Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[ARGHETH]

Why are we talking about Marth and Lucina again? I feel like we just got off that argument.

TL;DR Marth has better raw killing moves and is slightly safer at tipper range, but Lucina is better at racking up damage and has a kill confirm (Nair1-->Fsmash)

Also, any Marth player can use Lucina...they're kind of like the Pits. People generally don't because Marth's been seen as the better character, so why go Lucina?

 

[blackghost]

Just saying monado purge( jump art uthrow uair) can kill bayo at 70 at can go through witch time.
So much for "no throw combos/strings"
Also Shulk doesn't have to use shield, and Shulk can use Mallc airdodge or camp with jump art like dragonbrain does( if you haven't heard of him look it up, Shulk can camp to no end with jump). Shulks biggest weakness against bayonetta is offstage, nair destroys him with out jump art.
Also the biggest reason bayo mains thought Shulk bayo was even pre patch was because shield art could flat out get Shulk out of her 0 to deaths. But shield art made him bullet art food, so it kinda limited Shulk to use shield more pre patch. Now that bayo is massacred, the MU is better, but I personally think it's barely Shulk advantage or possibly even because I for one think bayonetta is top 15.

@TDK erm you think Shulk is top 20? ( I think you mean lower end of bottom 20 even though I think he's barely past bottom 20 but that's just me)

EDIT: thanks for the response @ParanoidDrone

Witch time will probably still work on the up air or batwithin works because she that's not a true combo. In neutral shulk cannot bair, cannot fair, his speed manado is annoying but he has to grab to initiate safely. If Bayo hits shulk she should have no problem pushing an advantage. Shulk has no get off move

 

[Locke 06]

Ryu can kill outside of tsrk and BAir.

Roundhouse, hard utilt, and up air all kill well as does fsmash, which is a strong whiff punish option from misspaced aerials.
There's a lot of growth left in the character. Only recently are people using light tsrk as an anti air. Also general conversions are getting tighter (BAir>dsmash. 34%)

Luci and Marth play differently. Lucina can play like Marth and get worse reward with keep away spacing, but she cannot play the sourspot>sweetspot game that Marth can play. Marth cannot play like Lucina due to being less of a raw threat outside/inside of tipper range. Players don't mind risking a non-tipper fsmash punish vs Marth (Cloud DA on shield for example), but you wouldn't do that vs Luci because she'll kill you. Also, as good as tipper BAir is, Luci's BAir is straight up better.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

The only difference between the Pits is Side B killing better and , ftilt knockback, and arrows. Other than that, they're the exact same character with different colors. The lack of a tipper changes almost all of Lucina's moveset compared to Marth. She still has to space with the tip but doesn't reap the benefits Marth would. Having consistent damage isn't always a good thing. Marth's sour spots do serve a purpose, and he's obviously better at killing onstage with aerials and normals than Lucina is. She has some kill set ups that Marth lacks, but Marth has other similar kill set ups as well as just raw kill power. Just because she's VERY similar to Marth doesn't mean she's necessarily close to him in power level. Just because you can switch to Lucina doesn't mean you should and the fact that the majority of Marth players don't should say something.

 

[Strong-Arm]

When it comes to Lucina I see her as worse than Marth overall(I still like her more than Marth), but by no means should she be placed so significantly lower in comparison to him.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Not significantly lower, probably no more than about 5 spaces on a tier list, but there is a definite gap, unlike with Pit and Dark Pit.

 

[Emblem Lord]

We were having a nice talk about an interesting fun character with room to grow and yall wanna talk about Lucina because

waifu.

Cut this **** out guys.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Why are we talking about Marth and Lucina again? I feel like we just got off that argument.

TL;DR Marth has better raw killing moves and is slightly safer at tipper range, but Lucina is better at racking up damage and has a kill confirm (Nair1-->Fsmash)

Also, any Marth player can use Lucina...they're kind of like the Pits. People generally don't because Marth's been seen as the better character, so why go Lucina?

