Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[TDK]

So he basically says "Zard is worse because some characters do what he wants a little better."
that doesn't make him worse than Jiggs and Ganon.

and there's NO WAY Zard is worse than D3.

It's not just "a little better". Zard is 100% outclassed by DK unless you want a heavy with a Stock cap.

...Oh wait. DK does that too, and his is 50% earlier.

 

[Das Koopa]

d3 has better results than zard, honestly

I'm waiting for that magical Zard main to appear

 

[Jams.]

2ManyCooks will be attending 2GGT: KTAR Saga this weekend, so we might see some high level representation at a large event again. He recently beat Alphicans at a regional (winning with solo Doc), so I'm really excited to see how he fares. He also feels that some MUs are not worth playing Doc for though, and will make swaps to his secondaries if necessary.

 

[TDK]

2ManyCooks will be attending 2GGT: KTAR Saga this weekend, so we might see some high level representation at a large event again. He recently beat Alphicans at a regional (winning with solo Doc), so I'm really excited to see how he fares. He also feels that some MUs are not worth playing Doc for though, and will make swaps to his secondaries if necessary.

Now this is interesting!

Did he say which MUs? Or do we have to play guesswork at that?

 

[L9999]

2ManyCooks will be attending 2GGT: KTAR Saga this weekend, so we might see some high level representation at a large event again. He recently beat Alphicans at a regional (winning with solo Doc), so I'm really excited to see how he fares. He also feels that some MUs are not worth playing Doc for though, and will make swaps to his secondaries if necessary.

By any chance will C-lu go?

 

[Jams.]

Now this is interesting!

Did he say which MUs? Or do we have to play guesswork at that?

I can ask him specifically (I'll edit this post when he responds), but locally he plays versus + and versus + . The only MU I know of where he thinks Doc is not worthwhile using is ; for the other characters I believe he just prefers playing the matchups with one of his secondaries.

Update: He says is the only unwinnable where Doc is not worth playing. He also dislikes the and matchups.

By any chance will C-lu go?

No, C-lu lives in Toronto now and he said he was taking a break after GOML. Only Alphicans and 2ManyCooks are going.

 

[ReRaze]

Where on Earth has @Trifroze been?

http://youtu.be/DsTJLI3Kxos It's probably this time of year again ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Where was this mindset before the Bayo nerfs?

rip in pepperoni Bayonetta Feb 3 2016 - May 18th 2016

Anyone could tell bayonetta was overtuned af (and in more moves than just one) she had results comparable to the other top tiers despite being out for only a fraction of the time the other characters had to develop.
The nerfs were brutal (maybe too much so) but they were necessary. And its not like she's completely gutted, Saj and Pink Fresh still make strong cases for her viability, there's probably still a whole lot more to her.

As for ZSS let's not get hasty, it's extremely hard to be consistent at top level I think it's still too early to judge ZSS based on results compared to her much longer showing of dominance, everyone always considers only the placing but I hardly see anyone look into the matches themselves, sometimes the difference between making it into top 8 can be nothing more than a single hit. Nairo vs Ranai was a nail-biter and apparently Nairo vs Larry was tight too (Nairo losing both his last stocks to the untechable spin).
And lets not forget how dangerous/silly she still is https://clips.twitch.tv/rushhoursmash/ShinyDoveDogFace

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Charizard has a tool that allows him to bypass most projectiles from the other side of the stage and allows him to punish from there while providing the best recovery of any heavy. DK and Bowser do not.

Charizard has an super armored Up B that allows him to kill out of shield while providing an actual vertical recovery move. DK and Bowser do not.

Charizard has an effective option to gimp characters with linear vertical recoveries without leaving the stage while also providing a safe jump in against any character. DK and Bowser do not (unless you are REALLY lucky with Bowser, I guess.)

Charizard has a disjointed super armor move that gives him an option to safely land that can land up to 30% if it hits right. DK and Bowser do not.

And that's just the specials. I'm not even going to get into the nuances of his stats, normals, grabs and smashes like the fastest jab of the three you've mentioned, the best dash attack of the three, the best up smash, the fastest dash, three jumps, etc.

