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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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EternalFlare

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I thought they started from sour fair, whatever though
What 0-deaths are you guys referring to?

All the ones I've seen in combo videos looked very character specific, relied on bad or no DI, and also looked like rage could mess them up. And these factors exist in real matches but not in training mode.

For instance footstool - soft nair locks with Ryu don't work if you have enough rage or they are past a certain percentage. Plus you kind of have to guess their DI after the footstool (no time to react). Very situational stuff.

Also I've heard those continuous nair combos don't actually work on any character with 3 frame nairs.

But please educate me if I'm wrong about any of this. I want Ryu to be great but in reality, I just don't think he is given his results or lack of + all this crazy tech hardly being practical in real matches.
 
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Emblem Lord

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Gheb been around for awhile. Yall should listen to him.

Then again I been around longer then him and you don't listen to me so **** it.
 

Dinoman96

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I know I'm beating a dead horse over here, but the thing that will forever legimitaly piss me off about Palutena isn't just her tilts or whatever, it's just the fact that all of her fun and useful moves all happen to be custom moves.

"See this side special that lets you dash across the screen, lending to some incredible recovery, approach, combo, mixup and even KO options? Oops sorry, it's a custom move."

"See this down special that increases your overall mobility by a crapload and also grants you some much needed kill confirms? Oops sorry, it's a custom move."

"See this up special which lets you glide around like a jet that also lets you attack out of it without there being much landing lag if you hit somebody right when you land, effectively giving you even more approach options? Ahuh, sorry, it's a custom move."

"LOL, have fun using a ****ty/boring counter, reflector and teleport :^)"

It's like Sakurai basically gimped her on purpose just to show off how custom moves could change a character, which backfired completely due to the fact that nobody uses them, especially since they're blacklisted completely (along with Miis) in With Anyone.

She obviously isn't unplayablely bad or bottom 5 or what have you but she in default play she's more underwhelming than she needed to be.
 
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TDK

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Any character capable of taking a set off of ZeRo (something that Diddy, the best character in the game, hasn't done yet) is automatically not a low tier.
 

Das Koopa

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Tournaments this weekend

To be documented:
-PPT Summer (Germany)
-Be Smash (Dominican Republic)
-2GGT: KTAR Saga (Southern California)
-Nexus (Nebraska, Midwest)

Too few entrants to be documented at this time:
-Emerald City 4 (Pacific Northwest)
-Orbit (Canada)
-Big Battlefield Glasgow (United Kingdom)

By the by, NorCal had a tourney recently that would've qualified for my list, but they got kicked from the venue for playing too late, so I won't be using it since there's no definitive top 8.
 

EternalFlare

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I disagree with the notion that a character can't be good if they only have a few good moves and/or have a lot of bad moves. It depends how good those few moves are.

If you took away Sonics tilts, jab, dash attack, fair, downSmash etc. he'd still be a very good character. Since these are situationally useful for sonic but he doesn't rely on any of them to win.

Palutena has an excellent recovery, an excellent set of aerials, a decent jab and a solid grab game. That's more than enough for a character to be solid. Let's not confuse boring or basic with bad because I think that's what people really mean when they insist a character with a one dimensional gameplan is bad.
 
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I'd rather listen to Dabuz's opinion on Palutena who he ranks as second on the "Gatekeeper to high tier" and there is a reason for that as he explained on stream.
 

Ropalme1914

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What 0-deaths are you guys referring to?

All the ones I've seen in combo videos looked very character specific, relied on bad or no DI, and also looked like rage could mess them up. And these factors exist in real matches but not in training mode.

For instance footstool - soft nair locks with Ryu don't work if you have enough rage or they are past a certain percentage. Plus you kind of have to guess their DI after the footstool (no time to react). Very situational stuff.

Also I've heard those continuous nair combos don't actually work on any character with 3 frame nairs.

But please educate me if I'm wrong about any of this. I want Ryu to be great but in reality, I just don't think he is given his results or lack of + all this crazy tech hardly being practical in real matches.
Most of them I'm getting from this video from Hooded, and like he said, most of them are true, but some were not tested enough. The most realistic for me (early Front Hit Fair to Nair footstool) Hooded said that it was true. About the Nair strings, he put an annotation in his combo tutorial video saying that Utilt>Nair is not true if the opponent DI in and use a frame 3 move, but he did not said anything about the Nair string, so I think it is true.
 

