Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[TTTTTsd]

Mario's usmash isn't much safer than other anti-landing usmashes like Rosa's, Cloud's, Tink, Yoshi, etc... It's just mario has no aerial kill move (relevant to the landing chain anyway) so he's trying to lead them to the ground for usmash more than those other characters which can kill them much more consistently in the air. Any added safeness likely stems from this.

Truly, mario would be way better over with luigi or doc's usmash.

I would say only Doc's tbh. Luigi's is a very good USmash but its extended hitbox comes with a sourspot.

Doc just takes the best of Luigi (longer hit duration but Doc's has a better hitbox even) and the best of Mario (no sourspot) and then cranks it up even FURTHER by having superior knockback growth and MORE damage than Mario's, making the less BKB Doc's USmash has not really a problem as it's still much much stronger. It's really an insane move, don't give it to anyone with a runspeed of 1.5 or higher. That's how good Doc USmash is.

 

[Luco]

When I come in and talk about certain strengths pertaining to certain characters (such as 'Mario appears to be strong and here's why'), the end goal isn't to talk about nerfs but rather to talk about how these strengths do and don't affect match-ups. People were very quick to point out "big" and well-known MUs (Rosa-Ness is probably the most well-known case of a MU that people know of prolifically, even if not in very much depth outside of edge-guarding) but we kinda lose track the more we delve. To some posters here that certainly isn't an issue for them because they've been keeping tabs on everyone, but to the general public most people have no idea what 90%+ of the MUs we have in this game actually look like in theory.

I think the more we discuss MUs intricately, the easier it will be to unravel the game's meta for a broader audience in the future.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

has a debatable better angle

No.

Mario's kills, Dr. Mario's doesn't thanks to the angle. The angle is not "debatably better". It's outright worse.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

When I come in and talk about certain strengths pertaining to certain characters (such as 'Mario appears to be strong and here's why'), the end goal isn't to talk about nerfs but rather to talk about how these strengths do and don't affect match-ups. People were very quick to point out "big" and well-known MUs (Rosa-Ness is probably the most well-known case of a MU that people know of prolifically, even if not in very much depth outside of edge-guarding) but we kinda lose track the more we delve. To some posters here that certainly isn't an issue for them because they've been keeping tabs on everyone, but to the general public most people have no idea what 90%+ of the MUs we have in this game actually look like in theory.

I think the more we discuss MUs intricately, the easier it will be to unravel the game's meta for a broader audience in the future.

He said

I'm really starting to believe Mario needs significant nerfs.

. That's clear cut as it gets if you ask me.

 

[Luco]

He said . That's clear cut as it gets if you ask me.

There's some grey area between the lines of discussion "This character is really really strong" and "this character is overwhelmingly strong". Language is important - the latter implies a more direct sense of unfairness and quickly translates to 'needs nerfs' even when that wasn't the actual sentiment. I realised what I said very early on to start this discussion way back on page 537 was grey area and wasn't sure if you were picking on that as evidence to "these discussions always lead to nerf discussion", so I wanted to clarify myself. Plenty of paraphrasing going on here, but hopefully you catch what I mean.

On a more relevant note, can we talk quickly about Lucario? 13th at EVO for a character such as Luc feels big to me. A lot of people don't talk openly of Lucario like he's a top 20 character, he kinda sits awkwardly in people's minds because (maybe) of his natural volatile-ness. I wonder if that's changing now.

 

[HoSmash4]

Is just very silly.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

I don't know if this is the time or place, but I just wanted to say:
If Cloud's Dair was his Nair, no one would complain about its duration.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

Cloud's dair is too long. I'm starting to think he needs significant nerfs.

 

[Krysco]

******************
So with the discussion of Mario's usmash, I decided to test who could duck under it and there's the list. Couldn't do it till now since I worked a night shift. If the character has an asterisk to the right of them (or next line in the case for Sonic) then they can only avoid it in certain circumctances. Also, no one, not even Kirby, WFT or G&W can duck under the back hit. The characters listed are only able to duck the front hit.

