Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[~ Gheb ~]

It was actually neither MK nor IC that killed Brawl. The reason Brawl died was a.) the Melee community and b.) the release of smash 4.

So what you are saying is....

Sheik/Bayo team if anyone is serious about the game?

Or Sheik/Diddy?

I don't think Bayoneta's matchups are fleshed out enough yet to make a clear statement. We'll just have to see how it goes.

But Sheik [main] + Diddy [secondary] is pretty clearly the strongest known combination of main and secondary right now. The only matchup Sheik arguably loses is Mewtwo, who happens to have a dreadful tournament record against Diddy. Diddy's also easy enough to play to make him a good pocket character in general. And the few characters left that can give both of them serious trouble - Rosalina, Lucario and Sonic mainly - happen to be solidly covered by Cloud who is easy enough to play to be used as a tertiary character and still do fine with him. But that's just in case you don't like even matchups 'cause that's the worst thing you'll ever face with Sheik + Diddy.

I generally don't even take Cloud into serious consideration anymore because the character just doesn't work out solo and as I pointed out above he's easy enough to play that just about every combination of main and secondary character can be enhanced by a Cloud tertiary - even if only just to deal with Sonic and Rosalina, two notoriously awkward matchups to cover. There simply isn't any reason to not have a pocket Cloud ready even though I see him on the lower end of the top 10 more and more.

 

[Bowserboy3]

~ Gheb ~ I remember reading here a little while back that Diddy/Mewtwo could well be one of the best combinations in the game (then again, this was during the area when Mewtwo was all the rage, so overhyping things could have been a possibility).

What makes Diddy/Sheik better?

(disclaimer: not saying you're wrong, merely just adding to discussion)

 

[bc1910]

Who do people think are Diddy's worst MUs these days?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't think I've ever said that Diddy + Mewtwo is the best character combination in the game. If anything I probably argued that Mewtwo is better suited as a secondary for Diddy Kong than Cloud is [who has a strong losing record to Megaman, one of Diddy's hardest matchups]. Pretty sure you misunderstood, you probably have taken things out of context on accident.

 

[T4ylor]

I know I'm late but D3 gives Shiek a hard time? I'm curious as to how, I know it probably takes a year to kill D3 for Shiek but I can't imagine D3 even touching Shiek. Do I need to invest in a pocket D3 to cover Shiek lol?

I'm curious now, what are some MUs you just wouldn't expect a character to do bad (or good) against? Things like Falco-Mewtwo come to mind

Sheik is one of Dedede's hardest match ups. It only looks decent for him because no low-mid level Sheik players know how to fight him. He can't play the zoning/bait and punish game, because of Sheik's frame data. And Needles are extremely oppressive, which means he is forced to hold shield a lot of the time and hope the Sheik overextends so he can punish. Plus, he has to read their retreating options to get anything done.

 

[Deleted member]

Sheik beats every heavy pretty convincingly in my opinion. Even DK, I have no idea why I see people think that matchup is even. Sheik beats DK in neutral most of the time and the matchup becomes incredibly lopsided when DK is forced into the ledge.

 

[meleebrawler]

To try and come off of this topic a bit now, as I just mentioned Ice Climbers, I'm very interested to see how the development team balance them into the game if they come to Smash Switch. Due to how grabs work in Smash 4, chaingrabs likely won't work (which of course is great on the whole), and Ice Climbers were focused around grabs a whole lot in both Melee and Brawl. How are they going to fare overall without some amazing grab to utilise (that's assuming a different grab tech isn't discovered... oh lordy)?

Exactly how good would Ice Climbers have been in Brawl without their chaingrab? Would that hold up in Smash 4? What would need to be changed/buffed/nerfed to make them solid?

They could probably still do some footstool shenanigans out of grabs if their desyncing remains intact. Even the most basic followups resulting from this can do good damage on account of being two characters. Think more along the lines of Project M Icies.

What I think is more likely, they could get overhauled so that Nana acts as an assist character not unlike MvC who is summoned to perform specials. Popo could either move independently as she's doing them or use them together like they used to.

 

[Browny]

It was actually neither MK nor IC that killed Brawl. The reason Brawl died was a.) the Melee community and b.) the release of smash 4.

What? Was I playing the same game as you guys?

Brawl was dead well before smash 4 came out, Melee and PM completely overtook it and they deserved to with their MUCH higher following on streams etc.

