Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Jams.]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Anyway do you think Nairo might consider taking his doubles cloud as a secondary.
At the same time with niento counterplay by diddy vs cloud is developing

With all this talk of pocket Cloud versus pocket Mario recently, is probably one of the matchups where Mario can serve better than Cloud. ZeRo's record versus top Marios is pretty bleak recently, and Nairo already has a Doc.

 

[Yonder]

Spoiler: Apex 2016

1. Dabuz
2. CLG Void
3. Nietono
4. FOX Mew2king
5. SuperGirlKels
5. Marss
7. James
7.Tweek

Spoiler: Low tier City

1.TSM ZeRo
2. Liquid Nairo
3. SF Hyuga
4. Cosmos
5.Mook
5. PG ESAM
7. DKWill
7. P2P with Gibus

So uh...this is the most specific character populated tourney result in recent time with Cloud being used by 50% of the placing people at Apex.

Will this trend grow in time? He takes minimal skill to use compared to the other best Sheik and Diddy. Safe to say he is far and away the best pocket in the game. Whether he is the best solo rep or not time will tell.

 

[Peppermint1201]

of course cloud will do well when many of the best players in attendance to a tournament just so happen to be cloud mains

no need for fire-and-brimstone warnings of the metagame's death

there was only one cloud-favorable upset prior to top 8 and that was james over mr e

if the 8 best players attending a tournament included zero, zinoto, and nietono, would it herald the end times where diddy rules the earth when they all made top 8?

 

[Illuminose]

@Aaron1997 Nietono didn't use Cloud, but he did use Sheik against Dabuz.

James used Luigi against 6WX and probably more earlier in bracket.


Speaking of Nietono, he is looking like a massive threat going into CEO and EVO for that matter. His development of Diddy between incredible movement, implementation of perfect pivots. unique mixups and follow-ups off dtilt and banana pressure, edgeguarding, and a new & improved spin on the classic Diddy ledge pressure are pretty insane. His winners quarters set showed enough that he's capable of beating Dabuz, and despite losing to Void kinda badly don't think that's undoable for him either. Losers run of Umeki -> Tweek -> Marss -> M2K before falling to Void was really impressive. I personally think he's the #2 Diddy right now, but that will take more data to say and CEO will be the real test of how Nietono stacks up.

 

[juddy96]

Spoiler: Quick Overview of Threats in Each Pool

A1: ZeRo , Raziek , Prince Ramen , dekillsage
A2: VoiD , Xaltis , Shel , Rango
A3: Falln , Mr. E , Kazu , Tachyon
A4: Zinoto , Master Raven , Snakeee , Mekos
A5: All Might , Trevonte , LingLing
B1: False , Ryo , Cosmos , JaK
B2: Rain , Purple Guy , Rich Brown , Ross
B3: Mr. R , Seibrik , Techei
B4: 6WX , Remzi , Z
B5: Dabuz , Karna , dyr , Sect
C1: Tweek , Tyroy , LordFrieza
C2: Trela , Jtails , Myran , TekNo
C3: Nietono , Ksev , Josh , Deven3000
C4: Larry Lurr , Day , IceArrow , VeXx
C5: Vinnie , Wrath , Keitaro
D1: Hyuga , Logic , S@nt (not sure I have 3rd seed right in this pool)
D2: MVD , C3PO , BigLou , CaptainZack
D3: Marss , Dath , Zephyr , Mr. Doom
D4: Fatality , Seagull Joe , Tremendo Dude
D5: ESAM , Pugwest , Colinies , Mister Eric
E1: ANTi , Wizzrobe , Samsora , Lade
E2: Ally , MJG , True Blue
E3: Nairo , JJRockets , Draquaza (not sure I have 3rd seed right in this pool)
E4: FOW , Saj , Kamicario , Eden , Eldin
E5: Abadango , TLTC , Mav , Syde7
E6: Mew2King , Angbad , Mook
F1: K9sbruce , NickRiddle , Dill , StreetShark
F2: NAKAT , Zenyou , Sol , KidG
F3: Umeki , DKWill , RiotLettuce
F4: ScAtt , DJ Jack , Acid , Leo Hart
F5: 8BitMan , Pink Fresh , EKING (not sure I have 3rd seed right in this pool)
F6: Shaky , Reflex (not sure who 3rd seed in this pool is, probably GDX or Captain Clutch)