Spoiler: Special circumstances

can duck it except when they do their idle animation while ducking.
can only duck it while facing away from Mario
all need to be certain distances away. For example, Robin and Sonic need to be at the tail end of where the hitbox goes while Marcina at the very least needs to be a particular distance away, not too close or too far. Idle animations may cause issues.
can barely duck it at a certain distance but can crawl under it much more easily.

Those without an asterisk can duck under it no matter what, whether it's right next to him or further away.

Edit: Also, no character head for it but Luma can duck under it too. Seemed kinda iffy like Marcina and the bunch they're with. Rosa can't duck it.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

Cloud's dair is too long. I'm starting to think he needs significant nerfs.

No. Not before all the characters who are still better than him.

 

[TTTTTsd]

No.

Mario's kills, Dr. Mario's doesn't thanks to the angle. The angle is not "debatably better". It's outright worse.

uhhh if you AA near the ledge it kills significantly earlier (like, almost 20% earlier). If Doc USmash hits you and he's facing away from the ledge and he's near it, you just die. Period.

It depends on stage position but the move is either roughly on par in terms of kill power (maybe slightly worse if you're at a REALLY bad position but the KBG of 117 really helps this move scale with Rage). There's also no real optimal DI for it which makes it really stupid on small blastzone stages like Smashville and T&C. If we're talking center stage the average is 115-120% with absolutely no Rage but it gets significantly better based on position and Rage (ofc) EDIT: With optimal DI the move can kill a little bit later, not a massive detriment but more unfortunate. Assuming the opponent gets the optimal DI, ofc. Anyone reading this please disregard the VASTLY HIGHER kill power bit.

There was a point in time when Dr. Mario's USmash did not kill very well at all however. It was when they first did the angle change, before they adjusted the hitbox duration and KBG. My citation is that I've spent literally my life on this character. I probably shouldn't have, but I have.

Other benefits of Doc USmash include D-Throw at low % > Usmash > Bair or Regrab depending on their next option, USmash OoS, and USmash as a forward facing anti air.

Dr. Mario is literally Mario with a mostly universally better moveset (seriously his jab is so much better it's incredible) but he is a good poster boy example for how mobility is super relevant in this game.

 

[Frihetsanka]

No. Not before all the characters who are still better than him.

Nerf all top 7-8 characters maybe? It's not like they have to be significant nerfs, but they could tone them down a bit. Also buff low-tiers and low-mid tiers (and probably mid tiers as well).

Cloud would still be a very strong character even if his down-air lasted, say, 2 frames shorter, or if his limit break took 2-3 seconds longer to charge. They could probably nerf him even more and he'd still be really good, just look at Diddy Kong and Sheik: They got nerfed a lot and both are arguably still top 5, probably even top 3.

Edit: This thread is probably not the right place to discuss wishes for balance changes. It is highly unlikely that those in charge of balancing the game read this thread, so there's not much to be won by discussing it here. It's especially problematic since it makes the thread go off-topic, and we end up discussing the actual game less and the possible game more. There are other threads where we can do that. I apologize for contributing to the thread temporarily going off-topic.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

Nerf all top 7-8 characters maybe? It's not like they have to be significant nerfs, but they could tone them down a bit. Also buff low-tiers and low-mid tiers (and probably mid tiers as well).

Cloud would still be a very strong character even if his down-air lasted, say, 2 frames shorter, or if his limit break took 2-3 seconds longer to charge. They could probably nerf him even more and he'd still be really good, just look at Diddy Kong and Sheik: They got nerfed a lot and both are arguably still top 5, probably even top 3.