Marth has plenty more kill confirms though
Nair 1 -> upair

Sour up air -> tipper up smash

Sour up air -> tipper fsmash

Nair 1 -> dancing blade (inconsistent)

Tipper nair 1 -> footstool -> dair -> tipper up air

just off the top of my head

Also, as good as tipper BAir is, Luci's BAir is straight up better.

What makes Lucinas bair better? In every situation I can think of, I find Marth's bair to be better

 

[blackghost]

To me it feels like people are still confused about what bayo can and cannot do. What she could do prepatch as well as the nerfs aren't relevant.
I hear people say she has frame traps, not true
I hear people say she has true zero to deaths post patch. Show me I'd love to see that
I hear people say she has a good neutral, yet she struggles to land a hit against many characters
I hear she's still high tier yet her matchup spread consists of more matchups she absolutely struggles in than those she should cleanly win. ( she cleanly beats Roy abd falcon) ( she loses to every top tier except Rosalina probably)
Yes it's true bayonetta looks amazing if you try to go crazy on her but if you play smart she can't open you up unless you mess up. She cannot safely pressure like a high tier and she cannot out zone or control neutral.
Overall results and consistent results overwhelming aren't in her favorite as aneeded elite and iffy as a high tier.
Also when people just end posts saying **** any character it's hard ton believe anything they said isn't impacted by bias.
Am I saying she a weak character? No. I'm saying at this point she's much closers to ryu her weaknesses being exploited and couter play very common knowledge.

 

[EternalFlare]

Ryu can kill outside of tsrk and BAir.

Roundhouse, hard utilt, and up air all kill well as does fsmash, which is a strong whiff punish option from misspaced aerials.
There's a lot of growth left in the character. Only recently are people using light tsrk as an anti air. Also general conversions are getting tighter (BAir>dsmash. 34%)

Luci and Marth play differently. Lucina can play like Marth and get worse reward with keep away spacing, but she cannot play the sourspot>sweetspot game that Marth can play. Marth cannot play like Lucina due to being less of a raw threat outside/inside of tipper range. Players don't mind risking a non-tipper fsmash punish vs Marth (Cloud DA on shield for example), but you wouldn't do that vs Luci because she'll kill you. Also, as good as tipper BAir is, Luci's BAir is straight up better.

Roundhouse is pretty unsafe to throw out. It has plenty of cooldown. Same goes for Forward smash, you aren't going to whiff punish slightly mispaced aerials on reaction with it unless they had tons of delay. You can anti-air with these moves but they are too slow to anti-air good aerial short hop approaches on reaction, it would have to be a read.

More importantly roundhouse, hard up tilt and up air kill at normal character percents (130 or higher roughly). There's nothing special about them that makes Ryu's kill power stand out.

Is bair to downsmash a true combo at low percents? I never see it being used.

 

[mountain_tiger]

One thing I love about Roy is his reliable ability to take stocks at 0% if you break a shield, which will pretty much never happen outside of For Glory, but sometimes we forget For Glory is 98% of the experience people will have with this game.

To be fair, although you're correct that shield breaks almost never happen at a high level, the threat of a shield break can actually be quite a critical factor.

[Disclaimer: this is not intended as a statement for or against Roy specifically]

Also, are archetypes a meaningful system of classification in this game? By that I mean,

Zoners: Olimar, Duck Hunt, Megaman, Mii Gunner
Grapplers: Bowser, DK, also Olimar kind of, Ness
Jugglers: ZSS, Meta Knight, Fox
Balanced: Mario, Mewtwo

Those were just examples so don't think too much about them, but you see my point. I'm wondering if it would have any use at all coming up with an arbitrary list of archetypes and ranking characters within said archetypes. So instead of a tier list with the sole intention of ranking all the characters in general usefulness, a tier list ranking characters for how good they are at a specific playstyle.

Just spit balling here.

