a zoner, and a character with setups.

Mario doesn't do or have any of that. To learn how to play Diddy you're probably better off playing... Cloud.
 
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SaltyKracka

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You know he's talking about Mario, right?
You know I'm talking about Mario, right?
up smash and d-air are punishable is hell when mis-spaced, especailly d-air that forces you to auto-cancel or suffer huge landing lag.
Ah, yes, the up smash. The one that is so punishable that you'll often see Ally throw it out three times in a row in the neutral and barely get punished for it. And I'd address the captain obvious nature of saying that missing the auto cancel window of an aerial is punishable, but I'd rather you instead meditated on the auto cancel window itself, and how hard it is to actually miss it.
 

jet56

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Noticing a lot of talk about Cloud and his recovery/ ease of use. Hopefully i can shed some light, as i main mac and co-main cloud.

Little Mac is relatively comparable however none of these characters have a situation in which they are forced into a situation where they literally can not tech due to shoddy programming. I should specify that I meant "of the top tiers" because no top tier besides Cloud has a recovery that is even remotely as questionable as his is. These are however good examples of similarly bad recoveries though. Worth noting.
From my own personal experience, Cloud has a more exploitable recovery than little mac. the reason being that little mac has a side B and an Up B, both with solid hitboxes and at least partial intangibility to cover them. This alone gives little mac more mixup options than cloud has (cloud can stall and change his timing at best, which mac can do as well), and i personally believe without limit clouds recovery is worse than macs, having played both the characters for a year myself.

Again, this is mostly from personal experience, but I find that Cloud is easy to get started with, hard to master. He really doesn't have a flowchart neutral game, like say :4diddy::4mario: or :4ness: to name a few. He gets a lot of damage from stray hits and punishing options, and continuing a juggle, but while his tools themselves are amazing, their application can vary quite greatly from situation to situation. This is what makes him difficult to master, at least to me. When you want to safely hit a shield, should you fast fall uair, or fadaway bair, or space a nair, or crossup with dair? really, it all depends on what you are trying to accomplish, and on what you are trying to condition/ bait the opponent into doing. Cloud, while having amazing tools, is a very fundamental character himself and i think teaches players how to play the game at a high level, and the clouds who are trying to play him flowchart like are the ones losing at higher levels of play.
 

my_T

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Ness and Mario have "flow-charty" neutrals?! Are we all playing the same game here?
 

BSP

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You know I'm talking about Mario, right?
Ok. I wasn't trying to be coy or anything, because he was talking about cloud too.

Still, I'll agree with Bair, assuming the opposing character doesn't have a sword. It's pretty good on block.

Dair is ok at best. It has crap horizontal range, F3 or faster moves can interrupt it if Mario doesn't have rage, and nearly everyone can dodge out of the final hit if he doesn't have rage, although you'll probably get trapped into something else.

Usmash is a great move, but it's far from punishable. People are starting to realize that Usmash from Mario on block tends to mean a free dash grab, so he's not going to get away with it forever. Spamming it neutral will work on someone jump happy, but it has its counterplay.
 

Laken64

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Of course he is, never losing neutral is fun Kappa jk
Like a week ago I just played diddy out of curiosity and I like him but I'm not sure if I'm actually liking the character or banana fair, grab and up air lol

But out of curiosity how many of you guys play a character just for their tools (or other stuff like playstyle) and not because you necessarily like the character or find them fun it's a odd question but I'm just wondering
 
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Sleek Media

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...I don't think I need to call out the list of characters that are played for their tools and not a fun factor. We all know where people go when they want to win.
 

Shady Shaymin

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Of course he is, never losing neutral is fun Kappa jk
Like a week ago I just played diddy out of curiosity and I like him but I'm not sure if I'm actually liking the character or banana fair, grab and up air lol

But out of curiosity how many of you guys play a character just for their tools (or other stuff like playstyle) and not because you necessarily like the character or find them fun it's a odd question but I'm just wondering
For me it's mainly mobility that makes him fun. Having a forward-facing movement tech (jcit), a burst mobility command grab, b reverse aerial options, all on top of a good foxtrot/dance trot/perfect pivot just make him feel so smooth. Fair, bair, dtilt, banana are all incredibly good, but if all those things got toned down and I could keep all my mobility stuff, that wouldn't be too bad imo.
 