Saying the melee/PM community killed brawl is outrageous when a lot of the brawl players quit the game entirely, or went to melee/PM. Maybe they wouldn't have quit if MK wasn't so busted. IC's made it worse but MK caused irreparable damage.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

What? Was I playing the same game as you guys?

Brawl was dead well before smash 4 came out, Melee and PM completely overtook it and they deserved to with their MUCH higher following on streams etc.

Saying the melee/PM community killed brawl is outrageous when a lot of the brawl players quit the game entirely, or went to melee/PM. Maybe they wouldn't have quit if MK wasn't so busted. IC's made it worse but MK caused irreparable damage.

Brawl's death was from many different angles (MK, ICs, tripping, random input lag, stalling, absymal balance in general, etc...). Even if MK and ICs were balanced, we would just see a bunch of diddy kongs, olimars, snakes, and such. D3 would still counter the rest of the cast. The mid-low tier on down would still be Sewage.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I don't think I've ever said that Diddy + Mewtwo is the best character combination in the game. If anything I probably argued that Mewtwo is better suited as a secondary for Diddy Kong than Cloud is [who has a strong losing record to Megaman, one of Diddy's hardest matchups]. Pretty sure you misunderstood, you probably have taken things out of context on accident.

No, I think you misunderstood me in the first instance; I never said you specifically said Diddy/Mewtwo was one of the best combinations, just merely stated that it was a common thing said around here a few months back. I was just wanting to see why Diddy/Sheik is now suddenly the best combination as opposed to Diddy/Mewtwo. If you can't add to that, it's fine though.

 

[Routa]

Speaking of Bayonetta bans, what do you guys think about Mii Fighters besides the small Brawler piston punch arguement?

I will give you the short version of my answer.
Guest Brawler? Not a threat unless you are impatient and do not know how to play neutral and how to DI the Helikick or D-throw -> Up-B.
Guest Gunner? Only Mii that is somewhat relevant to current meta due to having a lot of "evenish" MUs according to Gunner player. Solid counterpick character.
Guest Swordspider? Will stay in the shadows unless gets a mobility boost (or if sizes are friid... höhöö... bad Mii jokes).

 

[wedl!!]

Brawl never did overcome Meta Knight. Nearly every top player had an MK pocket just in case near the end of its lifespan, for the MK ditto and the ICs pick.

Sm4sh could quickly degenerate into Bayo pockets. It's already started anyway somewhat.

I swear yall get boners when you talk about Bayonetta

All I read in this thread abt her can be summated as; "SHE'S DEGENERATE" "SDI? MAYBE SHE'S NOT THAT GOOD" "YOU NEVER KNOW..." etc

On the subject of "pocket Bayos" Mr. R's Bayo is garbage. Don't even talk about it and how "Smash 4 will degenerate into Bayo dittos" because that's utterly ridiculous.

It's also pretty ignorant to think a character who hasn't won majors is gonna consume the game. If Salem, one of the greatest Smash players of all time, can't win big bucks with a character who's supposedly gonna kill the game and is busted and carries people or whatever it is this week, I think your theorycrafting is somewhat unfounded.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

No, I think you misunderstood me in the first instance; I never said you specifically said Diddy/Mewtwo was one of the best combinations, just merely stated that it was a common thing said around here a few months back.

Oh, I don't know where that idea's coming from.

 

[Rizen]

killed Brawl far more than anything else. I can't even tell you how busted Brawl MK was because he broke my bustometer.

It's also pretty ignorant to think a character who hasn't won majors is gonna consume the game. If Salem, one of the greatest Smash players of all time, can't win big bucks with a character who's supposedly gonna kill the game and is busted and carries people or whatever it is this week, I think your theorycrafting is somewhat unfounded.

IDK if it was a major but he did win Collision XIV with her beating several good players like ZeRo and Tweek.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Oh, I don't know where that idea's coming from.

I remember reading here a little while back that Diddy/Mewtwo could well be one of the best combinations in the game

Doesn't say you said it does it? Alas...

It was a few months after Pound IIRC. Looooots of users here were saying it.

It obviously didn't amount up to much if nobody else seems to remember it. Likely a spur of the moment thing.

Whatever way you look at it, I still see Diddy/Sheik as the best combination in the game as you explained. After all, they are arguably the two best characters in the game. If that wouldn't garner you some success I don't know what would.

(aside from actually being good)

---

IDK if it was a major but he did win Collision XIV with her beating several good players like ZeRo and Tweek.

