Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[ARGHETH]

Sanic is a plague right now with a lot of different players placings top 16 at the same time. Fox is almost law he places good. Also, Corrin has no results right guys?

Honestly, I like this placing. Slightly worse than Marth, but still in high tier.

Also, weren't people saying that Corrin only got results recently or something? I remember one list had him at around the same place as Robin...

 

[EternalFlare]

Hating Sonic is not a justifiable reason to nerf the character and shouldn't even merit discussion. The only real reason people discuss nerfing Sonic is because they don't like him, which is a shallow and insufficient reason. The character's existence and playstyle is not toxic, just that it can be frustrating to play against and maybe not that entertaining to watch, both of which are irrelevant.

Sonic most certainly deserves nerfs which have nothing to do with how fun he is to play against/watch.

It's stupid he gets invincibility on certain moves when he's already hard enough to catch. Most characters have no answer to a campy Sonic. They can't catch him or threaten him in any meaningful way.

And lately Sonics have really started to abuse this and the best Sonics including so called "aggressive" Sonics are playing this way and yielding stellar results. 6WX for instance, recently beat Ally at a tourny just before Evo by timing him out twice.

Which is fine, I respect play to win mindsets, everything is fair game. But you can't pretend that's balanced or healthy for the meta.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Honestly, I like this placing. Slightly worse than Marth, but still in high tier.

Also, weren't people saying that Corrin only got results recently or something? I remember one list had him at around the same place as Robin...

He got a flash in the pan to be sure a few weeks back. We don't know if its the typical mid tier "2-4 weeks of results then then falling off of the radar again" thing or if it will be more consistent.

 

[conTAgi0n]

Out of curiosity, I took four of the biggest tournaments from the last few months, and made a list by character of the players who reached top 16.

The tournaments included are EVO, CEO, GOML, and POUND.

As a disclaimer, let me acknowledge that nothing about my methodology was rigorous here. My selection of tournaments was based just on what I thought were most significant, and I counted secondaries if I was under the impression that they did significant work. Not very scientific I know, but it should be meaningful enough to support the point I want to make about how top level talent is spread across the cast.

Spoiler: full list

5 reps
- Mr. R, VoiD, Vinnie, False, K9
- Mew2King, Tweek, Leo, ANTi, PikaPika!
4 reps
- ZeRo, Zinoto, Nietono, K9
- KEN, Wrath, SuperGirlKels, K.I.D.Goggles
3 reps
- Mr. E, False, Leo
- ESAM, NAKAT, PikaPika! (I think he used some Pikachu, but I'm not sure)
- Larry Lurr, Ksev, NAKAT
2 reps
- Dabuz, falln
- Ally, ANTi
- Nairo, Marss
- Saj, Pink Fresh
- Kamemushi, ScAtt
- Day, Astro
- Trela, False
1 rep
- Abadango
- Hyuga
- K.I.D.Goggles
- Leo
- Alphicans
- DKwill
- San
- Dabuz
- NAKAT
- Ranai
- Earth
- Darkwolf
- ESAM

I counted 27 different characters (to be fair, some showed up only as secondaries), and 40 different players.

The upshot of this is that top level talent is spread very thinly across the cast. No doubt this is because of how much larger and better balanced the roster is in this game than in Melee or Brawl.

This makes it very easy for a great character to be conspicuously absent at the top 16 or even 32 of a given major or supermajor, for reasons that have nothing to do with how "viable" or whatever that character is. All it really takes is one or two of the top players with that character to have a bad day or just not show up. It's often remarked that 's results are hurt a lot by the fact that Shaky doesn't travel to many tournaments. Similarly, a lot of people argue (I think very reasonably) that the results of DLC characters suffer from the fact that the very best players already had established mains that were working for them by the time DLC came out. Then there is the question of how good the actual players are compared to each other. If Tweek and M2K are weaker players overall than Mr. R and VoiD (which I'm not necessarily claiming, just using as an example), then that would have a big impact on how good looks compared to at top level.


It is natural in a thread like this dissect the results of major tournaments and draw conclusions about the relative strength of various characters in the current meta game. However I think we need to be more wary of the fact that at the very top level (say, top 16 at majors and supermajors), the results for even the characters towards the top of this list are heavily dependent on a very small number of individuals, often just one or two.

This point has been touched on here before, but I thought it worth emphasizing, since a lot of people are still drawing big conclusions based just on the character spread in the last few top 16s. For instance, it's quite possible that is better than , but to conclude that just on the basis of the top 16 of the last few majors seems a little hasty to me. If M2K quit Melee tomorrow to devote himself fully to Smash 4, then it's very conceivable that the next few top 16s might support the opposite conclusion.

