Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Yoshister]

No.

Mario's kills, Dr. Mario's doesn't thanks to the angle. The angle is not "debatably better". It's outright worse.

Uh


It depending on positioning.
Doc's up smash sends opponents behind him if they're in front of him or in front of him if they're behind him.

This means it'll either kill much earlier or later than Mario's, depending on positioning.
It can kill of the side at 80% if you hit your opponent in front of you while facing away from the ledge your closest to.

However
If you hit you opponent from behind you at the same spot, they won't die until >150%.

 

[Fenny]

No, because Mac's KO Punch works independently from the rest of his moveset. If you could sacrifice it to improve his recovery, then you could make that argument.
I feel like most people don't understand how limit is both Cloud's greatest strength and his greatest weakness.

???????

How the hell could Limit possibly be a weakness, let alone his greatest? It gives him crazy mobility for someone with an already stellar attack range, and forces most characters in the game to play defensively because they don't want to get a glowing kanji symbol carved into their face or be hit with a surprise Blade Beam. Not to mention the fact that Limit Charge itself is an approach forcer in itself and charges itself as a battle goes on anyway.

Literally the only downside that comes with it is that he jumps a bit lower, and that hardly means much when L-Climhazzard has more than sufficient vertical distance for recovery and god forbid that godforsaken up air of his reaches only a bit lower.

 

[GeneralLedge]

How the hell could Limit possibly be a weakness, let alone his greatest?

I can only guess "he has to stop to charge it!" is a 'weakness' (or "he sometimes doesn't have it"??).

- Except, he can cancel the charge with shield or airdodge
- He earns limit for free by getting hit
- He has no obligation to ever actually spend limit
- It lasts indefinitely until Cloud dies. How Cloud would die while he has Limit is anyone's guess.


Now, if Cloud dropped any of the four bullets above, then I might consider Limit... less obtuse, maybe? But something that rewards you isn't a weakness.

 

[Jams.]

Other benefits of Doc USmash include D-Throw at low % > Usmash > Bair or Regrab depending on their next option, USmash OoS, and USmash as a forward facing anti air.

Is dthrow->usmash a true combo at low percents? Does it come with strings attached like being character specific or only applicable in a small percent range? I'm very curious, because I see 2ManyCooks miss this follow-up a ton, so I never thought that it was a true combo.

I suppose, though couldn't you make the same argument for Little Mac's KO punch? Yet that has significantly more endlag compared to Cloud's LBCS (although I suppose you could argue that Mac's KO Punch should get buffed).

Little Mac's KO Punch ignores shield. This strength cannot be understated.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Is dthrow->usmash a true combo at low percents? Does it come with strings attached like being character specific or only applicable in a small percent range? I'm very curious, because I see 2ManyCooks miss this follow-up a ton, so I never thought that it was a true combo.



Little Mac's KO Punch ignores shield. This strength cannot be understated.

D-Throw > USmash is true on fastfallers, floaties you have to guess usually, but it's not so bad.

Otherwise D-Throw > Utilt still works, but I prefer USmash. If they hit a button they get hit so it works out.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

I want to see more characters with lingering nairs(Fox players, Sheik players, Pikachus) nair Mario's up b for the free stock. I'm watching people let him back for free, which is foolish

Another important thing I'd like to make note of:
In my opinion, Marth players have the most developed edgeguarding of any character mains.

Mario's up B has disjointed range and very good base knockback.

If you try to interrupt it with a lingering nair and get hit by it the wrong way, you could be looking at a stage spike that will kill almost any character (you'll be sent way too far to recover).

If you hit Mario out of his double jump and up B, yeah he's usually dead, but so are most characters. The difference his up B is so much harder and riskier to try to interrupt.

And to those above saying "OMGZ Mario's up Smash is punishable what are you talking about just tilt/grab/dash attack!" I am no longer going to respond to these kinds of posts because if you don't understand risk/reward or the concept of big vs small punishes by now, I can't explain it to you.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

???????

How the hell could Limit possibly be a weakness, let alone his greatest? It gives him crazy mobility for someone with an already stellar attack range, and forces most characters in the game to play defensively because they don't want to get a glowing kanji symbol carved into their face or be hit with a surprise Blade Beam. Not to mention the fact that Limit Charge itself is an approach forcer in itself and charges itself as a battle goes on anyway.

Literally the only downside that comes with it is that he jumps a bit lower, and that hardly means much when L-Climhazzard has more than sufficient vertical distance for recovery and god forbid that godforsaken up air of his reaches only a bit lower.

