Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Djent]

is pretty bad, BUT WAIT! Here's a good one:

 

[Illusion.]

BigD (Canada)
El Bardo (Spain)

IDK if he's PR or not but whiteout is a Texas DDD that recently 2-0'd Trela in winners (he got the runback tho).

Whiteout is PR'd in his region, yes.

 

[L9999]

is pretty bad, BUT WAIT! Here's a good one:

What I can take from this match is that Charizard deals a lot of damage if he manages to touch the opponent, but if the opponent touches him, he is combo food and will take a lot of damage, but that builds up his rage so he can clutch it out with Up Smash. So, typical heavywieght stuff. I never saw anyone using Flamethrower like that, just throwing it out so the opponent tries to punish it, only to be popped up and be hit. And to land.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

And yet Palutena and Samus mains exist and do well.

Samus isn't really bad, just undertuned.

Palutena is almost entirely due to MU inexperience, especially without customs. How often do you even see 1111 Palus do exceptionally well?

Both also aren't large-bodied super-heavyweight fighters, either, so they're kind of irrelevant to Charizard's viability as he is.

 

[ARGHETH]

Palutena is almost entirely due to MU inexperience, especially without customs. How often do you even see 1111 Palus do exceptionally well?

Uhh
Every tournament she places in since EVO?
Almost no tournaments run customs these days.

Both also aren't large-bodied super-heavyweight fighters, either, so they're kind of irrelevant to Charizard's viability as he is.

The argument was that Charizard's seen as bad, which causes a cycle of no results. Palutena and Samus, for a while, were seen as bottom tier but they got results regardless.

 

[C0rvus]

What results does Charizard have, though? Serious question. Palutena and Samus definitely come up in top 16s far more often than Zard. The character is barely a presence in tournament in my experience. The character comes up in the same breath as those like Roy and Falco. Thinking he's mid tier has no precedent.

 

[Y2Kay]

is weird.

His player base is crippling small, and he's fundamentally a bad character.

But . . . I don't think he's bottom tier.

I think Charizard has some good tools that could allow him to make a small revolution like the low tiers being referred to.

His pressure at the Ledge is very good. Down smash, up tilt, up smash, rock smash, can all cover ledge options and make it a nightmare to return to the ledge. I'm not surprised Daiki lost at all to Azteca (?), considering how poor Mewtwo's ledge snap and ledge get up options. This is just one example.

I see very few Charizard players utilize this, though. One example of a good Charizard is Sharpy.

Here is a link to his matches against DKWill.

https://www.twitch.tv/dkwill/v/72052278

They played around fifty games, and Sharpy had solid lead on him (I forget the specific number). They agreed the match up was 55:45 in Charizard's favor.

I feel most Zard players try to play him like he's Lizard Ganon when he isn't. If more Charizard players utilized his strengths better, he would get the results he needs. I truly believe this character is better than most think.

 

[HeavyLobster]

What I can take from this match is that Charizard deals a lot of damage if he manages to touch the opponent, but if the opponent touches him, he is combo food and will take a lot of damage, but that builds up his rage so he can clutch it out with Up Smash. So, typical heavywieght stuff. I never saw anyone using Flamethrower like that, just throwing it out so the opponent tries to punish it, only to be popped up and be hit. And to land.

Basically Zard's problem is a lack of safe pokes. Even D3 and Dorf have safer options. Bair, Nair, and Flamethrower are sometimes usable, but are generally less reliable than the tools other heavies have. His grab combos also are weak compared to DK/Bowser, though his great juggle tools somewhat alleviate this. Zard's advantage state relies less on guaranteed combos than using his mobility and pressure tools to exploit positional advantages. His disadvantage state overall isn't good, but he at least has a decent recovery to help him hang around a while. If he actually had any real approach options he'd be a respectable character, but right now he can't do much in neutral except for walling out bad characters.

 

[Y2Kay]

We moved on from Cloud, but there is a little tidbit about him I would like to share.