This is decently accurate. I'll keep the Tier 7's out for now and just list the 1 Tier 10, 1 Tier 9, and 2 Tier 8's (they are randomized so it isnt a 3rd or a 4th seed, its a 3/4 seed.) Some things likely changed after we submitted the seeding, so this is just a rough idea

Spoiler: Quick Overview of Threats in Each Pool

A1: ZeRo , Raziek , Prince Ramen , dekillsage
A2: VoiD , Xaltis , Shel , Rango
A3: Falln , Mr. E , Tachyon , ThatGuy
A4: Zinoto , Master Raven , Mekos , The Forkies
A5: Trevonte , All Might , LingLing , Gadiel
B1: False , Ryo , Cosmos , JaK
B2: Rain , Rich Brown , Purple Guy , Ross
B3: Mr. R , Seibrik , Xeon , Techei
B4: 6WX , Remzi , Z (there isn't a 2nd tier 8 in this pool for whatever reason, probably scheduling related)
B5: Dabuz , Karna , dyr , Sect
C1: Tweek , Tyroy , LordFrieza (see B4)
C2: Trela , Myran , Jtails , TekNo
C3: Nietono , Ksev , Orcathehuman , Poltergust
C4: Larry Lurr , Day , IceArrow , VeXx
C5: Vinnie , Wrath , Keitaro , Cashmere
D1: Hyuga , Wormynugget (Josh) , S@nT , Jester , Vash (see B4 and reverse it)
D2: MVD , CaptainZack , C3PO , BigLou
D3: Marss , Dath , Zephyr , Mr. Doom
D4: Fatality , Seagull Joe , Waldo , Tremendo Dude
D5: ESAM , Pugwest , Mister Eric , Colinies
E1: ANTi , Samsora , Wizzrobe , Limbs
E2: Ally , MJG , True Blue , Player-3
E3: Nairo , JJRockets , Draquaza , RoguePenguin
E4: FOW , Kamicario , Saj , Eden
E5: Abadango , TLTC , Mav , Xmas
E6: Mew2King , Angbad , Mook , Brawlman1000
F1: K9sbruce , NickRiddle , Dill , StreetShark
F2: NAKAT , Zenyou , Sol , KidG
F3: Umeki , DKWill , RiotLettuce , Neos
F4: ScAtt , DJ Jack , Acid , Leo Heart
F5: Pink Fresh , 8BitMan , EKING , JDB!
F6: Shaky , Reflex , Mugi , Captain Clutch

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Y'know, after watching James vs. Mr. E last night and having some time to reflect, I'm pretty disgusted with Cloud. While watching, I realized Cloud was just better suited to handle the majority of the situations that the players found themselves in. And when I assessed it, it's not just Marth he trumps. It's every sword character.

With Cloud being so good, what's the point of even picking up a different swordsman? There is almost NO reason other than for gimmicks or out of character loyalty; both being highly foolish reasons if you are playing to win. Break it down and tell me I'm wrong.

Of all the swordies, Cloud is both the fastest runner and has the highest airspeed. He has the second fastest fall speed behind Roy.

When it comes to range, it's a huge toss up. I'm sure each swordsman wins in terms of some move (i.e. Corrin = best fsmash, Shulk = dsmash, Marth = uair, etc). What makes Cloud different is his massive sword and lingering hitboxes. The fact that his sword is so fat means it covers more space, and the lasting hitboxes means that extra coverage is out for more time. Other than nair, no other swordsman really has a longlasting hitbox that's practical in neutral.

And when it comes to damage output? When you look at each individual move, Ike generally wins. Now take followups and combos into account. I don't have to tell ya whose getting the most out of each hit, you already know. But do go look at the frame data yourself. There are several instances where Cloud's damage output is more than that of Marth's tipper. That's absurd, when a character who is rewarded for good fundamentals and spacing get less out of it than the $5.99 variant.

Now take all of that, and give him a projectile, two spikes on aerials, a 19% side B, great frame data, and Limit. He isn't fundamentally broken, he still has downsides, but these "weaknesses" that we keep hearing about are much more evident and effective on the other swordsman who suffer from them.

It's not even a question, Cloud is better than every swordsman in practically every field.