Krysco

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In regards to Lucina being beside Marth in the tier list, my experience with such things is limited to the previous installments of Smash but to my understanding, a tier placement is nothing more than ranking from most to least viable based off of matchups and whatever numbers and numbering system is used. :metaknight: having nothing below +1/ 55:45 and :ganondorf: having nothing above -1/ 45:55 makes sense in calling one the best and the other the worst.

With that in mind, is it a good idea to look at Lucina as 'just a slightly worse Marth' and put her directly below him regardless of where he goes and regardless of her results? I get that they're clones but they do have differences that could very well lead to them being separated by at least 1 character. Lucina cannot kill as early off raw hits, lacks the same combos Marth has (but in return has ones that he lacks including the previously mentioned nair to killing fsmash) and she has a marginally smaller hurtbox and marginally less vertical range.They have the same mobility, frame data, weight and horizontal range.

Like, I remember a while back, the 3 best Marth mains all had posted their beliefs on Marth's mu spread around the same time. Assuming they know every nuance about Lucina, is it possible to see what they believe her mu spread is in comparison? Could see about contacting C-lu and whoever else is notable that has a Lucina they pull out (I recall one being mentioned I believe during EVO since this thread was just talking about her and she made an appearance). If Marth has only 1 or 2 mus better than Lucina then putting them beside each other makes sense but if Marth handles most mus better than her, especially the ones that matter like :4diddy::4sheik::rosalina: then I can see her being below Marth and a few other characters. Having them separated by a large gap like 10 characters is highly unlikely though.
 

EternalFlare

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Most of them I'm getting from this video from Hooded, and like he said, most of them are true, but some were not tested enough. The most realistic for me (early Front Hit Fair to Nair footstool) Hooded said that it was true. About the Nair strings, he put an annotation in his combo tutorial video saying that Utilt>Nair is not true if the opponent DI in and use a frame 3 move, but he did not said anything about the Nair string, so I think it is true.
I've seen that video. These look very character specific, I don't think he just randomly chose those characters to do it on but I could be wrong. Also there's no telling if away DI messes these up.

I agree nair - footstool looks legit if it works on everyone. But I have a feeling it doesn't as we never see Ryus going for it in real matches. Mostly you just see nair to nair,fair or dair.
 
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BunbUn129

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She needs fast close range options. Bair and DA won't be able to safe her *** forever.



I'm not saying that she's a bad character because she has bad tilts.
I'm saying she's a bad character who has bad tilts.

And bad smash attacks for that matter. And a jab that fails to fill a hole in her moveset. Her 1111 specials are also mostly useless.

Character's baaaaaaaaaaad. Low-mid at the absolute best.

:059:
Please elaborate. I'm not buying your argument when you're presenting overly vague points. Why not give us her MU's? I thought you're one of the users who keeps up closely with results, no? Instead of waiting to be proven right, why not prove the other view wrong yourself?

If Palutena isn't bad because she has bad tilts or smashes, or bad moves in general, then why is she? You can't just waltz on in with an unusual opinion and not give detailed reasoning. I'm not disagreeing with you because you're wrong, but because you're not providing a very convincing argument.

I don't believe she's a good character either. But "low-mid at absolute best" is pushing it a little. Not with fairly good mobility, a decent combo game, and strong aerial game, which in my view is enough to deny her being a low-tier.

Not to sound rude or anything, but I come to this thread to learn more about the game and saying "this char is bad bad bad" without giving much insight into why is not conductive to discussion.
 
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Strong-Arm

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Its common for people to label characters as bad despite them actually not being as bad as people make them out to be *COUGH* Lucina, Doc, Palutena, DHD, etc *COUGH*

Palutena is a solid mid tier imo and I dont see how people can seriously place her around the likes of Puff/Ganon/Zard and be ok with that
 

