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Mario is Mr.Fundamentals with good stats. If you understand anti-air you have his Usmash. For juggles he has Utilts and a basic throw combo setup. He reflects, he has a zoning projectile, etc, etc. His top tier stats let you expand on all these and adapt as you get smarter at the game and the competitive mindset without an autopilot/get out of jail free like some top tiers have.
Little Mac is relatively comparable however none of these characters have a situation in which they are forced into a situation where they literally can not tech due to shoddy programming. I should specify that I meant "of the top tiers" because no top tier besides Cloud has a recovery that is even remotely as questionable as his is. These are however good examples of similarly bad recoveries though. Worth noting.:BULL****!
You know he's talking about Mario, right?
...Are you bloody kidding me? What the hell are usmash, bair, and dair if not exactly that?
More like 30% on the combos, with some characters getting destroyed more than others.
up smash and d-air are punishable is hell when mis-spaced, especailly d-air that forces you to auto-cancel or suffer huge landing lag.
...Are you bloody kidding me? What the hell are usmash, bair, and dair if not exactly that?
mario does NOT get 50-60% for free, for every combo that mario gets like that, 4-5 good opponents manage to DI or double jump out after the first or second u-tilt. that's why sometimes when Ally lands a d-throw at early percents he only follows up with up B
Mikeneko did alot of what I said Marth should do. He was a very different Marth compared to Leon for sure though.Except no Marth player ever succeeded with that playstyle in Brawl. Mr r and Leon played Marth nowhere close to what theorywarriors suggested to be 'ideal Marth play' and Mikeneko succeeded mostly on being the ****ing most skilled player Brawl has ever seen.
Marth is actually quite different in smash 4 because his disadvantaged state is easier to exploit whereas powershields are less dangerous for him than they used to be. That shifts the focus towards a more defensive, safer and less pressure-based neutral in smash 4 and being more dependent on maximizing advantages scenarios.
This post is so misguided it actually kind of hurts to read.
For Fox and Falcon you're probably right, because both of those characters can play a very mixup heavy game if they want. But Diddy? Winning with Mario teaches you almost nothing about winning with Diddy other than when to go for dashgrabs. Diddy is a spacing character, a zoner, and a character with setups.
You know I'm talking about Mario, right?
Ah, yes, the up smash. The one that is so punishable that you'll often see Ally throw it out three times in a row in the neutral and barely get punished for it. And I'd address the captain obvious nature of saying that missing the auto cancel window of an aerial is punishable, but I'd rather you instead meditated on the auto cancel window itself, and how hard it is to actually miss it.
From my own personal experience, Cloud has a more exploitable recovery than little mac. the reason being that little mac has a side B and an Up B, both with solid hitboxes and at least partial intangibility to cover them. This alone gives little mac more mixup options than cloud has (cloud can stall and change his timing at best, which mac can do as well), and i personally believe without limit clouds recovery is worse than macs, having played both the characters for a year myself.
or to name a few. He gets a lot of damage from stray hits and punishing options, and continuing a juggle, but while his tools themselves are amazing, their application can vary quite greatly from situation to situation. This is what makes him difficult to master, at least to me. When you want to safely hit a shield, should you fast fall uair, or fadaway bair, or space a nair, or crossup with dair? really, it all depends on what you are trying to accomplish, and on what you are trying to condition/ bait the opponent into doing. Cloud, while having amazing tools, is a very fundamental character himself and i think teaches players how to play the game at a high level, and the clouds who are trying to play him flowchart like are the ones losing at higher levels of play.Ok. I wasn't trying to be coy or anything, because he was talking about cloud too.
For me it's mainly mobility that makes him fun. Having a forward-facing movement tech (jcit), a burst mobility command grab, b reverse aerial options, all on top of a good foxtrot/dance trot/perfect pivot just make him feel so smooth. Fair, bair, dtilt, banana are all incredibly good, but if all those things got toned down and I could keep all my mobility stuff, that wouldn't be too bad imo.
