Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[JustSomeScrub]

I could not disagree more with you. Not only do children and pre adolescents tend to have inferior motor skills to men and women in their 20's, but they are much, much more emotionally vulnerable and easily discouraged than adults. For a 13 year old to come into a tournament against a professional player with the most technically challenging and mentally exhausting character to play well in the whole game, all while overcoming tournament nerves and not getting flustered by a riled up audience of people up to twice his age...is extremely impressive, and you are definitely underplaying this.

Sheik is definitely not the most technically challenging character. Just because she has tech doesn't mean she relies on it to win. Basic/fundamentals Sheik goes a long way, look at Zero. Plus nearly all of Sheik's tech is not Sheik specific.

Kids learn faster and better than adults overall since they have less on their mind. They can focus better. It becomes harder to learn the older you get, not easier.

And I've seen kids in the Smash community be much more mature than 20+ adults who are known for raging after every loss. I don't think age is as much of a factor in keeping a cool head as you think. Otherwise we shouldn't have so many adult Smashers notorious for taking losses really badly.

 

[blackghost]

yes, because winning a close matchup against a lower top 20 character against a player with no matchup experience is a major breakthrough

this IS a cool result for link (top 8, 5th guaranteed) but let's not overblow it

as a side note what on earth even is this tournament, is smash 4 truly random?

its not random its a region that doesnt get much exposure. most regions have at least a few guys that will make a splash if you aren't familiar with them. thats whats going on right now. everyone was worried about the Japanese players and missed the semilocal killers.
on a side note prepatch bayo vs diddy was bad for bayo now its flat out terrible. pink vs angel is just banana zoning and grabs and theres nothing bayo can do about it.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

its not random its a region that doesnt get much exposure. most regions have at least a few guys that will make a splash if you aren't familiar with them. thats whats going on right now. everyone was worried about the Japanese players and missed the semilocal killers.
on a side note prepatch bayo vs diddy was bad for bayo now its flat out terrible. pink vs angel is just banana zoning and grabs and theres nothing bayo can do about it.

That set was 1-1 when it was Diddy vs Bayo. He went Lucas game 3.

If you're suggesting Bayo can't beat Diddy, that set is a terrible example.

 

[Ghostbone]

yes, because winning a close matchup against a lower top 20 character against a player with no matchup experience is a major breakthrough

this IS a cool result for link (top 8, 5th guaranteed) but let's not overblow it

as a side note what on earth even is this tournament, is smash 4 truly random?

I wouldn't say umeki has no link experience, he played vs the best link in Aus a few times while he was over here (sets went back and forth)

I think Link is just a hard matchup for Peach straight up lol

 

[blackghost]

That set was 1-1 when it was Diddy vs Bayo. He went Lucas game 3.

If you're suggesting Bayo can't beat Diddy, that set is a terrible example.

bayo's matchup vs diddy prepatch was horrible now she has no options unless diddy over extends or gets countered. if they play it smart and grab a lot there not much she can do.
why was this set a bad example? top 3 bayo vs top 15ish diddy?

 

[ARISTOS]

is good for Link.

Don't understand the Lylat start, nor why BlazingPasta then allowed Puppeh to strike him to FD game 1

 

[Jehtt]

there's a girl named soronei ( ithink thats her name) with a really good shulk in socal.

Soronie, and she's from NorCal

 

[Peppermint1201]

Here's a novel idea. Maybe Smash 4 isn't natively inconsistent as top players like to john on twitter. Maybe the favorites to win didn't know the matchup, or *gasp* maybe the up-and-comers are GOOD PLAYERS?!

 

[TheGlove]

bayo's matchup vs diddy prepatch was horrible now she has no options unless diddy over extends or gets countered. if they play it smart and grab a lot there not much she can do.
why was this set a bad example? top 3 bayo vs top 15ish diddy?

For a starter this part is sort of misleading. Pink Fresh may be a top 3 bayonetta, but that doesn't mean he's on a much higher skill level as a player than angel who has beaten him before. Like I remember someone posting that because mike kirby, the best kirby, couldn't beat void, who was around the third best shek at the time, the matchup couldn't be even. Im not arguing that the matchup is even, but using a not top fifty player being unable to beat a top 10 in the world player as evidence of matchups is kind of faulty.

I would agree that bayonetta, a punish based character, doesn't like fighting characters that can out neutral her effectively especially now that her lower average reward makes it difficult for her to make up for losing neutral repeatedly.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Here's a novel idea. Maybe Smash 4 isn't natively inconsistent as top players like to john on twitter. Maybe the favorites to win didn't know the matchup, or *gasp* maybe the up-and-comers are GOOD PLAYERS?!