You see, I'm not upset with Cloud because he's too good or because he's "broken" or whatever it is that the masses are screaming, it's because if he remains untouched, the rest of the swordsman become more and more obsolete.

So tell me- if you're playing to win, what's the point in playing any other swordsman?

I've been thinking this for a while and this is so true.

Mr. E has been maining Marth since Brawl. Just imagine, putting in what, 8 years of competitive work into a character? And then losing to a freaking pocket Cloud at Apex? Absolutely disgusting.

He's better at spacing/zoning than all of them which is what sword characters are known for. He's also much better at juggling. He can actually force you to approach by charging limit. And he kills way earlier than any of them, even Ike outside of landing a lol Fsmash.

Perhaps Marth can go much more deep/aggressive offstage with edge guards, but aggressive edge guarding versus good players doesn't tend to work in most matchups in this game anyway. Stage control seems ideal. With Melee's engine I could see Marth having a significant advantage over Cloud in that area but not in this game.

So the question is what logical reason is there to not choose Cloud if you want to play a sword character?

 

[dakotaisgreat]

That's a good point. It's just upsetting that Cloud is just so much better than them. I remember a time where playing a sword character made you in the minority.

Man, I wish Sakurai and Co would just redesign every non DLC character in a way that would make them as potent as the payed chars.

You say that as if Roy isn't a character that comes with two superior, free versions of him in the game. Not to mention mid tier lucas vs high tier Ness. Also Bayonetta being the most nerfed character in the game by far. She's still good and viable simply because she was just that god damn strong on release, but its clear they were not in any way alright with her staying that way and they have shown it.

This game has a lot of faults but I will defend its DLC practices. Would you prefer all the DLC characters to just be arbitrarily bad?

 

[Das Koopa]

remember that all 3 Clouds came in from Loser's bracket and that 2 of them got 7th

if people weren't panicking when there were like 4 Sheiks in top 4 at Paragon(?) then this is way more more tame

 

[JustSomeScrub]

You say that as if Roy isn't a character that comes with two superior, free versions of him in the game. Not to mention mid tier lucas vs high tier Ness. Also Bayonetta being the most nerfed character in the game by far. She's still good and viable simply because she was just that god damn strong on release, but its clear they were not in any way alright with her staying that way and they have shown it.

This game has a lot of faults but I will defend its DLC practices. Would you prefer all the DLC characters to just be arbitrarily bad?

Doesn't change the fact that Cloud is a DLC character and easily top 3 in the game. Ryu by many top player accounts is also potentially top 3 in the game. That would be 2 out of 3 best characters in the game being DLC in a roster of 55.

Mewtwo is already considered to be top 10 material AFAIK.

Corrin doesn't have the consistent results yet but I suspect he'll be top 10 down the line as well (he did just get top 4 at LTC). But for now I guess I can't justify saying that so I wont.

And how is Ness high tier anymore? He seriously lacks results for that claim and loses very solidly to pretty much all the top tiers. To suggest Ness invalidates Lucas when neither have consistently great results is a bit silly. If multiple regions had constant Ness in top 8 you might have a point.

DLC characters don't have to be bad but they shouldn't be so good with so little effort to the point where POCKET Clouds are beating established high/top level players.

 

[Chalice]

This game has a lot of faults but I will defend its DLC practices. Would you prefer all the DLC characters to just be arbitrarily bad?

Well, I mean, Square Enix probably paid/received good money to have one of their star characters be godlike in order to make themselves look good.

Also, Sakurai is good at making sure stuff stays true to the character from their home series. is a good example. Only problem is when you do that for since he's supposed to be a supersoldier and even said in an interview that, "He's the perfect fighter."

So if he ain't getting more nerfs, then the only reasons I can see is because of Square Enix and staying true to his character.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

You say that as if Roy isn't a character that comes with two superior, free versions of him in the game. Not to mention mid tier lucas vs high tier Ness. Also Bayonetta being the most nerfed character in the game by far. She's still good and viable simply because she was just that god damn strong on release, but its clear they were not in any way alright with her staying that way and they have shown it.

That's true, but the difference here is that instead of one character being invalidated by another (i.e. Fox > Falco, Ness > Lucas, Falcon > Ganon, etc.) Cloud is invalidating an entire archetype.