Except the fact that this is the most diverse smash game when it come to character placings, just look at the tournament yesterday, who expected bowser winning or pika in 3rd place? And if we went by where people go to win where was
yesterday? This isn't brawl where there is a. Not every top 8 is just individually there's not a definite #1 that suffocates everyone, there are about 5-10 or more (or less if you disagree) characters that are a national threat and are more than capable than taking a national.
I've been saying Greninja is the most overrated character in this game for months. Ever since "better nerf Greninja" died and he got some buffs the pendulum swung the other way hard.I need to get this off my chest:
He gets good results in regionals typically, mostly top 12s and a handful of top 8s, and is currently #16 on Das Koopa's ranking project. However, when a lot other big names go to a tournament, I noticed that his results suffer. iStudying is considered the best (or 2nd best, depending on who you ask) of the character at the moment, and he has traveled to North America a few times for a couple regionals and a couple nationals. Of the 4 times he has been here, he only managed to get top 16 once. The only time he got top 16 (7th) was just a regional with only a handful of recognized names, Midwest Mayhem 2 (234 entrants). At Pound, a relatively stacked major (513 entrants), he managed to get 25th place, which isn't entirely bad for a major, but I will touch up on that. At GOML 2016 (489 entrants), he placed 17th, again, not entirely bad for a major. Finally, UGC Smash Open (205 entrants), a stacked regional with top-level talent, he places 17th again. The wins on Ally and Ned are accomplishments and shouldn't be undermined, but here's my point: if the supposed (second) best of a character isn't placing as high as expected, barely making top 8 once at a regional, while not even making top 16 at another regional and the two majors he attended, that says something about the character.
Someone could defend this by saying something such as "he lost to
All too often I'm seeing people start to overrate this character, whether it be in the Discord itself or even in this thread, with MUs being the primary offender. Just to give an example take a look at this chart the whole Greninja Discord server created:
4 losing MUs? Even
Venia managed 25th at Super Smash Con 2016 (1,272 entrants) which is superb, but that is just one result. To rise up in the tier list, he'll need to continue achieving results like that; to drop from the tier list, it could happen if other characters start achieving more consistent results at majors like I'm noticing. For now, let's stop overrating the guy, please.
.>greninja is just a crap sheikI think Greninja's a pain in the *** to play against, but at the end of the day, he's just a crap Shiek. Crap Shiek is still really amazing, but...y'know, regular Shiek is still around. My only real problem with the character is how strong his camp game is. I don't understand why they gave fast, combo-centric characters long range attacks that are actually more useful than the projectiles of characters that are designed to rely on them
Care to actually contribute something to the discussion?
The issue with that Greninja as a worse Sheik argument is that it's kind of an outdated notion. They have some things in common like speed, a quick projectile, long and intricate combos, and (of course) being ninjas, but their game plans are fairly different. Greninja has better mobility specs while Sheik has better frame data, and while they're not that far apart in terms of raw numbers the result is that Greninja is almost somewhere between Sheik and Mewtwo.
So it is possible for a low/mid-tier to make a good showing competitively but it's just more difficult?
My thoughts on this:I don't understand why they gave fast, combo-centric characters long range attacks that are actually more useful than the projectiles of characters that are designed to rely on them
's projectiles have similar frame data to shurikens and needles.
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Close enough.
there's a good reason why ally is quite literally the only solo Mario that places consistently (and even still fell out of top 8 at UGC, eliminated by Nairo), and its because he spaces his up smashes so immaculately that they look unpunishable
...he only got one utilt because he went for jab afterwards, probably going for what he got at the beginning of the second game. He had 60% rage, though, so it didn't work.
Then you get to the clones.
I mean, Falco is kinda just a ****ty combination of all grapplers
Top 15 roughly?
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Just my thoughts.
can be considered top 3-5 .