Laken64

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don't think I need to call out the list of characters that are played for their tools and not a fun factor. We all know where people go when they want to win.
Except the fact that this is the most diverse smash game when it come to character placings, just look at the tournament yesterday, who expected bowser winning or pika in 3rd place? And if we went by where people go to win where was :4cloud2: yesterday? This isn't brawl where there is a:metaknight:. Not every top 8 is just :4diddy::4bayonetta::4sheik::4cloud2: individually there's not a definite #1 that suffocates everyone, there are about 5-10 or more (or less if you disagree) characters that are a national threat and are more than capable than taking a national.
 
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Ninety

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I need to get this off my chest: :4greninja:

He gets good results in regionals typically, mostly top 12s and a handful of top 8s, and is currently #16 on Das Koopa's ranking project. However, when a lot other big names go to a tournament, I noticed that his results suffer. iStudying is considered the best (or 2nd best, depending on who you ask) of the character at the moment, and he has traveled to North America a few times for a couple regionals and a couple nationals. Of the 4 times he has been here, he only managed to get top 16 once. The only time he got top 16 (7th) was just a regional with only a handful of recognized names, Midwest Mayhem 2 (234 entrants). At Pound, a relatively stacked major (513 entrants), he managed to get 25th place, which isn't entirely bad for a major, but I will touch up on that. At GOML 2016 (489 entrants), he placed 17th, again, not entirely bad for a major. Finally, UGC Smash Open (205 entrants), a stacked regional with top-level talent, he places 17th again. The wins on Ally and Ned are accomplishments and shouldn't be undermined, but here's my point: if the supposed (second) best of a character isn't placing as high as expected, barely making top 8 once at a regional, while not even making top 16 at another regional and the two majors he attended, that says something about the character.

Someone could defend this by saying something such as "he lost to :4sonic: and :4sheik:, two of our worst MUs, at Pound, so that's why he placed so low." But if you think about it, doesn't that make sense? Those two characters are very common top tier threats in the current meta; if they beat your character badly while also being as common as they are and preventing your character from achieving better results than expected, your character's viability is questionable. 25th at a major isn't bad, but it was drastically lower compared to his seed.

All too often I'm seeing people start to overrate this character, whether it be in the Discord itself or even in this thread, with MUs being the primary offender. Just to give an example take a look at this chart the whole Greninja Discord server created:

4 losing MUs? Even :4fox: and :4mario:, top tier threats, have more losing MUs than what is listed here and still achieve way better, more consistent results. With the lackluster results he has at majors, having a MU spread like this is just blatantly incorrect. Just hearing that makes me genuinely irritated. Barring APEX 2015, an entire metagame ago, :4greninja: has never placed top 8 or even top 16 at a major.

Venia managed 25th at Super Smash Con 2016 (1,272 entrants) which is superb, but that is just one result. To rise up in the tier list, he'll need to continue achieving results like that; to drop from the tier list, it could happen if other characters start achieving more consistent results at majors like I'm noticing. For now, let's stop overrating the guy, please.
I've been saying Greninja is the most overrated character in this game for months. Ever since "better nerf Greninja" died and he got some buffs the pendulum swung the other way hard.
 

TheGoodGuava

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Greninja is simultaneously overrated and underrated. His strengths like his combo game, neutral, and SSHC are over exaggerated while his weaknesses like his Sheik matchup (not saying its good) are much more manageable than people make them out to be. He's not nearly as polarizing at people make him out to be which is a good thing and a bad thing depending on how you look at it. Regardless, anyone who has fairly good matchups against Bayonetta, Mewtwo, Marth, and Mario will always have a place in the meta. Sure his results might drop a bit but hes never going to be irrelevant.
 
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Sleek Media

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I think Greninja's a pain in the ass to play against, but at the end of the day, he's just a crap Shiek. Crap Shiek is still really amazing, but...y'know, regular Shiek is still around. My only real problem with the character is how strong his camp game is. I don't understand why they gave fast, combo-centric characters long range attacks that are actually more useful than the projectiles of characters that are designed to rely on them :4pacman::4link::4samus::4duckhunt:.
 
