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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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NewZen

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People have been complaining about Cloud's jank since before the bayo nerfs. Gripes regarding LCS's absurd safety and killing power, aerial hitboxes, and general design concepts like limit are nothing new to 1.1.6. Some of us even thought Cloud would be nerfed in this recent patch, hence the surprised reactions when it was revealed that Bayonetta would be the only character changes.

No one in their right mind thinks Mario is broken or deserves a nerf. Unlike Cloud, he has clear counterplay, and although the safety of his upsmash and amazing frame data can be challenging, we all know he has balanced attributes. The only other character that I can legitimately see getting complants would be Rosalina, who I think we all can agree wouldn't mind some...adjustments.
Yeah, I have to disagree with the whole "Nobody thinks Mario is broken" thing. Given how many people complain about Cloud, how many of the same types of people do you think others have seen in regards to people complaining about Mario (Up-Tilt into basically anything, overall balanced grounded toolkit that makes him safe against a number of characters in this game, effective gimping tools, etc.), as I've seen quite a number of people consider him, "Cheesy, OP," and "Unfair" on a number of other forums in the same way I see people endlessly complain about Cloud on the same types of forums.
 

Blobface

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Yo, can you lay this knowledge on me? I have not played Ganon in ages, and I'm interested to hear why old N-air was better.
Old Nair gave Ganon the ability to safely throw out a hitbox below him in the air, an area he can only threaten with F-air and D-air now, Both at least twice as slow and much less safe. But that's just the surface. Nair was invaluable for so so so many things in neutral.

Nair1's strong, long ranged hitbox opened up a whole tree of options in the air. You could FH Airdodge/B-air/U-air, then followup with a Nair. All of these could work as approaches.

It worked really good as a CQC option. If you were being pressured too much, you could do a retreating SH Nair (OoS even), and not only could the first hit knock people away from you, the lingering second hit and low landing lag made it very difficult to get a good punish.

But above all else, it was a god-tier spacing tool, something Ganondorf needs to keep people at midrange. You could space the first hit on grounded opponents, the second hit would cover aerial opponents, and the lingering hit would cover you if you missed. And if your opponent gets hit by either hit, they take big damage, get sent offstage or lose considerable stage control. It was so good that even Diddy "My-Fair-stretches-all-the-way-across-FD" Kong had to respect it in neutral. It was actually that good.

Now Ganondorf's Nair1 is basically useless. It's unsafe on hit if you land with it, it has literally no BKB so it never sets up for anything, and despite all the faffery that went into making it link, it doesn't even link when you most need it to, on grounded opponents.

Aaaaaaaah.

Edit: Oh yeah, and now hitting with the tip of Nair1 does absolutely nothing, like 5% and they get bapped away from you, so it's useless for spacing too.
 
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Shady Shaymin

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Yeah, I have to disagree with the whole "Nobody thinks Mario is broken" thing. Given how many people complain about Cloud, how many of the same types of people do you think others have seen in regards to people complaining about Mario (Up-Tilt into basically anything, overall balanced grounded toolkit that makes him safe against a number of characters in this game, effective gimping tools, etc.), as I've seen quite a number of people consider him, "Cheesy, OP," and "Unfair" on a number of other forums in the same way I see people endlessly complain about Cloud on the same types of forums.
Ground tools? Mario's ground tools are pretty mediocre. His tilts are virtually useless, his dash attack and jab are decent, and most of his ground pressure comes from dash grab. His upsmash is overtuned and extremely good, but unlike cloud, this extreme strength is meaningfully compensated for. He is easy to learn, but he also has a lower ceiling than Cloud, which is proven not only by mid to top level metrics, but also by theory. Mario's matchup spread is also much worse than that of Cloud.

Mario is not on Cloud's level. Stop comparing them.
 

L9999

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Every character is a good doubles character, but I think Cloud, Mario, Ryu and Ness (*in ness voice* "welcome to the back throw cannon scrub") stand out to me as being exceptionally good doubles characters. Sheik used to be a fantastic doubles character until they made her a paperweight.
Someone has to record Makiko Ohmoto saying that.

Mario is not on Cloud's level. Stop comparing them.
Yes, but unlike Cloud, Mario has gotten 1st at stacked stuff.
 

meticulousboy

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Ground tools? Mario's ground tools are pretty mediocre. His tilts are virtually useless, his dash attack and jab are decent, and most of his ground pressure comes from dash grab. His upsmash is overtuned and extremely good, but unlike cloud, this extreme strength is meaningfully compensated for. He is easy to learn, but he also has a lower ceiling than Cloud, which is proven not only by mid to top level metrics, but also by theory. Mario's matchup spread is also much worse than that of Cloud.

Mario is not on Cloud's level. Stop comparing them.
Are you kidding me? Up tilt chains should ring a bell. Also Mario's Down Tilt is a great spacing tool in CQC and combos into Super Jump Punch. Those tilts can't be useless, except maybe Forward Tilt.
 

Baby_Sneak

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Ground tools? Mario's ground tools are pretty mediocre. His tilts are virtually useless, his dash attack and jab are decent, and most of his ground pressure comes from dash grab. His upsmash is overtuned and extremely good, but unlike cloud, this extreme strength is meaningfully compensated for. He is easy to learn, but he also has a lower ceiling than Cloud, which is proven not only by mid to top level metrics, but also by theory. Mario's matchup spread is also much worse than that of Cloud.

Mario is not on Cloud's level. Stop comparing them.
Utilt ain't useless, Dtilt ain't useless, and Dsmash exists (frame 5. Like wow). Ftilt ain't useless either, but that move is very niche for spacing.

