Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Nu~]

I did but I didn't cover everything I wanted to touch on (specifically anti-cloud tech development + doubles). Will do so after work.

@BSP

I know that this probably isn't what you're referring to by anti cloud tech development (you're talking about stuffing his recovery aren't you?), but what I would like to see more from pac-mains in the cloud matchup is setting up whenever he charges limit.

I often hear pacman mains complain that cloud forces us to approach by charging limit, but they're looking at this the wrong way. Remember that pacman still has a highly dangerous set up game and cloud just hands you all the time you need whenever he decides to limit camp you.

If cloud starts the match by charging his limit, I'll normally charge straight to the Key/Galaxian and catch it. Then I'm ready to set up z dropping shenanigans by the time he's done charging limit. In the end, we turn the tables on him by forcing him to approach through a dangerous field of z drop launched fire hydrants while we wait to punish any mistake with a fruit in the hand.


PS. Bonus points if you manage to set up a trampoline before cloud approaches you

 

[Scrubtorights]

I'm not sure what the following post were made for but let me mention I'm not trying to say adapt or be "tough guy" on the internet. (Just a game after all.) That has been said many times on this very thread alone. Its important to criticize. This game has many flaws but I like the game enough to mention. Maybe what I typed before wasn't very clear but what I simply meant was that the complaints are okay but they should be made without being taken as personal attack. Again I apologize if I didn't make that clear.

 

[the king of murder]

Ok I have a very controversial opinion right now and I wanted some thoughts on what you people think. I think Mario is one character who can contest Cloud as the best double character(not quite on his level but he is close). Let me explain

-FLUDD (and to a lesser extent cape) allows for a lot of gimmicks
Gimmicks are really powerful on 2vs2 and the fact that it allows to push both your teammate and your opponent very far allows for some very creative and suprising setups.(One example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWs5oX5apUQ) Other things I can think of are pushing your opponent offstage with fludd into a spike. It's not the strongest gimmick(For example Villager also has a lot of possibilities with pocket and other stuff or Bayonetta with Witch Time, hehe) but other characters don't have it with the other combination of Marios kit

- Godlike frame data and great mobility
That means he can swing to one opponent to another in an instance and can even afford a teammember who needs babying while staying fairly reliable because he can pressure and suffocate someone and using that pressure to escape and deal with someone else. It's why he is good in 2vs1 situation as well(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AugUtJRceKU time stamp at 2:46) plus his usual strenghts in singles are still pretty much relevant(combos and damage racking are still super great and you have a teammate to help you out too)

-Killing isn't as much of an issue here
One of Marios weaknesses is killing opponents in singles. Not so much in doubles. You can't hold shield for too long on doubles or you risk being pressured hard. His u-smash(and to an extend his other smashes) is better than ever before now plus he can achieve a lot of early kills with Fair spikes, capes and Fludd setups)--> I know that there are a lot of other characters that are better at killing but my point was that one of Marios weaknesses is negated here. ZSS risky grab and Clouds recovery are still very much an issue in 2vs2 for example.

-Range is also not as much of an issue as in singles because in 2vs2 it's pretty chaotic, which means Mario has a lot of opportunities to sneak under your disjoints and suffocate you with his combo and frame data

Overall, he can play supporter, killer, damage racker and sometimes even a stock tank and he is good to great in all of those roles. He may or may not be quite Cloud level in doubles, I am not sure but I think he has quite impressed me as double character.

 

[Aaron1997]

-Cloud
I'm going to admit right now that I complained about Cloud like the low level players did but unlike those players I didn't give up. I sucked it up and find ways to expose his weaknesses. I'm not going to throw away almost 400 hours on Pacman just becuase of 1 very strong character. We've been though worst in this game with Bayo, Diddy, Sheik, Luigi, Zss. Plus it lead to me picking up Shulk which is been a really good decision. Picking up a top tier is not always the answer. Sometimes picking up something that you enjoy playing is better then any top tier could give you. Also its fun to try to master 2 very high skill Ceilings. If I could do it, and get PR and my best Tourney placings with 2 considered low tiers (even though Arkansas is not really the strongest scene out there) anyone can.