To sum this all up, if we want to restrict our conversation to how good characters are at the tippity top level of play, then we have to accept that results at this level are kind of limited in what they can tell us, since there are so few data points (i.e. top players) per character. Talking about a broader range of levels of play gives us a lot more data to work with, so if we want really data-driven discussions, then we need to consider more than just absolute top level play.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I don't think a lot of people care what you guys feel "deserve nerfs", I know I sure don't. Nerf/buff discussion can happen if there's a patch. We don't gain anything by complaining. If you want to discuss why moves are good and their applications and who can counter or deal with these moves and their applications then by all means be my guest! I would welcome such discussion! I think a discussion how to deal with Sonic's moves such as spin dash and who can do it best would be a perfect place to start!

 

[L9999]

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sott9h
Dunno if it is relevant or permitted, but Hyuga quits playing competitive Smash. Guess we'll stick with the Japanese Tinks and Zan for the Tink metagame. We already know the character is good but just saying...

 

[EternalFlare]

I don't think a lot of people care what you guys feel "deserve nerfs", I know I sure don't. Nerf/buff discussion can happen if there's a patch. We don't gain anything by complaining. If you want to discuss why moves are good and their applications and who can counter or deal with these moves and their applications then by all means be my guest! I would welcome such discussion! I think a discussio on how to deal with Sonic's moves such as spin dash and who can do it best would be perfect for right now.

The poster I responded to was claiming the only reason people wanted Sonic nerfs was because they dislike his playstyle. I'm merely pointing out there are clear overpowered things about the character.

His invincibility for instance, would be a problem even if he was the most aggressive/flashy character. It just makes little sense in terms of balance for him to have it. Even without that he'd still be good but much more manageable.

I think the best answer to spin dash personally is to...force Sonic to approach you instead. Which is why I think Cloud does well versus him as letting Cloud gain limit over and over is not something any character wants.

 

[Murlough]

If he isn't even the best character in the game then he isn't overpowered. End of story.

I'm going to be blunt, when was the last time Sonic won a major? I can't remember once. What does this mean? That he is beatable and has weaknesses. Learn them or continue to lose. Thats all there is to it.

I personally hope there are no more patches. If there are then low tier and some mid tier buffs are all we need in my opinion. Our best characters are obviously good but they aren't undefeatable monsters. Nerfing them would feel wrong.

 

[EternalFlare]

If he isn't the best character in the game then he isn't overpowered. End of story.

I'm going to be blunt (tis what I do), when was the last time Sonic won a major? I can't remember once. What does this mean? That he is beatable and has weaknesses. Learn them or continue to lose. Thats all there is to it.

He's won plenty of tournaments in Japan and as mentioned earlier, 6WX recently beat Ally and took MidWest Mayhem 4. To imply Sonic doesn't have results at the highest level is a bit silly.

Also most fighters generally have multiple top tiers that are significantly better than most of the cast, not just one which is what makes them overpowered. Otherwise that's like saying Melee Marth/Sheik/Falco/Puff/Peach are not overpowered and perfectly balanced because Fox is considered even better. Or Brawl Ice Climbers were fine because MK was better.

Anyway I suspect in the coming months we'll be seeing a lot of great results from Sonic players now that they have decided camping or "lame" play = optimal.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

is the of this game. Frustratingly good defensive options, a chore to play against and not exactly a crowd pleaser, but has clear weaknesses and counterplay that people neglect out of impatience and frustration.

I'm just kidding, I never played melee and I have no idea what I'm talking about. But it sounds smart and it could get me lots of likes in CCI.

tldr i don't play melee and sanic isn't that broken

 

[Murlough]

I didn't say nor imply he had no results. I couldn't remember him winning a major. So, Sonic has won one tournament in the US. Get the nerf hammer ready everyone! I don't care about what happens in japan. They are known for their inconsistency.

...overpowered means something much different to you then it does to me. My definition of overpowered would be something like "unable to be beaten." OVERPOWERED. As in too much power. Sonic doesn't have that. He is beatable if you learn the matchup.

What I was going with wasn't "Herr durr, Diddy Kong is in the game so Sonic isn't even that good!" I was saying that if Diddy is the best in the game then Sonic simply can't be "overpowered."

I don't want to say "git gud" because I feel like most of the time its scrubs who say it but seriously. Sonic isn't broke. Quit complaining and just learn the matchup.

EDIT: That would be because playing lame usually is optimal.

 

[LancerStaff]

If he isn't even the best character in the game then he isn't overpowered. End of story.