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I think Greninja's a pain in the *** to play against, but at the end of the day, he's just a crap Shiek. Crap Shiek is still really amazing, but...y'know, regular Shiek is still around. My only real problem with the character is how strong his camp game is. I don't understand why they gave fast, combo-centric characters long range attacks that are actually more useful than the projectiles of characters that are designed to rely on them :4pacman::4link::4samus::4duckhunt:.
>greninja is just a crap sheik

and if your previous posts haven't proved that already, you've shown me that you absolutely know jack**** about this game
 

Nathan Richardson

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Ugh ok you two be nice, flaming each other just clutters up the thread and gets us nowhere. Anyone have anything HELPFUL to contribute? That doesn't involve name calling and flaming others?
 

Nobie

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Care to actually contribute something to the discussion?
The issue with that Greninja as a worse Sheik argument is that it's kind of an outdated notion. They have some things in common like speed, a quick projectile, long and intricate combos, and (of course) being ninjas, but their game plans are fairly different. Greninja has better mobility specs while Sheik has better frame data, and while they're not that far apart in terms of raw numbers the result is that Greninja is almost somewhere between Sheik and Mewtwo.

It's sort of like if you called Yoshi a worse Mario. It kinda makes sense until it doesn't, and requires explanation as to what you actually mean.

Given everything that happened this past weekend at UGC, I think it's clear to see where the mid and low tiers stand in this game. Barring the notable exception of Armada's Young Link for a time, no one busts out their pocket mid tier in Melee to take down a top tier when the chips are down. But here in Smash 4, we see it fairly often. People wonder why having characters with not quite as many options can be good for a game, and this is partly why. Doesn't make a low tier stop being a low tier, but it's like a pinch hitter in baseball or a pinch server in volleyball. They don't need to do a lot, they just need to do enough.

I cheered for Abadango all weekend, and it's great to see him do well, but the ZeRo/Diddy matchup still looks rough for him. I'm still not entirely sure Mega Man suits his play style, but it might just be that he hasn't put in enough hours.

As for Mewtwo vs. Diddy, I think despite ZeRO's dominance over Abadango in that matchup it still isn't quite as rough as it looked in those games. Mewtwo and Diddy contended with each other pretty evenly in neutral, but Diddy just has a fairly better time taking advantage of wins in neutral. Combined with ZeRo's top-class neutral in general, and it's a huge hurdle to overcome. Monkey flip also covers a lot of Mewtwo's options if it's trying to get away (covers spot dodge, roll back, shield), so it's a powerful weapon.

I think where Diddy (or perhaps ZeRo?) begins to falter a bit more is when the opponent has specifically overwhelming neutral tools and/or is hard to punish for mistakes. Meta Knight's neutral is, as it's always been, very dash attack/dash grab-heavy, but these tools are just so good that Diddy can just sometimes get caught out. Mario's quick attacks and excellent recovery means Ally can take risks in neutral and punish ZeRo for bad predictions.

The only thing I saw that felt kind of like BS was when ZeRo down tilted Mewtwo's shield, and then was able to side step Mewtwo's down tilt in retaliation. Like I know how good Mewtwo's down tilt is, but that monkey slap is crazy.
 

Nathan Richardson

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The issue with that Greninja as a worse Sheik argument is that it's kind of an outdated notion. They have some things in common like speed, a quick projectile, long and intricate combos, and (of course) being ninjas, but their game plans are fairly different. Greninja has better mobility specs while Sheik has better frame data, and while they're not that far apart in terms of raw numbers the result is that Greninja is almost somewhere between Sheik and Mewtwo.

It's sort of like if you called Yoshi a worse Mario. It kinda makes sense until it doesn't, and requires explanation as to what you actually mean.

Given everything that happened this past weekend at UGC, I think it's clear to see where the mid and low tiers stand in this game. Barring the notable exception of Armada's Young Link for a time, no one busts out their pocket mid tier in Melee to take down a top tier when the chips are down. But here in Smash 4, we see it fairly often. People wonder why having characters with not quite as many options can be good for a game, and this is partly why. Doesn't make a low tier stop being a low tier, but it's like a pinch hitter in baseball or a pinch server in volleyball. They don't need to do a lot, they just need to do enough.