Its both, but oriented more Towards the former since then you'll have to argue how good are these new players are. Tons of MUs to optimized and be aware of.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Man oh man. I'm gone for like 3-4 days and many tournaments happened (which I missed because I went to a Pokken tournament in which I placed 9th, when top 8 gets at LEAST $250, but that's for another time). I've noticed this trend that happens where the saltiest and most hollow of posts occur when a tournament is taking place. Please, don't follow the trend.

I'm happy that it returned to it's norm now, but just saying, the reason top players don't seem to go on smash boards or on this specific thread is because of the very reason highlighted above. On top of that, if we aren't making hollow posts with a top player's presence, we can become their biggest fan club which could be just as annoying.

Don't mind me tho. I'm just a guy who makes observations, rarely posts here and gives extremely free likes cuz reasons.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Also lol at the fact that just because you guys use this site means you're the top 1% of players........(¬‿¬)

 

[Rizen]

I wouldn't say umeki has no link experience, he played vs the best link in Aus a few times while he was over here (sets went back and forth)

I think Link is just a hard matchup for Peach straight up lol

http://puu.sh/poNYW/d118c45a39.jpg
Cat has it as 45/55 but imo it's even. has a blind spot 45 degrees above/in front of him that Peach's float exploits well. Link's Jab is too low and Ftilt is frame 14 so Link has to pivot Ftilt or retreat somehow. If Link can set up, he has B-rang, Zair, Fair etc that suck for Peach but she wrecks once she breaches his defenses. Approaching becomes a bait and punish contest.

 

[LancerStaff]

Also lol at the fact that just because you guys use this site means you're the top 1% of players........(¬‿¬)

Simple math dude...

Wether or not it actually means anything is another story, however.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Johnny had insane conversion and some pretty crazy normals though. Like...he had OP stuff even tho he was low tier. All GG chars have at least a few OP tools and can force you to play their game some how in certain situations.

How the **** is Ganon going to force you to do anything?

Sakurai gets off his duff and finally gives the Warlock King a ****ing projectile instead of a garbage punch.

 

[TheGlove]

Well for all you charizard enthusiasts out there, I found this

This matchup chart is brought to us by Draquaza, the "best charizard" from zero's best of each character list. While this thread is normally tired of match up charts I feel like this one is useful to the discussion. Do you zards think that this matchup spread is accurate, and if so does this really validate a claim to mid tier? If this is correct zard loses to basically all the highish tier characters bar and other relatively relevant characters

Loosing -2 to mario and diddy is not a good look for bracket luck considering their popularity

Edit: worth noting we dont know exactly what a -2 means to draquaza so take this with a grain of salt as it might be similar to wills matchup chart where he thought -3's were still doable

 

[blackghost]

For a starter this part is sort of misleading. Pink Fresh may be a top 3 bayonetta, but that doesn't mean he's on a much higher skill level as a player than angel who has beaten him before. Like I remember someone posting that because mike kirby, the best kirby, couldn't beat void, who was around the third best shek at the time, the matchup couldn't be even. Im not arguing that the matchup is even, but using a not top fifty player being unable to beat a top 10 in the world player as evidence of matchups is kind of faulty.

I would agree that bayonetta, a punish based character, doesn't like fighting characters that can out neutral her effectively especially now that her lower average reward makes it difficult for her to make up for losing neutral repeatedly.

its actually slightly worse than that. bayo loses neutral AFTER almost every combo due to landing lag. its hard to always get an edge gaurd in place when you are recovering and with constant lag a bayo player must consistenlt reset to neutral which she is awful at. its an interesting dynamic the character has to go through been true since she was released only now her hits only lead to reward if your opponent is incapable of being defensive.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Simple math dude...

Wether or not it actually means anything is another story, however.

What math homie? As of March 2016, there has been approximately 4.8 mil copies of this game sold. There are 234,000 members on this site not including non registered lurkers. I assume not ALL members are somehow associated with this title, but because I can't discern, I will take the raw number. If that is the case, we are like the 4% of smashers. Whoop-dee-doo.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

What math homie? As of March 2016, there has been approximately 4.8 mil copies of this game sold. There are 234,000 members on this site not including non registered lurkers. I assume not ALL members are somehow associated with this title, but because I can't discern, I will take the raw number. If that is the case, we are like the 4% of smashers. Whoop-dee-doo.