What I mean is Cloud's reliance on limit. It's like a crutch. A crutch that can be used as an incredibly dangerous weapon, but a crutch nonetheless.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

What I mean is Cloud's reliance on limit. It's like a crutch. A crutch that can be used as an incredibly dangerous weapon, but a crutch nonetheless.

But Cloud does not rely on limit. It's just a bonus. His great neutral game doesn't depend on it and he has plenty of kill power even without it (up Smash, down Smash,fSmash, bair).

 

[TTTTTsd]

But Cloud does not rely on limit. It's just a bonus. His great neutral game doesn't depend on it and he has plenty of kill power even without it (up Smash, down Smash,fSmash, bair).

2 of those 4 moves kill a lot less than they used to.

I'm not going to say any of those options are bad but only one of those can be done out of a dash on the ground.

Realistically he used to be very good at killing without Limit. It was mostly his Uair that did this really well, they fixed how dumb it was. There's a reason most of the Cloud kills you see are attributed to his Limit moves. They're just vastly more effective than his normal ones are. They pretty clearly made sure his kill options outside of his Limit moves got worse bar USmash which is still pretty decent but not fast nor slow (just average) and Bair which is the most common other way he kills but it only works with optimal positioning otherwise they live well into the 140% range if you're going for Bair anywhere but near the ledge.

Limit is not a weakness though, but Cloud as a character without Limit would be uhhhh....unique, that's a word I'll use. Relying on a mechanic like Limit is not a fault at all, the mechanic is incredibly strong. It's basically a fighting game super bar that he can charge, and he can unleash pretty solid supers with it (though one is obviously the move of choice). Entertainingly, Cloud's poor disadvantage means you are going to be building Limit quite a bit (not that a good disadvantage would make him a worse character, just a funny lil thing I noticed.)

 

[Emblem Lord]

What I mean is Cloud's reliance on limit. It's like a crutch. A crutch that can be used as an incredibly dangerous weapon, but a crutch nonetheless.

Reading this put me in the hospital.

**** hurts fam.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Going back to Mario being underrated another point I forgot to make is how unlike other top tiers he has no glaring weaknesses. Most other top tiers follow a pattern of being super strong in some areas but noticeably weak in others.

Diddy has amazing neutral and some of the most safe/reliable (not early) kill power. But a very exploitable recovery.

Rosa has some of the best defensive neutral in the game and has arguably the best juggle game. But once again a very exploitable recovery + taking out Luma makes her significantly worse.

Sheik has great neutral, the best top tier recovery, but can't kill at reasonable percents reliably.

Sonic has the best grounded mobility + invincibility on moves letting him control neutral in ways no other character can. But has low kill power overall.

Cloud has great neutral, great kill power but probably the worst top tier recovery.

You get the idea. It's like these other top tiers are 10/10 in some areas of the game but are 5/10 in others. Mario on the other hand I'd argue is much more well rounded. He's not the best at anything but he's probably 8/10 in almost all areas. There's no glaring obvious weakness people can exploit about him.

Even his supposed bad matchups, top Marios tend to do work in and often beat the best players using these supposed counterpick characters. Take Cloud for instance, everyone says he counters Mario but that's not what results show.

 

[FamilyTeam]

You get the idea. It's like these other top tiers are 10/10 in some areas of the game but are 5/10 in others. Mario on the other hand I'd argue is much more well rounded. He's not the best at anything but OVERALL he's probably 8/10 in almost all areas. There's no glaring obvious weakness people can exploit about him.

Mario's range isn't great in the slightest.
Also, without a double jump, his recovery doesn't really go anywhere.
I thought of two weaknesses of his in just under 5 seconds...

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Mario's range isn't great in the slightest.
Also, without a double jump, his recovery doesn't really go anywhere.
I thought of two weaknesses of his in just under 5 seconds...

Most characters in this game including most good characters don't have incredible disjointed range.

If it were that important all sword characters would be top tier.

He has extremely good aerials and aerial mobility that more than make up for it.

Likewise, most recoveries suffer without a double jump, how is that exclusive to Mario? His great air mobility combined with an unreactable, disjointed up B more than makes up for it, his recovery is not bad at all.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Mario:
range sucks
frontal approach tools blow
doesn't have reliable methods of killing aside from a single punishable move
has a mediocre projectile
can't reliably do major damage without grabbing you

i wish people would stop saying he doesn't have weaknesses

 

[Ethan7]

Maybe Mario is just more polarized than we thought. Also, he doesn't exactly fall off at top level play if you ask me.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Mario:
range sucks
frontal approach tools blow
doesn't have reliable methods of killing aside from a single punishable move
has a mediocre projectile
can't reliably do major damage without grabbing you

i wish people would stop saying he doesn't have weaknesses

He doesn't have a sword but I fail to see how his range sucks. It's not the best but it's not bad either, it's certainly no Pikachu. Besides he can use FLUDD to push opponent's to the corner where that's going to matter a lot less anyway. Marios don't do this enough but it's an incredible option in a game that's so much about stage control and positioning.