For a game like Smash 4, I'm going to say probably not, simply because fighters in this game are so incredibly diverse and have such massively different gameplans from each other compared to other fighting games.

 

[Luco]

After browsing this thread daily for like 200 pages I really want to play against all the regulars. I know its off topic but it would be helpful to know who's *** and who isn't and also it would just be fun to play against the people who's opinions I've been reading for months now.

Go check out the PR directory and cross-reference names if you want to that badly (I did and it was fun), otherwise it's better to remember most of the S-tier posters on this thread aren't even on that list (or if they are they're under serious incognito names!) showing you can be a fantastic theorist without having to be a fantastic player. Go figure!

In regards to Pac-man, he's awkward because the dominant styles of play in this game either rush Pac down before he can do things (Diddy and friends) or force him to approach (Sheik and friends). He wants to setup situations, *then* play aggressive traps, and his traps are terrifying and effective when they do work but there's also things he wants to do that he can't do, traps that are straight up unviable especially if the opponent simply knows what they are (trampoline --> apple setups are ludicrous... Until your second game). Then he's left reading with his weakness of a grab and aerials which lack raw range against most of the cast.

He's almost like a better Dedede in that once you know what to combat you'll steamroll him, it's just an entirely different dish you need to taste test before you devour whole, and unlike Dedede there's always a few surprises he can comeback with. Don't know if he's bottom just yet and I still love the character to bits but he seems like a CP-based character these days or one for the tech-heavy fans and character loyalists.

 

[Yoshister]

The only difference between the Pits is Side B killing better and , ftilt knockback, and arrows. Other than that, they're the exact same character with different colors.

There's actually a fourth difference.
Dark Pit's rapid Jab finish is smaller.

Huge and notable, I know.

We were having a nice talk about an interesting fun character with room to grow and yall wanna talk about Lucina because

waifu.

Cut this **** out guys.

What, is Lucina not any of those things?

 

[PK Gaming]

falln's tier list:

link to tweet: https://twitter.com/fallnaway/status/756165516088094720

Notably he has Sheik at the top, and Rosalina much closer to the top than Dabuz had her. Marth/Lucina also continue their climb up the lists of many top players.

It's fascinating to see Palutena rise in the eyes of so many. Prince Ramen beating ZeRo definitely played a part in changing everyone's perception of the character.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Invincible moves will do that for you.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

falln's mewtwo placement triggers me

 

[NegaNixx]

@Illuminose

About ZSS not being Top 10 and her Diddy MU...

I'm doing a thing and since EGLX (Because First National labeled tournament after Pound which was the last one on PG player Ranking) till now...

ZSS is 5-16 vs Diddy (not including CEO and EVO, I haven't got there yet)

ZSS players include Nairo, Marss, Dakpo.

Diddy Players include ZeRo, Zinoto, Nietono

Other players were used too but I haven't used them in these match ups yet.

Taking out Dakpo (vs. Zinoto at Smash n Splash 2) makes it 5-14.

Nairo has however won both EGLX (228 Entrants, Over Ally) and KTAR XVIII (338 Entrants, Over Dabuz). CEO and EVO results are one thing but let's not disregard the other match ups.

11-5 over Clouds (M2K, James, Ned, Tweek) 11-3 removing Dakpo

Fox has low sample size against lower tiered players but it's 5-0 Nairo against Dugan and Ksev (Grain of Salt, litre of salt)

RosaLuma is 6-3 Nairo and Dabuz

Sheik is 5-5 Marss/Nairo against VoiD

Sonic is body bagged at 6-0 Nairo vs 6WX and SGK.

Mario is 6-3 Nairo vs Ally and AnTi

Mewtwo vs ZSS doesn't exist in my data yet.

Emblem Lord will be happy to note that Ryu is not listed in the group of top tiers. He can continue his labbing in secret before Ryu's take over the world.

So yeah.... Her Diddy numbers are bad. But her numbers against the other characters are more than fine. Still Digging though. Gotta find EVO bracket, someone help, I also need help with Japanese brackets and finding European one's too.