On one hand, that's certainly notable, but on the other, Bayonetta isn't winning every tournament, and most importantly, majors left right and centre either (in fact, it's quite the opposite).

 

[TDK]

I know I'm late but D3 gives Shiek a hard time? I'm curious as to how, I know it probably takes a year to kill D3 for Shiek but I can't imagine D3 even touching Shiek. Do I need to invest in a pocket D3 to cover Shiek lol?

I'm curious now, what are some MUs you just wouldn't expect a character to do bad (or good) against? Things like Falco-Mewtwo come to mind

is pretty good at dealing with our projectile-throwing high tiers. I think he beats Villager, goes even with or beats Mega Man, and beats Toon Link.

 

[wedl!!]

killed Brawl far more than anything else. I can't even tell you how busted Brawl MK was because he broke my bustometer.

IDK if it was a major but he did win Collision XIV with her beating several good players like ZeRo and Tweek.

Collision was pretty stacked, yeah, but it's really the only big tournament a Bayonetta main has taken.

 

[Rizen]

I'm not saying Bayo should be banned or anything like that. She has results is all.



notably goes even with and and goes even with or slightly beats and .

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Doesn't say you said it does it? Alas...

No, I meant I have no idea where the idea's coming from that Diddy + Mewtwo is the best combination.

 

[Bowserboy3]

No, I meant I have no idea where the idea's coming from that Diddy + Mewtwo is the best combination.

I see, my bad.

But I agree, which is why I was asking again in the first place. What MU's does Mewtwo cover for Diddy and vice-versa? Do they leave any noticeable holes?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Its not not the the best one, but I think is an effective combination and a fairly feasible one in a competive level cosnidering they are both fairly easy pick and and learn thier fundamentals

They can cover both their notable poor MU's well .
beats and goes at least even with

beats possibly a postive MU vs and goes even with right?

 

[Das Koopa]

Collision was pretty stacked, yeah, but it's really the only big tournament a Bayonetta main has taken.

KTAR tho

 

[Emblem Lord]

What? Was I playing the same game as you guys?

Brawl was dead well before smash 4 came out, Melee and PM completely overtook it and they deserved to with their MUCH higher following on streams etc.

Saying the melee/PM community killed brawl is outrageous when a lot of the brawl players quit the game entirely, or went to melee/PM. Maybe they wouldn't have quit if MK wasn't so busted. IC's made it worse but MK caused irreparable damage.

Stop with these amazing logical posts. It might cause me to like you.

 

[chaos11011]

Is there a master post somewhere on notable moves that tend to close out stocks if you have suspect DI, and with that, ways to properly DI them (direction wise)?

Especially in the current game state where players shun you for not properly DI-ing. An essy to access guide or post could go miles to improve the survivability of players.

Stuff like ZSS Up B, Meta Knight UAir chains, Bayonetta combos, or any other move that becomes far more tame with better (S)DI

 

[Deleted member]

Collision was pretty stacked, yeah, but it's really the only big tournament a Bayonetta main has taken.

Did we forget about KTAR Saga?

 

[Mr. Johan]

To try and come off of this topic a bit now, as I just mentioned Ice Climbers, I'm very interested to see how the development team balance them into the game if they come to Smash Switch. Due to how grabs work in Smash 4, chaingrabs likely won't work (which of course is great on the whole), and Ice Climbers were focused around grabs a whole lot in both Melee and Brawl. How are they going to fare overall without some amazing grab to utilise (that's assuming a different grab tech isn't discovered... oh lordy)?

Hobbling - Throw -> Footstool > Ice Block to Jab lock -> Grab the getup -> Repeat - should theoretically still be possible under Sm4sh's engine since nothing about jab resets as it pertains from footstools have changed. Only way Hobbling could be removed would be to give Ice Block tremendous knockback growth or angle that removes the locking factor, if not remove the move altogether, or give the IC throws some sort of enhanced DI multiplier so they could fly any which way after a throw.

I swear yall get boners when you talk about Bayonetta

All I read in this thread abt her can be summated as; "SHE'S DEGENERATE" "SDI? MAYBE SHE'S NOT THAT GOOD" "YOU NEVER KNOW..." etc

On the subject of "pocket Bayos" Mr. R's Bayo is garbage. Don't even talk about it and how "Smash 4 will degenerate into Bayo dittos" because that's utterly ridiculous.