I see your point, and I even sort of halfway agree on a couple, but I approach the situation differently:

1. Different characters are different. Characters like Diddy and Sheik are relatively safe to nerf because of how diverse their toolkits are. Nerfing more straightforward characters like Cloud could easily become far more detrimental than intended. I wouldn't be against slightly increasing the end lag of Fsmash or LBCS, but increasing limit charge by two whole seconds is massive. Let's not forget how integral having full charge is to him having half-decent recovery.
2. More importantly: Lower tiers should be buffed before higher tiers get nerfed. Reorganizing the order of the top ten won't be all that important if the remaining 80% of the cast are still rubbish.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

uhhh if you AA near the ledge it kills significantly earlier (like, almost 20% earlier). If Doc USmash hits you and he's facing away from the ledge and he's near it, you just die. Period.

It depends on stage position but the move is either roughly on par in terms of kill power (maybe slightly worse if you're at a REALLY bad position but the KBG of 117 really helps this move scale with Rage). There's also no real optimal DI for it which makes it really stupid on small blastzone stages like Smashville and T&C. If we're talking center stage the average is 115-120% with absolutely no Rage but it gets significantly better based on position and Rage (ofc)

Wrong. Maybe you just haven't played anyone who knows how to DI. Dr. Mario usmash falls into the same category as moves like Charizard uthrow where basic DI GUTS the moves KO potential because of this:

And yes, this is why moves with a ~70° angle like Charizard's uthrow get gutted so badly by down-diagonal DI, since it's both optimal DI and reduces knockback on top of that.

 

[Zelder]

The year is distant star date 2017. Sakurai, in a huge security blunder, accidentally creates a Smashboards account. After perusing the forums, he lands in the Wii U/3DS Competitive Discussion subforum. On a whim, he clicks the first thread that catches his eye. He reads, and absorbs the discussion. He calls up his development team, and begins to work...

~~~~~~~~~

The game's meta is in a new place. Mario's upsmash has a 50 percent chance of breaking his neck, ending his stock. Cloud's limit gauge has been replaced with a new mechanic, a "limited" gauge - when it fills up completely, a mild electrical shock is sent through the controller, and into the player's hands. Diddy is completely removed from the game. Every top tier has finally been nerfed. The CCI posters got their wish, but at what cost?

~~~~~~~~~

The meta continues to grow. Roy is considered the best character in the game, despite having received no buffs since the massive nerf parade of late 2016. From the depths of CCI, a single post rings out.

"WHEN are we going to nerf Roy? The complete lack of lag after his neutral B is ridiculous, it's such a good baiting tool for his Fsmash."

And with that, the incredible cycle of violence begins anew...

 

[dakotaisgreat]

To clarify, the thing about nerfing Cloud was a joke, I had hoped that it would be more obvious.

I agree, buff lower tiers. Nobody in this game is OP anymore, the only thing that should be nerfed is janky stuff.

Also I have a question for those who have been around longer than me. Is it still reasonable at this point to hold an opinion that a character is really unexplored/low tier because of lack of representation? I've been waiting for people to realize Charizard is good for like a year now, but as time goes on and people continue to never do anything with him I'm getting more ready to accept that I might just be flat out wrong after all. Is it possible for a character to really be unexplored still at this state in the game?

The year is distant star date 2017. Sakurai, in a huge security blunder, accidentally creates a Smashboards account. After perusing the forums, he lands in the Wii U/3DS Competitive Discussion subforum. On a whim, he clicks the first thread that catches his eye. He reads, and absorbs the discussion. He calls up his development team, and begins to work...

~~~~~~~~~

The game's meta is in a new place. Mario's upsmash has a 50 percent chance of breaking his neck, ending his stock. Cloud's limit gauge has been replaced with a new mechanic, a "limited" gauge - when it fills up completely, a mild electrical shock is sent through the controller, and into the player's hands. Diddy is completely removed from the game. Every top tier has finally been nerfed. The CCI posters got their wish, but at what cost?

~~~~~~~~~

The meta continues to grow. Roy is considered the best character in the game, despite having received no buffs since the massive nerf parade of late 2016. From the depths of CCI, a single post rings out.

