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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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Shady Shaymin

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Does anyone else think maybe the best thing the developers could do for Roy at this point is just try to forget the whole swordie archetype and make him more like all the other rushdown characters? Shorten his range (particularly his sourspots), then compensate by giving his moves better frame data in general? I think that trade off would be fair and consistent with his design and he would generally just be a more functional character rather than a botched spacing/rushdown hybrid can't perform either playstyle well.
 

Shollyboster

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Does anyone else think maybe the best thing the developers could do for Roy at this point is just try to forget the whole swordie archetype and make him more like all the other rushdown characters? Shorten his range (particularly his sourspots), then compensate by giving his moves better frame data in general? I think that trade off would be fair and consistent with his design and he would generally just be a more functional character rather than a botched spacing/rushdown hybrid can't perform either playstyle well.
Maybe better frame data, and a higher second jump. Also, that counter is complete garbage with how long it takes in the air. You'd die by a simple misinput.

Edit: Perhaps they should stay with the whole sword archetype, but increase the range of his sweetspots, his sword by a little, and then increase hitstun for his souspots. Perhaps this would make them just a little more safe.
 
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LancerStaff

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You know



When people say they would not hesitate to nerf the top characters in the game and that power levels are meaningless, I just can't help, but think they simply don't understand how it effects the game on the other side of things besides balance. Yes, the game does get more balanced, but it also gets more limited. You start to restrict people on how they're able to play because top tiers generally have the most options to use in their arsenal. You'll begin to feel how weak the characters are based on how the characters interact with the the game mechanics (since those aren't getting adjusted in relation to the cast's capabilities). You can need the top characters and the next top characters all you want, but when you're not also tuning the game mechanics along with, you'll make the game far worse off. Ex. people will live over 200% and with how hard it is to kill in this game, that could make matches actually time out more. Instead of buffing the bottom 15 or 20 and making their capabilities far better and allowing them to do more stuff, we're taking down the trail blazers of the meta and making the meta lean on weaker characters with less able abilities and less options overall. Like, idk about you guys, but I'd rather see diddy vs mewtwo or sheik vs whoever than watch something GnW vs pac man where neither is unable to kill.
People said the same damn thing on 1.0 man, and the game still hasn't become a slow, janky Zelda-y mess. I don't mean to say that we should keep nerfing characters until GFs is DDD vs. Roy all the time, but we do have several characters that are just too strong by design that would immediately make more characters viable with them out of the way. Like the last major patch. Even if we took the top 29 and interlaced it with the bottom 29 we'd still be at Bowser and Robin level which is perfectly fine. When we have singular moves invalidating characters the game's power is objectively too high.

If you're going to argue options, then I don't see how having more characters with relevant tools means less options. Having even 1/5 of the characters being obviously above the rest is highly limiting to the other 4/5. If these weren't Nintendo characters they might as well not exist, because nobody would use them. If this were a single player game like Kingdom Hearts people would think you're crazy to say "all buffs, no nerfs." They'd quickly suggest the opposite because it's not a logistical nightmare. Remember what Thinkaman said about balanced Brawl? He said he wanted the overall power level much lower then it was. Remember how PM made a new monster every other week because they were basically balancing for Melee Fox? Yeah, that's all buffs no nerfs. A trainwreck.

The real problem with the balancing is that they're not willing to fundamentally change anything beyond a throw. Needles aren't good design, spindash isn't good design, Limit isn't good design on such a mobile character... So on and so fourth.
 

Nobie

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The way people talk about Roy's sourspots makes them sound like Mega Man pellets. Low damage, no combos, need to be spaced, etc.
 

Lorde

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Here's a fun Bayonetta rant for you gorls :^)

Bayonetta never has never been the best character in the game, and due to the nerfs, never will be. However, that's not to say that she wasn't one of the strongest characters, because that much is undeniable.