You are ignoring the 3DS version. That's 8 million more sales right there for a total of 12 million+.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Sheik is definitely not the most technically challenging character. Just because she has tech doesn't mean she relies on it to win. Basic/fundamentals Sheik goes a long way, look at Zero. Plus nearly all of Sheik's tech is not Sheik specific.

Kids learn faster and better than adults overall since they have less on their mind. They can focus better. It becomes harder to learn the older you get, not easier.

And I've seen kids in the Smash community be much more mature than 20+ adults who are known for raging after every loss. I don't think age is as much of a factor in keeping a cool head as you think. Otherwise we shouldn't have so many adult Smashers notorious for taking losses really badly.

I want to pick this apart and actually reply in-depth so I don't get warned, but your previous posts tell me that'd be a waste of time. All I can say is that you somehow managed to make every single one of your sentences wrong in some way.

 

[arbustopachon]

Personally i dont see how zard can beat megaman, pacman and duck hunt. Those 3 characters can zone out zard so hard is sad.

I also don't see how does he lose to luigi, Zard can reliably keep luigi out with his jab and tilts and abuse his bad mobiliy.

Also i don't see either how can Zard be +2 against lucina nor how does he beat marth...

 

[JustSomeScrub]

I want to pick this apart and actually reply in-depth so I don't get warned, but your previous posts tell me that'd be a waste of time. All I can say is that you somehow managed to make every single one of your sentences wrong in some way.

Sheik is not technical. End of story. Are you aware just about every character can perfect pivot? That several characters can B-reverse? Or more importantly, that Sheik doesn't rely on these things to win? But nah you saw Sheik do perfect pivot extenders once or twice and now she's the most technical character ever? Give me a break.

And adults rage and get in their own heads all the time in the Smash community. To suggest that's something that would only happen to kids is absurd.

Edit:

Stating I'm wrong then failing to give a counter argument just shows you're a coward.

Though it's pretty clear you're just butthurt I called out your main.

 

[Y2Kay]

doesn't beat . . . . . .

Charizard's ledge pressure is very formidable against Mewtwo. Mewtwo's ledge get up options aren't very good, and Charizard is really good at taking advantage of this.

But . . . .

Charizard's neutral is not potent enought to consistently put Mewtwo in this position. Zard's lack of safety is very troublesome when Mewtwo has such vicious punishes.

It's not that bad though. It's probably 55:45 in Mewtwo's favor. Possibly even. But I seriously doubt Mewtwo loses.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Spoiler: Upsets

http://i.imgur.com/sXY3cop.png

So from rain and umeki bustering out leads to new debate about 3 stocks.
Frankly it's just mdva over performing and japan being inconsistent as usual.

As far as Smash 4 goes I don't think a single top player has not netted bad losses outside of Zero. It's not just Japan.

Ally and Void recently lost to GnW. Vinnie and Nairo recently lost to Bowser. And the list goes on.

 

[TheGlove]

As far as Smash 4 goes I don't think a single top player has not netted bad losses outside of Zero. It's not just Japan.

Ally and Void recently lost to GnW. Vinnie and Nairo recently lost to Bowser. And the list goes on.

Weirdly enough some top players were discussing just this on twitter recently and Mr R is apparently the only other one they agreed on with his worst loss being DKWill at smashcon right after the big Dk buffs

 

[Man Li Gi]

You are ignoring the 3DS version. That's 8 million more sales right there for a total of 12 million+.

U right. I don't normally include the 3ds version because I have sentiments saying that "game" restricted content in the real full one. To me, it comes off as a glorified beta test.

 

[LancerStaff]

U right. I don't normally include the 3ds version because I have sentiments saying that "game" restricted content in the real full one. To me, it comes off as a glorified beta test.

What you think of the 3DS version is irrelevant though. Like, in every way imaginable.

 

[thehard]

Large focus on neutral + good character balance (meaning you'll both face a lot of unfamiliar MUs and have to be prepared for all kinds of playstyles) = can't ever get comfortable

And that is Smash 4

Top 8s always look the same at large tournaments, people don't care or want to try new things at locals. Frankly if people want to "blame" Smash 4 because never-practices-and-proud Ally loses to a good Game & Watch or something they should look at the bigger picture. And he still won the tournament. Wrath threw him off at that convention tournament, he came back and cleanly beat him in the rematch... there's been a lot of cases like this.

I've never seen anyone lose a set "because of rage". Ignoring weird BKB cases rage is inherently competitive because you can prepare for it, measure it, and the player who better takes advantage of it will have the upper hand.

Upsets have and will happen in EVERY Smash game. Did an ICs player in Melee not get 9th and take out several ranked players at his first ever major (Pound 2016)?