I cheered for Abadango all weekend, and it's great to see him do well, but the ZeRo/Diddy matchup still looks rough for him. I'm still not entirely sure Mega Man suits his play style, but it might just be that he hasn't put in enough hours.

As for Mewtwo vs. Diddy, I think despite ZeRO's dominance over Abadango in that matchup it still isn't quite as rough as it looked in those games. Mewtwo and Diddy contended with each other pretty evenly in neutral, but Diddy just has a fairly better time taking advantage of wins in neutral. Combined with ZeRo's top-class neutral in general, and it's a huge hurdle to overcome. Monkey flip also covers a lot of Mewtwo's options if it's trying to get away (covers spot dodge, roll back, shield), so it's a powerful weapon.

I think where Diddy (or perhaps ZeRo?) begins to falter a bit more is when the opponent has specifically overwhelming neutral tools and/or is hard to punish for mistakes. Meta Knight's neutral is, as it's always been, very dash attack/dash grab-heavy, but these tools are just so good that Diddy can just sometimes get caught out. Mario's quick attacks and excellent recovery means Ally can take risks in neutral and punish ZeRo for bad predictions.

The only thing I saw that felt kind of like BS was when ZeRo down tilted Mewtwo's shield, and then was able to side step Mewtwo's down tilt in retaliation. Like I know how good Mewtwo's down tilt is, but that monkey slap is crazy.
So it is possible for a low/mid-tier to make a good showing competitively but it's just more difficult?
 

Rizen

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I don't understand why they gave fast, combo-centric characters long range attacks that are actually more useful than the projectiles of characters that are designed to rely on them :4link:
My thoughts on this:

:4link:'s projectiles have similar frame data to :4greninja:shurikens and :4sheik:needles.
Shuriken uncharged: starts frame 20, FAF 46, damage 3. Charged fully 60-100 FAF 86.

Needles generate frames 1-98 for all six. Throwing them: hitbox frame 11 FAF is 54 for a full charge, or 5 FAF 48 for 5 or less (if I'm reading this right).

Link's bow uncharged: 18 FAF 47 damage 5. Full charge 54 FAF 83. Can be held infinitely but not stored.
Boomerang: 27-63 hitbox then wind FAF 46. The early 27 hit is +/- 0 on shield drop and gets better the longer the hitbox is out. Angling throws while hopping around is very useful.
Bomb pull FAF 40 frames. Forward throw is thrown frame 7 FAF 21. Bombs are sheer awesome in many ways like comboing into Fair, planting for stage control, aiding recoveries by refreshing upB and Z drop comboes.

Link has good projectiles, although not killing with them directly like shuriken is a big downside. Not holding a charge and not being transcendent like needles is bad too. I just wanted to point out that Link has projectiles with good frame data and stats.
 

Vyrnx

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I'm curious as to what people think of the 11-15 character rankings. I guess it would be some combination of :4marth::4ryu::4metaknight::4villager::4megaman: :4lucario:and maybe a few other contenders?
 

Nidtendofreak

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Top 15 in rough order?

(:4sheik::4diddy::4bayonetta2:)(:4sonic::4cloud::4mario:)(:rosalina::4zss::4fox:):4mewtwo:[:4metaknight::4marth::4pikachu::4ryu::4lucario:]

It gets hazy past the top 11 I'd say. Get into the murky "they're kinda great but also kinda have some noticeable flaws showing up and some of them don't have much in the way of rep but then again neither does Rosalina so how much do we count that against them" area.

()s indicate they're really really close and the order within those areas flip around almost daily for me. [] is the area of the actual question asked. Also no I didn't shove Pika there just because ESAM did well, I've just never dropped him as far down my mental list as some people have. I do think he's genuinely pretty good as a character just really difficult to be consistent with due to the struggle to kill. The fact that a few other Pikas are starting to show up helps.
 
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Mr. Johan

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Marth, MK, Villager, and Megaman are the four that are typically front and center when people talk of the "Who's after 10?" club. Pikachu, Corrin, Lucario, Ryu, and Greninja come afterward. Then you get the occasional oddballs like Ike, DK, ROB, Robin, and Peach.

And by this I mean in general list order. Not order of frequency for the actual 11-15.