 

[paperchao]

So about cloud counter play, he can be 2 framed if he recovers perfectly low, and if he recovers high, esams perfect shield retaliation method works as well, you can even crouch to make it easier. Maybe the key to edgeguarding cloud is to get him to not snap with climbhazard?

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I think challenging Cloud's recovery onstage is the way to go. So instead of going offstage for bair stage spikes (which seems less than optimal due to climhazzard hitboxes) it seems better to wait at the ledge and punish the frames where the recovery doesn't clip.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Ok I have a very controversial opinion right now and I wanted some thoughts on what you people think. I think Mario is one character who can contest Cloud as the best double character(not quite on his level but he is close). Let me explain

-FLUDD (and to a lesser extent cape) allows for a lot of gimmicks
Gimmicks are really powerful on 2vs2 and the fact that it allows to push both your teammate and your opponent very far allows for some very creative and suprising setups.(One example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWs5oX5apUQ) Other things I can think of are pushing your opponent offstage with fludd into a spike. It's not the strongest gimmick(For example Villager also has a lot of possibilities with pocket and other stuff or Bayonetta with Witch Time, hehe) but other characters don't have it with the other combination of Marios kit

- Godlike frame data and great mobility
That means he can swing to one opponent to another in an instance and can even afford a teammember who needs babying while staying fairly reliable because he can pressure and suffocate someone and using that pressure to escape and deal with someone else. It's why he is good in 2vs1 situation as well(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AugUtJRceKU time stamp at 2:46) plus his usual strenghts in singles are still pretty much relevant(combos and damage racking are still super great and you have a teammate to help you out too)

-Killing isn't as much of an issue here
One of Marios weaknesses is killing opponents in singles. Not so much in doubles. You can't hold shield for too long on doubles or you risk being pressured hard. His u-smash(and to an extend his other smashes) is better than ever before now plus he can achieve a lot of early kills with Fair spikes, capes and Fludd setups)--> I know that there are a lot of other characters that are better at killing but my point was that one of Marios weaknesses is negated here. ZSS risky grab and Clouds recovery are still very much an issue in 2vs2 for example.

-Range is also not as much of an issue as in singles because in 2vs2 it's pretty chaotic, which means Mario has a lot of opportunities to sneak under your disjoints and suffocate you with his combo and frame data

Overall, he can play supporter, killer, damage racker and sometimes even a stock tank and he is good to great in all of those roles. He may or may not be quite Cloud level in doubles, I am not sure but I think he has quite impressed me as double character.

Definitely agree with this post. Mario may not be the best, but I do certainly think he is in the upper echelon of characters to play in doubles. However, I think that another character is very overlooked: Ryu.

On paper, it all makes sense. He's a heavy, hard hitting ******* with loads of killing power, a shield breaker, a spike, and some great edge-guarding tools. His only issue is mobility, which honestly isn't a huge deal. And it becomes much less of an issue when there are 3 other characters on the screen.

In Melee, a popular tactic with Jigglypuff was for her teammate to grab, and for her to rest the grabbed opponent. Now we don't have a move nearly as oppressive as Melee rest in this game, but if we have any move that's remotely close to it, it's TRSK. The same set-up works. Ryu's partner grabs, Ryu runs up and TRSKs. Should he whiff, he only suffers about 1 second of endlag as opposed to 5.

Ryu's throws also act a lot like Clouds. They aren't going to kill or give him any followups, but they do send enemies at pretty convenient angles for your partner to follow up on. And downthrow has a very strange property that a lot of people don't know about. If Ryu gets a grab and dthrows whoever he grabbed while someone is right next to him shielding...their shield will break. Yes it's absurd, I'm wish I was making that up.

Focus Attack also makes for a great tool seeing as it can be used for mobility, spacing, intimidation, or hard punishment which will lead into a ton of damage, or kills.