Some characters are going to be better than others. I understand that. What I don't understand is why as a developer you would choose to give one character everything. For instance, choosing between Ike and Marth. One one hand you have a very poweful character, but at the cost of speed. On the other hand, Marth sacrifices power for mobility. Add Roy into the equation. He gives up range and good sweetspots in exchange for speed and throw combos. Then Shulk, slightly worse frame data for more range. Link gives up speed and trades it for projectiles.

It should be a trade off. Look at some of the rush-down characters, some have speed, some have range, some have throw combos, some have better recoveries. No one rush-down character invalidates the rest of the cast and at the end of the day if you want to play a rush-down, you have SEVERAL options. You don't have that with the swordsmen.

Do you see what I'm getting at? Before Cloud, each swordsman had something unique to offer. While some were better than others, very few characters straight up invalidated others because they still had different attributes to offer.

This game has a lot of faults but I will defend its DLC practices. Would you prefer all the DLC characters to just be arbitrarily bad?

And to answer your question...yes. I would prefer the DLC characters to be worse. Because what we have now are several well built characters with fundamental advantages.

Even without TRSK and FA, Ryu is a fine character. He has great aerials, a nice combo game, a shield breaker, a spike, and more moves. Throw in his specialties and he has the ability to punish reads (most Smash attacks become very risky with FA in the picture), escape combos (FA and TRSK have f1 invincibility), and end stocks at 70%.

Cloud has great frame data, amazing range, juggling capabilities, and a sick neutral. Throw in Limit and he becomes more mobile, has a way to force approaches (while charging), creates an intimidation factor (much like a Samus Charge Shot), and effectively an extra Smash Attack that deals 26% and comes out at the speed of a tilt.

Bayonetta without combos...is still a great character. She has great projectiles, disjointed hitboxes, low landing lag, auto-linking moves, the best counter in the game, and great dodges that act as combo breakers. But then after an opening in neutral she can wrack up damage much more reliably and effectively than several other characters, even if she only gets a hit or two out of it, not to mention some of the best edge-guarding and recovery in the game.

None of the other DLC characters have anything else worth mentioning (except maybe Corrin's side B), but none of those DLC characters are seen as high on the tier list as these three. Is it a coincidence that it ended up that way, or do these three characters have something giving them a little extra push?

Starting to get off topic, but I find it funny that these three characters have been getting the most **** thrown at them over the past few months. At least from what I've seen. But I'm sure that has nothing to do with anything you just read.

 

[L9999]

From where this whole thing about invalidating came from? They are NOTHING alike to do this comparisons. The only thing they are equal is that they are short kids with striped shirts. I though this was only a problem from casual Brawl players.....

He can actually force you to approach by charging limit.

So does and any character with a chargeable move or screen traveling projectile.

 

[Quantumpen]

You don't find Mewtwo's fair/d-tilt shadow ball wall, disable-usmash kill confirms at 60-80% on most of the cast, best kill-throw in the game, nearly impossible to edge-guard recovery, or 30% (as high as 50%) + conversions until kill percents noteworthy?

There is absolutely no way that post patch Bayonetta is better than Mewtwo. He's almost strictly better at everything she used to be good at (Threatening in neutral with long-range high reward pokes and converting huge damage/kills off of neutral pokes).

I agree with the rest of your post -- though I don't think Zero is correct about Ryu -- people see that his advantaged state is ridiculous with those early kills and forget just how hard it is for Ryu to get in on some characters. He's not sweeping tournament results for a reason, and it's not because he's "super hard" to use. It's because without really good reads, he struggles to get around characters who can space him out with bigger hitboxes or zone him well. Time will tell, though.

The only DLC character that's clearly at least a little overtuned is Cloud and I still feel like people are being alarmist about it. He's really easy to pick up and play -- so you see him a lot. Yet I have never seen a Cloud player -- either against myself or when analyzing matches -- pull anything that felt super crazy or unfair. He exerts pressure with big hitboxes, that's basically his thing. There is counterplay to this.

He's not 1.1.5 Bayo. He's not prepatch Sheik. I highly doubt he's really going to take over the meta.

 

[ARGHETH]

Ryu by many top player accounts is also potentially top 3 in the game. That would be 2 out of 3 best characters in the game being DLC in a roster of 55.

"Many" player accounts? Only a few think of him as top 3, it just happens that one of them is ZeRo.