Ninjalink was analyzing Apex 2016, and he said that Cloud players always do one of two things when he jumps . . .

1. auto cancel Neutral Air
2. Double Jump Down air

When I watched Mew2King's play against SuperGirlKels, this was definitely the case, and Kels was never consistently punishing him for doing this. Perhaps you guys have been letting Cloud players get away with this as well.

 

[meticulousboy]

We moved on from Cloud, but there is a little tidbit about him I would like to share.

Ninjalink was analyzing Apex 2016, and he said that Cloud players always do one of two things when he jumps . . .

1. auto cancel Neutral Air
2. Double Jump Down air

When I watched Mew2King's play against SuperGirlKels, this was definitely the case, and Kels was never consistently punishing him for doing this. Perhaps you guys have been letting Cloud players get away with this as well.

I'm not going to let a Cloud player hit me with Down Air. That move seems to be the answer to any opponent below him. The only time one should have gotten hit by his Dair is offstage.

 

[Jona Bon Boa]

I'm pretty sure zard has the lowest player base in the game excluding miis. That's why I believe he never gets any real notable results. Nobody likes this character. he isn't like ganon who has a pretty decent sized following that started ever since melee despite being low tier in this game. And with the popular beliefs of him being bad, it prevents more people from picking him up. It prevents people from becoming character loyalist to him. He's never had a fanbase that carried over in droves because he's only appeared in one other smash game in the form of pokemon trainer, another unpopular character in top level play. There isn't an exteremly notable player with this character either like how there is with Palutena and Little Mac. Their players proved that they can succeed in high/top level play using those characters which was inspiring to every person who mains those characters since it basically proved they can be succesful maining those characters.It doesn't help either that there are other characters with similar play styles of the same archetype that have much better results. I think this ultimately leads to a cycle that unfortunately will never stop unless zard mains start consistently placing well at notable events.

 

[verbatim]

I really don't buy into the "cycle of results". The mii's have a low playerbase/results because they are banned at most events, beyond that you really can't throw out "artificial differences" when a character's results are very much natural.

I don't think Charizard falls into a special category. The Pokemon fanbase is represented very prominently in the smash bros community.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I'm not going to let a Cloud player hit me with Down Air. That move seems to be the answer to any opponent below him. The only time one should have gotten hit by his Dair is offstage.

What does this mean

 

[Rizen]

A problem I see with Zard is even though he has good grabs and range, his head sticks forward with a massive hurtbox. It's like having a tail in front too. This lessens his disjoint, dash and reach advantages considerably. IMO Zard is bottom 10.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

So based on this current meta, I updated my current tier list ideas. Thoughts or questions?
Notes:
Order does matter for tiers, but I was very indecisive for the mid tier and lower. I personally feel that now this is more accurate than before.
Miis are assumed to have access to customs, guest mii size. If they were not allowed, expect brawler to plummet.

 

[Joey T.]

We moved on from Cloud, but there is a little tidbit about him I would like to share.

Ninjalink was analyzing Apex 2016, and he said that Cloud players always do one of two things when he jumps . . .

1. auto cancel Neutral Air
2. Double Jump Down air

When I watched Mew2King's play against SuperGirlKels, this was definitely the case, and Kels was never consistently punishing him for doing this. Perhaps you guys have been letting Cloud players get away with this as well.

It's true that they do that a lot, but isn't short hop bair a strong option for Cloud as well?

 

[DblCrest]

TCT~Phantom

Jiggs Tier
My sides XD

Your list makes me wonder about Bayonetta really. I'm sure she wouldn't have dropped that far.

 

[meticulousboy]

What does this mean

The hitbox is out for a long time. I found that it's best not to challenge Cloud even when he's above you. Isn't his Dair the most disjointed?

 

[Peppermint1201]

TCT~Phantom ROB should be moved from A to B. He loses to every character in your Top Tier (except for Diddy and Ryu) and to almost half of your A tier. Additionally, his results are not indicative of 'commonly seen at majors' or 'extremely powerful.'