Also,
He is easy to learn, but he also has a lower ceiling than Cloud
what does that mean?

Let's not intentionally undersell a character to make them look fair.
 
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Shady Shaymin

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My bad. Every tilt bar utilt is virtually useless, or outclassed. In dtilt's case, the range and damage are inferior to jab, and the followup potential is outclassed by grab.

I'm not trying to undersell Mario. As a former pikachu main I know all too well that he is a headache of a character. My point is that, fir all intents and purposes, Cloud is a much more deadly character theory wise (most tend to agree that Cloud is top 3 while Mario is likely around top 5 or 8), and results wise Cloud is superior. Sure, our resident twitter god Ally has been slaying the past few tourneys, and Mario has certainly placed higher than Cloud, but which character shows up disproportionately more in top 16's worldwide?
 

Floor

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I'd argue Mario has a decently high ceiling. It's no Diddy, Sheik, ZSS, or mk, but good Marios are well rounded with all the tools they need to excel in many matchups. There's ways to make him work, but his true potential is a far cry from what the average player is capable of
 

NewZen

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Ground tools? Mario's ground tools are pretty mediocre. His tilts are virtually useless, his dash attack and jab are decent, and most of his ground pressure comes from dash grab. His upsmash is overtuned and extremely good, but unlike cloud, this extreme strength is meaningfully compensated for. He is easy to learn, but he also has a lower ceiling than Cloud, which is proven not only by mid to top level metrics, but also by theory. Mario's matchup spread is also much worse than that of Cloud.

Mario is not on Cloud's level. Stop comparing them.
This entire post reeks of pure and utter bias and actually shows you have no idea what you're talking about regarding Mario...
 

C0rvus

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Mario's ground game? Who cares about that when he has lagless aerials, a projectile for approaching mixups, a threatening dash grab. Only things his tilts need to do is combo out of down throw. His best ground move is probably up smash.
 

Peppermint1201

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Ground tools? Mario's ground tools are pretty mediocre. His tilts are virtually useless, his dash attack and jab are decent, and most of his ground pressure comes from dash grab. His upsmash is overtuned and extremely good, but unlike cloud, this extreme strength is meaningfully compensated for. He is easy to learn, but he also has a lower ceiling than Cloud, which is proven not only by mid to top level metrics, but also by theory. Mario's matchup spread is also much worse than that of Cloud.

Mario is not on Cloud's level. Stop comparing them.
Dash attack isn't "decent." Shield and jump both beat it. Mario won't be landing dash attack unless his opponent does nothing or rolls back. Even if it does hit, it will never get follow-ups.

Your thing about downtilt makes no sense. Having comparable range to jab and comparable follow-ups to dthrow does not make it "outclassed" because it is still the only non-grab attack with strong follow-ups. On top of that, it starts 3 frames sooner than dashgrab and has 8 less frames of endlag. It's faster than standing grab as well, albeit by a smaller margin. Overall, dtilt has a niche as an attack that is safer than grab but still has strong combo ability.
 

Ghostbone

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Ground tools? Mario's ground tools are pretty mediocre. His tilts are virtually useless
Apparently Mario's up-tilt that sets up for everything and combos out of a grab, and d-tilt that is a safe poke that also sets up for everything are useless.
his dash attack and jab are decent
Dash attack is only decent sure, mostly useful as an option to hit 2 frames or someone holding the ledge.
But you can't in your right mind call a frame 2 jab "decent". Mario's jab is amazing, he can outbox other characters with ridiculous frame data because his grounded frame data is also ridiculous.
and most of his ground pressure comes from dash grab. His upsmash is overtuned and extremely good, but unlike cloud, this extreme strength is meaningfully compensated for. He is easy to learn, but he also has a lower ceiling than Cloud, which is proven not only by mid to top level metrics, but also by theory. Mario's matchup spread is also much worse than that of Cloud.

Mario is not on Cloud's level. Stop comparing them.
"Up-smash is overtuned"
Ughhh the buzzwords, do you even know what you're saying? Overtuned is just a buzzword for moves that people think are unfair. You're already on the line of thinking part of Mario's kit is unfair so it's amusing you think nobody could ever complain about him.

A lower ceiling than Cloud? You mean actually winning major tournaments, over the best player in the world, is A LOWER CEILING than placing in the lower half of top 8s? Mario's top level results are better than Clouds currently, stop denying reality lol.
 
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paperchao

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This thread really feels like a place for people to whine about cloud lately, tbh.

Could characters with strong ground games trump cloud? His ground game is pretty mortal compared to other top tiers, and could be abusable due to his disadvantage not being the best.
 

Das Koopa

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Weekend results.

Sumabato 11 (June 18th) (Japan) (181 Entrants) (Category 2)
1st: Komorikiri :4sonic:, :4cloud2:
2nd: Kie :4peach:
3rd: Ikep :4bayonetta:
4th: You3 :4duckhunt:
5th: Earth :4pit:, :4corrinf:
5th: Oisiitouhu :4greninja:
7th: Aki :4ryu:, :4sheik:
7th: FILIP :4mario:, :4cloud2:
9th: Gomamugitya :4lucario:
9th: Z-Tan :4cloud2:, :4sonic:
9th: Fuwa :4marth:
9th: Tatsutsuyo :4mario:
13th: Sylph :4sheik:
13th: Souther :4falcon:
13th: HIKARU :4dk:
13th: A :4myfriends:

Apex 2016 (June 17th-19th) (Tristate) (309 Entrants) (Category 2)
1st: Dabuz :rosalina:
2nd: VoiD :4sheik:,:4fox:
3rd: Nietono :4diddy:, :4cloud2:
4th: Mew2King :4cloud:
5th: Supergirlkels :4sonic:
5th: Marss :4zss:
7th: Tweek :4cloud2:
7th: James :4cloud2:, :4diddy:
9th: The Great Gonzales :4ness:
9th: Umeki :4peach:
9th: RAIN :4cloud2:
9th: Mr. E :4marth:
13th: Day :4lucario:
13th: Pugwest :4marth:
13th: 6WX :4sonic:
13th: Raptor :4yoshi:

Low Tier City 4 (June 18th-19th) (South) (317 Entrants) (Category 2)
1st: ZeRo :4diddy:
2nd: Nairo :4zss:
3rd: Hyuga :4tlink:
4th: Cosmos :4corrinf:
5th: ESAM :4pikachu:, :4corrinf: (:4corrin:?
)
5th: Mook :4fox:, :4pikachu:
7th: P2P with Gibus :4greninja:, :4lucario:
7th: DKWill :4dk:
9th: Illusion. :4greninja:
9th: MVD :4diddy:
9th: FunCrazyFish :4wiifit:
9th: MJG :4villager:
13th: Mew^2 :4mewtwo:
13th: Jerm :4robinf:
13th: AeroLink :4bayonetta:
13th: ForbiddenOne :4pacman:


Smash Factor Prelude (June 18th) (Mexico) (85 Entrants) (Category 1)
1st: Mr. R :4sheik:
2nd: MK Leo :4marth:, :4cloud2:
3rd: Wonf :4sonic:, :4bayonetta:
4th: Pollo :4bowser:
5th: Klein :4ryu:
5th: Serge :4lucario:, :4cloud2:
7th: Javi :4sheik:, :4ness:
7th: Chag :4bayonetta:
9th: SF Lazh :4falcon:
9th: Elvis Park :4fox:
9th: SF Citi :4gaw:
9th: Cloudy :4cloud2:
13th: HY-And :4yoshi:
13th: CS Kaze :4falcon:
13th: Bryan Z :4sheik:, :4mario:, :4diddy:
13th: Manzano :4peach:


Breakout III (June 18th) (Midwest) (96 Entrants) (Category 1)
1st: Ally :4mario:, :4cloud2:
2nd: Rayquaza07 :rosalina:, :4bowser:
3rd: Seagull Joe :4sonic:
4th: Blacktwins :4cloud2:, :4mario:
5th: Miloni :4cloud2:
5th: Ryuga :4corrinf:
7th: Zinoto :4diddy:
7th: LOE1 :4littlemac:, :4diddy:
9th: Zyth :4miibrawl:, :4dk:
9th: GP Linus :4bowser:
9th: AoH Vanity :4gaw:
9th: GG Nom :4corrinf:
13th: Adorable Knight :4luigi:
13th: Ge0 :4diddy:
13th: FS Chris :4yoshi:
13th: Zidico :4link:


Smash at Church (June 18th) (West Coast) (108 Entrants) (Category 1)
1st: Aphro :4bayonetta:, :rosalina:
2nd: K9 :4sheik:
3rd: Charliedaking :4fox:
4th: ImHip :4olimar:, :4duckhunt:
5th: Rich Brown :4mewtwo:
5th: Aarvark :4villager:
7th: Not Last :4peach:
7th: Elegant :4luigi:
9th: S2H :4metaknight:
9th: E2C Chompy :4pit:
9th: Kiraflax :4pit:, :4rob:
9th: A2 Dynamo :4sheik:
13th: Ikez :4olimar:
13th: Linkedknight :4link:
13th: MastaMario :4mario:
13th: Eon Wave :4fox:

Emerald City III (June 18th) (Pacific Northwest) (103 Entrants) (Category 1)
1st: Captain L :4pikachu:
2nd: Locus :4ryu:
3rd: Big D :4dedede:, :4mario:, :4falcon:
4th: Firefly :4yoshi:
5th: Shinkou :4sheik:
5th: Konga :4dk:
7th: Big Boss :4peach:
7th: Ruff! :4mario:, :4samus:
9th: Yope :4sonic:
9th: Jamnt0ast :4rob:
9th: Len :4pit:
9th: Felix :4diddy:
13th: Locke :4megaman:
13th: FedvsRafa :4luigi:
13th: Disorient :4zss:, :4corrinf:
13th: Tsage :4link:

Character scores, updated:

Top 16, Weighted
Sheik: 172.5
Cloud: 167
Diddy Kong: 152.5
Fox: 108.5
Mario: 103.5
Sonic: 99
Zero Suit Samus: 83.5
Rosalina & Luma: 83.5
Bayonetta: 64.5
Ryu: 53
Marth: 53
Meta Knight: 49.5
Pikachu: 48
Peach: 47
Captain Falcon: 46.5
Corrin: 39.5
Donkey Kong: 36
Greninja: 35.5
R.O.B: 35.5
Ness: 34
Toon Link: 30.5
Luigi: 30
Bowser: 29.5
Duck Hunt: 26.5
Villager: 26
Yoshi: 26
Lucario: 25.5
Little Mac: 25
Mewtwo: 24
Pit: 23
Ike: 21.5
Robin: 21
Lucas: 18
Olimar: 14
Mega Man: 13
King Dedede: 13
Pac-Man: 11
Wii Fit Trainer: 9
Mr. Game & Watch: 9
Palutena: 8
Wario: 8
Link: 8
Bowser Jr.: 7
Kirby: 5
Shulk: 5
Mii Brawler: 4
Falco: 2.5
Zelda: 2
 
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ILOVESMASH

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Mario's ground game isn't bad at all. His D-Tilt is pretty solid. It has enough range to hit most characters out of their grabbing distance, fairly safe on shield, and it can set up into up airs or grabs depending on their precent. Up tilt is also really good, as it can chain into itself and set up U-Air combos like with D-tilt. Jab is great since it can Jab lock's opponents who miss their tech and is really fast. Really, the only situational moves in Mario's ground game are F-tilt and Dash attack.
 

Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
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This^^

I agree that he's overturned, but he's no brawl MK. People will always switch to top tiers if becoming the best is their main goal. The only reason they switch to cloud so often is because he's the easiest top tier to use.

It's sad to see mid tier mains like Raziek lose faith in their character and pick up cloud, but their thirst for winning surpassed their passion for their character. That's totally understandable.
It's a fair point that players aiming for the top will pick a character they think they can get there with.

However take a look at something Raziek said in his post explaining his switch from Robin to Cloud (http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sopop6):



The rest of Raziek's post is exactly what you'd expect from a low-mid tier hero switching to a top tier: he's disappointed with his recent results, and realizing that he could be much more successful by switching full time to his top tier pocket. But the fact that he wouldn't consider dropping his main for any other high/top tier character suggests Cloud is in some respect not just another top tier.

Of course Raziek is only speaking for himself, but it does seem as though Cloud attracts a lot more defectors from low, mid, and high tier mains than any other character in the current meta.

The questions to ask are why this is the case, and whether it's good, bad, or neutral for the meta.

The "why" is mostly agreed upon. He is a top 1-3 character and is much easier to pick up than any other top or high tier character.

Whether this is anything to be concerned about is much more controversial. One position is that no amount of pocket Clouds or switching of mains should be treated as cause for concern until Cloud starts looking more dominant in majors and super majors (this argument was made frequently for pre-patch Bayo). On the other hand Cloud's presence at that level is definitely increasing, and since his player base is growing while already being the largest, that trend will likely continue. And if Cloud does continue growing more popular across all levels, and we see more and more Cloud pockets turn into Cloud mains, then it will be hard to argue that there isn't a problem here.
I want to clarify a couple of points since apparently I'm important enough to be a topic of discussion on my switch of characters.

The main thing I wanted to address is that I'm not switching to Cloud solely because he's good. Yes, he's clearly amazing. I personally think he's top 3 in the game with basically no real debate.

However, I am also switching to him because I find him fun as hell AND he's strong.

I have always played sword characters in virtually every game that I can do so. (I learned fighters on Brawl Marth, play Cloud/Robin/Corrin in this game, and play characters with sword-like disjoints in other fighters (Baiken in GG, Terumi in BB, etc) It is how I prefer to play (heavy zoning/spacing), and Cloud provides me very satisfying gameplay in addition to being very strong. Its for that reason that I simply CAN'T switch to another character. I can't play non-sword characters. That's why I wouldn't switch to 'any other top tier'.

THAT SAID, I would not switch to Cloud if I did not enjoy him. I fully believe in order to realize one's potential with a character they must have a passion for playing that character, as that is what drives them to come up with new and creative solutions and gameplay styles. Playing a character without the passion to do so results in a cookie-cutter gameplay style that will plateau at a point. You saw this with a lot of average MK players in Brawl.

I enjoy Cloud a lot, Cloud is amazing, and that's why I'm choosing to main him.

Further, to clarify on where I stand on Corrin, since I only briefly touched on that in my Twitter post:

When I say I would be playing Corrin/Robin if Cloud didn't exist, what I meant by that is that I as a competitive player need to carefully consider how thin I am spreading my efforts in order to maximize inputted time to outputted results.

After Genesis, when Corrin released, I went into a bit of an exploratory period where I was playing Robin, Corrin, and Cloud in roughly equal parts. I was trying to decide who I wanted to play in what matchups. I enjoy all 3 characters. I am skilled with all 3 characters. However, as I moved towards GOML, I found myself gravitating toward Cloud the most strongly out of the 3.

There are a number of reasons for this, but ease of use and better matchups would be the primary two. I think Corrin is fairly technical and unorthodox in how she's got to use all of her tools, whereas Cloud is a much more straightforward character. Corrin also still struggles somewhat (at least IMO) with some of the matchups that are the specific reason I am moving away from Robin (Diddy most notably, somewhat ZSS).

So in making the decision between Cloud and Corrin to focus on, I went with the one I thought was stronger and would provide me with better results. I think both are strong characters, but my goal was to find a sweetspot on playing to win AND playing a character I enjoy, and I came to the conclusion that Cloud was the road forward for me.

I was only further validated in that conclusion by the difference in how well my Robin did vs. Nairo and how my Cloud did Game 2 at GOML. Yeah, I might have gotten oddshot'd on my second stock, but I was keeping it even until that happened, whereas my Robin struggled and stayed in disadvantage state practically the whole match.

TL;DR: Pick a top tier, but also make sure you enjoy them!
 

Trifroze

all is cheese, all is jank
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Cloud's top level results are better than Mario's, Mario just has a higher peak result and there are other conclusions to be made from that than Mario being amazing, such as Ally being amazing and not having to face Mario's worst matchups in his bracket. An ironic thing is also that a Cloud initially dropped Zero to losers, enabling Ally to get this peak result for Mario much more easily.

How a certain result was achieved matters more than the result itself. Suppose it's just easier to look at the surface and leave it at that every time, but there's nothing to learn from a number.
 