I personally hope there are no more patches. If there are then low tier and some mid tier buffs are all we need in my opinion. Our best characters are obviously good but they aren't undefeatable monsters. Nerfing them would feel wrong.

That's not really how it works...

It's... Eeerm, I think it's called the depression fallacy. Just because you lived a happier life then somebody else, even better then 90% of the people who've ever lived, doesn't mean you can't be sad. The reverse also applies, where there's nothing saying you can't be happy even if you live in a soggy box, even though very few people would say otherwise.

Applying it to fighting game balance... And the same kind of bias exists. You can argue fun factor all you want but fighting characters way stronger then yours isn't fun.

 

[Murlough]

That's not really how it works...

It's... Eeerm, I think it's called the depression fallacy. Just because you lived a happier life then somebody else, even better then 90% of the people who've ever lived, doesn't mean you can't be sad. The reverse also applies, where there's nothing saying you can't be happy even if you live in a soggy box, even though very few people would say otherwise.

Applying it to fighting game balance... And the same kind of bias exists. You can argue fun factor all you want but fighting characters way stronger then yours isn't fun.

Its your choice whether or not you play a character that can or can't handle Sonic. I also elaborated what I mean more in my next post.

 

[Samuelwisebaggins]

For the most part I agree we don't need nerfs. But would anyone really be opposed to Mewtwo's air dodge being tweaked?

 

[|RK|]

Pugwest posted his Marth MU chart:

https://twitter.com/Pugwest/status/755879816344121348

Numbers are backwards lol

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

The poster I responded to was claiming the only reason people wanted Sonic nerfs was because they dislike his playstyle. I'm merely pointing out there are clear overpowered things about the character.

His invincibility for instance, would be a problem even if he was the most aggressive/flashy character. It just makes little sense in terms of balance for him to have it. Even without that he'd still be good but much more manageable.

I think the best answer to spin dash personally is to...force Sonic to approach you instead. Which is why I think Cloud does well versus him as letting Cloud gain limit over and over is not something any character wants.

The last 4 or so pages were an argument about nerfing Mario. You're not the only one my comment somewhat applied to but yours was certainly better than others have been.

And on Sonics moves, would it really make a difference if he were hyper offensive and had the invincibility? I feel like the saying "the best defense is a good offense" would apply in that case and he'd just wreck house and still not get hit. And I was going to say, Cloud does well against Sonic due to amazing disjoints, Limit camping, and good enough mobility to somewhat keep up with Sonic. And we all know how easy Cloud is to play.

For the most part I agree we don't need nerfs. But would anyone really be opposed to Mewtwo's air dodge being tweaked?

Take Mewtwo to Duck Hunt or improve your air dodge punishes. Or both!

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Nothing is more ironic than whining about Mario on one page, then proceeding to ask for one of his worst matchups to get nerfed to the ground on the next page.

 

[LancerStaff]

Its your choice whether or not you play a character that can or can't handle Sonic. I also elaborated what I mean more in my next post.

It was also your choice to pick a character who could handle MK...

"Overpowered" means too strong. "Unbeatable" is unbeatable. Unbeatable... Doesn't really exist in Fighting games. We've gotten close though.

Legit, I don't see the difference between gutting the top 15 or giving the bottom 15 the Ike treatment. Power levels are meaningless.

 

[Rizen]

Pugwest posted his Marth MU chart:

https://twitter.com/Pugwest/status/755879816344121348

Numbers are backwards lol

It's interesting he thinks Marth has a slight advantage over Lucina. Probably because if Lucina killed Marth she'd cease to exist so she holds back, or tippers>even damage at close range.
I asked before but should Marth/Lucina and Pit/Dark Pit just be positioned together on tier lists? Since the buffs and patches the clones seem on par with their counterparts.

PS I agree Marth has a slight advantage over Link.

 

[TDK]

I know people aren't going to like hearing this, but the best way to deal with Sonic is to do what Sonic does: Get a % lead and then force him to approach. once you force Sonic to approach, try to stuff his approach and knock him away. Rinse and repeat until you win. If you're playing a slow character or a character that gets outbuttoned by Sonic, then get creative with your punishments.

 

[Murlough]

It was also your choice to pick a character who could handle MK...

"Overpowered" means too strong. "Unbeatable" is unbeatable. Unbeatable... Doesn't really exist in Fighting games. We've gotten close though.

Legit, I don't see the difference between gutting the top 15 or giving the bottom 15 the Ike treatment. Power levels are meaningless.

I have no clue what you mean by the first bit.

Too strong is about as close to unbeatable as it gets. Regardless, Sonic isn't broken and doesn't need a nerf. I don't get why this is hard to understand. Learn the matchup.