TDK

You're ignoring all of the things that make Charizard unique. All of his nuances, his quirks.

It's like me asking why you main Corrin when Cloud is the better long range swordsman with poor recovery (which Cloud can improve btw, Corrin is stuck with his).

It's ignoring almost everything and shows I don't know the nuances between the two, right?

It's focusing on only certain elements and to an absurd degree.

I'm not going to sit here and say Charizard is the best character ever. He's not and he has definite flaws.

But his flaws aren't killing.

And his flaws aren't being a worse version of Bowser or DK.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

2manycooks also believes that playing against a campy sonic as doc isn't viable

 

[Y2Kay]

I don't know how charizard is worse than DK in every imaginable way when he has better ground movement and landing options.

Honestly, saying "Character X is just Character Y but worse", is just begging for you to be exposed by a "Character X" Main

 

[Bowserboy3]

Something just occurred to me...

Have the Japanese released a tier list recently at all? I always found it interesting too see how their opinions contrast to the west, but I can't seem to find one. Does anybody know of one they could direct me to?

 

[Rizen]

Charizard has an super armored Up B that allows him to kill out of shield while providing an actual vertical recovery move. DK and Bowser do not.

^Bowser can get a good amount of height from his upB by mashing B. Just saying. I tried using DK for fun recently and was mashing during his upB, like with Bowser, thinking 'why isn't this getting any height?!'.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

^Bowser can get a good amount of height from his upB by mashing B. Just saying. I tried using DK for fun recently and was mashing during his upB, like with Bowser, thinking 'why isn't this getting any height?!'.

Oh I know.

Point was wasn't that he could do a thing Boswer couldn't.

Spinning Kong actually kills (much later than Fly, but whatever) and has armor for example.

But neither Bowser or DK have a tool that does everything I listed there.

It's not an individual trait that makes a character unique. It's a combination, ya know?

 

[Nobie]

Guess this was overdue, but...

Spoiler: TDK's essay on why Charizard is the worst character in the game

Charizard has a ton of problems. The first problem is that his moveset doesn't work. I'm not sure how to describe it, other than Charizard tries to both approach and land a grab while also trying to stuff approaches or punish your opponent. He has a pretty solid grab game at low % and a moderately threatening kill throw (though it's overrated as a kill throw because it's doubly hurt by the "DI Down and Away" philosophy, as in that's the best way to DI his throw and it's also the best way to DI when being hit up in general. The rest of his tools, though, don't compliment his grab game as all. He has no real setups into grab except maybe Jab, and he has just two follow ups off of grab that are remotely threatening. Forward Air and Up Air are cool, but Up Air, the one that kills, can be DI'd rather easily so the charizard can't get it since Charizard's air speed/acceleration/gravity/whateverfeaturemakesyoumoveintheair is actually pretty poor, reducing his follow-up potential. Grab nonwithstanding, Charizard's average toolset is decent at best. Most of his toolkit is very punishable and starts up too slowly to be of use, and Charizard is in general a character that thrives off of hard reads and punishes while also being comboed and punished hard by the majority of the viable cast simply because his moves come out too slow to break out of combos, and while he is blessed with Super Armor, he can't land at all because his super armor option has a problem that stops it from working, but once he gets in he can mess you up.

Does that sound familiar? Perhaps it reminds you of a few ... other characters in this game? Maybe... Bowser and DK?

Charizard's biggest flaw is his toolset is inferior to bowser and DK. Charizard's fast, powerful back air is a worse Version of DK's faster, equally powerful back air that can be comboed into from an up throw. Charizard's grab game is completely outclassed by the Ding-Dong and DK and Bowser's low % combos in general, and their high % ones. Zard's up throw killing at 120? Pales in comparison to the Ding-Dong killing at half that. Bowser and DK have much better, more coherent tools for grapplers, and there is no reason to play Charizard and get bodied to the moon in back over DK or Bowser. Sure, they're all going to really, really struggle to break out of combos, but DK and Bowser live longer, kill earlier, and have a better chance of breaking out of those combos.