Nu~

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I want to clarify a couple of points since apparently I'm important enough to be a topic of discussion on my switch of characters.

The main thing I wanted to address is that I'm not switching to Cloud solely because he's good. Yes, he's clearly amazing. I personally think he's top 3 in the game with basically no real debate.

However, I am also switching to him because I find him fun as hell AND he's strong.

I have always played sword characters in virtually every game that I can do so. (I learned fighters on Brawl Marth, play Cloud/Robin/Corrin in this game, and play characters with sword-like disjoints in other fighters (Baiken in GG, Terumi in BB, etc) It is how I prefer to play (heavy zoning/spacing), and Cloud provides me very satisfying gameplay in addition to being very strong. Its for that reason that I simply CAN'T switch to another character. I can't play non-sword characters. That's why I wouldn't switch to 'any other top tier'.

THAT SAID, I would not switch to Cloud if I did not enjoy him. I fully believe in order to realize one's potential with a character they must have a passion for playing that character, as that is what drives them to come up with new and creative solutions and gameplay styles. Playing a character without the passion to do so results in a cookie-cutter gameplay style that will plateau at a point. You saw this with a lot of average MK players in Brawl.

I enjoy Cloud a lot, Cloud is amazing, and that's why I'm choosing to main him.

Further, to clarify on where I stand on Corrin, since I only briefly touched on that in my Twitter post:

When I say I would be playing Corrin/Robin if Cloud didn't exist, what I meant by that is that I as a competitive player need to carefully consider how thin I am spreading my efforts in order to maximize inputted time to outputted results.

After Genesis, when Corrin released, I went into a bit of an exploratory period where I was playing Robin, Corrin, and Cloud in roughly equal parts. I was trying to decide who I wanted to play in what matchups. I enjoy all 3 characters. I am skilled with all 3 characters. However, as I moved towards GOML, I found myself gravitating toward Cloud the most strongly out of the 3.

There are a number of reasons for this, but ease of use and better matchups would be the primary two. I think Corrin is fairly technical and unorthodox in how she's got to use all of her tools, whereas Cloud is a much more straightforward character. Corrin also still struggles somewhat (at least IMO) with some of the matchups that are the specific reason I am moving away from Robin (Diddy most notably, somewhat ZSS).

So in making the decision between Cloud and Corrin to focus on, I went with the one I thought was stronger and would provide me with better results. I think both are strong characters, but my goal was to find a sweetspot on playing to win AND playing a character I enjoy, and I came to the conclusion that Cloud was the road forward for me.

I was only further validated in that conclusion by the difference in how well my Robin did vs. Nairo and how my Cloud did Game 2 at GOML. Yeah, I might have gotten oddshot'd on my second stock, but I was keeping it even until that happened, whereas my Robin struggled and stayed in disadvantage state practically the whole match.

TL;DR: Pick a top tier, but also make sure you enjoy them!
Now this is a philosophy I fully agree with.

Happy to see that you were able to find that happy medium my man!
 

TheHypnotoad

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 28, 2015
Messages
615
I want to clarify a couple of points since apparently I'm important enough to be a topic of discussion on my switch of characters.

The main thing I wanted to address is that I'm not switching to Cloud solely because he's good. Yes, he's clearly amazing. I personally think he's top 3 in the game with basically no real debate.

However, I am also switching to him because I find him fun as hell AND he's strong.

I have always played sword characters in virtually every game that I can do so. (I learned fighters on Brawl Marth, play Cloud/Robin/Corrin in this game, and play characters with sword-like disjoints in other fighters (Baiken in GG, Terumi in BB, etc) It is how I prefer to play (heavy zoning/spacing), and Cloud provides me very satisfying gameplay in addition to being very strong. Its for that reason that I simply CAN'T switch to another character. I can't play non-sword characters. That's why I wouldn't switch to 'any other top tier'.

THAT SAID, I would not switch to Cloud if I did not enjoy him. I fully believe in order to realize one's potential with a character they must have a passion for playing that character, as that is what drives them to come up with new and creative solutions and gameplay styles. Playing a character without the passion to do so results in a cookie-cutter gameplay style that will plateau at a point. You saw this with a lot of average MK players in Brawl.

I enjoy Cloud a lot, Cloud is amazing, and that's why I'm choosing to main him.

Further, to clarify on where I stand on Corrin, since I only briefly touched on that in my Twitter post:

When I say I would be playing Corrin/Robin if Cloud didn't exist, what I meant by that is that I as a competitive player need to carefully consider how thin I am spreading my efforts in order to maximize inputted time to outputted results.

After Genesis, when Corrin released, I went into a bit of an exploratory period where I was playing Robin, Corrin, and Cloud in roughly equal parts. I was trying to decide who I wanted to play in what matchups. I enjoy all 3 characters. I am skilled with all 3 characters. However, as I moved towards GOML, I found myself gravitating toward Cloud the most strongly out of the 3.

There are a number of reasons for this, but ease of use and better matchups would be the primary two. I think Corrin is fairly technical and unorthodox in how she's got to use all of her tools, whereas Cloud is a much more straightforward character. Corrin also still struggles somewhat (at least IMO) with some of the matchups that are the specific reason I am moving away from Robin (Diddy most notably, somewhat ZSS).

So in making the decision between Cloud and Corrin to focus on, I went with the one I thought was stronger and would provide me with better results. I think both are strong characters, but my goal was to find a sweetspot on playing to win AND playing a character I enjoy, and I came to the conclusion that Cloud was the road forward for me.