 

[Shady Shaymin]

View attachment 110634

So based on this current meta, I updated my current tier list ideas. Thoughts or questions?
Notes:
Order does matter for tiers, but I was very indecisive for the mid tier and lower. I personally feel that now this is more accurate than before.
Miis are assumed to have access to customs, guest mii size. If they were not allowed, expect brawler to plummet.

That list seems very fair as far as the top two tiers are concerned. My only issue is with mewtwo's placement. I think it's very likely that he's top ten, but I don't think he belongs in the "consistently wins majors" tier. His rep outside of Abadango and a few others isn't amazing, and his weight gives much skepticism about his potential as a "that tier" character. If he starts consistently showing up in top 8's like Diddy, Cloud, or Fox, I will be convinced otherwise, but for right now I would say he's much more in line with your A tier description.

Be prepared for essays from mid and low tier mains on why their characters should be higher; this is where the water gets muddied and where character loyalty really stings for someone organizing 58 all pretty good characters into an orderly list. If I had to place anyone higher I'd say megaman could definitely make a case for sitting with the upper echelon of your high tier, while yoshi seems out of place up there.

 

[Y2Kay]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Ranai is back.

 

[Jehtt]

Pity. I actually really wanted to see what Shulk and Corrin could do outside of their region. Particularly since apparently one of Corrin's major results last weekend was due to them managing to only fight locals the whole way through so it kinda dilutes things? And Anti is always entertaining to watch.

Which one of them plays Shulk? Cosmos is a Corrin main and Trevonte is a Sheik main. Anti plays a ton of characters but I've never seen him play Shulk.

 

[Deathcarter]

View attachment 110634

So based on this current meta, I updated my current tier list ideas. Thoughts or questions?
Notes:
Order does matter for tiers, but I was very indecisive for the mid tier and lower. I personally feel that now this is more accurate than before.
Miis are assumed to have access to customs, guest mii size. If they were not allowed, expect brawler to plummet.

I have a problem with the naming conventions. High Tier B should be renamed Mid Tier and Mid Tier should be named Low Tier. Calling a tier High tier B implies that those characters are just below the top tiers in terms of viability which in regards to some like Robin, Wii Fit Trainer, and Pac-Man is just outright ridiculous and for others like Lucas and the Pits pretty unwarranted considering their lack of use outright. Also having all but 6 characters above low tier goes entirely against the concept of low tier. Characters like Link, Samus, Shulk, Falco, Dr. Mario, and Palutena do not appear to most people as being middle of the road in terms of power level amongst the roster.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Which one of them plays Shulk? Cosmos is a Corrin main and Trevonte is a Sheik main. Anti plays a ton of characters but I've never seen him play Shulk.

I thought Trevonte played Shulk. Probably got him mixed up with somebody else then.

 

[Kofu]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Ranai is back.

Wonder if he'll use a secondary at all. His Villager is amazing, but the Cloud MU is pretty miserable. If you can't get gimps it's very hard to finish stocks and Cloud doesn't have much trouble working against Villager's walling.

 

[nannerham]

I thought Trevonte played Shulk. Probably got him mixed up with somebody else then.

you're probably thinking of tremendo dude

 

[Deleted member 269706]

This may be a rather bold statement, but I'm going to argue that the format of our tier list isn't the most compatible with our meta as it stands. We're trying to emulate the tier list of a meta that is much more explored and understood. It's undeniable that we have so much to uncover. For a game like Melee, that's had it's meta developing for 15 years, this format makes sense. To us, it's only holding us back.

Mewtwo is a prime example; even after all of his buffs, many of us put him at the top of mid-tier, several would argue that he was lower, but a very few saw the potential in the character and placed him higher. We thought they were crazy. And it made sense, who was playing the character? Then Pound happens, Abadango wins, and suddenly everyone puts him as a top 15 character.

What happened next? People started playing Mewtwo. It wasn't because of the results, it's because we started calling him viable, because he rose in the tier list.