His bair/nair can string into grab. Also almost no character in this game can deal guaranteed big damage combos without getting a grab so I fail to see how that's a Mario exclusive weakness. It's not like several other characters get 30+ damage true combos off a fair or something.

Mario is weaker without his back to the opponent but why would you not have your back to the opponent? It's not like the game limits you from doing it considering RAR is a thing since Brawl.

Here's the thing. All these supposed weakness if weaknesses at all are so minor, they don't reflect a ton in high level play. Everyone says Mario doesn't have range and can get walled out yet we see Marios beating Marths, Rosalinas, Clouds etc.

Here's a recent example: False vs Anti at CEO:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVHij6YZZVg

False despite being a top Marth got rocked and at no point did it look like Anti had trouble getting in due to lack of range/disjoints. Yeah you can argue Anti is just better than False, but regardless they both made it very far in the tournament and if Mario could truly get walled out that easily we should be seeing SOME indication of it in high level play.

Also I take back Mario not being the best at anything, in terms of damage output he's arguably the best top tier at this point. His moves just string into one another so well with or without grabs. And even if you're right and he sometimes slightly struggles at getting in, when he does get in his damage output is high enough to make up for it.

On the other hand the weaknesses I've listed with the other top tiers, are not theory crafting I've SEEN top level players lose sets because of them. We see top level Sheiks dropping games because they couldn't close out a stock. Or Diddys/Cloud losing because they got gimped offstage. I should not have to post examples since it happens so often.

 

[Nah]

It's not so much if a character has weaknesses, but if they're ones that matter. Pre-patch Sheik/Diddy had weaknesses too but we all know how that went.

I don't think that Mario is OP though

 

[SaltyKracka]

Point of order.

Every time I see somebody bring up "but X character dies offstage if you take their second jump", I cringe a little.

It's not actually anything like unique.

Of course they die offstage if you take their second jump! The second jump is a crucial recovery tool!

The fact that there are characters who don't usually die if they're knocked offstage without a second jump (here's looking at you,) just goes to show how incredibly free recovering has become in this game!

So please, stop bringing it up like it's a salient point.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Point of order.

Every time I see somebody bring up "but X character dies offstage if you take their second jump", I cringe a little.

It's not actually anything like unique.

Of course they die offstage if you take their second jump! The second jump is a crucial recovery tool!

The fact that there are characters who don't usually die if they're knocked offstage without a second jump (here's looking at you,) just goes to show how incredibly free recovering has become in this game!

So please, stop bringing it up like it's a salient point.

Some characters are affected by this more than others, it's what I was trying to convey, and even you acknowledge it.
Also this feels like the "Smash 4 has no edgeguard" debate all over again.

 

[Mr. Johan]

In acknowledgement of the "He doesn't throw Usmash in neutral" debate:

He threw 3 Usmashes in 4 seconds against Kamemushi Game 1 of Grand Finals, with no other moves inbetween. He then charged a 4th one and caught Kame out of shield with it.

 

[Nobie]

Here's a list of characters with better range than Mario.

 

[Ethan7]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Ulevo]

Point of order.

Every time I see somebody bring up "but X character dies offstage if you take their second jump", I cringe a little.

It's not actually anything like unique.

Of course they die offstage if you take their second jump! The second jump is a crucial recovery tool!

The fact that there are characters who don't usually die if they're knocked offstage without a second jump (here's looking at you,) just goes to show how incredibly free recovering has become in this game!

So please, stop bringing it up like it's a salient point.

The point is not whether a character will die without their second jump, but whether or not they are reliant on using it to get back. What makes recoveries like Zero Suit's among the best is that you rarely have a chance to take their jump away because their other recovery tools are good enough on their own. Characters like Cloud on the other hand do not have the luxury of keeping their double jump in reserve everytime they are off stage.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Ignoring the whole Mario fiasco right now (Outside of Mario beating Sheik 60/40?), I have a question:

What are the MU's like for against themselves and the Top 15 characters?