While Ryu isn't quite as versatile as Mario in what roles he take take in doubles, he thrives in what roles he can fulfill, be it stock tank, damage racker, or killer.

I think the reason we don't see a lot of Ryu play (mainly in doubles) is because of how unexplored the character is. For whatever reason, it took us almost a year to realize what he was capable of, now it's only a matter of time.

 

[paperchao]

I'd say mii swordsman with all his specials would be a good dubs character, Chakram is a handy projectile that goes through enemies and has a combo version perfect for partner followups. His throws are also pretty great for team combos too, he can act as a great support teammate for a character who can cover his frame data, and in return swordie can help against zoning and projectiles and edgeguard stuff too. (Swordfighters dair is really, really, good.)

 

[Zelder]

Every character is a good doubles character, but I think Cloud, Mario, Ryu and Ness (*in ness voice* "welcome to the back throw cannon scrub") stand out to me as being exceptionally good doubles characters. Sheik used to be a fantastic doubles character until they made her a paperweight.

 

[Djent]

WRT in doubles, Vinnie+Trela is the team to watch at both CEO and EVO. After Zero+Nairo almost lost to Trela+Cosmos, I am legitimately scared of what the character will accomplish when paired with Sheik or Cloud.

 

[verbatim]

I would argue that certain characters get worse in doubles, pikachu, Rosa, maybe Sonic(?).

 

[NewZen]

In Doubles, it depends on who is being played with who, honestly. For example, Megs and Rosa are an example of a powerful team, but Megs does infinitely worse with Fox/Falco as partners, due to basically losing one of his kill options (Albeit, not a necessarily reliable one...) options because the Reflectors and Fox's light build. But overall, I find the number of choices who are better outweigh those who are worse.

 

[the king of murder]

I would argue that camp heavy characters kinda struggle in doubles but even they have their niche, yeah. Team synergy is obviously the most important thing here, so player vs player is even more emphasized in the 2vs2 enviroment.

Every character is a good doubles character, but I think Cloud, Mario, Ryu and Ness (*in ness voice* "welcome to the back throw cannon scrub") stand out to me as being exceptionally good doubles characters. Sheik used to be a fantastic doubles character until they made her a paperweight.

Agreed with the overall points. Honestly if you think hard enough, you can pull out all kinds of creative things against everyone. Labbing doubles should be pretty fun, I tell ya. (Like Mew2s reflector or reflectors in general, you can pull out some pretty situational but awesome and effective stuff with it).

The reason I specially choose Mario is because, not only is he super great in his niche but can fulfill all the other rolls, if you so choose with a scary efficiency something only a very few characters can claim.

 

[Chalice]

Cloud is broken in doubles because he comes from a game where he has teammates to fight alongside with

 

[PK Gaming]

Cloud is broken in doubles because he comes from a game where he has teammates to fight alongside with

Could explain why Mario's so solid in Doubles too. He had teammates in Super Mario RPG!

 

[Jams.]

@~ Gheb ~ I'm curious about your opinions on 's viability. Your opinions on character viability seem largely driven by top level results, and Peach seems kind of like an anomaly in that case. Her players have consistently performed even at the top level, and she's slain lots of high and top level players. With all this in mind, why do you feel that Peach is mid tier? Not saying she isn't, but I'd be interested in hearing your justification.

---

If you haven't read the latest Vayseth's Voyage, I recommend doing so since it's an amazing article series. Ikep, who got 3rd at the last Sumabato, had some very hopeful and interesting things to say about post-patch Bayonetta:

The most interesting story of the tournament was @ikep, (pronounced like the letters E-K-P), the strongest Bayonetta main in Japan. ikep has had better results post-patch than pre-patch. I spoke with ikep about his results lately and he was delighted to talk about his beloved character. He stressed to me that pre-patch Bayonetta was all about dial-up combos. You could do all the research you wanted, but you were never going to find anything better than the up B into side B into up B bread-and-butter zero-to-death combos. Now post patch, Bayonetta is finally ready to be developed as a character.