 

[Strong-Arm]

Its amazing how fast this thread falls apart the moment a really big event happens tbh.

Oh and whats peoples opinions/feelings of Doc?

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I know people aren't going to like hearing this, but the best way to deal with Sonic is to do what Sonic does: Get a % lead and then force him to approach. once you force Sonic to approach, try to stuff his approach and knock him away. Rinse and repeat until you win. If you're playing a slow character or a character that gets outbuttoned by Sonic, then get creative with your punishments.

I don't know if the tier list you posted at the bottom was attached intentionally or not but I think it's pretty valid

 

[|RK|]

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sott9h
Dunno if it is relevant or permitted, but Hyuga quits playing competitive Smash. Guess we'll stick with the Japanese Tinks and Zan for the Tink metagame. We already know the character is good but just saying...

...For all of nine seconds: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sotud7

 

[LancerStaff]

I asked before but should Marth/Lucina and Pit/Dark Pit just be positioned together on tier lists? Since the buffs and patches the clones seem on par with their counterparts.

The most Dark Pit gets used for nowadays is as a doubles Pit and the occasional Rosalina counterpick so definitely yes for them.

I have no clue what you mean by the first bit.

Too strong is about as close to unbeatable as it gets. Regardless, Sonic isn't broken and doesn't need a nerf. I don't get why this is hard to understand. Learn the matchup.

What's the true lowest bounds for balance? Any crappy PvP game has people justifing it's poor balance until they're blue in the face... Some more justified then others perhaps. Get gud and counterpick/ditto applies to basically any PvP game.

Yes, and there's still depressed people in the world. I called it a fallacy for a reason... It's less "Sonic and only Sonic deserves a nerf" but more "if I had a choice between nerfing [top 15 character] or not I would in a heartbeat."

 

[Yoshister]

Oh and whats peoples opinions/feelings of Doc?

Most of his more dedicated players overrate him and pretty much everyone else underrates him.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Ignoring the whole Mario fiasco right now (Outside of Mario beating Sheik 60/40?), I have a question:

What are the MU's like for against themselves and the Top 15 characters?


Need it for the chart I posted a while back/double-checking what I have so far~

I honestly consider Marth a top 15 character at this point. Amazing matchup spread/theory is great and 11th best results overall to match is just icing on the cake. Anyways, against DK the neutral is pretty even, but once DK gets offstage he loses. Edgeguarding his recovery is basically free for Marth. I haven't played the MK matchup that much however so I cant say anything there

Marth overall doesn't have that many bad matchups, going even with or beating most of the high/top tiers aside from Sheik really. Not even Sonic is as hard as people make it out to be

Oh yeah, and move down to the last place spot.

He is a lot better than last place lmao

Hes low tier sure but hes certainly not as bad as Jiggs, Gannon, Zelda, DDD, and I'm inclined to say Roy

 

[Strong-Arm]

I feel like people really underrate Doc, I dont blame them tho. Nobody uses him and there really isnt anyone out there pushing him super hard. I dont think hes amazing but I dont think hes bottom or low. I see him in mid as hes a solid character. But most people just look at him in a vacuum like "Oh his recovery sucks so he sucks" and ignore his crazy damage out put, cyclone giving him deceptively decent recovery and being god like at edgeguarding. Doc is slept on for sure imo, but I doubt we'll ever see much out of him. He'll probably remain niche.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Oh yeah, and move down to the last place spot.

Dude...

How is Charizard worse than or ?

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

I honestly consider Marth a top 15 character at this point. Against DK the neutral is pretty even, but once DK gets offstage he loses. Edgeguarding his recovery is basically free for Marth. I haven't played the MK matchup that much however so I cant say anything there

Marth overall doesn't have that many bad matchups, going even with or beating most of the high/top tiers aside from Sheik really. Not even Sonic is as hard as people make it out to be

Yeah, Marth is pretty good now. Looking at his MU's on my chart so far, and he is pretty solid.

I've plugged in Dabuz's, Zinoto's, and other's thoughts into the chart so far. Going to add Pug's thoughts in, and then post it when I am done. Or tomorrow if I go to sleep before that.

Adding Marth and MK to my previous chart. Omitting DK for now.

 

[TDK]

Dude...

How is Charizard worse than or ?

Because Jiggs and Ganon can randomly kill you at 60.

I don't know if the tier list you posted at the bottom was attached intentionally or not but I think it's pretty valid

I was going to make a post but wasn't sure how to describe it so I just deleted it, Turns out I didn't delete the image correctly. Glad you like it, though!

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Because Jiggs and Ganon can randomly kill you at 60.

So can Charizard?

I'm not sure why you're arguing a heavy with a kill throw can't kill.