Doing this makes me appreciate how much @Das Koopa acrually does. And my sample size is tiny.


Oh and to the guy asking who was good and who was booty.

I am booty.

 

[Beefburger657]

Me too. I think he's pretty good now. He has fast run speed and aerial movement, quick aerials with low lag and some great advance techniques as well as an infinite.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

There's actually a fourth difference.
Dark Pit's rapid Jab finish is smaller.

Huge and notable, I know.

What, is Lucina not any of those things?

I actually omitted mentioning the rapid jab finisher intentionally because of how meaningless of a difference it was. Interesting to note it actually has more range in the z axis than Pit's but that really doesn't make a difference at all either.

And compared to Ryu and how much there is to discuss about him, Lucina doesn't really seem interesting to discuss right now. I think we've discussed Marth vs Lucina enough for a while.

 

[Beefburger657]

But in the end it's all opinion.

 

[Amadeus9]

It's fascinating to see Palutena rise in the eyes of so many. Prince Ramen beating ZeRo definitely played a part in changing everyone's perception of the character.

The character is really good though. I've always been puzzled when people say she's bad. She has a very surprisingly good top tier mu spread and some of the dumbest buttons in the game, in addition to punishing pretty damn hard with a solid grapple game and her ludicrous uair. It is very cool to see people's opinions on her reverse, though.

 

[Strong-Arm]

Still really saddening that Doc lacks really any rep outside of 2manycooks.

 

[Ropalme1914]

Another way that Ryu can kill is from combos that ends in Dair, like Nair>Nair>Nair>Dair, that even if the opponent survives, they will be probably far enough from the stage, and at risk of receiveing a footstool. Ryu has various 0-Death that players like B3TOH can do somewhat consistently (even if it is not against notable players, he is at the level of most of his opponents). And about that thing of Shield Break, Collarbone Breaker is also great, since a few attacks before, like a Shakunetsu, and the opponent is already at risk.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ryu 0 to deaths aren't real.

They start from level 3 focus.

Get that mess outta my house my good man.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Ryu 0 to deaths aren't real.

They start from level 3 focus.

Get that mess outta my house my good man.

I thought they started from sour fair, whatever though

 

[LancerStaff]

Not significantly lower, probably no more than about 5 spaces on a tier list, but there is a definite gap, unlike with Pit and Dark Pit.

There's definitely a noticable gap between the Pits... Pit's got the RC arrows that are like 45 frames of commitment compared to the straight ones that are practically 60. Against any slow character or a campy one that's an immediately noticable difference, and that's before offstage stuff. Pit's Ftilt is also a fairly reliable and useful kill move that fits into his gameplan better then Electroshock does, though that's not to say Electroshock is bad or anything. Actually I heard a while back that there was an actual, useful kill confirm of Nair > Electroshock but I'm not entirely sure what came of it...

Not entirely sure if the differences are significant enough to have Dark Pit be more then a spot or two below Pit but I'd rather have them together because they're interchangeable, like switching a custom move. If a situation where Dark Pit would be better comes up you pick him, and that's how people use him. (So almost never, lol.) Lucina, while interchangeable, arguably doesn't have any MUs or match-long situations where she'd be superior. There's maybe one notable player who uses the both of them like somebody would the Pits, and thus she should be ranked separately.

 

[Ropalme1914]

Ryu 0 to deaths aren't real.

They start from level 3 focus.

Get that mess outta my house my good man.

They can start from Level 3 Focus (both with opponent in the air or in the ground), Level 2 Focus (only if the opponent is in the ground), Sourspot Fair, early Sweetspot Fair and Shakunetsu Hadoken.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Good luck hitting it with a shaku. Sourspot fair is the most realistic.

There is a reason we really dont see them alot.

Also I hate the term sourspot fair. It doesnt apply at all in this context.

Its a back hit.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The character is really good though.