I was only further validated in that conclusion by the difference in how well my Robin did vs. Nairo and how my Cloud did Game 2 at GOML. Yeah, I might have gotten oddshot'd on my second stock, but I was keeping it even until that happened, whereas my Robin struggled and stayed in disadvantage state practically the whole match.

TL;DR: Pick a top tier, but also make sure you enjoy them!
Not gonna lie, when I heard you were dropping Robin I felt, to be quite frank, betrayed. But I know that you will obviously place better as a solo Cloud main than as a solo Robin main, so I wish you the best of luck in the future as a Cloud main.
 
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Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
Joined
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Halifax, Nova Scotia
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Raziek
3DS FC
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Not gonna lie, when I heard you were dropping Robin I felt, to be quite frank, betrayed. But I know that you will obviously place better as a solo Cloud main than as a solo Robin main, so I wish you the best of luck in the future as a Cloud main.
As I mentioned in the post, this is part of what made that decision so hard to make.

One further point to clarify:

I'm not solo Cloud. I still use Robin for some matchups out of preference or to deal with certain playstyles. I still enjoy using her (and do so in bracket) against Ryu, DK, Fox... probably a few others I could find as well.

She's not gone for good, just shelved against most of the relevant meta threats at the moment.
 
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L9999

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 15, 2014
Messages
2,634
Location
the attic I call Magicant
3DS FC
3780-9480-2428
Weekend results.

Character scores, updated:

Top 16, Weighted
Sheik: 172.5
Cloud: 167
Diddy Kong: 152.5
Fox: 108.5
Mario: 103.5
Sonic: 99
Zero Suit Samus: 83.5
Rosalina & Luma: 83.5
Bayonetta: 64.5
Ryu: 53
Marth: 53
Meta Knight: 49.5
Pikachu: 48
Peach: 47
Captain Falcon: 46.5
Corrin: 39.5
Donkey Kong: 36
Greninja: 35.5
R.O.B: 35.5
Ness: 34
Toon Link: 30.5
Luigi: 30
Bowser: 29.5
Duck Hunt: 26.5
Villager: 26
Yoshi: 26
Lucario: 25.5
Little Mac: 25
Mewtwo: 24
Pit: 23
Ike: 21.5
Robin: 21
Lucas: 18
Olimar: 14
Mega Man: 13
King Dedede: 13
Pac-Man: 11
Wii Fit Trainer: 9
Mr. Game & Watch: 9
Palutena: 8
Wario: 8
Link: 8
Bowser Jr.: 7
Kirby: 5
Shulk: 5
Mii Brawler: 4
Falco: 2.5
Zelda: 2
So, the only ones from the cast that didn't make it to top 16s this weekend were :4darkpit::4drmario::4miigun::4miisword::4jigglypuff::4ganondorf::4charizard::4feroy:. What an unpredictable outcome. Also, Das Koopa Das Koopa , Breakout III had free Mii right?

Really?
I thought it was because Female Corrin's cringy voice makes children cry and depopulates cities :troll:
*English* FE voice acting has always been corny and cringeworthy so its nothing new.
 
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Mr. Johan

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 9, 2009
Messages
5,579
Location
Edmond, OK
NNID
Sonicboom93
Male Corrin has the Christmas alt with the green armor/skin and the red cape, so it's automatically superior.

Speaking of which, Corrin Dair. You can shield the first hit of Dair and then just let go of the shield button from there. The hits come out so fast that they keep hitting before the shieldstun is complete. So a savvy player could get the powershield on the first hit, drop the shield button as the move continues, and be ready to punish on the first frame possible instead of allowing for human error to delay the shield drop.

Are there any other moves that can be fought against in this way? Yoshi Dair? Wii Fit Nair? Pit Nair? Or do the hits come out just slow enough to sneak in between shieldstun's end?
 
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Shady Shaymin

Smash Journeyman
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Jan 29, 2016
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492
Location
New York
3DS FC
4098-3217-2048
It appears that in an effort to highlight my gripes with a certain character, I blatantly undersold some aspects of another. I still maintain that Cloud is more of an issue than Mario because of metagame prevalence, matchups, and overall more jank in his moveset, but I apologize for selling Mario's ground game short to make Cloud seem even more godly by comparison.

In other news, Yoshi made it to 4 of the 7 top 13's from this weekend. That seems worth discussing.
 
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Kofu

Smash Master
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Messages
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The caffeine-free state
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3DS FC
1521-4492-7542
Weekend results.

Sumabato 11 (June 18th) (Japan) (181 Entrants) (Category 2)
1st: Komorikiri :4sonic:, :4cloud2:
2nd: Kie :4peach:
3rd: Ikep :4bayonetta:
4th: You3 :4duckhunt:
5th: Earth :4pit:, :4corrinf:
5th: Oisiitouhu :4greninja:
7th: Aki :4ryu:, :4sheik:
7th: FILIP :4mario:, :4cloud2:
9th: Gomamugitya :4lucario:
9th: Z-Tan :4cloud2:, :4sonic:
9th: Fuwa :4marth:
9th: Tatsutsuyo :4mario:
13th: Sylph :4sheik:
13th: Souther :4falcon:
13th: HIKARU :4dk:
13th: A :4myfriends:

Apex 2016 (June 17th-19th) (Tristate) (309 Entrants) (Category 2)
1st: Dabuz :rosalina:
2nd: VoiD :4sheik:,:4fox:
3rd: Nietono :4diddy:, :4cloud2:
4th: Mew2King :4cloud:
5th: Supergirlkels :4sonic:
5th: Marss :4zss:
7th: Tweek :4cloud2:
7th: James :4cloud2:, :4diddy:
9th: The Great Gonzales :4ness:
9th: Umeki :4peach:
9th: RAIN :4cloud2:
9th: Mr. E :4marth:
13th: Day :4lucario:
13th: Pugwest :4marth:
13th: 6WX :4sonic:
13th: Raptor :4yoshi:

Low Tier City 4 (June 18th-19th) (South) (317 Entrants) (Category 2)
1st: ZeRo :4diddy:
2nd: Nairo :4zss:
3rd: Hyuga :4tlink:
4th: Cosmos :4corrinf:
5th: ESAM :4pikachu:, :4corrinf: (:4corrin:?
)
5th: Mook :4fox:, :4pikachu:
7th: P2P with Gibus :4greninja:, :4lucario:
7th: DKWill :4dk:
9th: Illusion. :4greninja:
9th: MVD :4diddy:
9th: FunCrazyFish :4wiifit:
9th: MJG :4villager:
13th: Mew^2 :4mewtwo:
13th: Jerm :4robinf:
13th: AeroLink :4bayonetta:
13th: ForbiddenOne :4pacman:


Smash Factor Prelude (June 18th) (Mexico) (85 Entrants) (Category 1)
1st: Mr. R :4sheik:
2nd: MK Leo :4marth:, :4cloud2:
3rd: Wonf :4sonic:, :4bayonetta:
4th: Pollo :4bowser:
5th: Klein :4ryu:
5th: Serge :4lucario:, :4cloud2:
7th: Javi :4sheik:, :4ness:
7th: Chag :4bayonetta:
9th: SF Lazh :4falcon:
9th: Elvis Park :4fox:
9th: SF Citi :4gaw:
9th: Cloudy :4cloud2:
13th: HY-And :4yoshi:
13th: CS Kaze :4falcon:
13th: Bryan Z :4sheik:, :4mario:, :4diddy:
13th: Manzano :4peach:


Breakout III (June 18th) (Midwest) (96 Entrants) (Category 1)
1st: Ally :4mario:, :4cloud2:
2nd: Rayquaza07 :rosalina:, :4bowser:
3rd: Seagull Joe :4sonic:
4th: Blacktwins :4cloud2:, :4mario:
5th: Miloni :4cloud2:
5th: Ryuga :4corrinf:
7th: Zinoto :4diddy:
7th: LOE1 :4littlemac:, :4diddy:
9th: Zyth :4miibrawl:, :4dk:
9th: GP Linus :4bowser:
9th: AoH Vanity :4gaw:
9th: GG Nom :4corrinf:
13th: Adorable Knight :4luigi:
13th: Ge0 :4diddy:
13th: FS Chris :4yoshi:
13th: Zidico :4link:


Smash at Church (June 18th) (West Coast) (108 Entrants) (Category 1)
1st: Aphro :4bayonetta:, :rosalina:
2nd: K9 :4sheik:
3rd: Charliedaking :4fox:
4th: ImHip :4olimar:, :4duckhunt:
5th: Rich Brown :4mewtwo:
5th: Aarvark :4villager:
7th: Not Last :4peach:
7th: Elegant :4luigi:
9th: S2H :4metaknight:
9th: E2C Chompy :4pit:
9th: Kiraflax :4pit:, :4rob:
9th: A2 Dynamo :4sheik:
13th: Ikez :4olimar:
13th: Linkedknight :4link:
13th: MastaMario :4mario:
13th: Eon Wave :4fox:

Emerald City III (June 18th) (Pacific Northwest) (103 Entrants) (Category 1)
1st: Captain L :4pikachu:
2nd: Locus :4ryu:
3rd: Big D :4dedede:, :4mario:, :4falcon:
4th: Firefly :4yoshi:
5th: Shinkou :4sheik:
5th: Konga :4dk:
7th: Big Boss :4peach:
7th: Ruff! :4mario:
9th: Yope :4sonic:
9th: Jamnt0ast :4rob:
9th: Len :4corrinf:, :4pit:
9th: Felix :4diddy:
13th: Locke :4megaman:
13th: FedvsRafa :4luigi:
13th: Disorient :4zss:
13th: Tsage :4link:

Character scores, updated:

Top 16, Weighted
Sheik: 172.5
Cloud: 167
Diddy Kong: 152.5
Fox: 108.5
Mario: 103.5
Sonic: 99
Zero Suit Samus: 83.5
Rosalina & Luma: 83.5
Bayonetta: 64.5
Ryu: 53
Marth: 53
Meta Knight: 49.5
Pikachu: 48
Peach: 47
Captain Falcon: 46.5
Corrin: 39.5
Donkey Kong: 36
Greninja: 35.5
R.O.B: 35.5
Ness: 34
Toon Link: 30.5
Luigi: 30
Bowser: 29.5
Duck Hunt: 26.5
Villager: 26
Yoshi: 26
Lucario: 25.5
Little Mac: 25
Mewtwo: 24
Pit: 23
Ike: 21.5
Robin: 21
Lucas: 18
Olimar: 14
Mega Man: 13
King Dedede: 13
Pac-Man: 11
Wii Fit Trainer: 9
Mr. Game & Watch: 9
Palutena: 8
Wario: 8
Link: 8
Bowser Jr.: 7
Kirby: 5
Shulk: 5
Mii Brawler: 4
Falco: 2.5
Zelda: 2
Do you or anyone else know anything about Citi and Vanity? Game & Watch mains are somewhat rare but they do exist and tend to get reasonable results.
 