To reinforce this claim, look at Ness, Villager, Yoshi, and Pikachu. There's next to nothing in terms of results with these characters in the past few months, and yet so many people still use the characters. It's due to the idea that they're viable. Yes it was Abadango's performance that caused Mewtwo to jump in the tier list ultimately causing more people to play him, but had Pound never happened and we had all seen the potential in Mewtwo and we had placed him as a top 15 character, more people would have been playing him to begin with.

This wasn't the first time we were severely wrong about a character's placement, and it most certainly won't be the last. Within the past few months there's been a resurgence in interest in characters such as Marth, Mega Man, Greninja, Lucas, Bowser and DK. Hell, I've seen talk of Roy, and if I'm not mistaken @Thinkaman had a well constructed argument for DHD being better than we had considered him. As we see these characters rise in the tier list, we see them more frequently in a tournament environment. Surely patches played a role for some of these characters, but it wasn't the patches that really gave the characters the push, it was the players.

It is to say our tier list has had an unhealthy impact on our meta. So many of us refuse to play certain characters because they are what we like to call "bad". Thank God for the Japanese players who ignore our thoughts on the tiers. To think where Mewtwo, MegaMan, DHD, Wario, Peach, or Pac-Man (along with several others) would reside in the tier list without their players putting in the work and time to prove us wrong.

The problem with our tier list is that it is us trying to understand everything and quantify that information. As it's been proven, we do not know everything, not even close. We've had a great shift in thinking over the past few months. Allowing Pikachu, ZSS, Ness and Villager to drop from the pedestals we once held them on. Then again, there's so much we haven't seen from these characters, I wouldn't be surprised to see one of them rise up in the next few years.

I get it, we base so much off of results. But is that truly an efficient method to use when we've had the same player win all but, what, five tournaments that he's entered? We've seen so little. A more preferable system would take theory and potential into account. Oddly enough a few characters have this on their side; Yoshi is a fine example. Only one real high level player with mediocre results, and yet he's remained relevant in the list. Yet other characters like pre-Pound Mewtwo were ignored. Theory meant nothing until it was utilized.

No matter what, our list will never be perfect. But it can always be better. We have four billion characters in this game and it's only been around for so long. This top/high/mid/low/bottom system does nothing but push players to "high" characters and have us laugh at the low. Perhaps a top (top5/top10)/high (next best thing)/gatekeeper (on the border of good and great)/untapped potential (majority of the cast)/fatal flaw (self explanitory)/bottom (no redeeming qualities) format would be more beneficial until we've seen more from everyone. If I was new to this, and I saw someone listed my character as "untapped potential" rather than "low tier", I'd be much more apt to play them.

It's not just what you call the tier, it's how you see the characters. Results can only tell you so much.

--

Sorry if that didn't make any sense. Maybe it makes sense to no one but me. Just wanted to spit it out, see if anyone thinks similarly.

 

[money1246]

@Emblem Lord Two questions. Before the nerfs, you said no one needed to play Ryu while Bayo existed at the height of her powers. What about now? Also, you play Ryu and Cloud (so do I). What character beats both of those characters (before nerfs Bayo beat Ryu but not anymore)? I want to know in case I need to cover another matchup.

 

[ぱみゅ]

This may be a rather bold statement, but I'm going to argue that the format of our tier list isn't the most compatible with our meta as it stands. We're trying to emulate the tier list of a meta that is much more explored and understood. It's undeniable that we have so much to uncover. For a game like Melee, that's had it's meta developing for 15 years, this format makes sense. To us, it's only holding us back.

Mewtwo is a prime example; even after all of his buffs, many of us put him at the top of mid-tier, several would argue that he was lower, but a very few saw the potential in the character and placed him higher. We thought they were crazy. And it made sense, who was playing the character? Then Pound happens, Abadango wins, and suddenly everyone puts him as a top 15 character.

What happened next? People started playing Mewtwo. It wasn't because of the results, it's because we started calling him viable, because he rose in the tier list.