"WHEN are we going to nerf Roy? The complete lack of lag after his neutral B is ridiculous, it's such a good baiting tool for his Fsmash."

And with that, the incredible cycle of violence begins anew...

Sounds fun, when's someone going to make a mod where every character in the game is nerfed into the ground? You could actually call it Tr4sh.

Spoiler

I'd try to play it competitively.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I see your point, and I even sort of halfway agree on a couple, but I approach the situation differently:

1. Different characters are different. Characters like Diddy and Sheik are relatively safe to nerf because of how diverse their toolkits are. Nerfing more straightforward characters like Cloud could easily become far more detrimental than intended. I wouldn't be against slightly increasing the end lag of Fsmash or LBCS, but increasing limit charge by two whole seconds is massive. Let's not forget how integral having full charge is to him having half-decent recovery.
2. More importantly: Lower tiers should be buffed before higher tiers get nerfed. Reorganizing the order of the top ten won't be all that important if the remaining 80% of the cast are still rubbish.

1. True. I don't think they should overnerf Cloud (they shouldn't overnerf anyone, although I wouldn't mind it if they remade Sonic and made him more fun to play against), but I think there are ways they could nerf him without overdoing it. Adding a little end-lag to moves that hard to punish, reduce dair duration, maybe reduce limit side-B damage and/or KBG, maybe increase the time it takes to get limit, maybe do something about up-air, etc. Plenty of places where they could nerf him without making him bad, and they could buff him in some ways to compensate for some of the nerfs.
2. The thing is, in many cases you'd get better results from nerfing a few characters that are too strong rather than buffing weaker characters. Let's take Brawl for example. If given the choice between nerfing Meta Knight and Ice Climbers and buffing 5 low tier characters, I'd imagine going for the nerfs would make a lot more characters viable. Now, Cloud is not nearly as dominant as MK and IC were, but he (and the other top 5-7) still make life hard for many of the lower tiers.

So, yeah. Do both. Nerf top tiers and buff low tiers.

 

[PK Gaming]

I want to see more characters with lingering nairs(Fox players, Sheik players, Pikachus) nair Mario's up b for the free stock. I'm watching people let him back for free, which is foolish

Another important thing I'd like to make note of:
In my opinion, Marth players have the most developed edgeguarding of any character mains.

To be fair, his Up B starts up on frame 3 and is also invincible from that point until at least frame 6.

People aren't letting him come back for free; it's legitimately difficult to edgeguard him.

 

[soniczx123]

although I wouldn't mind it if they remade Sonic and made him more fun to play against)

How do you make someone fun to fight against? Are there any examples?? I believe all top tiers are a pain to fight against, Sonic just being one of them.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Wrong. Maybe you just haven't played anyone who knows how to DI. Dr. Mario usmash falls into the same category as moves like Charizard uthrow where basic DI GUTS the moves KO potential because of this:

All that notwithstanding I still find the move to be overall better though my margin is a lot more slim now (I did not know this, this game is strange). I tested this just now myself and it did indeed make the KO % a bit higher near the ledge, though not VASTLY higher.

What did make it vastly higher was my accidental Crouch cancelling during the DI testing (I suck don't hit me).

My only solace is that when Doc USmash is used as an anti air it's usually too fast to time perfect DI against, though I imagine it can happen sometimes. Still scales pretty good with Rage though, and has all the other benefits I listed at the very least.

Still, thank you for bringing this to my attention! I appreciate being corrected on stuff like this, don't wanna be the guy that spreads misinformation by accident.

 

[Zelder]

Also I have a question for those who have been around longer than me. Is it still reasonable at this point to hold an opinion that a character is really unexplored/low tier because of lack of representation? I've been waiting for people to realize Charizard is good for like a year now, but as time goes on and people continue to never do anything with him I'm getting more ready to accept that I might just be flat out wrong after all. Is it possible for a character to really be unexplored still at this state in the game?