Her biggest claim to fame was being an extremely potent character who was easy to pick up and win with. Despite that, Sheik was absolutely a better character in 1.1.4, and I'd argue Diddy was also better than Bayo in both 1.1.4 and 1.1.5. Bayonetta saw so much usage because she was much easier to do well with than characters like Sheik who require much more effort and skill to play optimally. That's why largely irrelevant players such as Tyroy and 9B were suddenly able to make a huge splash on the scene. Bayonetta's situation was analogous to 1.0.0 Rosalina's. Rosalina was overtuned and everyone considered her the best character in the game. Everyone was playing her, and she was taking tournaments left and right (which didn't really happen with Bayo, but she did get tons of high placements in many tournaments). However, lurking in the shadows was pre-patch Diddy, whose potential was yet undiscovered, but still greater. Then people figured out what Diddy was capable of and Rosalina was figuratively thrown by the wayside due to her bad Diddy MU.

Pre-nerf Bayonetta also thrived off of the fact that she was so new. Had she been in the initial roster, she would have been figured out and the general playerbase would know how to combat her. Being released a year and a half after the game's launch meant Bayonetta could essentially get away with basically whatever she wanted because no one knew how to counter her (and this is still largely true today; most people still don't know how to effectively fight Bayonetta).

The instant stigma attached to Bayonetta and those who played her only compounded that fact. She was labeled as toxic and top players said she was ruining the game, so the masses ignored her and just waited for the nerfs. They didn't want to put in the work and learn how to beat her, so even when videos and guides were made by community leaders (ESAM showing that SDI can consistently escape Bayonetta's 0-deaths, Beefy Smash Doods creating a video on how to optimally DI and combat Bayonetta's set-ups, etc.), they were ignored in favor of crying about Bayonetta's "toxicity" and destruction of Smash Bros.

To get real here, Bayonetta mains were targeted and attacked by the general Smash community. Other playerbases have also experienced hatred and "discrimination" (Pre-patch Diddy players mostly, but Sheik mains have always gotten **** about playing a top tier), but it was never to the extent of what happened to Bayonetta mains. People would invade her subforum, create multiple threads, hijack threads, just to say that she's broken, she's ruining the game, all Bayonetta mains have no skill because they play a broken character, etc. It got to the point where any time Bayonetta was mentioned, you could be sure to expect multiple posts about how she should be nerfed to the ground/removed from the game, etc. That's coming from my experience here on SWF; I fear to think about what GameFaqs and Reddit was like regarding Bayonetta. Bayonetta mains still get hate (although not to the same degree), which just goes to show that the stigma still persists. Bayonetta was regarded as toxic, but the only toxicity was those who were so vehemently against her.

Also, Bayonetta did have losing MUs pre-patch. Diddy was definitely bad (it still is), and most of the projectile characters were not good for Bayo either. She doesn't really have a good answer to smart projectile usage. Heel Slide is too slow, predictable, and punishable. Bat Within is too laggy to use as an approach, Bullet Climax's angle means it misses on most characters, and Bullet Arts moves (such as dtilt and jab1) are not great for forcing approached due to their range forcing you to sit still and fire bullets at a range where most characters can punish you. Bayonetta could try to jump over the projectiles and try to punish with a dABK, but that's pretty predictable. Witch Time is possible, but you have to be really close to the opponent to slow them down. Powershielding obviously exists, but you're not going to be able to powershield all projectiles 100% of the time. But none of that ever came to fruition because no one understood that playing patient did not mean "wait for a while and then blindly dash at Bayonetta from across the stage, so she has all the time in the world to figure out how to punish you."

I'm not trying to down play the fact that Bayonetta's 0-deaths were stupid or that she was a strong character or her nerfs were undeserved, but she wasn't best in the game.

tl;dr Bayonetta has never been the best character and she was nerf-bombed because no one wanted to put in the work to learn how to fight her. Like, they only needed to nerf dABK and her 0-deaths would have been gone, but w/e ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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Emblem Lord

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All this bayo talk.

This is all you need to know about Bayo.

Bayo had a divekick that beat all other pokes/conversion type moves head on and converted to either death or hefty damage and stage control.

It was fast, with a huge hitbox and safe on block.

That is LITERALLY all you ****ing need to know about pre-patch Bayo.
 