Need it for the chart I posted a while back/double-checking what I have so far~

 

[C0rvus]

I thought the consensus was that DK had an advantage over Mario? Then again, Anti is a NY player, so he probably plays against Will and/or Vex regularly enough. He might know something we don't.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

I thought the consensus was that DK had an advantage over Mario? Then again, Anti is a NY player, so he probably plays against Will and/or Vex regularly enough. He might know something we don't.

Yeah, I already have it charted that DK has the advantage over Mario/I am well aware of that one, lol

 

[Ropalme1914]

Ignoring the whole Mario fiasco right now (Outside of Mario beating Sheik 60/40?), I have a question:

What are the MU's like for against themselves and the Top 15 characters?


Need it for the chart I posted a while back/double-checking what I have so far~

I know thatvsis even, andvsis in Ryu advantage, probably +1. I think thatvsis even, but I saw some people saying that it is slighty advantage for Ryu.

 

[Shaya]

-19~16 on a high damage move (shield push back) is pretty excellent.
Not too many characters would have oos punishes for it, it becomes a game of out of dash punishes.
Fortunately most of the cast has a 9ish frame dash grab, so given 12~9 frames to punish between early and late hit it's generally feasible for most of the cast (but I'm sure there would be some with initial dash or dash grab/attack length combinations that disallow it).
A sizable subset have possible dash attacks, dash aerials, side/up specials (DragonPunches, Marth's dancing blade) or even standing actions (swords / tethers / items).
Edit: oh yeah and some up smashes too.

Contrary to popular belief, I'd say tournament going players think Mario is very powerful given his winning many super majors in recent memory and who knows what could happen (assuming "nintendo is paying attention"), Mario's up smash is [was] a meme / easy ice breaker smash conversation starter (combined with, "this character is barely top 10" according to youknowwho) at evo~

 

[Thinkaman]

I chose my words carefully because I think the angle on Mario U-smash is clearly better than Doc's. But someone could still highlight the situations where it can KO sooner (namely edgeguarding) and argue that those situations matter more. You, I, and most people in this thread are unlikely to agree, but it's a pretty reasonable argument to make.

Anyway, if we're going to waste time complaining about stuff we want changed, why settle for changing Mario U-smash, of all things? Remove Sonic from the game; go big or go home.

 

[Yoshister]

Doc would love to have Mario's up smash angle.

But hey, at least we have Up Smash > Up smash at low percents.

Plus, our up smash is still a phenomenal anti-air.

 

[Fenny]

I chose my words carefully because I think the angle on Mario U-smash is clearly better than Doc's. But someone could still highlight the situations where it can KO sooner (namely edgeguarding) and argue that those situations matter more. You, I, and most people in this thread are unlikely to agree, but it's a pretty reasonable argument to make.

Anyway, if we're going to waste time complaining about stuff we want changed, why settle for changing Mario U-smash, of all things? Remove Sonic from the game; go big or go home.

Just take his shield out of Spin Dash option away from him.

Would probably send him tumbling down the tiers, and I'm perfectly okay with that. Because campy Sanic is like the one thing I hate the most in this game

 

[Nidtendofreak]

>mfw I don't have a problem with campy Sonic, either playing against it or watching it.

Better than watching Sheik doing Sheik things.

 

[soniczx123]

Just take his shield out of Spin Dash option away from him.

Would probably send him tumbling down the tiers, and I'm perfectly okay with that. Because campy Sanic is like the one thing I hate the most in this game

Buff him somehow so that he stays relevant and I'm okay with that.

You have to give him somekind of approach game in return of allowing him to not force approaches.

 

[Fenny]

>mfw I don't have a problem with campy Sonic, either playing against it or watching it.

Better than watching Sheik doing Sheik things.

Wew, different strokes I guess

Can't get enough of Mr R and VoiD's Sheik play. Which is funny because I just can't play as her myself lmao

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Just take his shield out of Spin Dash option away from him.

Would probably send him tumbling down the tiers, and I'm perfectly okay with that. Because campy Sanic is like the one thing I hate the most in this game

Yea take out a core(imo) element out of a character just because you don't like watching them/facing them.

Sigh what has our community come to? Marios upsmash is not broken, players just don't go against it well. I don't know what more to say than stop conplaining when a character wins a super major. If a Zelda wins SSC people would be doing the same thing because if someone wins something big, he's too good, so we say that they are busted.

 

[Illuminose]

Hating Sonic is not a justifiable reason to nerf the character and shouldn't even merit discussion. The only real reason people discuss nerfing Sonic is because they don't like him, which is a shallow and insufficient reason. The character's existence and playstyle is not toxic, just that it can be frustrating to play against and maybe not that entertaining to watch, both of which are irrelevant.