With 58 characters in the game, most of them containing wildly unique mechanics, playstyles, etc., it's entirely possible that many characters are still unexplored. However, I wouldn't really bet on Charizard having a personal renaissance. In my mind, his major problems are that he's sluggish (a common problem of superheavies), he's big body combo food, and his disadvantage state isn't great. I mean, he has rock smash, but if the opponent predicts that you're going to do it (and let's be honest, you're going to do it eventually because what else are you going to do), it's incredibly laggy and puts you in a terrible place. I think there's a reason that no one picks up Charizard.

 

[Pazzo.]

Honestly, I don't expect anymore patches.

But with one unique character per competitor in EVO top 8, I'd be perfectly fine with that.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

1. True. I don't think they should overnerf Cloud (they shouldn't overnerf anyone, although I wouldn't mind it if they remade Sonic and made him more fun to play against), but I think there are ways they could nerf him without overdoing it. Adding a little end-lag to moves that hard to punish, reduce dair duration, maybe reduce limit side-B damage and/or KBG, maybe increase the time it takes to get limit, maybe do something about up-air, etc. Plenty of places where they could nerf him without making him bad, and they could buff him in some ways to compensate for some of the nerfs.
2. The thing is, in many cases you'd get better results from nerfing a few characters that are too strong rather than buffing weaker characters. Let's take Brawl for example. If given the choice between nerfing Meta Knight and Ice Climbers and buffing 5 low tier characters, I'd imagine going for the nerfs would make a lot more characters viable. Now, Cloud is not nearly as dominant as MK and IC were, but he (and the other top 5-7) still make life hard for many of the lower tiers.

So, yeah. Do both. Nerf top tiers and buff low tiers.

I'm against nerfing LBCS in any way save ending lag. Limit is such a valuable resource and takes so long to charge, in addition to being so important to reliably recovering; sacrificing all that for a kill move is only worthwhile if it's actually a good move.

 

[Frihetsanka]

How do you make someone fun to fight against? Are there any examples?? I believe all top tiers are a pain to fight against, Sonic just being one of them.

I personally find Sonic much more annoying to play against than, well, pretty much any character in the game (with customs off). Partly because his playstyle is so different from most characters, and he is just so fast... I'm not quite sure how to fix that issue. Dabuz placed Sonic at #5 so there's room for some nerfs, I suppose.

I'm nerfing LBCS in any way save ending lag. Limit is such a valuable resource and takes so long to charge, in addition to being so important to reliably recovering; sacrificing all that for a kill move is only worthwhile if it's actually a good move.

I suppose, though couldn't you make the same argument for Little Mac's KO punch? Yet that has significantly more endlag compared to Cloud's LBCS (although I suppose you could argue that Mac's KO Punch should get buffed).

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Honestly, I don't expect anymore patches.

But with one unique character per competitor in EVO top 8, I'd be perfectly fine with that.

More nerfs would be unhealthy at this point. After our collective tantrum over Bayonetta, it looks weird that we're still complaining about broken stuff.

 

[Frihetsanka]

More nerfs would be unhealthy at this point. After our collective tantrum over Bayonetta, it looks weird that we're still complaining about broken stuff.

"Overpowered" and "broken" are not the same thing. Bayonetta getting nerfed was good for the meta. Why would more nerfs be unhealthy?

Edit: With this being said, do Nintendo even read the forums? If they don't, then I don't know if there's much point in discussing nerfs and buffs. Perhaps we should move back to discussing the meta as it is, instead of discussing "x should get nerfed" or "y should get buffed"?

 

[JesseMcCloud]

I personally find Sonic much more annoying to play against than, well, pretty much any character in the game (with customs off). Partly because his playstyle is so different from most characters, and he is just so fast... I'm not quite sure how to fix that issue. Dabuz placed Sonic at #5 so there's room for some nerfs, I suppose.

I suppose, though couldn't you make the same argument for Little Mac's KO punch? Yet that has significantly more endlag compared to Cloud's LBCS (although I suppose you could argue that Mac's KO Punch should get buffed).