Those are my not very organized thoughts- Even after saying all that I still prefer 3 stocks though

 

[Quantumpen]

There are a few things contributing to the high results variance people observe:

a) 2- stock format. No question this is a huge factor, It's less adaptation time make variance widening mechanics like rage, random gimps, nice set-ups that work only due to unfamiliarity more likely to result in an upset.
b) Short set-formats. BO3 is a high variance format, especially in conjunction with 2-stock.
c) Comeback mechanics. Rage creates upsets, that's what it was designed to do and that's what it does. It is an anti-competitive mechanic.
d) The metagame is young, and diverse. patches and the early dominance of some characters mean most players have limited knowledge of the majority of the cast, which creates upset.
e) The game is accessible and has a very low skill floor. This means there are far more players capable of reaching a high level of competence quickly because there is no execution barrier keeping them out. The more people can play a game, the more players will reach all levels of skill. It's simply a lot easier (in terms of time investment) to be decent at Smash 4 than it is a game like melee. This isn't a bad thing, but it makes it much harder to be a "God"

 

[Man Li Gi]

What you think of the 3DS version is irrelevant though. Like, in every way imaginable.

I'm not saying my thoughts are important, never the argument. Opinions are stronger in numbers too. I want you think when was the last major tournament held by 3ds solely? Shouldn't that have some indication as to where the community as a majority feels about it? Many people seem either to be indifferent or just don't like it. It's a fact that the 3DS swallowed a lot of development time and took away content that was otherwise looked forward to. My thoughts do resonant with people's actions, so I guess by proxy, they are relevant in some capacity.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Large focus on neutral + good character balance (meaning you'll both face a lot of unfamiliar MUs and have to be prepared for all kinds of playstyles) = can't ever get comfortable

And that is Smash 4

Top 8s always look the same at large tournaments, people don't care or want to try new things at locals. Frankly if people want to "blame" Smash 4 because never-practices-and-proud Ally loses to a good Game & Watch or something they should look at the bigger picture. And he still won the tournament. Wrath threw him off at that convention tournament, he came back and cleanly beat him in the rematch... there's been a lot of cases like this.

I've never seen anyone lose a set "because of rage". Ignoring weird BKB cases rage is inherently competitive because you can prepare for it, measure it, and the player who better takes advantage of it will have the upper hand.

Upsets have and will happen in EVERY Smash game. Did an ICs player in Melee not get 9th and take out several ranked players at his first ever major (Pound 2016)?

Those are my not very organized thoughts- Even after saying all that I still prefer 3 stocks though

You've never seen people lose sets because of rage? How long have you been watching? Just a few weeks back, Void lost to Nairo, go ahead and watch how that set ended. Rage rewards you for losing, I don't see how that is inherently competitive.

Yes an unknown Icys player got 9th. And it was big news BECAUSE upsets are so rare in Melee. If it happened all the time like Smash 4, people wouldn't have thought much of it. So no, upsets happen significantly less in other Smash games, you can't just group Smash 4 with the rest.

And while that Icys beat good players, he didn't beat anyone considered top 6 in Melee, he actually got destroyed when he faced one of them. Whereas in Smash 4 top 6 calibur players lose to non-top players all the time. So it's not even remotely comparable.

 

[Das Koopa]

man, i wrote up a solid multi-paragraphs refutation to comparing Melee and Sm4sh upsets and this guy is still using the same talking points

tfw you get trolled

Anyway, Sova Unknown put un a valiant effort against Wadi before going down 1-2. Wadi shielded a lot and made it exceedingly difficult for Sova to ever get in.

 

[thehard]

The top Melee players have seen everything the game has to offer due to a decade of experience.

Smash 4 top players don't have the "luxury" of that yet.

When ZeRo, Nairo, Ally (S tier players) are on point they crush A tier players. When they're not they lose...That is a personal problem.

 

[Das Koopa]

I mean, the 2-stock format and rage definitely contribute to upsets, but it's bizarre to compare the two games when one has a decade of serious competitive establishment while the other has a year and a half.

 

[Aaron1997]

Ignore this

 

[TDK]

More Peach and Marth results. There's a point where I should stop pointing this out as it's becoming commonplace, but it's hype to see them attain results.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm not saying my thoughts are important, never the argument. Opinions are stronger in numbers too. I want you think when was the last major tournament held by 3ds solely? Shouldn't that have some indication as to where the community as a majority feels about it? Many people seem either to be indifferent or just don't like it. It's a fact that the 3DS swallowed a lot of development time and took away content that was otherwise looked forward to. My thoughts do resonant with people's actions, so I guess by proxy, they are relevant in some capacity.