 

[Shaya]

I believe Thinkaman was throwing out a joke, not opening the floor for "nerf Sonic" discussions.

How many times must we go over this?

 

[Iron Kraken]

Not sure if this got any attention previously, but a week before EVO, Kirihara faced off against Abadango in Japan.

Winner's Finals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzvxLA1Md58

Grand Finals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETAJOlDiybs

These sets further drive home that this match up is really weird. Rosa dominates the neutral in a game that is dominated by neutral, but MK is always just an up-tilt or a dash attack away from killing Rosa - which Abadango does repeatedly, as I'll outline here.

- In Game 2 of Winner's Finals, both players are on their lost stock, but Kirihara has a 119% to 11% damage lead. Abadango lands a dash attack with his opponent at 11% and wins the game.

- In Game 3 of Winner's Finals, Abadango takes Kirihara's first stock on an up-tilt at 51%. Despite this, Kirihara has an 88% to 12% lead on the last stock. Abadango lands an up-tilt at 12% and wins the game.

- In Game 4 of Winner's Finals, Abadango lands a dash attack at 13% and takes the stock. Despite this, Kirihara comes back to tie up the stocks and the %s, but Abadango lands another dash attack at 55% and takes the set.

- In Game 1 of Grand Finals Set 2, both players are on last stock and the %s are tied, but Abadango lands an up-tilt at 27% and takes the game.

- In Game 3 of Grand Finals Set 2, Abadango lands a dash attack at 17% and takes the first stock. Despite this, Kirihara comes back to take a lead 134% to 83%, but loses the game when he whiffs a punish on MK's missed side-b, which in turn gives MK a free kill to take the game.

- In Game 4 of Grand Finals Set 2, Abadango lands an up-tilt at 14% and takes the first stock. But this time, Kirihara manages to win the game anyway!

And despite all of these ridiculously early death strings (8 of them between the 13 games they played!), Kirihara actually manages to win the tournament! Most of Kirihara's wins were two stocks. He essentially dominated the match 95% of the time, but Abadango would only need one dash attack or up-tilt to change the outcome of a game. So again, it's a weird match up in that many ways Rosa dominates it, but MK only needs one opening. Overall the match up still sucks, but I still think it's at least doable as a solo Rosa main.

 

[BSP]

Here's a list of characters with better range than Mario.

Sonic and Luigi should be in here too.

Mario:
range sucks
frontal approach tools blow
doesn't have reliable methods of killing aside from a single punishable move
has a mediocre projectile
can't reliably do major damage without grabbing you

i wish people would stop saying he doesn't have weaknesses

Adding to this, he doesn't have a good button to cover below him when he's in the air. When you combine this with his lack of a burst movement escape option, his landing isn't the best. Before someone brings up top 10 air speed, remember that he drifts about as fast as Robin runs.

I would disagree on your last point though. Outside of jab, Fair, tfilt, smashes, and specials, pretty much everything else Mario has confirms into something else.

I think some are trivializing Mario's approach or lack thereof a bit. Yes, he will get in eventually and most likely run a train on you when he does, but "eventually" could be after he has taken lots of damage from pokes or possibly even died. I think we're overestimating just how fast he moves. He runs as fast as Ryu and Bayonetta, and his air speed is top 10, but that's still only about as fast as Robin's dash. Couple that with his pitiful range and weak frontal approach options, he doesn't have a free ticket into close combat where he shines. I need to go find who said this a while back, but somebody said mario's weaknesses only really shine when you outplay him in neutral: they're right, outside of him landing of course.

That being said, he's so effective once he gets in that these weaknesses don't cripple him. Let's not act like they aren't there though. Nakat vs Ally from EVO this past weekend is a good example of Mario's weaknesses being exploited imo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_JFRhdtE2Q) ; yes, we see Mario jack up Fox usually once he gets in, but NAKAT's play also shows that Mario doesn't get in for free. I think Anti said getting potentially walled out as Mario is a thing from his CEO interview as well.

 

[Ulevo]

Ignoring the whole Mario fiasco right now (Outside of Mario beating Sheik 60/40?), I have a question:

What are the MU's like for against themselves and the Top 15 characters?


Need it for the chart I posted a while back/double-checking what I have so far~

I would say Meta Knight is even with most of the top tiers with some +1/-1 here and there. Meta Knight mirror match is very volatile due to the punish game being so polarized.