Corrin doesn't have the consistent results yet but I suspect he'll be top 10 down the line as well (he did just get top 4 at LTC). But for now I guess I can't justify saying that so I wont.

Corrin in no way will be top 10 unless something crazy happens. Top 15-20 and best FE character maybe, but not top 10.

 

[Patriarachnid]

remember that all 3 Clouds came in from Loser's bracket and that 2 of them got 7th

if people weren't panicking when there were like 4 Sheiks in top 4 at Paragon(?) then this is way more more tame

Well, if I remember correctly, Bayonetta never had great results at top-level play either. Doesn't mean she wasn't broken. Because, you know. Most smash players aren't top players, and shouldn't be expected to be.

From where this whole thing about invalidating came from? They are NOTHING alike to do this comparisons. The only thing they are equal is that they are short kids with striped shirts. I though this was only a problem from casual Brawl players.....

So does and any character with a chargeable move or screen traveling projectile.

Samus, Shiek, Mewtwo, and anyone else don't keep their charge should they get hit, nor do they gain charge from getting hit. Fully charging their stuff also doesn't give them god-tier mobility, an extremely good, near unpunishable recovery, or a frame 10 kill move with frame 6 intangibility and no endlag that does a quarter of a stock's worth of damage.

Also yeah seriously who is still comparing Lucas and Ness. They're as much clones as Mario and Luigi.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

From where this whole thing about invalidating came from? They are NOTHING alike to do this comparisons. The only thing they are equal is that they are short kids with striped shirts. I though this was only a problem from casual Brawl players.....


So does and any character with a chargeable move or screen traveling projectile.

You'd be surprised. Casual Smash 4 players also think Lucas and Ness are clones. Similar to Wolf and the other spacies.

But I think his point was one Earthbound character invalidating the other, not that they were clones. Similar to how when people suggest Cloud invalidates other sword characters, they mean literally that. They are not implying Cloud is literally Marth or Shulk with the same moves, just better frame data. Either way results indicate Ness/Lucas are probably around the same tier wise.

Anyway those other characters chargeable moves won't kill you at 60-80 outside of rage Lucario (who has a host of other issues to make up for it plus it being only a factor when he has rage). That's the difference. So you have to respect their charging a lot less. No one has ever approached Sheik because "OMG I'm terrified of her getting full needles!".

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Except it isn't wrong? Link beats VERY few characters and gets destroyed by almost all top and high tiers (Well, the ones that everyone agrees is that anyway). He has bad mobility, bad frame data, pretty bad recovery, and many almost-useless moves. His theory defitenly say "bottom tier" as his flaws outweigh his strengths. His results are what get him out of bottom tier, but he stays in bottom 13 at the least due to his theory.

Marth also suffers from a bad matchup spread as well, and his strengths aren't as good as people say

marths matchup spread is not bad at all, I have no idea where you got the idea that it is. According to False, Mr. E, and Pugwest he has the matchup spread of an upper high tier

 

[Djent]

There is absolutely no way that post patch Bayonetta is better than Mewtwo. He's almost strictly better at everything she used to be good at (Threatening in neutral with long-range high reward pokes and converting huge damage/kills off of neutral pokes).

You only alluded to neutral and advantage states, so I can see why you'd think that. But don't forget about ability to get out of disadvantage, which easily goes to Bayo and is the one thing Mewtwo mains universally complain about.

 

[Das Koopa]

Because, you know. Most smash players aren't top players, and shouldn't be expected to be.

Most aren't, but most people in top 8 at Apex were, including 2/3 of the Cloud players.

 

[Gawain]

People are sleeping on Sethlon and Roy hard. Good to see at least a few are seeing how good Roy potentially is though. 17th at LTC4, just barely (and I mean JUST barely) losing to DKwill is respectable. Sethlon is catching up, if he traveled more we wouldn't see so much disinfo from armchair theorists.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Spoiler: Apex 2016

1. Dabuz
2. CLG Void
3. Nietono
4. FOX Mew2king
5. SuperGirlKels
5. Marss
7. James
7.Tweek

Spoiler: Low tier City

1.TSM ZeRo
2. Liquid Nairo
3. SF Hyuga
4. Cosmos
5.Mook
5. PG ESAM
7. DKWill
7. P2P with Gibus

yo 2 Pikachus AND 2 Corrins?