To reinforce this claim, look at Ness, Villager, Yoshi, and Pikachu. There's next to nothing in terms of results with these characters in the past few months, and yet so many people still use the characters. It's due to the idea that they're viable. Yes it was Abadango's performance that caused Mewtwo to jump in the tier list ultimately causing more people to play him, but had Pound never happened and we had all seen the potential in Mewtwo and we had placed him as a top 15 character, more people would have been playing him to begin with.

This wasn't the first time we were severely wrong about a character's placement, and it most certainly won't be the last. Within the past few months there's been a resurgence in interest in characters such as Marth, Mega Man, Greninja, Lucas, Bowser and DK. Hell, I've seen talk of Roy, and if I'm not mistaken @Thinkaman had a well constructed argument for DHD being better than we had considered him. As we see these characters rise in the tier list, we see them more frequently in a tournament environment. Surely patches played a role for some of these characters, but it wasn't the patches that really gave the characters the push, it was the players.

It is to say our tier list has had an unhealthy impact on our meta. So many of us refuse to play certain characters because they are what we like to call "bad". Thank God for the Japanese players who ignore our thoughts on the tiers. To think where Mewtwo, MegaMan, DHD, Wario, Peach, or Pac-Man (along with several others) would reside in the tier list without their players putting in the work and time to prove us wrong.

The problem with our tier list is that it is us trying to understand everything and quantify that information. As it's been proven, we do not know everything, not even close. We've had a great shift in thinking over the past few months. Allowing Pikachu, ZSS, Ness and Villager to drop from the pedestals we once held them on. Then again, there's so much we haven't seen from these characters, I wouldn't be surprised to see one of them rise up in the next few years.

I get it, we base so much off of results. But is that truly an efficient method to use when we've had the same player win all but, what, five tournaments that he's entered? We've seen so little. A more preferable system would take theory and potential into account. Oddly enough a few characters have this on their side; Yoshi is a fine example. Only one real high level player with mediocre results, and yet he's remained relevant in the list. Yet other characters like pre-Pound Mewtwo were ignored. Theory meant nothing until it was utilized.

No matter what, our list will never be perfect. But it can always be better. We have four billion characters in this game and it's only been around for so long. This top/high/mid/low/bottom system does nothing but push players to "high" characters and have us laugh at the low. Perhaps a top (top5/top10)/high (next best thing)/gatekeeper (on the border of good and great)/untapped potential (majority of the cast)/fatal flaw (self explanitory)/bottom (no redeeming qualities) format would be more beneficial until we've seen more from everyone. If I was new to this, and I saw someone listed my character as "untapped potential" rather than "low tier", I'd be much more apt to play them.

It's not just what you call the tier, it's how you see the characters. Results can only tell you so much.

--

Sorry if that didn't make any sense. Maybe it makes sense to no one but me. Just wanted to spit it out, see if anyone thinks similarly.

Tier list meta discussion. Be careful where you aim this argument to.

But of course we may be wrong about character placements. The meta is FAR from being solidified enough to place each and every character in a right place. It took Brawl almost THREE YEARS to realize Olimar was a top character.

 

[Djent]

@Rawkstar Pikachu has been getting respectable results since 1.1.5. I wouldn't quite lump him in with Yoshi, who was and is a mediocre character. Ness and Villager are still good; in fact the latter is very grateful for 1.1.6. Their best players just haven't turned up to anything. Hopefully with FOW and Shaky attending CEO/EVO and Ranai supposedly returning, this trend will change.

 

[De Wolfe]

Wonder if he'll use a secondary at all. His Villager is amazing, but the Cloud MU is pretty miserable. If you can't get gimps it's very hard to finish stocks and Cloud doesn't have much trouble working against Villager's walling.

Yeah Villager has pretty much completely fallen off the map recently, I reckon the rise of cloud has something to do with it. Has there been any tournament Villager play worth checking out recently?

 

[Nobie]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Ranai is back.