Palutena is a bad character. She doesn't even have tilts and her jab has a lot of startup for a jab ... somebody -presumably from SoCal- is gonna figure out the matchup against her soonish and you'll never hear from Palutena ever again. I promise.

 

[Locke 06]

What makes Lucinas bair better? In every situation I can think of, I find Marth's bair to be better

9%/12.5% vs 11.8%

Hits harder. It's a large swing that half of the cast has an extremely hard time avoiding offstage. Tipper Bair is somewhat easy to avoid offstage (most characters will take the 9% hit and get back) but Luci will hit you further away and put you in more hitstun with all parts of her sword. She can flowchart edgeguard characters, Marth's flowchart edgeguarding is much more difficult and interactive due to his sour/sweetspots.


Edit: regi wants to pick up Luci and not Marth.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Palutena is a bad character. She doesn't even have tilts and her jab has a lot of startup for a jab ... somebody -presumably from SoCal- is gonna figure out the matchup against her soonish and you'll never hear from Palutena ever again. I promise.

She doesn't need tilts. Or have you not been paying attention to how people play Palu nowadays?

 

[BunbUn129]

Saying that Palutena is a bad character because she has bad tilts is like saying Sheik is a bad character because she has bad smash attacks.

Character viability isn't as simple as "good" and "bad" moves because moves don't exist outside of the context of the characters who use them. Palutena's tilts have poor utility indeed, but then she also has good grad reward, useful aerial attacks, along with the invaluable strength of good mobility both on the ground and in the air (the last one imo is enough to prevent a character from being anything worse than mid-tier).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

She doesn't need tilts. Or have you not been paying attention to how people play Palu nowadays?

She needs fast close range options. Bair and DA won't be able to safe her ass forever.

Saying that Palutena is a bad character because she has bad tilts is like saying Sheik is a bad character because she has bad smash attacks.

I'm not saying that she's a bad character because she has bad tilts.
I'm saying she's a bad character who has bad tilts.

And bad smash attacks for that matter. And a jab that fails to fill a hole in her moveset. Her 1111 specials are also mostly useless.

Character's baaaaaaaaaaad. Low-mid at the absolute best.

 

[Amadeus9]

She needs fast close range options. Bair and DA won't be able to safe her *** forever.



I'm not saying that she's a bad character because she has bad tilts.
I'm saying she's a bad character who has bad tilts.

And bad smash attacks for that matter. And a jab that fails to fill a hole in her moveset. Her 1111 specials are also mostly useless.

Character's baaaaaaaaaaad. Low-mid at the absolute best.

I'm sorry, you dont get away with that bair at anything worse than mid tier. Palutenas bair could be a character by itself. And it kinda is tbh

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Laughable.

But tbh I'm fine just sitting here and waiting for time to prove me right.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Did palu do anything at EVO?

 

[Dinoman96]

Did palu do anything at EVO?

TLTC made it to 33rd with her this year.

Incredibly ironic considering she didn't appear in the Top 33 last year which allowed for customs which make her a much better character.

 

[blackghost]

Palutena has a very good at game and rar bair is very scary. The problem is she is a character that is relatively linear.
Truth be told of her specials were almost any other variation she'd be upper mid to low high tier more than likely.

 

[Amadeus9]

Laughable.

But tbh I'm fine just sitting here and waiting for time to prove me right.

I mean all you have really maintained is your typical "x is bad because x is bad" logic you've had a propensity for, for quite a while. Please look at things objectively once in a while. Also maybe try not to close off an argument with an ad hominem? Thanks

 

[Appledees]

I'm sorry, you dont get away with that bair at anything worse than mid tier. Palutenas bair could be a character by itself. And it kinda is tbh

Not agreeing that Palutena is like outright bottom tier trash or even bad but having 1-2 really good moves doesn't mean the character is actually good considering we have alot characters like that but some of them aren't really great either

And really having really garbage titls and a meh jab is actually a really bad flaw despite having some solid moves scattered places