It seems like Pikachu is starting to actually get some notable results outside of Esam... I wonder what this means

 

[Nocally]

yo 2 Pikachus AND 2 Corrins?

It seems like Pikachu is starting to actually get some notable results outside of Esam... I wonder what this means

Funny thing is, Cosmos (4th place at LTC) used to play Pikachu and is now a Corrin main.

Edit: at least I think he used to main Pikachu.

 

[Nobie]

"LOL 5.99 Pay to Win" is the last thing that should be in this thread, in my opinion.

If Leo is starting to main Marth over Meta Knight and even Cloud (though he clearly still uses Cloud), then Marth must offer something different and special.

Also, I've never thought of Marth's tippers as big-deal damage dealers. It's really killing power where they shine.

 

[Jamurai]

Samus, Shiek, Mewtwo, and anyone else don't keep their charge should they get hit, nor do they gain charge from getting hit. Fully charging their stuff also doesn't give them god-tier mobility, an extremely good, near unpunishable recovery, or a frame 10 kill move with frame 6 intangibility and no endlag that does a quarter of a stock's worth of damage.

Yeah enough with the trigger words. The point was that he's not the only character who can force opponents to approach in order to stop them from charging a very powerful move. Therefore it's not a top tier trait which inherently needs nerfing like some imply. Just because his charging gives him the most reward overall doesn't mean the point is invalid.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I used to be a Roy (and Kirby) pessimist/hater, but sometimes it takes someone beating you over the head repeatedly with their good tools in-game for you to realise you're biased, and your opinions are based on nothing but stuff you read one time from people who don't even play the character. Thanks @warionumbah2 for this lesson.

Roy is defo not as dysfunctional as I assumed he was based on his design. He is fast and strong, has a great mix up game and rather high kill power. His poor disadvantage state is highly notable though, and is something one definitely needs to exploit in the matchup.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Sometimes I just don't understand smash players.

Diddy and Sheik show time and time again that they have better results and are ultimately stronger characters. And yet, as it becomes incresingly clear via results that Cloud can't quite keep up - even with 3 of the top 5 Cloud players in attendance he didn't even break into the top 3 of Apex - more and more people are picking him up or complaining about him. I can understand why they're doing the former, Cloud *is* the best secondary character after all, but all these complaints about him being 'too good' are honestly becoming more and more pathetic as top level play keeps debunking them. Even Komorikiri who 'officially' announced on twitter that he'd drop Sonic in favor of other characters ended up using Cloud as nothing more than a supplement to Sonic with whom he still does most of his work. As a solo character Cloud's viability is more comparable to Fox rather than to Diddy Kong or Sheik.

If you don't wanna make yourself look silly at least do the right thing and complain about Cloud in doubles where he's truly a stupid character. So far he hasn't done anything in singles that's worth complaining about other than being very easy to play though. If you guys just enjoy complaining -I know a lot of you do- then at least complain about the right things for the right reasons.

 

[meleebrawler]

"LOL 5.99 Pay to Win" is the last thing that should be in this thread, in my opinion.

If Leo is starting to main Marth over Meta Knight and even Cloud (though he clearly still uses Cloud), then Marth must offer something different and special.

Also, I've never thought of Marth's tippers as big-deal damage dealers. It's really killing power where they shine.

Namely, more solid forward-facing aerial spacing and ground spacing. Also the fact that he, and every other swordsman doesn't need to charge a limit to reach their full potential. You can rag on how easy it is for Cloud to get and keep it compared to the reward it offers all you want, but it can still be a turn-off for some. In particular the complaints I've heard of Limit offering stronger benefits than Shulk's arts... uh, it kinda has to when you look at it's requirements. Shulk can have what basically amounts to Limit mobility the entire game by diligently switching between Jump and Speed, and that's not even getting into the customs.

Sometimes I just don't understand smash players.