Shollyboster

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Here's a fun Bayonetta rant for you gorls :^)
tl;dr Bayonetta has never been the best character and she was nerf-bombed because no one wanted to put in the work to learn how to fight her. Like, they only needed to nerf dABK and her 0-deaths would have been gone, but w/e ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I disagree with your "rant." Bayonetta was easily the best character because no other character had the extensive combos she had. Like you said, she was new and nobody knew the matchup. On the flip side, it is because she was new that nobody knew all of the combos she had. If she had never been patched, it is likely this metagame would be more and more focused on new and more effective combos that she had/has/could have. Bayonetta had the best potential of any character of the game, and nerfing her was a smart idea.

Part of me believes that Nintendo made her such a blatantly broken character because she was DLC and it was a good selling point. Not to be a conspiracy theorist, but it is possible that they already had 1.1.6 planned out in advance, just to release once the sales went down a certain threshold.

As I said earlier, I disagree with your argument. I still respect your opinion, and I hope you respect mine.

**** Bayonetta.
 

EternalFlare

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Anyone else think Ryu is highly overrated and probably not even top 10? Hear me out before you think this is an insane opinion.

His neutral leaves a lot to be desired. Only his uair and nair autocancel which lack the range to be really safe on block. A spaced fair on block is still usually punishable. A spaced bair on block can be safe sometimes but some characters can definitely still punish plus it's pretty obvious when he's going for fair/bair and they are so punishable on whiff.

Similarly his fireball seems decent at first until you realize the massive recovery time it has making it a pretty big commitment at mid range and he rarely gets much from it. On the ground it's basically a worse version of PK fire.

People tend to get scared and not punish these very punishable options because it's Ryu. Even in tournament play I've seen Ryu for instance do VERY punishable aerials on shield only for the opponent to roll away or sit in shield showing they didn't know the matchup. Giving the illusion that Ryu is way safer than he actually is.

His kill potential isn't as good as people think. For him to get TSRK confirms, the opponent has to make huge mistakes (basically do an unsafe move at point blank range so he can tilt confirm into it). Aside from that he has bair which will eventually start killing. But that's pretty much it. If you can avoid these two options and actually play defensive and campy, there's not much Ryu can do about it, he won't kill early at all. People rush at him blindly with really unsafe moves right next to him and then complain when they die at 70. Play the keep away game and I guarantee you Ryu becomes 10X easier to deal with.

Now let's talk about his disadvantageous state. He's a heavy and semi-fastfaller making him combo food. His focus attack won't work against multi-hit juggle moves so he basically has to commit to a focus dash in the air early in those matchups and hope you guess the direction wrong.

Also his recovery is pretty mediocre, it's basically a worse version of Diddy's recovery. You have ages to react to his side B, go offstage and hit him over and over. Similarly if he chooses to dip low and up B, any lingering hitbox will easily knock him away. Even if the opponent gets hit it's no big deal as the trade will just send them up and a sour spot SRK will never kill.

As the meta progresses I think more and more people are going to get better at exploiting Ryu's weaknesses, I don't think we will ever see Ryu consistently making top 8s at nationals (it hasn't happened at all yet anyway to my knowledge). He requires the opponent to be unnecessarily aggressive and unsafe to shine and once you don't give him that, you realize there's not much he can do.
 
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Emblem Lord

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This guy right here. ^^^^^^^

He is cool peoples. He is gonna go far in life.
 

Shollyboster

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Anyone else think Ryu is highly overrated and probably not even top 10? Hear me out before you think this is an insane opinion.
Now that you say it, I do agree with what you are saying. The reason why Ryu is so high on the tiers (LIKE YOU SAID) is because people don't know the matchup!
 

Emblem Lord

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Oh no they know they should run.

They just refuse to do it. Then they get bodied and cry for nerfs.

If you are too foolish and prideful to do what needs to be done to win a match imo you are a fool and a weakling and you deserve every loss that character hands to you.
 
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ItsRainingGravy

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To add to the list of Ryu woes, it is probably easy to counter-pick him stage wise. For example, he can't fullhop on Dream Land's lower platforms, and small/fast characters or good edgeguarders can likely do a number to him on Lylat. Battlefield, Duck Hunt, and FD all probably have their own characters that do better than Ryu on those stages as well depending on the MU.
 

Mr. Johan

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By all means, do say only Uair and Nair autocancel.