Ffamran

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It's like Sakurai basically gimped her on purpose just to show off how custom moves could change a character, which backfired completely due to the fact that nobody uses them, especially since they're blacklisted completely (along with Miis) in With Anyone.
It also backfired because some of the customs were either pointless making them wastes of opportunities to do something amazing. For example, 2, 4 if you count his default Blaster, of his customs are inferior to Fox's default Specials; Falco's Blaster's arguably not as useful as Fox's Impact Blaster, Falco's Burst Blaster used to have slightly lower recovery as an edge over Fox's Blaster, but that died in 1.1.0, so it's got the same startup, same recovery, same rate of fire, but lower overall damage, shorter range, and possibly smaller hitboxes; and both Fire Bird and Distant Fire Bird are inferior to Fire Fox and Twisting Fox. Add in Falco Charge being useless and Accele-Reflector's advantage, doubling reflected projectiles' speeds, being outweighed by its disadvantages: slightly higher startup, lower damage making it unsafe as a hit, less active reflect frames, and higher recovery, and Falco basically has 6 overshadowed and useless Specials. The only good ones are Fast Fire Bird and Reflector Void, Falco Phase would be a purely good recovery move since it's basically an invincible dash, and Explosive Blaster's at least interesting. It might seem like I'm just using this to complain about Falco -- Haha! Caught me red-handed! --, but there are other characters with underwhelming Specials like Jigglypuff? For me, customs in general are all underwhelming since only Mega Man, the Mii Fighters, and Palutena actually got legitimate customs that were different moves. Everyone else? Property changes. Some of which made things worse or were out of control. Some of them were even like, "Why wasn't this move default in the first place?" e.g. Ganondorf's Dark Fists.

There's also a missed chance of giving at least Ryu customs. Seriously, rip off Akuma, Ken, Gouken, and even Sagat's specials. Some of them are just property changes like a Ken Shoryuken only really needs to multi-hit with fire effects. Nope, that didn't happen. Even Lucas could have had Ness's customs just 'cause. But hey, customs talk seems to be directed to another thread...
 

FamilyTeam

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So, we ended up having another brief discussion about Marth vs. Lucina?...
sigh
I'll try to ready up a post about my opinion on the matter someday...
 

Emblem Lord

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I've seen that video. These look very character specific, I don't think he just randomly chose those characters to do it on but I could be wrong. Also there's no telling if away DI messes these up.

I agree nair - footstool looks legit if it works on everyone. But I have a feeling it doesn't as we never see Ryus going for it in real matches. Mostly you just see nair to nair,fair or dair.
Its just plain hard to hit.

How often do you land a level 2 or 3 focus on a competent opponent? Back hit fair is more realistic but many times when I personally hit it, my opponent is in kill percent already so I just sh shoryu and end it.

Anyway this combo **** is a distraction and i been saying that since day one.

Biggest problem this foolish community has always had. Grinding combos and tech before even knowing what buttons to press in neutral.

Trying to build a castle and you have no foundation.

It is ridiculous and doomed to fail.

Ryu's neutral has yet to be fully pinned down. Situational death combos can and should wait.
 
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Nidtendofreak

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Any character capable of taking a set off of ZeRo (something that Diddy, the best character in the game, hasn't done yet) is automatically not a low tier.
That is horrible logic.

"If somebody pulls out a character that the best player in the game isn't used to, while being the best with that character and knowing their side of the MU really well and manages to pull off a win against said top player while its known that he's lost at least a bit of his edge from before, the character isn't low tier"

What a joke. A character beating a player is irrelevant to their tier standing. 100% irrelevant. Zero impact. Why on earth would you bother to learn a MU where... 2, 3 people out of 100s of high level players use that character if they aren't in your region. Heck you don't even have the option to try to learn it because well... 2 people and they ain't in your area. Meanwhile those 2 people have to play against the top characters constantly and will know the MU inside and out.

Palutena is not a good character. She has 2 good moves, a couple of okay moves, and then trash and is trying to rely on just those handful of options. Limited options = bad. All she has proven is that she isn't bottom 5 because she can actually string those moves together into wins against people who don't know how to play against her.

You'd think people would have learned this after the whole Dr.Mario thing. Or are we still claiming he's mid tier because he took out one of the best players in the game?
 

EternalFlare

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Its just plain hard to hit.

How often do you land a level 2 or 3 focus on a competent opponent? Back hit fair is more realistic but many times when I personally hit it, my opponent is in kill percent already so I just sh shoryu and end it.

Anyway this combo **** is a distraction and i been saying that since day one.

Biggest problem this foolish community has always had. Grinding combos and tech before even knowing what buttons to press in neutral.

Trying to build a castle and you have no foundation.

It is ridiculous and doomed to fail.

Ryu's neutral has yet to be fully pinned down. Situational death combos can and should wait.
I wholeheartedly agree with you, but regardless if these extended combos are legit, we should be seeing some examples of them in high level matches.