Diddy and Sheik show time and time again that they have better results and are ultimately stronger characters. And yet, as it becomes incresingly clear via results that Cloud can't quite keep up - even with 3 of the top 5 Cloud players in attendance he didn't even break into the top 3 of Apex - more and more people are picking him up or complaining about him. I can understand why they're doing the former, Cloud *is* the best secondary character after all, but all these complaints about him being 'too good' are honestly becoming more and more pathetic as top level play keeps debunking them. Even Komorikiri who 'officially' announced on twitter that he'd drop Sonic in favor of other characters ended up using Cloud as nothing more than a supplement to Sonic with whom he still does most of his work. As a solo character Cloud's viability is more comparable to Fox rather than to Diddy Kong or Sheik.

If you don't wanna make yourself look silly at least do the right thing and complain about Cloud in doubles where he's truly a stupid character. So far he hasn't done anything in singles that's worth complaining about other than being very easy to play though. If you guys just enjoy complaining -I know a lot of you do- then at least complain about the right things for the right reasons.

Popularity breeds hatred and envy, regardless of whether the source is deserving of it or not. Kind of like Final Fantasy VII as whole (the irony is staggering).

 

[Trifroze]

Sometimes I just don't understand smash players.

Diddy and Sheik show time and time again that they have better results and are ultimately stronger characters. And yet, as it becomes incresingly clear via results that Cloud can't quite keep up - even with 3 of the top 5 Cloud players in attendance he didn't even break into the top 3 of Apex - more and more people are picking him up or complaining about him. I can understand why they're doing the former, Cloud *is* the best secondary character after all, but all these complaints about him being 'too good' are honestly becoming more and more pathetic as top level play keeps debunking them. Even Komorikiri who 'officially' announced on twitter that he'd drop Sonic in favor of other characters ended up using Cloud as nothing more than a supplement to Sonic with whom he still does most of his work. As a solo character Cloud's viability is more comparable to Fox rather than to Diddy Kong or Sheik.

If you don't wanna make yourself look silly at least do the right thing and complain about Cloud in doubles where he's truly a stupid character. So far he hasn't done anything in singles that's worth complaining about other than being very easy to play though. If you guys just enjoy complaining -I know a lot of you do- then at least complain about the right things for the right reasons.

You're completely missing the point. Most people are not complaining about Cloud's top level brokenness or capability. They're complaining about his popularity due to him being a very good character who's easy to pick up and utilize effectively.

Next time someone's tired of the fact that one third of all players they ever face in a tournament use Cloud in at least one match, or when an average player using character x understandably struggles to deal with an average Cloud player, should they find solace in the fact that "at least Cloud isn't too good at the top level !" and move along? No, because what happens at the top level is practically irrelevant to me, to you and to 99.9% of all people who care about this game's meta.

It's fine (and important) to make negative remarks about aspects other than how well a character performs among 20 of the world's best players. It's not the only thing that's relevant, nor is it the thing that's realistically most relevant. Critique also shouldn't have the sort of stigma some people are trying to apply to it, i.e. you either complain like a loser or you adapt, absolutely can't do both at the same time and absolutely can't criticize something without being a complaining loser.

 

[Ghostbone]

I mean if a character doesn't perform at top level, then as a competitor you should look at what those players are doing to deal with Cloud and implement some of that into your own gameplay. If Cloud isn't dominating top level play, there must be a reason for that. It's not like the Cloud's you're losing to are tweek/M2K (and if they are, then they're just better than you), so you can learn to deal with the character.

Like damn, Nietono was giving us some great examples of how to body Cloud's recovery. Yet people would still just rather complain because they don't want to put in the effort to learn how to deal with a character.
Really, it's like smash is a competitive game that rewards those who practice and study more or something.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Next time someone's tired of the fact that one third of all players they ever face in a tournament use Cloud in at least one match, or when an average player using character x understandably struggles to deal with an average Cloud player, should they find solace in the fact that "at least Cloud isn't too good at the top level !" and move along?

They could learn to play Sheik and enjoy the free win for one.

That's an exaggeration. But it's also a valid point.

 

[Trifroze]

I mean if a character doesn't perform at top level, then as a competitor you should look at what those players are doing to deal with Cloud and implement some of that into your own gameplay. If Cloud isn't dominating top level play, there must be a reason for that. It's not like the Cloud's you're losing to are tweek/M2K (and if they are, then they're just better than you), so you can learn to deal with the character.

Like damn, Nietono was giving us some great examples of how to body Cloud's recovery. Yet people would still just rather complain because they don't want to put in the effort to learn how to deal with a character.
Really, it's like smash is a competitive game that rewards those who practice and study more or something.