"I studied various combos before the patch and by far the best were the brain dead combos. However, now I can discover new and exciting combos that put my opponents in very precarious positions. Actually, I really like the new Bayonetta," ikep explained to me after unfortunately losing in loser's finals. "Bayonetta is a very unique character with extremely strong moves such as witch time," he said enthusiastically. "I would be so happy if more people used her."​

 

[C0rvus]

In doubles there are definitely roles that characters tend to be better at, and many characters can shine with good team composition. Being slow and clunky or easy to combo is less of an issue when you're playing support with a Mario or Sheik in the lead, but when your buddy plays Meta Knight and you play Charizard and Rosalina, you may be in trouble. The best doubles characters are either flexible (Mario, Diddy, Ness) or exceptionally good at their role (Cloud, Meta Knight, Ryu, etc.) Characters like Rosalina are weird in doubles, she doesn't really fit on a traditionally played lead + support team. I guess your team can also be focused on walling; as Dabuz's teams usually are. Dabuz + Hyuga is a definitely a good example.

I'm no expert, but most characters can succeed in doubles. Puff is pretty solid in a teams format; I've seen Dol do some crazy stuff with her. Synergy and composition can bridge the gap between players' skill level. I am not a fan of teams of just 2 top level players who just try to force dual 1v1 situations and stay out of each others' way. It's definitely a legit strategy, but it just seems lazy to me.

 

[Ninety]

I'd make a similar joke about Robin and Pair Up, but I don't actually know anything about his viability in doubles. Armchair theorizing would suggest that Arcthunder, Arcfire and Thoron all lend themselves well to team play, but I don't play doubles so idk.

 

[blackghost]

i dont think every character improves in doubles. i find bayo to be very underwhelming in doubles. her assesets long carrying combos and witch time reads are gone and her smash attacks get canceled out by the hitboxes.
almost all other characters get better tho.

 

[meticulousboy]

@~ Gheb ~ I'm curious about your opinions on 's viability. Your opinions on character viability seem largely driven by top level results, and Peach seems kind of like an anomaly in that case. Her players have consistently performed even at the top level, and she's slain lots of high and top level players. With all this in mind, why do you feel that Peach is mid tier? Not saying she isn't, but I'd be interested in hearing your justification.

Peach is my main. So I will say things based on my experience with her. Peach is completely viable. Being one of the few characters that can use an item in the neutral is great. Last thing a Cloud player wants is to be sniped by a turnip when in non-Limit mode. Because Cloud's Up B goes past the ledge without Limit, Peach can just Toad that move. She shines the most offstage because, hello, offstage is in the air. So gimping is the way to go with her. Her viability is up there.

 

[C0rvus]

i dont think every character improves in doubles. i find bayo to be very underwhelming in doubles. her assesets long carrying combos and witch time reads are gone and her smash attacks get canceled out by the hitboxes.
almost all other characters get better tho.

I agree, actually. Bayo is very underwhelming in doubles. She gets outbuttoned easily, can't lead terribly well, and she just seems more suited to 1v1. I think Rosalina and Pikachu also do worse than in singles. I can't imagine ROB doing terribly well, and heavies seem to be hit or miss. Yeah they can kill, but they tend to get team comboed or just swatted around a lot, so it's kind of a momentum based thing.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

@~ Gheb ~ I'm curious about your opinions on 's viability. Your opinions on character viability seem largely driven by top level results, and Peach seems kind of like an anomaly in that case. Her players have consistently performed even at the top level, and she's slain lots of high and top level players. With all this in mind, why do you feel that Peach is mid tier? Not saying she isn't, but I'd be interested in hearing your justification.

---

If you haven't read the latest Vayseth's Voyage, I recommend doing so since it's an amazing article series. Ikep, who got 3rd at the last Sumabato, had some very hopeful and interesting things to say about post-patch Bayonetta:

That's that Japanese. If it was a American player, he wouldn't care and would style with the sub-optimal combos.

We would try to play marvel/combo video vs them playing brawl ICs.