I'm not implying that it can only be Bayonetta that could cause it. If everyone up and decided to have a pocket Lucas to use, that too would be considered degenerate".

I did posit once that having Cloud pockets could degenerate the meta, because it, objectively, would make the meta centralized around having something for the Cloud MU as backup. Now that didn't really happen, but the potential is there. Same thing applies to Bayonetta if players truly start to optimize her stuff.

 

[verbatim]

Sheik beats every heavy pretty convincingly in my opinion. Even DK, I have no idea why I see people think that matchup is even. Sheik beats DK in neutral most of the time and the matchup becomes incredibly lopsided when DK is forced into the ledge.

Because top Sheik's have lost something like 5-7 sets against Bowser and DK in recent history.

Lord Mix beat Vinnie and Void w/ Bowser back to back offstream at a Texas tournament. Larry is lifetime positive against Void w/ his DK. The original argument that Sheik didn't do so well against DK probably came from the fact that DKWill 3-1'd Mr R at Smashcon 2015, again, offstream.

I do not think that any of the super heavies beat or tie Sheik, but to say that she wins significantly is misleading. The fact that they only need between 3-5 hits to land a kill per stock combined with Sheik's high % required to land most of her kills skews the risk reward heavily in their favor, even in spite of the difference in neutral.


The same skew is the reason Mario beats Sheik, except that you have to replace the word hit with combos and Mario is strong in many of the areas the heavies are weak in (neutral/mobility/recovery/edgeguarding).

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Not relevant but if pocket Lucas ever happens I would find it fun to watch.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Best ftilt, best projectile, top 5 frame data, top 5 fair, top 5 dtilt, top 5 nair, top 5 grab + throw game, top 10 jab. Plus a virtually non-existent disadvantaged state / several free out of jail cards on top of that. All on one character.

If that ain't the best character in the game I don't know who else is.

Diddy is better imo.

He has stronger conversions, just he lacks a free get out of jail free card in disadvantage.

 

[bc1910]

Diddy is better imo.

He has stronger conversions, just he lacks a free get out of jail free card in disadvantage.

That's an entire game state where he's categorically worse than Sheik though. Even if Diddy is slightly better in most other ways, which is debatable anyway, it doesn't add as much to his overall power as Sheik's non-disadvantage state. I'm including recovery under disadvantage btw.

Not suggesting Sheik is definitely the best (I don't know, or think it matters, who is #1 out of the roughly even group of ~4 top tiers) but just saying.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Diddy still has worse frame data, edgeguarding, recovery, mobility (both in the air and on the ground), and early percent follow-ups than Sheik. He makes up for this in range, height, and kill power, as well as trading ridiculous low percent conversions for consistent grab follow-ups at almost any percent before 100 on most characters.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Guess I'll just say if the Sheik is off on timings with things like ledgetraps, needles, and edgeguards (bouncing fish on DK/Bowser up B is so huge) she loses to Superheavies.
Otherwise? The MUs are -2 and -1, respectively. DK should get off the ledge once out of 6-8 attempts against a competent Sheik, as he's one of the characters where there is absolutely no guessing involved. The minute his body moves, reacting with nair covers just about every option. The biggest reasons Bowser does a lot better against Sheik than DK, imo, are his death potential off ledgetraps and anti landing/ledge trap tool in Side B. Having Whirling Fortress so she can't freely bully his shield like she can DK helps as well.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

That's an entire game state where he's categorically worse than Sheik though. Even if Diddy is slightly better in most other ways, which is debatable anyway, it doesn't add as much to his overall power as Sheik's non-disadvantage state. I'm including recovery under disadvantage btw.

Diddy's disadvantage state is amazing relative to most of the cast, its just that there are a 5 or so characters who have broken disadvantage states
Pikachu, Bayonetta, MK, ZSS, and Sheik make disadvantage look completely free. They have disgusting ledge options, amazing combo breakers, best-in-class burst mobility, godly ledge options.

Diddy still has worse frame data, edgeguarding, recovery, mobility (both in the air and on the ground), and early percent follow-ups than Sheik. He makes up for this in range, height, and kill power, as well as trading ridiculous low percent conversions for consistent grab follow-ups at almost any percent before 100 on most characters.