Landing back hit fair or Level 2 focus in neutral is tough but a stray rising nair in neutral is certainly more realistic.

And if Ryu can really confirm a random full hop or sometimes short hop nair into a footstool reset how come we never see it?
 
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ItsRainingGravy

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Can we like, not, with the Larry posts? It is entirely not necessary and doesn't accomplish anything worthwhile. Thanks.

ANYWHO~

LOOK UP IN THE SKY! IT'S A BIRD, IT'S A PLANE, IT'S...A DISTRACTION!




Original MU Chart + Other Stuff

Blue = Advantage
Green = Even OR Slight Advantage
Yellow = Mostly Even
Orange = Even OR Slight Disadvantage
Red = Disadvantage

Sorry if it looks a little disorganized. I got a bit lazy, lol

As mentioned earlier, this includes opinions that I have gathered (indirectly) from Dabuz, Zinoto, Pugwest, and more.

Couple of interesting notes that I can gather from this:


- Dat Sheik doe.

- The great thing about Diddy is that the characters he is weak to are on the rarer side (Rosalina and Mega Man). Likewise, Sheik is in a similar boat, only being weak to Mewtwo. Because of this character rarity, this helps attribute to their own individual successes. Both Sheik and Diddy are quite popular at the top level, too.

- Cloud is the only other character at the top with a single truly disadvantageous matchup, besides Sheik (and is Sheik coincidentally). Unlike Sheik though, he doesn't really dominate in some top tier matchups like she does. Despite this, a lot of yellow matchups have been claimed to be in his favor. And while most people would hate to fight Rosalina and Sonic, Cloud is a rare character that wouldn't really mind fighting either of them.

- Either I am crazy, or Mewtwo has a pretty awesome MU spread. Despite this, his disadvantageous MU against Diddy will likely hold him back, especially due to how popular Diddy is at tournaments. On the other hand, his ability to keep Sheik, Rosalina, and Mario in check in particular is certainly a huge boon to him.

- Rosalina counterplay seems to be developing to some degree, which may hinder her a bit in the future. Regardless, she is still a great character, and her ability to counter popular choices like Diddy, Fox, and Mario will ensure that she will never be kicked out of the top ranks.

- Sonic is one of the two characters on this list who isn't really disadvantaged against Sheik, Diddy, or Mewtwo. So if you would consider those "The Top Three", then that means that Sonic is in a pretty good spot. If that's not enough, he has an edge over his old rival Mario, too. He really doesn't like Fox McClouds, though (-1 originality points). If not those two, disjointers do well against him...usually. He does seem to do well against Marth, though.

- Ryu probably has one of the more balanced MU spreads among the top characters. As a result, I don't have much to say about him, other than that I want to see more of him. He should probably put some shoes on though, since it gives him an innate weakness to bananigans.

- Thank goodness that Sakurai gave Fox (and Falco) the ability to recover after his Side B in this game. Otherwise, I imagine that his MU spread would be a lot worse than it is right now. I could see most of these characters bodying him if that was the case.

- ZSS has it pretty hard. She is still a great character, but she really suffers in that she loses to a good amount of the popular choices (Sheik, Diddy, Fox). It also doesn't help that her advantageous matchups are on the rarer side (Mewtwo, Rosalina, Sonic). She does beat the ever popular Mario, but it's probably not enough to help all of her woes. This, in top of her recent nerfs, is why I feel as though she has had a bit of a falling out as of late. On the bright side, you see a lot more Rosalina/Sonic players at high level tournaments, which means that she will still be pretty relevant regardless. Mewtwo still seems pretty rare, but that may change in the future.

- Mario is weird. A lot of characters say that they have an advantage over him. And yet he somehow overcomes these obstacles. A big part of this confusion are behind his yellow matchups, I believe. While Cloud, Ryu, and Fox have yellow MUs, most people feel as though that those characters slightly win over Mario. Conversely, while Sheik and Diddy have yellow matchups, most people feel as though that Mario wins those matchups (which REALLY helps Mario if that is the case). Another interesting thing about him is that, besides Sheik, he is the only other character that has significant advantages over two characters (Mega Man and Pikachu). Unlike Sheik or Diddy though, neither of these characters are as popular as Fox or ZSS at higher levels. I also find it weird how people keep saying that a character has to be within the "Top 5" in order to win a National. In Smash 4, it wouldn't really surprise me if anyone in the Top 15-20 wins a National. It's not really that big of a deal, IMO. Now, if someone outside of that bubble...say, Roy, for example, THEN people can start freaking out. In any case, Ally and ANTi are amazing players, and he never would've gotten as far as he did without them. This goes for all players at a top level. Instead of complaining, you should thank them for the amazing games that they have played for the entertainment that you have gotten out of watching them. That seems like a much better use of time, in my opinion. But I digress.