The biggest reason I put Charizard below Jiggs and Ganon is because Jiggs and Ganon all have their own unique tools and playstyles (yes I know ganon's a semiclone, but he plays nothing like Falcon). There is ZERO reason to use Charizard over DK and Bowser unless you really like Charizard. If that's the case, I can't stop you, but I can tell you that you'd have more success for a similar playstyle with DK. Charizard has no distinguishing traits from the other heavies outside of having a stock cap throw and just generally being the worst heavy in the game.

I don't quite understand why you're comparing Charizard's back air to DK's. The gorilla's back air is a super fast poke/combo tool that's one of DK's most reliable attacks. Charizard's back air is this massive tail sweep with a really powerful sweet spot that deals 16% (!!!) and kills early. If anything, I'd compare it to Bowser's back air.

As for Sonic, a few things:

Time outs are a legitimate strategy, but I also understand why people hate them. More often than not, people dislike when players are seemingly doing nothing, but this changes as more and more people get better at fighting campy Sonics, even someone as good as Ally. Do you remember what early Smash 4 was like? There was a good deal of defensive posturing and lack of interaction simply because players didn't know the game or their characters well enough and were afraid to take any unfamiliar action that would put them at risk. Given how Sonic is, with his speed, punishes, and ability to not commit in many cases, he can actually get people to play worse and fall into this mindset (or the opposite, which is doing something over and over again expecting it to work EVENTUALLY).

I find the conversation earlier about second jumps and recovery to be incredibly relevant to Sonic. If you think of your jumps as a resource, then a big part of Smash is getting a character to use up their resources, reducing their options and thus making them easier to predict and catch. Sonic is basically a well of resources, between sheer ground speed, good air speed, spin dash, spin charge, homing attack, and spring. Not every character can do it all that well, but to fight Sonic you need to get him to burn those resources, narrowing the range of possibilities available to him until you can land a solid hit and checkmate him. However, his moveset is also such that it's incredibly deceptive, and moments where he appears vulnerable are actually quite the opposite, and it's up to the opponent to understand those moments.

By the way, the last thing I want is for Smash 4 to have some of the Melee mindset, where a good deal of people are literally afraid to play lame because that's not the image they have or want for their game.

 

[williamsga555]

Reading the Roy discussions a few pages back is frustrating. So many common misconceptions that still exist.

He doesn't have to play wrecklessly because of his reverse-tipper. Honestly he has some of the best pokes in the cast when spaced out.

Also remember someone saying his shorthop is bad. I don't understand what exactly this even means, to be honest. His SH aerials (particularly nair) are excellent, his empty SH game is threatening because of his excellent reward off of d-throw, it doesn't go too high to hit grounded characters...aside from his inability to weave during it, it's a pretty excellent shorthop.

Apologies if this is poorly formatted, sending from mobile.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Also remember someone saying his shorthop is bad. I don't understand what exactly this even means, to be honest. His SH aerials (particularly nair) are excellent, his empty SH game is threatening because of his excellent reward off of d-throw, it doesn't go too high to hit grounded characters...aside from his inability to weave during it, it's a pretty excellent shorthop.

I did.
I played Roy for a decent time and honestly, I found the overly short length combined with the fastfall to be jarring, to me. I was able to do really neat stuff with his Neutral Air using it, yes (I will admit his Nair is a guilty pleasure of mine) but I still frankly dislike his shorthop, since I couldn't do some other things that I would've liked him to do. That is my POV.

He doesn't have to play wrecklessly because of his reverse-tipper. Honestly he has some of the best pokes in the cast when spaced out.

This, however?... I don't know, seems like an exaggeration.

 

[Bowserboy3]

A lot of Roy's sweetspot spaced moves are still unsafe on shield, because of how close the opponent will be when the stun wears off. Utilt, Ftilt, all smashes, Fair, Bair and Dair all come to mind, but i'm no expert, so Nair and Uair could also still be punished on shield too. Spacing near the tip is just as bad, even if it is slightly further away.

Sure, if you land a move at the tip, they can be safe on hit, but what's the point? He can't use these hits to convert into another move, and the damage is poor.