No, because Mac's KO Punch works independently from the rest of his moveset. If you could sacrifice it to improve his recovery, then you could make that argument.
I feel like most people don't understand how limit is both Cloud's greatest strength and his greatest weakness.

 

[soniczx123]

I personally find Sonic much more annoying to play against than, well, pretty much any character in the game (with customs off). Partly because his playstyle is so different from most characters, and he is just so fast... I'm not quite sure how to fix that issue. Dabuz placed Sonic at #5 so there's room for some nerfs, I suppose.

What is there to nerf with him, to be honest? He's fine the way he is.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I feel like most people don't understand how limit is both Cloud's greatest strength and his greatest weakness.

lmfao what am I reading

 

[GeneralLedge]

Sonic's issues are not really Sonic's issues, but player issues. Half reaction-time (or the lack thereof), and half misunderstanding how to fight him (or doing exactly what Sonic wants).

Ideal method of challenging a majority of (bad (annoying)) Sonics (at least from my experience* and thought-process) is to space yourself close enough to the ledge that, if Sonic is spamming spindash, you can shield it and punish him within the limited space between you and the ledge where Sonic is forced to turn around and is vulnerable. If Sonic jumps, now he's off the ledge.

Actually, in general keeping Sonic in the air mitigates his annoyance a lot, since Sonic-in-the-air is floaty and far easier to react to.


*I don't have nearly enough Sonic experience to dive into any extent of a 'professional' analysis, so take my word with a grain of salt

 

[Frihetsanka]

No, because Mac's KO Punch works independently from the rest of his moveset. If you could sacrifice it to improve his recovery, then you could make that argument.
I feel like most people don't understand how limit is both Cloud's greatest strength and his greatest weakness.

What is there to nerf with him, to be honest? He's fine the way he is.

If Mac could sacrifice his KO Punch to get a better recovery he'd be a much better character, especially if he could trade his normal neutral B for a "KO Punch charge".

As for Sonic, Dabuz put him in top 5, and I find it fairly likely that Sonic is around that level (5-7 or so). The game is fairly balanced (more balance than any Smash game has ever been*) but it still has many flaws. Other games get updates every 2 weeks, where characters get nerfed or buffed. I suppose we should be happy if we get updates every 2 months.

Anyway, since it's unlikely Nintendo won't read this thread I think we should drop the "x should get buffed" and "y should get nerfed" talk, at least in this thread. The fan patch thread would be a better place to discuss those things, I suppose. Unless we have reason to believe that the people in charge of patching read this thread, then we'd have good reason to discuss buffs and nerfs.

*Aside from 64 perhaps?

 

[FeelMeUp]

Can we make the words "buff" and "nerf" red topics?

 

[soniczx123]

If Mac could sacrifice his KO Punch to get a better recovery he'd be a much better character, especially if he could trade his normal neutral B for a "KO Punch charge".

As for Sonic, Dabuz put him in top 5, and I find it fairly likely that Sonic is around that level (5-7 or so). The game is fairly balanced (more balance than any Smash game has ever been*) but it still has many flaws. Other games get updates every 2 weeks, where characters get nerfed or buffed. I suppose we should be happy if we get updates every 2 months.

Anyway, since it's unlikely Nintendo won't read this thread I think we should drop the "x should get buffed" and "y should get nerfed" talk, at least in this thread. The fan patch thread would be a better place to discuss those things, I suppose. Unless we have reason to believe that the people in charge of patching read this thread, then we'd have good reason to discuss buffs and nerfs.

*Aside from 64 perhaps?

That didn't answer my question...

 

[Zelder]

If Mac could sacrifice his KO Punch to get a better recovery he'd be a much better character, especially if he could trade his normal neutral B for a "KO Punch charge".