Beyond that though, no names really crop up. Though now we may get a few claims for Bowser to be up there on these lists.
 
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TheGoodGuava

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If Links bow was chargeable and had transcendent priority he would be top tier. He would shut down approaches and force an approach at the same time with no way to zone against him because Hylian Shield, his neutral would only be rivaled by prepatch Sheik's. His disadvantage would still be bad though so it balances out.. sort of.


@Nintendofreak I dont think Cloud belongs in top 6, he belongs more around the Fox/Rosa area
I also don't think Mario belongs in top 6 either. Losing to Bayonetta, Rosa, Mewtwo, Marth, Cloud, and Sonic is plenty to knock him down.
If it were me I'd put it something like this

(:4sheik::4diddy::4bayonetta2:)(:4fox::4sonic::4mewtwo:)(:4cloud::4mario::rosalina:)(:4zss::4metaknight::4marth::4pikachu:)[:4villager::4ryu::4lucario::4greninja::4megaman::4corrin:]

Someone's going to tell me I'm biased towards Fox
who the ****
 
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Y2Kay

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I need to get something off my chest.......

If I hear another commentator say greninja is "a poor man's sheik" I'll jump out a window
I think Greninja's a pain in the *** to play against, but at the end of the day, he's just a crap Shiek.
Close enough.



No matter how much exposure greninja gets, and no matter how many high placements he gets, he'll forever be stuck with the image of a niche-y, technical character with no results, and is just a "worse Sheik" Greninja's results have vastly improved since Spring of 2016, but for some reason this completely goes over people's heads when they think about how good he is. There are still people who legitimately believe he has poor results.

Greninja has been able to maintain results within the Top 15-20 for several months with a relatively small playerbase. The character has his set backs but at some point you gotta give him his props.


:150:
 

The-Technique

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luckysharm
You know I'm talking about Mario, right?
Ah, yes, the up smash. The one that is so punishable that you'll often see Ally throw it out three times in a row in the neutral and barely get punished for it. And I'd address the captain obvious nature of saying that missing the auto cancel window of an aerial is punishable, but I'd rather you instead meditated on the auto cancel window itself, and how hard it is to actually miss it.
there's a good reason why ally is quite literally the only solo Mario that places consistently (and even still fell out of top 8 at UGC, eliminated by Nairo), and its because he spaces his up smashes so immaculately that they look unpunishable

but mario's up smash is not safe on block and outranged by several moves, you most certainly cannot use it carelessly and not get punished for it


and oh looky, mario landed a grab at 0% and scored...a single up-tilt, then Ike double jumped out. where was that free 50-60% conversion? gee whiz, its like mario doesnt actually get damage for free, and dare I say, the player actually works hard to land grabs in the first place. who would have thought?
 
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ARGHETH

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and oh looky, mario landed a grab at 0% and scored...a single up-tilt, then Ike double jumped out. where was that free 50-60% conversion? gee whiz, its like mario doesnt actually get damage for free, and dare I say, the player actually works hard to land grabs in the first place. who would have thought?
...he only got one utilt because he went for jab afterwards, probably going for what he got at the beginning of the second game. He had 60% rage, though, so it didn't work.
 

Swamp Sensei

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Generally, saying one character is just a worse version of another character is just a stupid thing to say.

Saying that shows they don't understand all the nuances the characters have.
 

TheGoodGuava

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Generally, saying one character is just a worse version of another character is just a stupid thing to say.

Saying that shows they don't understand all the nuances the characters have.
I mean, Falco is kinda just a ****ty combination of all grapplers
 

Ziodyne 21

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Top 15 roughly?
( :4bayonetta2: :4sheik: :4diddy: :4sonic: :4mewtwo: ) ( :4fox: :rosalina: ) ( :4cloud: :4mario: ) :4zss: ( :4marth: :4metaknight: :4megaman: :4villager: :4lucina: )

Just my thoughts.

The events that transpired at UGC has made me kind of reconsider if :4bayonetta: can be considered top 3-5 .

ESAM finally showed how having master SDI with the right charactera can seriously screw her over. Kinda ironic since he just recently placed her in the top 2 of his own tier list

Then again, ESAM's performance at UGC was just friggin insane peroid
 
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