 

[0mega_Nebula_1]

This definitely looks like it was made without much experience or general knowledge of the metagame.

You seem like a nice person, but you're probably not at a point where you can make coherent tier lists. I mean this in the nicest way possible; I think it would better if you focused your energies elsewhere, since as it stands, you're just going to end up derailing the thread with this tier list.

I really appreciate your honest opinion and I think that you may be right. I'll still post a revised tier list but I'll also focus on ather things as well.

 

[Zelder]

I don't know how charizard is worse than DK in every imaginable way when he has better ground movement and landing options.

Honestly, saying "Character X is just Character Y but worse", is just begging for you to be exposed by a "Character X" Main

Dr. Mario is just Mario but worse.

 

[williamsga555]

Roy has safe pokes from far spacing, not from landing his sweetspot. D-tilt, nair, bair, for example, are all difficult to punish when hitting at far range. That's on shield, even. They're not completely safe, but that's hardly worth taking about since almost nothing in Smash 4 is truly safe on shield.

It seems counter-intuitive, I know, but it's legit. D-tilt in particular is even better than Marcina's as a poke due to it's quicker FAF without sacrificing any range.

I'm not trying to argue Roy as a closet high-tier, for what it's worth. Just getting tired of hearing the same misinformation about him be repeated endlessly on cycle in CCI. Roy can play a safe game until his disadvantage truly starts.

Again, mobile, so apologies for formatting troubles if they're there.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Are people sleeping on Peach and Captain Falcon? 13 and 14. Villager not making top 20 is a bit surprising as well, I suspect that's mainly due to a lack of Villager players (he's #21). I wouldn't base a tier list solely off of these results, but the data is quite interesting. Is Mewtwo overrated (possibly a bit, but I do think he deserves to be top 10)? Are Peach and Captain Falcon underrated?

For Peach I believe it's her being underrated and lack of good results. There isn't much people are doing with her. And when she is used, players don't do much damage with her. But the reason for that is the way people use her now. Her metagame is not good. I explain more of that in this video for those that wanna know more.

I'm gonna try to do something about this and change how I play to how I feel she should be played. I took a near month break from events to clear my mind, think and start over. I will be returning full time again to events this week and putting all this to work.

 

[0mega_Nebula_1]

So I wanted to take everyone's minds off of the tier list that I made (unless your mind wasn't on it) and ask this to everyone:
Why do you think that pikachu has fallen down on the tier list so much? Pikachu seems to have gotten much worse results for a while now and isn't considered very scary to play against like he once was. What do you think caused this?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Roy has safe pokes from far spacing, not from landing his sweetspot. D-tilt, nair, bair, for example, are all difficult to punish when hitting at far range.

Difficult or not, they are punishable.

And as I mentioned in my previous post, why on earth would Roy benefit from landing his sourspots? He cannot combo from them, the damage is poor, and most importantly, the knockback and hitstun are also very poor. It goes completely against his playstyle. He cannot convert off of his sourspots (outside of a niche Bair missed tech lock) like Marth can his, for example. Sure, landing at the tip of his sword is safe for poking, but there is almost no benefit from this.

D-tilt in particular is even better than Marcina's as a poke due to it's quicker FAF without sacrificing any range

For one, Marth and Lucina's Dtilt's have more range than Roy's. Whichever way you look at it, Marth and Roy's Dtilt's are at least even. Roy's has very slightly less endlag, and is easier to use up close, but Marth's is a far superior spacing option due to the nature of the Falchion, it has more range, is more rewarding on a 2 frame ledge snap, once again due to his sword's nature, and he can convert off of his sourspot into Dancing Blade for Fair, or a KO move at certain percents if un-teched, which is incredibly hard to do due to the launch angle.

If anything, they're even in usage, though Marth's has more of a case to be better if you look at all points other than FAF.

 

[FamilyTeam]

So I wanted to take everyone's minds off of the tier list that I made (unless your mind wasn't on it) and ask this to everyone:
Why do you think that pikachu has fallen down on the tier list so much? Pikachu seems to have gotten much worse results for a while now and isn't considered very scary to play against like he once was. What do you think caused this?