As for Sonic, Dabuz put him in top 5, and I find it fairly likely that Sonic is around that level (5-7 or so). The game is fairly balanced (more balance than any Smash game has ever been*) but it still has many flaws. Other games get updates every 2 weeks, where characters get nerfed or buffed. I suppose we should be happy if we get updates every 2 months.

Anyway, since it's unlikely Nintendo won't read this thread I think we should drop the "x should get buffed" and "y should get nerfed" talk, at least in this thread. The fan patch thread would be a better place to discuss those things, I suppose. Unless we have reason to believe that the people in charge of patching read this thread, then we'd have good reason to discuss buffs and nerfs.

*Aside from 64 perhaps?

I'm beginning to think you didn't play MK X, because everyone absolutely hated this. Its hard to really develop a character's gameplan when everything is changing on a weekly basis.

 

[Frihetsanka]

That didn't answer my question...

Me attempting to answer your question would likely lead to you (or someone else) disagreeing and then arguing why I'm wrong. Then I'd be forced to either ignore that or answer that, thus leading to a discussion which will likely lead nowhere. I say we just agree to disagree on this matter and wait and see what they decide to do: Perhaps Sonic will get nerfed, perhaps he won't be.

I'm beginning to think you didn't play MK X, because everyone absolutely hated this. Its hard to really develop a character's gameplan when everything is changing on a weekly basis.

Nope, I haven't played Mortal Kombat X. I have played other games (non-fighters) with frequent patches though, and I believe that is preferable over not having patches at all. With that being said, I don't think Smash 4 should have biweekly patches. A few more patches and the game will be really balanced, if they keep making reasonable decisions. Anyway, I don't think there's much point in discussing this subject either, since we're not in charge of patching and it's unlikely that Nintendo (or whoever is in charge of patching) would listen to us.

So, let's get back to talking about, well, competitive impressions, shall we? How good do you guys think Mega Man is? Kamemushi did amazingly well with him, but it could be the player. Is Mega Man top 15 now? Have you heard of any US high/top players picking him up (aside from ScAtt)?

 

[Iron Kraken]

From the Smashboards article about ZeRo's recently visit to Japan:

Players such as @Raito, @KEPT, @Rain, @YOC, @ken, @Umeki, @Keron, and the player he said he had the most trouble with, @Kirihara. ZeRo tried to do as many first to 10s against Japan's best and Kirihara was the only one to take one from ZeRo. ZeRo lost 10-5 with Cloud against Kirihara's Rosalina, but ZeRo was able to take it back 10-8 with his Diddy Kong. ZeRo told me every single match was down to the last hit and it was one of the most difficult sets he has ever had to do.

Damn, Kirihara. Not everyone just takes 18 out of 33 games against ZeRo. This just solidifies the fact that Kirihara underperformed at EVO (where he was double eliminated by Hyuga, although in the second set he apparently SD'd in the final game when he was likely about to win) based on the talent all the top players who have played him say he has.

I really hope we get to see more of his Rosa in the future.

(Side note: yet another instance of a Rosa being a Cloud)

 

[Dark.Pch]

I made a vid on where I think Peach should be on the tier list and my reasons behind it. Now if you don't agree, that is fine. But don't come at me with pitch forks about it. This is my opinion and I explained my reasons for it. So for those that are interested:

 

[FamilyTeam]

I mean, good video, but,
the title itself says "1.1.3 patch", so hasn't the picture changed a lot since then?

 

[Dark.Pch]

I'm using the list made on the first page of this thread and going base on that. Other list made by players I won't use. I wanted to keep it official. And this is the latest official one for smashboards.

 

[C0rvus]

To be fair, none of the characters he compared to Peach have changed since then, iirc at least. Though I think I disagree about the function or purpose of tier lists; but that's not worth discussing. Raw character comparisons is an odd way of going about things imo. If anything, I think discussing matchup spread and results relative to the character's representation would make a stronger argument. For the record, Peach is a character I cannot say very much about, especially in terms of viability and relevance. I cannot say I know much more after that video, but I did not watch the whole thing.