We were never talking about what system majors were played on. Yeah Wii U is clearly better for tournaments but for average Joe Shmoe the 3DS version is better because they already had a 3DS. The main reason you're playing the game, the characters and how they interact, was effected little to none by having two games because they only had to do it once. If anything it was effected positively because they could expect greater returns for their effort because it's the same core being sold as two games, like the LoZ Oracle games, Pokemon, or Fates.

The 3DS version is approaching 2x the sales of Wii U. Obviously most of us are pretty happy with it regardless of what a few think.

 

[Das Koopa]

Marth is 10th in character score at 54 while Peach/Ryu are tied for 11th at 53 btw

 

[Jams.]

So I suppose they drew straws to determine who would stop sandbagging and defend Japan's honour after they found out, and Nietono got the job. :^)

Seriously though, his Diddy play was exquisite to watch. His gameplay seems to revolve more around Diddy's ledge traps rather than his juggles as he would often opt to throw the opponent off stage instead of go for a grab combo. His option coverage is exemplary though; being able to consistently grab regular get-up and then dash grab ledge roll on reaction, then shielding at the ledge means that the opponent can only jump, ensuring that they're still in a poor position even after successfully getting off the ledge. I'd like to see more characters and players apply this strategy, but it requires a very precise punish game and great reflexes.

Large focus on neutral + good character balance (meaning you'll both face a lot of unfamiliar MUs and have to be prepared for all kinds of playstyles) = can't ever get comfortable

Honestly, I feel like the focus on neutral in this game isn't that big, but I'm comparing it to Brawl which is dominated by the neutral game. That said, IMO a larger focus on neutral actually creates more consistent results instead of less consistent results. Neutral is where skill discrepancies really shine, especially in a game like Smash 4 where the punish game is fairly simple to execute. A great player will start to make adaptions, while a mediocre player will wonder why his game plan is suddenly much less effective game 2.

 

[Locke 06]

Honestly, I feel like the focus on neutral in this game isn't that big, but I'm comparing it to Brawl which is dominated by the neutral game. That said, IMO a larger focus on neutral actually creates more consistent results instead of less consistent results. Neutral is where skill discrepancies really shine, especially in a game like Smash 4 where the punish game is fairly simple to execute. A great player will start to make adaptions, while a mediocre player will wonder why his game plan is suddenly much less effective game 2.

Smash 4 is very strongly "positional advantage" based, rather than neutral. Follow-ups are simple, but keeping the opponent in a disadvantageous position constantly (or getting out!) is what makes a lot of good characters good.

A lot of Sheik's can do fthrow>FAir chain>BF, but then converting the ledge guard to more damage and positioning is where the best Sheik's lay.

Missing the 1f of vulnerability on neutral getup>PS>punish or missing a punish they normally hit because of inconsistent block advantage is how a lot of good players lose. That's a smash 4 exclusive.

Great players work around the game's technical barrier and are consistent with their meaty setups and know to respect moves when the punish may not be guaranteed.

 

[Man Li Gi]

We were never talking about what system majors were played on. Yeah Wii U is clearly better for tournaments but for average Joe Shmoe the 3DS version is better because they already had a 3DS. The main reason you're playing the game, the characters and how they interact, was effected little to none by having two games because they only had to do it once. If anything it was effected positively because they could expect greater returns for their effort because it's the same core being sold as two games, like the LoZ Oracle games, Pokemon, or Fates.

The 3DS version is approaching 2x the sales of Wii U. Obviously most of us are pretty happy with it regardless of what a few think.

Sakurai actually said he couldn't bring in the Ice Climbers in because the 3DS was lacking. I believe he said that Pikmin were reduced because of the limitations in AI. Pkmn trainer, Zss/Samus, Zelda/Sheik were stripped of transformations due to the 3DS lacking. Everything points to the 3DS being weak and restricted by its limitations. IIRC, there was a time Sakurai even said its like creating two different games.

I dunno who this "us", is you are referring to. Many of the same people who bought it for the 3DS seemed to have frustrations over getting for the 3DS only to find out the full version will be coming out mere 2 months after.

I wish I was Joe Shmoe, cuz I don't have a 3DS.


The main reason I was going to play this game was to play my previous mains and do well. Wolf was cut, Ike was bad on release, DK was passable.

So again, it's a business success, but communal building, kinda under what it could've been. Its good, but why settle for good when it could've been great?