Pikachu doesn't really have many people representing him either, and the one everyone remembers is ESAM.
Conversation abruptly stops there. I think ESAM didn't exactly do great at EVO.

 

[0mega_Nebula_1]

Pikachu doesn't really have many people representing him either, and the one everyone remembers is ESAM.
Conversation abruptly stops there. I think ESAM didn't exactly do great at EVO.

ESAM placed 25th at EVO this year. With ESAM not doing so well in tournament and pikachu not having very much representation outside of him, that's one of the main reasons for pikachus... dropoff in competitive play.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

You know



When people say they would not hesitate to nerf the top characters in the game and that power levels are meaningless, I just can't help, but think they simply don't understand how it effects the game on the other side of things besides balance. Yes, the game does get more balanced, but it also gets more limited. You start to restrict people on how they're able to play because top tiers generally have the most options to use in their arsenal. You'll begin to feel how weak the characters are based on how the characters interact with the the game mechanics (since those aren't getting adjusted in relation to the cast's capabilities). You can need the top characters and the next top characters all you want, but when you're not also tuning the game mechanics along with, you'll make the game far worse off. Ex. people will live over 200% and with how hard it is to kill in this game, that could make matches actually time out more. Instead of buffing the bottom 15 or 20 and making their capabilities far better and allowing them to do more stuff, we're taking down the trail blazers of the meta and making the meta lean on weaker characters with less able abilities and less options overall. Like, idk about you guys, but I'd rather see diddy vs mewtwo or sheik vs whoever than watch something GnW vs pac man where neither is unable to kill.

 

[TTTTTsd]

One actual big merit that Roy has over Marth (not one that makes him magically incredible or anything) is his tech chase game. Marth's is basically maybe a grab but Roy's techchase game means if he actually reads an option right you usually just die. Same for ledge traps really, or reaction to ledge options in general. If Roy puts you on the ledge it is legitimately very, very scary. Choose wisely.

Entertainingly due to lack of a tipper, Lucina's techchase is also better than Marth's. Again no this doesn't make either character magically better but it's never brought up for either of them.

 

[Murlough]

Where was this mindset before the Bayo nerfs?

rip in pepperoni Bayonetta Feb 3 2016 - May 18th 2016

Bayonetta was considered the best character in the game by the time the nerfs came...unless I missed something.

 

[Shollyboster]

that doesn't make him worse than Jiggs and Ganon.

and there's NO WAY Zard is worse than D3.

Part of me wants to disagree because I really like playing as Jigglypuff, but another part of me has to agree because of how light Puff is. I feel like there are suitable arguments on both sides. While Jigglypuff has Rest, Charizard has kill power in a side-b read or another kill move similar to that.

However, Charizard is SUPER DOOPER COMBO FOOD (dare I say WOMBO COMBO food?) and stuff and whatever, so I think we should just say that Sakurai needs to give both of these characters some love.

As for 'Dorf, I feel like he is really underrated. I've made several stock comebacks with 'Dorf because of how hard-hitting he is and his weight. No doubt he is a better character that Charizard.

Edit: (wombo combo)

I do think Charizard is better than Jigglypuff, and probably Ganondorf as well.

Does this mean that you think 'Dorf is better than Jigglypuff, or that Charizard is better than both?

d3 has better results than zard, honestly

I'm waiting for that magical Zard main to appear

IntroSpecktive please save us from this fresh hell

Zard weights more than Ganon (tho he still dies earlier than him to vertical knockback due to his high gravity and bellow average fall speed, his horizontal endurance is much better than Ganon's) and doesn't really kill that much later than him either. Sweetspot Bair kills earlier than Ganon's Fair at the ledge for example.
Zard is bad, but lets not say stuff like he is frail or struggles at killing. Every single one of his moves barring dash attack, down throw and down tilt are kill moves.
Also technically he is less of a combo bait than dk and bowser, not that that means much tho.