 

[Krysco]

As someone who's at one of the lowest levels of Smash, being restricted to online for the time being and never having entered a Sm4sh online tournament, I can say that Cloud is troubling to fight but not impossible. I find most of my success in the mu with Mario but my own Cloud and Mewtwo tend to handle it just fine. My cousin is restricted to Fox (he's a Peach main who also has a Link), and Cloud is honestly a bit of a roadblock for him. I mostly dropped the character because at the level I'm at, you can easily get away with just throwing out moves, especially if you understand spacing. Lag doesn't help matters. You can easily catch yourself going autopilot with Cloud on FG or FG/FF dubs. Part of why I like Robin and Mewtwo so much. They force me to have to think despite the pitifully low level I'm currently stuck at.

As for dubs, once to twice a week my cousin comes over and we often do FG and FF dubs and from those experiences, I can say that Meta Knight is at least decent. Uthrow has an incredibly powerful hitbox on MK as he comes crashing down and if you catch someone in Mach Tornado, your partner can use a strong up b, uair or usmash if the opponent is at kill percent, possibly at the cost of the MK's stock though. More opportunities for Shuttle Loop too although whiffs are even more punishable. For anyone unaware, FG and FF dubs don't have team attack on for whatever reason so I am acknowledging that I have to factor that in. R.O.B. in dubs without team attack is absolute BS.

 

[Floor]

I would argue that certain characters get worse in doubles, pikachu, Rosa, maybe Sonic(?).

Diddy Kong too. He isn't as able to do his banana combos

 

[Fenny]

I think challenging Cloud's recovery onstage is the way to go. So instead of going offstage for bair stage spikes (which seems less than optimal due to climhazzard hitboxes) it seems better to wait at the ledge and punish the frames where the recovery doesn't clip.

I tend to read where the Cloud's gonna use Climhazzard from (which isn't very hard for the most part) and then attack him from the back instead of the front to avoid the escalating hurtbox. As a Bayo main, it's pretty easy for me to do since her extended Nair's hurtbox is active for so long. If I'm fast enough I go for a cheeky Bair, but I don't land it very often unless it's after the animation's ended. When it does hit though, they get stage spiked into the Shadow Realm unless they tech.

 

[BunbUn129]

As someone who's at one of the lowest levels of Smash, being restricted to online for the time being and never having entered a Sm4sh online tournament, I can say that Cloud is troubling to fight but not impossible. I find most of my success in the mu with Mario but my own Cloud and Mewtwo tend to handle it just fine. My cousin is restricted to Fox (he's a Peach main who also has a Link), and Cloud is honestly a bit of a roadblock for him. I mostly dropped the character because at the level I'm at, you can easily get away with just throwing out moves, especially if you understand spacing. Lag doesn't help matters. You can easily catch yourself going autopilot with Cloud on FG or FG/FF dubs. Part of why I like Robin and Mewtwo so much. They force me to have to think despite the pitifully low level I'm currently stuck at.

As for dubs, once to twice a week my cousin comes over and we often do FG and FF dubs and from those experiences, I can say that Meta Knight is at least decent. Uthrow has an incredibly powerful hitbox on MK as he comes crashing down and if you catch someone in Mach Tornado, your partner can use a strong up b, uair or usmash if the opponent is at kill percent, possibly at the cost of the MK's stock though. More opportunities for Shuttle Loop too although whiffs are even more punishable. For anyone unaware, FG and FF dubs don't have team attack on for whatever reason so I am acknowledging that I have to factor that in. R.O.B. in dubs without team attack is absolute BS.

MK's up b being even more punishable in doubles isn't always true. This is doubles, so your teammate can sometimes come to the rescue and use a weak move to knock MK out of his helpless animation. Sheik and Mario are good partners for him, with one reason being they have low damage-per-hit, Sheik more so, especially because she can cover ground quickly and get to him when he's in need. Aside from that, he also doesn't put much extra weight on your shoulders at all because of his strong disadvantaged state; if the opponent team isn't true comboing him you generally don't have to worry about him. But yeah, MK is really good in doubles with SL being a major reason as he finds many opportunities to land the move off of his partner's throws; because of its range, speed, and power it's an ideal move for finishing team combos.