I'll be over here cringing at Bair's 6 frames of landing lag in the meantime.

A Ryu that slightly tilts the control stick forward as he SHFF Landing Bairs along the way is a Ryu you do not want to fight.
 
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NewZen

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Oh no they know they should run.

They just refuse to do it. Then they get bodied and cry for nerfs.

If you are too foolish and prideful to do what needs to be done to win a match imo you are a fool and a weakling and you deserve every loss that character hands to you.
This, in spades. We're not talking about the excuse of being an "Honorable player" (The only thing you need to do to be honorable is don't cheat-plug-pulling, using hacked controllers, etc.), we're talking about the environment of Play-to-Win. If you don't use every option, every tool, every little trick your character(s) has at their disposal and you lose, then by all means, you deserve that loss and have nobody to blame but yourself. This is coming from someone who used to be a scrub and abide by "House rules" that didn't mean bloody thing when I entered the tourney scene.
 

EternalFlare

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By all means, do say only Uair and Nair autocancel.

I'll be over here cringing at Bair's 6 frames of landing lag in the meantime.
One of the reasons why I said it's really his only safe poke/spaced aerial option.

But here's the problem. If Ryu is using this move to space it's not going to be fresh and thus won't kill the opponent.

And if he doesn't have this to kill and the opponent doesn't do point blank unsafe moves for TSRK confirms, Ryu will struggle at killing.
 

Mr. Johan

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Does it matter if its stale or not?

It keeps Ryu safe. That's what matters.

People talk about being patient against Ryu and don't commit to anything, but neglect to say that Ryu can do the exact same thing.
 

LancerStaff

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Oh no they know they should run.

They just refuse to do it. Then they get bodied and cry for nerfs.

If you are too foolish and prideful to do what needs to be done to win a match imo you are a fool and a weakling and you deserve every loss that character hands to you.
Are other fighting games this scrubby or is it just Smash? Because even before Smash 4 I've seen a ton of people with mentalities like this.

...Just a question guys.
 

Emblem Lord

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Oh Oh OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHH GUESS WHAT!!!!!



Happy Birthday to the figure head of fighting games

So lets talk about him. I will give my thoughts later.

But lemme throw this out there.

Ryu is not top tier

Thoughts and opinions. GO!!!!
 
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TTTTTsd

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Oh Oh OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHH GUESS WHAT!!!!!



Happy Birthday to the figure head of fighting games

So lets talk about him. I will give my thoughts later.

But lemme throw this out there.

Ryu is not top tier

Thoughts and opinions. GO!!!!
I've had my reservations and I think I'm inclined to agree. I don't think he's bad or unviable at all, I think he's right outside of Top Tier but the density and meaning of the word "Top Tier" now don't line up fully with everything Ryu has.

That being said, he's REALLY close to it and I honestly think he was in the Pre-Cloud meta, and if he was the last DLC char we got, he probably would still be top tier even with the balance changes to the current cast. Cloud and the others shook things up (Cloud is the only one that's held on and stayed as relevant as he has but his usage and results have waned significantly, the Uair nerf that I knew would do this ended up doing it, and I don't mind, I think it's good for the game)

My reasoning for Ryu being this way is mostly his disadvantage and the difficulty he can have with specific setups he needs to close stocks sometimes, but I think unlike a lot of other not top but close chars he can play off of his opponent's fear REALLY strongly. I also think that in spite of his low walk speed, he has really good walk accel and drift which helps mitigate its slowness a bit, and make it better than a lot of those with similar walkspeeds to him.

This post is kind of a mess but w/e, I ultimately agree but IDK if we feel the same way in terms of where he is, IDK if you think he's RIGHT outside of it like I do.
 
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ItsRainingGravy

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I still think that Ryu is a top tier character, but he is not Satsui No Hado tier like Sheikuma or M. Banana is.
 

EternalFlare

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Does it matter if its stale or not?

It keeps Ryu safe. That's what matters.

People talk about being patient against Ryu and don't commit to anything, but neglect to say that Ryu can do the exact same thing.
Well let's say Ryu hits with bair over and over. Now the opponent is at 100+.