- One thing to note about Pikachu is that he's not nearly as bad as people claim to be, but he's not as good as ESAM claims to be, either (nothing against him though). Both ESAM and Dabuz seem to agree that he has an advantageous matchup against Rosalina, so that is something at least. Other than that, his MU's seem pretty average all-around. That is, until you count Mario. Mario's popularity and Pikachu's super-rarity are major reasons why you don't see this character do better. Which is unfortunate, because he doesn't seem to lose to Sheik/Diddy/Mewtwo (just like Sonic). And like Cloud, he just seems to do well in most top tier MU's that he is in. The major exception being Mario.

- Mega Man's main purpose is to serve as a counterpick character, particularly against Diddy and Cloud (despite having an even-ish MU with Cloud). He can also deal with Sonic and Ryu, too. Besides that, he has the roughest MU spread on this chart, losing badly to both Sheik and Mario. Fox, Rosalina, Mewtwo, and even Pikachu all give him trouble, as well. His status as a super-rare character probably helps a lot though, since his ability to shift the game's pace to his own is unusual to deal with if you don't know the matchup too well. But the high degree of skill it takes to master this character will probably ensure that he doesn't get too far in tournaments, unless a genius like Kamemushi plays him. Truly an underdog character, but that's what makes him so popular with viewers, too. Other than Ranai's villager, Kamemushi's Mega Man was the character that people were the most hyped about at EVO, and was probably the most hyped character overall. It sucks that he lost EVO, since I imagine that people would STILL be going crazy right now if he had won. And that is saying a lot, since Mega Man isn't even anywhere near the Bottom 20 characters on the roster.

- Marth's sole mission seems to be slaying citizens of the Mushroom Kingdom. I'm pretty sure that he has positive matchups against like...all of them? In any case, his power has picked up in spades after the generous buffs from last patch (and other patches before it). Maybe not as much as Mewtwo, but it is enough to put him on people's radars again. He's certainly a contender now, but I wouldn't be too worried, as there are a fair amount of checks to him. His MU spread seems a lot like "Cloud Light", honestly. Though he trades a better Mario matchup for a worse Sonic matchup...and Diddy, and ZSS. Bummer. It doesn't matter too much though, as both Marth and Cloud play quite differently from one another, and that is something that is more important for players to consider when picking up a character. Their Up B's are still pretty meh, though. But unlike Fox, they don't get punished as hard for using it.

- Meta Knight seems to have a Rayquaza/Deoxys relationship with Rosalina. Against most characters, he is pretty chill with them. Even going as far as letting them beat him, probably as a knightly code of honor or something. But the moment that Rosalina steps into the room, he throws his chivalry aside, and goes on a bloodthirsty rampage against the cosmic queen. Sword swings and pieces of Luma start flying everywhere, as demonic laughs can be heard beneath that sinister mask of his. And after banishing her to the shadow realm with his Galaca Darkness, he goes back to being a flying hacky sack for cats, monkies, ninjas, and plumbers. He also doesn't like Sonic, because he spins better than he does.


ONE FINAL NOTE: Although I feel as though this chart holds some degree of accuracy, in NO way I am saying that it is all true. Especially for the Green/Orange matchups, which can be more volatile than others. A good portion of them should be correct though. Lastly, while most of these are "top characters", that doesn't necessarily mean that they all are. Or, they could be. Up to you to decide, really. In any case, this is what I have for now.

Anywho, have fun tearing this up! :D

I'll make notes of what people have to say about the matchups/feel free to criticize. I made it for that reason/for clarity and discussion's sake~
 
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FamilyTeam

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Hmm, Mewtwo has "slight advantage" over Mario? I never felt that way.
I think all of the orange buttons could easily be yellow for Mario except Marth's, which definitely is orange, in my opinion.
 

Emblem Lord

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I wholeheartedly agree with you, but regardless if these extended combos are legit, we should be seeing some examples of them in high level matches.