Edit: also Sheik-MK is a very good team because neither one has to babysit the other when they're in a disadvantaged state; that and Sheik's neutral + MK's strong KO'ing ability is a potent combo to have.

 

[Mr. Johan]

I'd make a similar joke about Robin and Pair Up, but I don't actually know anything about his viability in doubles. Armchair theorizing would suggest that Arcthunder, Arcfire and Thoron all lend themselves well to team play, but I don't play doubles so idk.

It's more that Robin's aerials demand respect in a cramped environment like doubles. The opposing team's aerial positioning at SH level is going to be a lot more hesitant and can force bad landings, forced double jumps, and stilted movement in general.

Stick that aerial pressure in with a teammate who can control the ground just as well and have a party.

 

[NewZen]

Quick question, since we're discussing Doubles viability for certain characters, how would any Mains describe his overall changes in Doubles and who he works best with? I find him to be overall effective, but the risk in some of his moves with their fairly strong kill power (Back HB on U-Smash, the sweep behind on the D-Smash, etc) when your ally gets too close to the fray has caused me to take some stocks from our team, not to mention I have a hard time decided if U-Air or Rising Cyclone is a better method to save my allies off-stage. Thanks.

(Oh yeah, so far, the best characters I've excelled with are: )

 

[Mario766]

Sonic is fantastic in doubles. He can play hit and run and stock tank, or go in and be self-sufficient.

Also, down throw/back throw is some of the best throws in doubles.

 

[outfoxd]

My static partner is a WFT and as long as i can maintain stage control (I run Rosa) he can hang onto stocks and provide fire support with deep breathing, balls and salute.

Throw to offstage header spike is just pure ecstacy too.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Back throw, sure.

But Down throw still has that initial ground bounce from the throw cinematic carried over from Brawl. Characters can tech that bounce and act out before Sonic can act, so they only have to deal with the partner if he or she's around at that moment ready to capitalize.

I'm actually surprised when I see the top echelon fight Sonic and miss that first ground bounce tech.

 

[Ghostbone]

it's just logical that people are complacent when the developers fixed every problem and Cloud is the only problem remaining that needs to be fixed or the game dies at some point. A lot of people that lost to worse Cloud players have already made the switch or added him as a secondary. It's super unhealthy.

Last patch people said bayonetta was the only problem left.
After Cloud gets nerfed, people will be saying Mario and Fox are the only problems left.

It never ends, and Cloud isn't a real problem.

I consider myself a high level player and I'm very feasible in gimping Clouds and I'm pretty good at the match-up overall, and still pocket Clouds are a hell to fight. Every time I dominate game 1 my opponent switches to Cloud. It has happend like 15 times already. I won almost every set anyway but they came increadible close to beating me (I lost twice to pocket cloud so far) even though they didn't stand a chance with their main.
When I'm switching to Cloud myself as a counter to Cloud because I don't want close games I suddenly 2 or 3 stock most Clouds.
It feels incredibly stupid. I'm grinding Cloud atm to compete in the mirror, because people are pulling the pocket Cloud so often that I just don't want to play non-Cloud against them.
Cloud itself is variance in his purest form as well. In one match you body him because you get some edge guards in another set you get 3 stocked because he hit you with cross slash or finishing touch early.

Cloud is a serious problem. I will probably stick to Cloud for the mirror until the patch is coming and I know a lot of people are doing the same thing.

You play a character that loses -2 or -3 to Cloud, of course you're going to have a tough time. This doesn't mean the character is unfair.

Like holy ****, Rosa dominates a ridiculous number of mid and low tiers, to a far greater degree than Cloud. Your arguments make no sense.

And you talk about variance, most variance in this game comes from rage (and 2 stocks) and applies to every single character, and quite a few have much higher variance than Cloud (lucario, Wario, Rosa as a few examples)

 

[Mario766]

Back throw, sure.