To be fair, (no pun intended) forward air for 'Dorf is just plain garbage. I'd say a different word but not entirely sure about this website's rules on profanity. Bair is just such a better move. I'm not going to say that Charizard is bad at killing, I'm simply going to say that Ganondorf has much better killing options. Besides,Ganondorf's side b is godlike on a character with terrible air mobility such as Charizard.

Although, comparing Ganondorf to Charizard is like comparing a moldy apple to an even moldier apple.

 

[Frihetsanka]

So he basically says "Zard is worse because some characters do what he wants a little better."
that doesn't make him worse than Jiggs and Ganon.

and there's NO WAY Zard is worse than D3.

King Dedede: 16 points
Ganondorf: 6 points
Jigglypuff: 6 points
Charizard: 4.5 points

Source: http://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/

By those results, King Dedede is #38, Charizard #49. Of course, results aren't everything, but I think King Dedede has good enough results to warrant not being bottom 3. I do think Charizard is better than Jigglypuff, and probably Ganondorf as well.

 

[|RK|]

Nvm, smh, off topic.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

People always keep mentioning how safe Roy's pokes are.

What they fail to mention is that a perfectly spaced aerial by Roy is one the least scary things to fight against. The 'threat' of taking like 5% and next to knockback hardly encourages people to go for a rash approach. Roy has to land about 4 or 5 solid hits with a spaced aerial to deal as much damage as the opponent can with one good opening due to Roy's pathetic disadvantaged state. Being 'safe' doesn't mean a lot when the risk/reward ratio is still awful.

If Roy supposedly has the potential to be non-low tier then it has to be through DED because that's a really good move.

 

[Shollyboster]

Roy has to land about 4 or 5 solid hits with a spaced aerial to deal as much damage as the opponent can with one good opening due to Roy's pathetic disadvantaged state. Being 'safe' doesn't mean a lot when the risk/reward ratio is still awful.

I think you just described Sheik post patch.

Well the thing about Shiek is if she hits you once she can hit you 10 more times after that and then combo into a kill move. This is not the case with Roy.

There's a Kappa there for a reason, guys.

 

[TDK]

The issue with Blazer is it puts him into free-fall, which means that Roy is suddenly opened up to be hit. And you all know what happens when Roy is opened up to be hit...

 

[dakotaisgreat]

I think you just described Sheik post patch.

Well the thing about Shiek is if she hits you once she can hit you 10 more times after that and then combo into a kill move. This is not the case with Roy.

 

[Goombo]

One actual big merit that Roy has over Marth (not one that makes him magically incredible or anything) is his tech chase game. Marth's is basically maybe a grab ...

Thats not true at all. Marths to go options in terms of tech chases are full dancing blade (can be used out of dash in both directions), he also can do it with Dolphin Slash (same, can kills about the time DB doesn't connect properly anymore) and C-bounce shildbreaker, which no one ever uses for some reasons, but can kill extremely early when tippered (which is not hard to execute if the tech is read right).

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Bayonetta was considered the best character in the game by the time the nerfs came...unless I missed something.

I don't think she ever won a tournament in the US. (Not sure about Japan.) We can all agree she was kind of borked, I think, but I'd hesitate to call her "best in the game" if she never won anything.

 

[arbustopachon]

Dorf because of how hard-hitting he is and his weight

Zard weights more than Ganon (tho he still dies earlier than him to vertical knockback due to his high gravity and bellow average fall speed, his horizontal endurance is much better than Ganon's) and doesn't really kill that much later than him either. Sweetspot Bair kills earlier than Ganon's Fair at the ledge for example.
Zard is bad, but lets not say stuff like he is frail or struggles at killing. Every single one of his moves barring dash attack, down throw and down tilt are kill moves.
Also technically he is less of a combo bait than dk and bowser, not that that means much tho.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The issue with Blazer is it puts him into free-fall, which means that Roy is suddenly opened up to be hit. And you all know what happens when Roy is opened up to be hit...

Blazer is upB? I was actually talking about side B but I confused the names. Whoops.

 

[Shollyboster]

Blazer is upB? I was actually talking about side B but I confused the names. Whoops.

Petition to call Roy's side-b "Dancing Blaze"

Side-B is Double-Edge Dance.

It's too late. I made the petition.