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meticulousboy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 22, 2015
Messages
300
Location
New York, NY
NNID
gradius_16
3DS FC
1005-8934-0229
Every tilt bar utilt is virtually useless, or outclassed. In dtilt's case, the range and damage are inferior to jab, and the followup potential is outclassed by grab.
I'm assuming you've never seen the follow ups Ike can do after connecting his Down Tilt? His Down Tilt may be weaker in damage than the entire Jab, but his Down Tilt has more BKB. An angle of 80 degrees is nothing to sleep on, which, coincidentally, is the same angle as Mario's Down Tilt.
 

~Firefly~

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 4, 2009
Messages
5,193
Location
Going all-in with the grime
Weekend results.

Emerald City III (June 18th) (Pacific Northwest) (103 Entrants) (Category 1)
1st: Captain L :4pikachu:
2nd: Locus :4ryu:
3rd: Big D :4dedede:, :4mario:, :4falcon:
4th: Firefly :4yoshi:
5th: Shinkou :4sheik:
5th: Konga :4dk:
7th: Big Boss :4peach:
7th: Ruff! :4mario:
9th: Yope :4sonic:
9th: Jamnt0ast :4rob:
9th: Len :4corrinf:, :4pit:
9th: Felix :4diddy:
13th: Locke :4megaman:
13th: FedvsRafa :4luigi:
13th: Disorient :4zss:
13th: Tsage :4link:
Shinkou also used Lucina, and Ruff! also used Samus. Len doesn't use Corrin anymore (I think he was solo Pit for this tournament), but Disorient did (in addition to ZSS). Everything else is accurate, AFAIK
 

C0rvus

Pro Hands Catcher
Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Messages
1,554
Location
East Coast
Bayonetta is still a bit up there in the rankings. Nice to see. Still haven't a clue how good she is atm. Good enough I suppose. Her Diddy matchup is pretty depressing, so that doesn't bode too well for her.

Diddy is the best character in the game, btw. He also beats or goes even with Cloud. Not sure where Cloud beating him came from. Diddy's biggest obstacle is what? Rosalina? Even that match has been argued to be closer to even than once thought.
 

meticulousboy

Smash Journeyman
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Aug 22, 2015
Messages
300
Location
New York, NY
NNID
gradius_16
3DS FC
1005-8934-0229
I mean, I could do with usmash being less braindead.
I will assume you're bashing a childhood character of mine and intervene. What's braindead? The invincibility on Up Smash?
All opinions are respected here.
 
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Eugene Wang

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 11, 2016
Messages
148
My current understanding is overtuned = overpowered = braindead = broken. That is, all they do is express an opinion that someone thinks something is more powerful than it should be.

Not saying that the complaints are illegitimate, but please step carefully and review all the facts when you express such an opinion.
 
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Pyr

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
1,053
Location
Somewhere Green
Rather sure that Mario's Up-Smash isn't a real issue and isn't deserving of a nerf.

Fun fact: Luigi's Up-Smash is slightly stronger then Mario Up-Smash (since you should be reversing it to get the strong hit every time, as necessary). It has:

1 extra frame of invulnerability
Same FAF (40)
Same damage on the strong hit (14)*
Slightly different angle (110 vs 83)
Better BKB (35 vs 32)
Better KBG (98 vs 94)
Slightly more range

*again, should be jump-canceling the Up-Smash to reverse it to always hit the strong hit.

Have always found that interesting.
 

Ghostbone

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 20, 2010
Messages
4,665
Location
Australia
Mario's up-smash is the worst of the trio (luigi, mario, doc), both in hitboxes and kill power.

His run speed is by far the best though which is why it's more abusable.
 

Jams.

+15 Attack
Joined
Jul 10, 2009
Messages
542
Location
Calgary, AB
NNID
DumberChild
My current understanding is overtuned = overpowered = braindead = broken. That is, all they do is express an opinion that someone thinks something is more powerful than it should be.

Not saying that the complaints are illegitimate, but please step carefully and review all the facts when you express such an opinion.
To my understanding, overtuned means an option's stats or numbers are too high, but the move itself is not inherently broken. Overtuned options can be brought "in-line" simply by lowering some numbers on the move which are perceived to be obnoxious. For instance, Cloud's Limit Cross Slash is arguably (please no debates) overtuned in terms of the knockback on the move; the move can be easily balanced by lowering the BKB and/or the KBG.

The alternative to an overtuned option would be an option which is strong by design. For instance, all of the 'third jump' moves in this game (Sheik, ZSS, Diddy) offer a huge boon in disadvantage, which is intrinsic to the properties of the moves and not the numerical stats. Witch Twist is a good example of a move which is strong by design; regardless of how you touch the numbers on this move, it's still going to be extremely good. These kinds of moves require more thought in the balancing process in order to preserve the move's unique traits and feel.

Neither of these options make the move inherently problematic IMO, because powerful options add flavour to the game. However, excessively strong options can cause poor balance or a linear gameplay style, which does become problematic.
 
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meticulousboy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 22, 2015
Messages
300
Location
New York, NY
NNID
gradius_16
3DS FC
1005-8934-0229
Rather sure that Mario's Up-Smash isn't a real issue and isn't deserving of a nerf.

Fun fact: Luigi's Up-Smash is slightly stronger then Mario Up-Smash (since you should be reversing it to get the strong hit every time, as necessary). It has:

1 extra frame of invulnerability
Same FAF (40)
Same damage on the strong hit (14)*
Slightly different angle (110 vs 83)
Better BKB (35 vs 32)
Better KBG (98 vs 94)
Slightly more range

*again, should be jump-canceling the Up-Smash to reverse it to always hit the strong hit.

Have always found that interesting.
Just tested it. The stronger hit is location-based, not frame-based.
 
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