Uh, hate to burst your bubble, but all Ranai's saying is that there was an ad for an Under-18 Nico Nico Smash 4 tournament in an issue of V-Jump (a manga magazine).

 

[Blobface]

Uh, hate to burst your bubble, but all Ranai's saying is that there was an ad for an Under-18 Nico Nico Smash 4 tournament in an issue of V-Jump (a manga magazine).

Some of the comments seem to indicate he'll be at Evo though.

 

[Djent]

Rain mostly uses and . He still pulled out last Umebura to deal with Kame's Mega Man, so I don't think he's dropped her entirely either.

Uh, hate to burst your bubble, but all Ranai's saying is that there was an ad for an Under-18 Nico Nico Smash 4 tournament in an issue of V-Jump (a manga magazine).

That was my initial thought too...but look in the replies. Serge asks him if his next tournament is EVO and he says "yes." He also says he'll be teaming with Komorikiri again (!!).

 

[Nobie]

Rain mostly uses and . He still pulled out last Umebura to deal with Kame's Mega Man, so I don't think he's dropped her entirely either.

That was my initial thought too...but look in the replies. Serge asks him if his next tournament is EVO and he says "yes." He also says he'll be teaming with Komorikiri again (!!).

Oh, I thought it was known that Ranai was going to EVO.

Onto another topic, but I was thinking about how @Emblem Lord crticizes the Roy community for not using the character properly, and trying to fit him into the mold of "Sword Falcon." This makes me wonder if there are any other characters in Smash 4 that are being played "wrong."

Also, Roy's situation sort of reminds me of SFV Ken. Mind you, I don't play SFV so my ability to make this comparison is limited, but I've heard Ken described as a character that people assume is hard rushdown, but in fact Ken is actually more about patience and spacing with bursts of offense.

 

[Djent]

I didn't know Ranai was going to EVO. Embarrass

Logic is going vs. Umeki, who just SD'd early game 1.

**EDIT: 2-1 Umeki

 

[Yonder]

Rain just lost to Puppeh 2 - 0

Puppeh is only thirteen years old.

T H I R T E E N.

Why is it always a big deal when younger kids achieve a big feat? There are many kids who are accomplishing incredible things, akin to what an adult would. I don't think their age is a prominent factor to ever look at these days , they dump the same amount of time as an adult would into their chosen activity and get the same results as an adult too.

I don't now, tldr kids accomplishing feats doesn't make me anymore or less amazed by it just because of their age.

Not taking away from Puppeh at all, congrats. You're just as amazing as any other adult player there who has won matches.

 

[blackghost]

I thought Trevonte played Shulk. Probably got him mixed up with somebody else then.

there's a girl named soronei ( ithink thats her name) with a really good shulk in socal.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Why is it always a big deal when younger kids achieve a big feat? There are many kids who are accomplishing incredible things, akin to what an adult would. I don't think their age is a prominent factor to ever look at these days , they dump the same amount of time as an adult would into their chosen activity and get the same results as an adult too.

I don't now, tldr kids accomplishing feats doesn't make me anymore or less amazed by it just because of their age.

Not taking away from Puppeh at all, congrats. You're just as amazing as any other adult player there who has won matches.

I could not disagree more with you. Not only do children and pre adolescents tend to have inferior motor skills to men and women in their 20's, but they are much, much more emotionally vulnerable and easily discouraged than adults. For a 13 year old to come into a tournament against a professional player with the most technically challenging and mentally exhausting character to play well in the whole game, all while overcoming tournament nerves and not getting flustered by a riled up audience of people up to twice his age...is extremely impressive, and you are definitely underplaying this.

 

[Illuminose]

Another Upset Sova over Umeki >

This is Huge for Link

yes, because winning a close matchup against a lower top 20 character against a player with no matchup experience is a major breakthrough

this IS a cool result for link (top 8, 5th guaranteed) but let's not overblow it

as a side note what on earth even is this tournament, is smash 4 truly random?