But Down throw still has that initial ground bounce from the throw cinematic carried over from Brawl. Characters can tech that bounce and act out before Sonic can act, so they only have to deal with the partner if he or she's around at that moment ready to capitalize.

I'm actually surprised when I see the top echelon fight Sonic and miss that first ground bounce tech.

That's great and all, but that down throw, tech or no tech, is the single easiest throw to combo out of for basically the entire cast. If your partner can't help you in the time the throw animation finishes, your partner eats a smash attack or combo starter for free.

It's one of the main reasons why Ike/Sonic is so scary. One grab from Sonic turns into 40 percent because the Ike gets a free F-Smash.

 

[Ghostbone]

Cloud is broken in doubles because he comes from a game where he has teammates to fight alongside with

Why isn't shulk good then

 

[meticulousboy]

Samus should be ok in doubles. Have Ness or Lucas as a partner and she can heal either of them with Charge Shot. Plus, the partner can throw the opponent offstage and have Samus Down Air at the right time. Because Mario's meteor is always risky (Melee, anyone?), it's best to pick Samus, who has two chances to spike.

 

[NewZen]

Why isn't shulk good then

Well ya see....

*MASSIVE SPOILERS THAT SAKURAI SPOILS FOR EVERYONE WITH TROPHIES IN-GAME* and a few other problems, but I hope that clears it up for you.

 

[Yikarur]

Last patch people said bayonetta was the only problem left.
After Cloud gets nerfed, people will be saying Mario and Fox are the only problems left.

Thats not even true. Most people said Cloud and Bayo should be nerfed and it would be a good thing if they fixed the BKB issues with Rosalina. But most people don't want nerfs beyond that.

 

[Ghostbone]

Thats not even true. Most people said Cloud and Bayo should be nerfed and it would be a good thing if they fixed the BKB issues with Rosalina. But most people don't want nerfs beyond that.

Yea come back to me after the next patch. People are definitely going to complain about other characters if Cloud gets nerfed.

History has shown that the more and more nerfs you dish out, the more people want more nerfs. It's entitlement that comes from patches. Whenever people lose to stuff, they think they deserve for it to get nerfed, rather than learning to deal with it (which is obviously possible as evidenced but high level play).

Like you remember that recent tournament that bowser did well at? People were complaining about BOWSER and calling for BOWSER NERFS, comparing him to Brawl D3, because he supposedly dominates mid tiers too hard.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Last patch people said bayonetta was the only problem left.
After Cloud gets nerfed, people will be saying Mario and Fox are the only problems left.

It never ends, and Cloud isn't a real problem.

You play a character that loses -2 or -3 to Cloud, of course you're going to have a tough time. This doesn't mean the character is unfair.

Like holy ****, Rosa dominates a ridiculous number of mid and low tiers, to a far greater degree than Cloud. Your arguments make no sense.

And you talk about variance, most variance in this game comes from rage (and 2 stocks) and applies to every single character, and quite a few have much higher variance than Cloud (lucario, Wario, Rosa as a few examples)

People have been complaining about Cloud's jank since before the bayo nerfs. Gripes regarding LCS's absurd safety and killing power, aerial hitboxes, and general design concepts like limit are nothing new to 1.1.6. Some of us even thought Cloud would be nerfed in this recent patch, hence the surprised reactions when it was revealed that Bayonetta would be the only character changed.

No one in their right mind thinks Mario is broken or deserves a nerf. Unlike Cloud, he has clear counterplay, and although the safety of his upsmash and amazing frame data can be challenging, we all know he has balanced attributes. The only other character that I can legitimately see getting complants would be Rosalina, who I think we all can agree wouldn't mind some...adjustments.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Cloud is broken in doubles because he comes from a game where he has teammates to fight alongside with

Why isn't shulk good then

Well ya see....

*MASSIVE SPOILERS THAT SAKURAI SPOILS FOR EVERYONE WITH TROPHIES IN-GAME* and a few other problems, but I hope that clears it up for you.

this is cute and all but could we substantively discuss competitive viability please thanks.