Landing back hit fair or Level 2 focus in neutral is tough but a stray rising nair in neutral is certainly more realistic.

And if Ryu can really confirm a random full hop or sometimes short hop nair into a footstool reset how come we never see it?
I think the full jump nair into footstool stuff is unreliable and very DI dependent.
 

xEnvoy of Chaos

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So it's begun, the fall of Ness down the tier list from a high tier character to more of a mid tier character. If I recall correctly he's dropped on all tier lists in previous smash games as the meta developed.
 

xEnvoy of Chaos

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If they would do something to help him recover like making the thunder ball invulnerable for 60 frames or something I think he wouldn't have such awful recovery issues. It's bad enough Rosalina's down B exists.
 
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Murlough

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A question I've always wanted to ask: why is Lucas considered worse than Ness?

It may just be bias since my local has a really good Lucas that tends to beat everyone but its still baffling.

Lucas has a fantastic combo game, defensive game, his recovery is straight up better than Ness's. The only thing I can think of that Lucas wants from Ness is his back throw. Other than that he just seems better.

EDIT: He MAY even want the tip of Ness's PK thunder to harass opponents from a distance. However, Lucas has a much better edge guarding game than Ness. He can go much deeper than Ness with his superior recovery.
 
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Mr. Johan

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If PKT was unaffected by attacks and such, then its knockback would be heavily reduced, most likely. It's supposed to invoke an extreme case of risk vs. reward. Do you manage to clip the ball or Ness before he can get going, or do you miss and get slammed with the force of 100 supernovas for doing so?
 
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outfoxd

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A question I've always wanted to ask: why is Lucas considered worse than Ness?

It may just be bias since my local has a really good Lucas that tends to beat everyone but its still baffling.

Lucas has a fantastic combo game, defensive game, his recovery is straight up better than Ness's. The only thing I can think of that Lucas wants from Ness is his back throw. Other than that he just seems better.

EDIT: He MAY even want the tip of Ness's PK thunder to harass opponents from a distance. However, Lucas has a much better edge guarding game than Ness. He can go much deeper than Ness with his superior recovery.
It's something I've wondered myself. Is Ness brute force and hit boxes that overwhelming? I've been watching Lucases in my own scene grow and some of the crap they can do scares me. And they seem to keep rising. Also they're flashy as all heck.
 

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Can we like, not, with the Larry posts? It is entirely not necessary and doesn't accomplish anything worthwhile. Thanks.

ANYWHO~

LOOK UP IN THE SKY! IT'S A BIRD, IT'S A PLANE, IT'S...A DISTRACTION!




Original MU Chart + Other Stuff

Blue = Advantage
Green = Even OR Slight Advantage
Yellow = Mostly Even
Orange = Even OR Slight Disadvantage
Red = Disadvantage

Sorry if it looks a little disorganized. I got a bit lazy, lol

As mentioned earlier, this includes opinions that I have gathered (indirectly) from Dabuz, Zinoto, Pugwest, and more.

Couple of interesting notes that I can gather from this:


- Dat Sheik doe.

- The great thing about Diddy is that the characters he is weak to are on the rarer side (Rosalina and Mega Man). Likewise, Sheik is in a similar boat, only being weak to Mewtwo. Because of this character rarity, this helps attribute to their own individual successes. Both Sheik and Diddy are quite popular at the top level, too.

- Cloud is the only other character at the top with a single truly disadvantageous matchup, besides Sheik (and is Sheik coincidentally). Unlike Sheik though, he doesn't really dominate in some top tier matchups like she does. Despite this, a lot of yellow matchups have been claimed to be in his favor. And while most people would hate to fight Rosalina and Sonic, Cloud is a rare character that wouldn't really mind fighting either of them.

- Either I am crazy, or Mewtwo has a pretty awesome MU spread. Despite this, his disadvantageous MU against Diddy will likely hold him back, especially due to how popular Diddy is at tournaments. On the other hand, his ability to keep Sheik, Rosalina, and Mario in check in particular is certainly a huge boon to him.

- Rosalina counterplay seems to be developing to some degree, which may hinder her a bit in the future. Regardless, she is still a great character, and her ability to counter popular choices like Diddy, Fox, and Mario will ensure that she will never be kicked out of the top ranks.