Diddy's frame data is pretty damn close to Sheik's actually. The only big difference in aerials is bair and nair for obvious reasons. As for grounded moves Sheik has the better jab and ftilt but Diddy's dtilt, up tilt, up smash, and down smash either have better frame data or are less situational. I thought I would point out that both of their f smashes have nearly identical frame data (f12 startup, f51 faf, 2 hit) but Diddy's has more kill power and can be comboed into from d tilt/banana
Diddy also has really good low % conversions, we just don't have a Diddy equivalent of VoiD to show them off yet. Sheik does however have a better advantage state overall.

 

[TDK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox3B83a5gN4

 

[Das Koopa]

9B and Nietono are being flown out to ZeRo Saga, it would appear.

https://smash.gg/tournament/2ggt-ze...versary-1/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/77108

Top 48 projections by seeding:

ZeRo vs. Captain Zack
Dabuz vs. Ally
Abadango vs. Salem
Larry Lurr vs. Kameme
Nairo vs. Tweek
Mr. R vs. ANTi
VoiD vs. Mr. E
Komorikiri vs. MKLeo

Things to look for:

B8, Zack's pool, could go to any of 4 players. Zinoto and Trevonte face off in Pool Semis, as do Elegant and Zack. Trevonte is the only outside Top 48 Winners side choice here, any of the other three could win the pool. It's unlikely any would beat ZeRo.

A1 projects Xzax to beat FOW, but I'd say the more likely outcome is pool finals being FOW vs. ZeRo. Something to watch, I guess, since ZeRo has no recent Ness experience and FOW could come back in full force. ZeRo's been training his Sheik lately (see: sets with Leo, using it on ConCon) so ZeRo might opt to pull it out. Pool Finals is Bo5 like at UGC.

B1. Ally, Dyr, and Zenyou all in the same pool. Dyr has been a very underrated player that took Ally to the brink at Battle Royale - could be a set to watch for. Zenyou beat Ally at CEO.

B5. Salem vs. Samsora when the two had a down-to-the-wire set at KTAR Saga. Regrettably, if Samsora happens to beat Salem... he'll have to fight Aba first set of Top 48. Lmao.

A5. Nietono's been on a tear lately, so I hope they stream him vs. Larry. Could be a good set even of Larry's clearly favored.

B7 is probably the most volatile pool at the tournament. Tweek, Pink Fresh, Dark Wizzy, and K9 all in the same pool. Pretty much a death pool. Tweek is projected to win but literally anything can happen.

B2. Watch for Charliedaking. He's taken 2 sets off of Larry in the last 2 days and appears to have spontaneously leveled up. Could upset ANTi.

A3. Vinnie is projected to beat 9B but I highly doubt that'll happen. 9B probably beats Vinnie, but I have no idea how a set between him and VoiD (projected pool winner) would work out.

B6. Mr. E, JK, Rich, and Seagull - another volatile pool. Mr. E is projected to win but that'll depend on whether or not JK and Rich are having good/bad days.

A6. Komo vs. Nicko and Dath vs. Regi. Latter could go either way and it'd be interesting to see if Komo has a Shulk problem.

 

[TDK]

https://twitter.com/Circa_6WX/status/808718919070523392

6WX's MU chart. I think it's more realistic than Wrath's.

 

[Fenny]

I'm quite frankly tired of MU charts lmao

There may be an 'optimal' way of playing particular match-ups, but there are so many varying playstyles in the current metagame that every MU chart is invariably gonna hinge on the player's personal way of fighting and how adept their playstyle is to a given opponent - which in turn is semi-dependent on that player's playstyle. Of course Wrath is gonna have a more optimistic MU chart than 6WX, because he's a defensive Sonic in contrast to 6WX's much more aggro approach, and between the two a defensive Sonic is generally a more potent threat across the board. There are very, very few characters who have the tools to effectively deal with that brand of Sonic, let alone outright beat him regardless.

In the end it's all down to individual experience and the current state of the metagame. Until we reach a point where all of us have been replaced with a set of robotised versions of ourselves where we can adapt flawlessly to any given matchup, trying to objectively judge the MU charts of high/top level players is a waste of time and shouldnt be seen as anything other than another point of view, no matter how glaringly ridiculous it might be seen to be in the eyes of others. It's not like bringing them up ever brings anything of substance to the discussion anyway.

 

[Laken64]

An interesting concept by Gimr. Thoughts?

 

[SaltyKracka]

An interesting concept by Gimr. Thoughts?

Lol, who can hear that **** at smash venues?

 

[Y2Kay]

An interesting concept by Gimr. Thoughts?

I guess the blind wizard has another tool in his arsenal.