Now what? Does he continue to just use bair and eventually kill the opponent at....like 180?. That doesn't sound like much of a powerhouse character everyone claims Ryu is. If you want to play that way, there's way better characters for the job.

And honestly, that might be Ryu's only option if the opponent truly decides they are not doing anything that could lead into a tilt-TSRK. Which isn't that hard, they just have to refrain from dash attacks and point blank unsafe moves. I'm stressing point blank because TSRK only kills early on the sweetspot which is right next to Ryu. If you get hit by an uptilt or downtilts while even slightly away from Ryu, you're in the clear, sour spot TSRK is not that strong.

Oh no they know they should run.

They just refuse to do it. Then they get bodied and cry for nerfs.

If you are too foolish and prideful to do what needs to be done to win a match imo you are a fool and a weakling and you deserve every loss that character hands to you.
Exactly.

Kind of reminds me of Fox/Falco players versus Jigglypuff or Peach in Melee. I've lost track of how many times they had huge leads, just needed to chill back and wait for Puff or Peach to come to them. But they went in super hard for no reason and then proceeded to get rested or gimped.
 
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Mr. Johan

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Well let's say Ryu hits with bair over and over. Now the opponent is at 100+.

Now what? Does he continue to just use bair and eventually kill the opponent at....like 180?.
Well, yeah. It's safe.

The more he Bairs and keeps himself safe, the more times people are going to try and get damage in to make up for the 15% this Frame 6 Landing Lag move does. And the closer he advances with light tilting SHFF Bair, the greater the chance they're going to try to escape to the other side, at which point you finish your 6 frame landing lag move into a Tilt confirm as they try to get away.

Ryus that make Bair the crux of their neutral will see their results skyrocket.
 
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EternalFlare

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Well, yeah. It's safe.

The more he Bairs and keeps himself safe, the more times people are going to try and get damage in to make up for the 15% this Frame 6 Landing Lag move does. And the closer he advances with light tilting SHFF Bair, the greater the chance they're going to try to escape to the other side, at which point you finish your 6 frame landing lag move into a Tilt confirm as they try to get away.

Ryus that make Bair the cruz of their neutral will see their results skyrocket.
The entire argument for Ryu being so strong is early kill power. If he's closing out stocks at 180 because the opponent refuses to put themselves in situations to get hit by his early kill power, there's nothing inherently special about Ryu anymore.

Sure you can hope for a roll in but what if the opponent never gives it to you? And if you constantly have to hope your opponent makes big mistakes to win that doesn't sound like a top tier character.

Also the bair bait to roll in up tilt TSRK confirm isn't as strong as you think. The opponent would not only have to roll in but at the worst time possible (just as the bair recovery time is ending). If they roll a bit earlier it won't work.

Edit:

If bair's landing lag is actually 12 frames then that's another damper on your proposed strategy.


Are other fighting games this scrubby or is it just Smash? Because even before Smash 4 I've seen a ton of people with mentalities like this.

...Just a question guys.
It's just Smash Bros. One reason is because the timer in a Smash "round" is so large making it more gruelling to watch. In traditional fighting games you only have to survive for 99 seconds but there's not much place to run away (you'll eventually get cornered and be forced to engage).

In Smash you have huge stage areas, multiple very strong defensive options when mixed up well and platforms all letting you run away easier which makes people respect the option less.
 
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Ninety

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Oh Oh OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHH GUESS WHAT!!!!!



Happy Birthday to the figure head of fighting games

So lets talk about him. I will give my thoughts later.

But lemme throw this out there.

Ryu is not top tier

Thoughts and opinions. GO!!!!
he lookin good for a 52 year old
 

Y2Kay

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Greninja's placement's in tier lists are just so unbelievably cringy, I just don't even bother look at them anymore.

Do I really need to explain why Greninja is better than Shulk and Palutena? Jesus . . .

:150:
 

Ethan7

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I'm starting to think all the top and high tiers are overated and all the low and bottom tiers are underrated.

Honestly, the gap isn't that big in this game and this constant "yes/no" proves it.
 

Illuminose

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In the same spirit as the poster who said this about Ryu (I agree btw, well said): :4zss: is not top 10 in the current metagame, and hasn't been since the patch.