- Sonic is one of the two characters on this list who isn't really disadvantaged against Sheik, Diddy, or Mewtwo. So if you would consider those "The Top Three", then that means that Sonic is in a pretty good spot. If that's not enough, he has an edge over his old rival Mario, too. He really doesn't like Fox McClouds, though (-1 originality points). If not those two, disjointers do well against him...usually. He does seem to do well against Marth, though.

- Ryu probably has one of the more balanced MU spreads among the top characters. As a result, I don't have much to say about him, other than that I want to see more of him. He should probably put some shoes on though, since it gives him an innate weakness to bananigans.

- Thank goodness that Sakurai gave Fox (and Falco) the ability to recover after his Side B in this game. Otherwise, I imagine that his MU spread would be a lot worse than it is right now. I could see most of these characters bodying him if that was the case.

- ZSS has it pretty hard. She is still a great character, but she really suffers in that she loses to a good amount of the popular choices (Sheik, Diddy, Fox). It also doesn't help that her advantageous matchups are on the rarer side (Mewtwo, Rosalina, Sonic). She does beat the ever popular Mario, but it's probably not enough to help all of her woes. This, in top of her recent nerfs, is why I feel as though she has had a bit of a falling out as of late. On the bright side, you see a lot more Rosalina/Sonic players at high level tournaments, which means that she will still be pretty relevant regardless. Mewtwo still seems pretty rare, but that may change in the future.

- Mario is weird. A lot of characters say that they have an advantage over him. And yet he somehow overcomes these obstacles. A big part of this confusion are behind his yellow matchups, I believe. While Cloud, Ryu, and Fox have yellow MUs, most people feel as though that those characters slightly win over Mario. Conversely, while Sheik and Diddy have yellow matchups, most people feel as though that Mario wins those matchups (which REALLY helps Mario if that is the case). Another interesting thing about him is that, besides Sheik, he is the only other character that has significant advantages over two characters (Mega Man and Pikachu). Unlike Sheik or Diddy though, neither of these characters are as popular as Fox or ZSS at higher levels. I also find it weird how people keep saying that a character has to be within the "Top 5" in order to win a National. In Smash 4, it wouldn't really surprise me if anyone in the Top 15-20 wins a National. It's not really that big of a deal, IMO. Now, if someone outside of that bubble...say, Roy, for example, THEN people can start freaking out. In any case, Ally and ANTi are amazing players, and he never would've gotten as far as he did without them. This goes for all players at a top level. Instead of complaining, you should thank them for the amazing games that they have played for the entertainment that you have gotten out of watching them. That seems like a much better use of time, in my opinion. But I digress.

- One thing to note about Pikachu is that he's not nearly as bad as people claim to be, but he's not as good as ESAM claims to be, either (nothing against him though). Both ESAM and Dabuz seem to agree that he has an advantageous matchup against Rosalina, so that is something at least. Other than that, his MU's seem pretty average all-around. That is, until you count Mario. Mario's popularity and Pikachu's super-rarity are major reasons why you don't see this character do better. Which is unfortunate, because he doesn't seem to lose to Sheik/Diddy/Mewtwo (just like Sonic). And like Cloud, he just seems to do well in most top tier MU's that he is in. The major exception being Mario.

- Mega Man's main purpose is to serve as a counterpick character, particularly against Diddy and Cloud (despite having an even-ish MU with Cloud). He can also deal with Sonic and Ryu, too. Besides that, he has the roughest MU spread on this chart, losing badly to both Sheik and Mario. Fox, Rosalina, Mewtwo, and even Pikachu all give him trouble, as well. His status as a super-rare character probably helps a lot though, since his ability to shift the game's pace to his own is unusual to deal with if you don't know the matchup too well. But the high degree of skill it takes to master this character will probably ensure that he doesn't get too far in tournaments, unless a genius like Kamemushi plays him. Truly an underdog character, but that's what makes him so popular with viewers, too. Other than Ranai's villager, Kamemushi's Mega Man was the character that people were the most hyped about at EVO, and was probably the most hyped character overall. It sucks that he lost EVO, since I imagine that people would STILL be going crazy right now if he had won. And that is saying a lot, since Mega Man isn't even anywhere near the Bottom 20 characters on the roster.