 

[Aaron1997]

What does Everyone think of Currently? Nario and Marss have been getting subpar Results for there standards. Her Grab is a liability sometimes and the lack of a good Ground game and Rising Aerials hurts here. Also a losing Match vs doesn't help either. Not sure if Zss is Top 10 or not right now.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

What does Everyone think of Currently?

Honestly.

I think it's less of getting nerfed or being bad than most people figuring out how to deal with her.

Counterplay happened and it became common.

 

[Lorde]

If he isn't even the best character in the game then he isn't overpowered.

Where was this mindset before the Bayo nerfs?

rip in pepperoni Bayonetta Feb 3 2016 - May 18th 2016

 

[Shady Shaymin]

What does Everyone think of Currently? Nario and Marss have been getting subpar Results for there standards. Her Grab is a liability sometimes and the lack of a good Ground game and Rising Aerials hurts here. Also a losing Match vs doesn't help either. Not sure if Zss is Top 10 or not right now.

While I think the whole ZSS has a bad neutral meme is nonsense, it is true that she doesn't have some of the incredible tools in neutral that those above her do. No rising aerial pokes, limited options out of a dash compared to those above her with amazing dash attacks and dash grabs. Maybe Nairo's aggro style isn't the best way to play her anymore? Idk man.

Where on Earth has @Trifroze been?

 

[Y2Kay]

...For all of nine seconds: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sotud7

Wow, I'm suprised Vikki was kind enough to have faith in him. So many people where convinced that Hyuga was a monster and was no longer after what happened, and it was kinda sad. So things worked out the best it could've.

 

[Nu~]

There may be an even bigger scandal behind all of this...


But this is wayyy off topic.



So back to ZSS, how relevant will she stay now that the nerfs have made her that much more volatile?

Edit: censored

 

[TDK]

Guess this was overdue, but...

Spoiler: TDK's essay on why Charizard is the worst character in the game

Charizard has a ton of problems. The first problem is that his moveset doesn't work. I'm not sure how to describe it, other than Charizard tries to both approach and land a grab while also trying to stuff approaches or punish your opponent. He has a pretty solid grab game at low % and a moderately threatening kill throw (though it's overrated as a kill throw because it's doubly hurt by the "DI Down and Away" philosophy, as in that's the best way to DI his throw and it's also the best way to DI when being hit up in general. The rest of his tools, though, don't compliment his grab game as all. He has no real setups into grab except maybe Jab, and he has just two follow ups off of grab that are remotely threatening. Forward Air and Up Air are cool, but Up Air, the one that kills, can be DI'd rather easily so the charizard can't get it since Charizard's air speed/acceleration/gravity/whateverfeaturemakesyoumoveintheair is actually pretty poor, reducing his follow-up potential. Grab nonwithstanding, Charizard's average toolset is decent at best. Most of his toolkit is very punishable and starts up too slowly to be of use, and Charizard is in general a character that thrives off of hard reads and punishes while also being comboed and punished hard by the majority of the viable cast simply because his moves come out too slow to break out of combos, and while he is blessed with Super Armor, he can't land at all because his super armor option has a problem that stops it from working, but once he gets in he can mess you up.

Does that sound familiar? Perhaps it reminds you of a few ... other characters in this game? Maybe... Bowser and DK?

Charizard's biggest flaw is his toolset is inferior to bowser and DK. Charizard's fast, powerful back air is a worse Version of DK's faster, equally powerful back air that can be comboed into from an up throw. Charizard's grab game is completely outclassed by the Ding-Dong and DK and Bowser's low % combos in general, and their high % ones. Zard's up throw killing at 120? Pales in comparison to the Ding-Dong killing at half that. Bowser and DK have much better, more coherent tools for grapplers, and there is no reason to play Charizard and get bodied to the moon in back over DK or Bowser. Sure, they're all going to really, really struggle to break out of combos, but DK and Bowser live longer, kill earlier, and have a better chance of breaking out of those combos.

The biggest reason I put Charizard below Jiggs and Ganon is because Jiggs and Ganon all have their own unique tools and playstyles (yes I know ganon's a semiclone, but he plays nothing like Falcon). There is ZERO reason to use Charizard over DK and Bowser unless you really like Charizard. If that's the case, I can't stop you, but I can tell you that you'd have more success for a similar playstyle with DK. Charizard has no distinguishing traits from the other heavies outside of having a stock cap throw and just generally being the worst heavy in the game.

 

[FeelMeUp]

So he basically says "Zard is worse because some characters do what he wants a little better."
that doesn't make him worse than Jiggs and Ganon.

and there's NO WAY Zard is worse than D3.