ZSS has one of the most skilled player bases of any character. A top 10 player (Nairo), a top 15/20 player (Marss), a top 10 player's secondary (ANTi), and another top 50 player (NickRiddle) all use this character. The character has shown up good at many regional tournaments and smaller majors, but her supermajor performances of the summer have not been great. Now why is this?

:4diddy:

Zero Suit's matchup against Diddy Kong is incredibly limiting at top level now. There's been a couple close encounters (the WF set games 1/2 of Nairo vs ZeRo at LTC 4 and Nietono vs Marss going to game 5 at Apex), but in general ZSS has not won this matchup at top level in a long time. In the past few months alone, Nairo lost to Zinoto and has multiple losses to ZeRo, only once looking like he was really in a position to win a set only to get reverse 3-0'd with what seemed like relative ease. Marss has losses to Nietono, MVD, and dyr. I am in no way insinuating that these are 'bad' losses -- more that there's such a clear trend at this point that I have trouble saying this matchup is actually winnable at top level at this point in the metagame. When Diddy is top 3 in the game and is incredible common with many representatives who main him and some more who can pull him out as a secondary (ANTi and Rain are probably the most notable examples), this is extremely problematic. No other top character has a limiting matchup as ubiquitous and difficult to win as this. You may not have a top Diddy Kong at every regional or smaller major tournament, but this matchup is so common that it's incredibly hard to avoid in a tournament at the scale of CEO or EVO.

That doesn't even go into the tough time ZSS has against Sheik in the current patch. In general, ZSS's neutral has been broken down and understood to the point where the Diddy and Sheik matchups are heavily contingent on rage punishes from ZSS, which isn't really a reliable way to take on a matchup. ZSS doesn't even really do bad in many other matchups. She probably has slight losses to Cloud, Villager, Ryu, and Pikachu, but they aren't really limiting matchups. It's Diddy and Sheik, mainly Diddy, that really hold ZSS back at the moment and keep her from being solo viable at top level.

I feel pretty confident that Sheik, Diddy Kong, Cloud, Rosa, Sonic, Fox, Mario, Mewtwo, and perhaps Mega Man are the solo viable characters in the current metagame. Except for Sonic (whose results in Japan against many characters prove enough to me at this point), they've proven time and time again that they can reach top 8 at the biggest tournaments, that there isn't any matchup they can't reasonably play and win. There's a couple possible exceptions, but you can use these characters by themselves and win or place very high in international tournaments. This, imo, is the core 8/9 characters that consist top tier at this point in Smash 4. Then you have characters like Bayo, Ryu, Villager, ZSS, and maybe Marth/Pikachu that are kind of in this weird position where they're better than the other characters but don't have the tools to stand as consistently in matchups as the characters above them. Is there no room for characters like ZSS to grow and get better in these matchups that limit them? Of course not, but that's just how it is right now.
 

Frihetsanka

Smash Champion
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S tier: Nothing out of the ordinary.
A tier: Lucina? Her results are really lacking.
B tier: Peach at the top is pretty interesting. She actually does have a lot of results, yet not many other people would put her at top of high-mid. Olimar being in B is also interesting.
C tier: Shulk, Kirby, Falco, and Mr. Game & Watch being that high is interesting. Greninja and Yoshi not being B is also interesting.
D to F tier: Not much to say.

I assume Miis are Guest 1111.

Regarding Zero Suit Samus: I think she's near the end of top 10. She probably deserves to be a bit higher than Mega Man, Villager, Marth, and Bayonetta.
 

Iron Kraken

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 13, 2014
Messages
381
A tier: Lucina? Her results are really lacking.
Many people, myself included, simply refuse to separate Marth/Lucina and Pit/Dark Pit on a tier list, because the characters are completely interchangeable in the sense that if you can use one you can use the other.
 

dakotaisgreat

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MegaSkarner XLR
After browsing this thread daily for like 200 pages I really want to play against all the regulars. I know its off topic but it would be helpful to know who's ass and who isn't and also it would just be fun to play against the people who's opinions I've been reading for months now.