- Marth's sole mission seems to be slaying citizens of the Mushroom Kingdom. I'm pretty sure that he has positive matchups against like...all of them? In any case, his power has picked up in spades after the generous buffs from last patch (and other patches before it). Maybe not as much as Mewtwo, but it is enough to put him on people's radars again. He's certainly a contender now, but I wouldn't be too worried, as there are a fair amount of checks to him. His MU spread seems a lot like "Cloud Light", honestly. Though he trades a better Mario matchup for a worse Sonic matchup...and Diddy, and ZSS. Bummer. It doesn't matter too much though, as both Marth and Cloud play quite differently from one another, and that is something that is more important for players to consider when picking up a character. Their Up B's are still pretty meh, though. But unlike Fox, they don't get punished as hard for using it.

- Meta Knight seems to have a Rayquaza/Deoxys relationship with Rosalina. Against most characters, he is pretty chill with them. Even going as far as letting them beat him, probably as a knightly code of honor or something. But the moment that Rosalina steps into the room, he throws his chivalry aside, and goes on a bloodthirsty rampage against the cosmic queen. Sword swings and pieces of Luma start flying everywhere, as demonic laughs can be heard beneath that sinister mask of his. And after banishing her to the shadow realm with his Galaca Darkness, he goes back to being a flying hacky sack for cats, monkies, ninjas, and plumbers. He also doesn't like Sonic, because he spins better than he does.


ONE FINAL NOTE: Although I feel as though this chart holds some degree of accuracy, in NO way I am saying that it is all true. Especially for the Green/Orange matchups, which can be more volatile than others. A good portion of them should be correct though. Lastly, while most of these are "top characters", that doesn't necessarily mean that they all are. Or, they could be. Up to you to decide, really. In any case, this is what I have for now.

Anywho, have fun tearing this up! :D

I'll make notes of what people have to say about the matchups/feel free to criticize. I made it for that reason/for clarity and discussion's sake~

This is really cool! Looking at this I find Cloud having almost only even matchups against the upper tiers of characters is really interesting, I dont really agree or disagree. Im just surprised with how people say things like -Cloud has a very dominant matchup spread and deserves nerfs- and then see this. But ill assume it is lower tier characters players that say that.

Overall a very cool chart you have made, tbh I do agree with one matchup however and I think it is Ryu. I think Cloud has more then a slight edge in the matchup that would warrant it being green. But id be happy to be proven wrong by anyone!
 
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Ropalme1914

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I think the full jump nair into footstool stuff is unreliable and very DI dependent.
In description Hooded sayed it was a true combo even with DI and frame 1 options. Why do you think it is unrealiable? Because of Ryu's air acceleration?

About that matchup chart, I agree with most of it, I maybe would change Cloud to orange and Sheik to green, but that is an relatively unpopular opinion and it was discussed already sometime ago.
 
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Emblem Lord

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I would need to see percents, but really when you are that close, most people will roll or keep blocking. When Ryu runs at you, generally trying to press something is how you get ****ed up.

Still its a pretty risk free way to get something going which is what Ryu really needs in his meta.

Set-play that yields good returns with minimal risk.
 
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FeelMeUp

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I hate to be "that" guy but Sheik vs MK, Cloud, and Marth should all be solidly blue.
Have come to admit the fact that M2 solidly beats her.
 

Ulevo

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I would change Mewtwo and Zero Suit to yellow for Meta Knight, and Mario to yellow or green. There is little evidence to suggest Mario has an advantage in that match up outside of small anecdotal evidence and shady match up arguments. The most notable of which is Ally vs Leo, in which Ally went on to win GOML in that same tournament. Mewtwo has exceptional tools to battle Meta Knight because Mewtwo is an exceptional character, but Mewtwo is still prey to what Meta Knight feasts on. Exploitable recovery, light, large hurt box frame, susceptible to dying to pseudo up air death combos, and being a victim of strong combos lean me to believe if either character has to win the match up it is Meta Knight. Zero Suit is in the opposite situation as Mario regarding match up consensus for the moment. Leo managed to beat Nairo at GOML, but Ito was recently taken out by Marss. Given the tool set of both characters, I think Meta Knight could win this match up, but it is more likely that it is one of the most even match ups he has.
 

Locuan

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I hate to be "that" guy but Sheik vs MK, Cloud, and Marth should all be solidly blue.
Could you expand on your reasoning? This is incredibly vague. A lot of us Marth's would disagree with that statement. She does have an advantage of course, but the match-up is way more manageable after the changes both have received.
 
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