To say something pertinent, Roy's design isn't bad. I wish people wouldn't continuously say that. He's a numbers tweak away from being good, if his hits had more reward he could be significantly better. Honestly I think his sweet spotted hits should hit much harder, like Ryu's attacks. It makes no sense for his damage output to be equal to Marths, if not slightly worse, considering Marth's superior range and safety. I can see the balance team tried to be fair to Roy, because he is both heavier and significantly faster than Marth with a superior combo game, but obviously that has proven itself to not be enough. Add 2-3% to all of Roy's sweet spotted attacks and make Double Edge Dance do even a smidge more shield damage and that would go an insanely long way. One thing I love about Roy is his reliable ability to take stocks at 0% if you break a shield, which will pretty much never happen outside of For Glory, but sometimes we forget For Glory is 98% of the experience people will have with this game.

Also, are archetypes a meaningful system of classification in this game? By that I mean,

Zoners: Olimar, Duck Hunt, Megaman, Mii Gunner
Grapplers: Bowser, DK, also Olimar kind of, Ness
Jugglers: ZSS, Meta Knight, Fox
Balanced: Mario, Mewtwo

Those were just examples so don't think too much about them, but you see my point. I'm wondering if it would have any use at all coming up with an arbitrary list of archetypes and ranking characters within said archetypes. So instead of a tier list with the sole intention of ranking all the characters in general usefulness, a tier list ranking characters for how good they are at a specific playstyle.

Just spit balling here.
 

irokex13

Smash Apprentice
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Sep 29, 2014
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92
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Irokex21
Oh Oh OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHH GUESS WHAT!!!!!



Happy Birthday to the figure head of fighting games

So lets talk about him. I will give my thoughts later.

But lemme throw this out there.

Ryu is not top tier

Thoughts and opinions. GO!!!!
I hate fighting Ryu, but I don't think he's top 5. He does have very real counterplay to him that let a lot of characters deal with him, but his sheer reward and hitboxes makes me think he's in the top 10. But, when you look at the optimal, lame play that most top tiers can use against Ryu, he either slightly loses (Sheik, Diddy, Rosa, Cloud, Sonic) or goes even-ish (Mario, Mewtwo). I don't know how he does against ZSS and Bayonetta, but I'm pretty sure he beats Fox.

And I'll share an unpopular opinion as well.

I still think Bayonetta is top tier.
 

BSP

Smash Legend
Joined
May 23, 2009
Messages
10,246
Location
Louisiana
How do people feel about Dabuz putting :4pacman: as 3rd worst in the game? I didn't realize that lower portion was ordered until I watched his explanations. Last I remember, most people were thinking Pac-Man had too much going for him to end up any worse than mid tier, but I don't know if that's still the case. Looking at everything he's got and everything the opponent can do in response to what he's got, I just don't see what he has going for him to give him an edge. I don't know if I'd go as low as bottom 3, but I'm thinking bottom 15 right now.
 

Frihetsanka

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
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Many people, myself included, simply refuse to separate Marth/Lucina and Pit/Dark Pit on a tier list, because the characters are completely interchangeable in the sense that if you can use one you can use the other.
Yet Marth has tippers and can kill with f-tilt and f-air and Lucina can't (at reasonable percentages). Not to mention that Marth has great results and Lucina doesn't.
 

Iron Kraken

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 13, 2014
Messages
381
Yet Marth has tippers and can kill with f-tilt and f-air and Lucina can't (at reasonable percentages). Not to mention that Marth has great results and Lucina doesn't.
I'm not saying that Marth isn't better. But could Lucina theoretically be better in a particular match up? Theoretically, she could be. I'm not sure. But the point is that because the characters can be used interchangeably, a Marth/Lucina player should only use the one that's better in a match up. Perhaps that's Marth 100% of the time, perhaps not. It doesn't really matter to me.
 
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williamsga555

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 8, 2015
Messages
251
Location
Japan
Ryu is more terrifying than he is good.

He's a high tier, imo, but not top. However, every character in the cast must respect him.

Honestly he reminds me a bit of a more functional Kirby. Nobody wants to get close to either of them, both have lackluster approach (Kirby's being miles worse), and both get big damage off of conversions.

I mean, that's the furthest that comparison can go, but it's kinda there. Maybe if you squint at it a bit?
 
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