It's true that in a sense, top level is always the future and something you can aim for, so a competitive person would rather have a matchup be good at the top level and bad at lower levels than vice versa (this is actually why I said "what happens at the top level is practically irrelevant to us").

The reality though is that the vast majority of players never reach that level, and sometimes the factors that turn a matchup from bad to good require you to consistently utilize some pretty difficult concepts or mechanics. Yes, we may all think those concepts and mechanics are simple and easy or slightly challenging at worst, but that's a failure of empathy. Sometimes good players forget how much work it takes to learn certain things and to turn them intuitive.

Fighting games involve a lot of mental struggle to a player trying to get good, and while you might say that people struggling with Cloud just need to get better because ultimately he's very beatable at higher levels, the vast majority of players are constantly in the middle of that journey being frustrated about him. Things like that are what turn people off and make them give up and switch away before they reach that high or top level, and that has a direct negative effect on the whole community. If people give up for arbitrary reasons then fine, but Cloud's effect on the meta especially at lower levels isn't exactly arbitrary at the moment.

 

[Ninety]

I've been a part of the "Roy is trash" crowd for a while now, even wrote a couole walls of text on the subject, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong. 17th at a large regional won't cut it, though.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Things like that are what turn people off and make them give up

This is going to sound brash and rude but you know what? If that's what's going to make them give up, then let them. Like I see what you mean to some degree but this is learning a matchup and learning tools, and if you lack the fortitude to even try ("I'll never be top level" is not a good mentality btw, always strive to be the best) then why bother? We should be fostering a community of strong players willing to stick it out and learn things they thought impossible. That's the key to creating a good playerbase and fostering good mentalities. When I see the Cloud talk go on for 5 pages and then have someone tell me that using Mario over Cloud as a secondary requires "fundamentals" (like Cloud doesn't? ehhh?) among other things, I question where the passion is, where the DRIVE is, y'know? I mean this in the nicest way but IDK if I'm phrasing it properly, so if I'm not, my b. It's not just "git gud", it's "aspire to be better and learn more." Never say never, I could climb up to the top if I wanted to, I'm sure almost anyone in here could if they set their minds to it. It's not in our DNA, it's in our desire and drive.

This isn't a criticism on patch culture or anything but I'm sick of seeing "we'll never be there" because who knows? Saying stuff like that is awful though, we should all strive to be there and understand it. I know I do.

 

[ARISTOS]

A lot of what we are saying about Cloud now has been stated similarly for characters such as :

Cloud, like pre-patch Luigi and Bayo, is simply another top tier at the highest level. Below that, he has a level of dominance unmatched by any other character in the game. This lends credence to the idea that he could potentially be disruptive in midlevel play. This has traditionally been a recipe for a nerf.

I do think there's so much more to learn MU-wise, and I think that we need to look hard at what Nietono did during Apex and take ideas from. I'm not going to lie though, I find Cloud incredibly obnoxious and outside of "OMG Final Fantasy (which is sick, don't get me wrong)", he's probably been my least favorite thing about Smash 4 since the game came out.

this got super bloggy towards the end but whatever

 

[Trifroze]

This is going to sound brash and rude but you know what? If that's what's going to make them give up, then let them. Like I see what you mean to some degree but this is learning a matchup and learning tools, and if you lack the fortitude to even try ("I'll never be top level" is not a good mentality btw, always strive to be the best) then why bother? We should be fostering a community of strong players willing to stick it out and learn things they thought impossible. That's the key to creating a good playerbase and fostering good mentalities. When I see the Cloud talk go on for 5 pages and then have someone tell me that using Mario over Cloud as a secondary requires "fundamentals" (like Cloud doesn't? ehhh?) among other things, I question where the passion is, where the DRIVE is, y'know? I mean this in the nicest way but IDK if I'm phrasing it properly, so if I'm not, my b. It's not just "git gud", it's "aspire to be better and learn more." Never say never, I could climb up to the top if I wanted to, I'm sure almost anyone in here could if they set their minds to it. It's not in our DNA, it's in our desire and drive.

This isn't a criticism on patch culture or anything but I'm sick of seeing "we'll never be there" because who knows? Saying stuff like that is awful though, we should all strive to be there and understand it. I know I do.

Strong willed players are nice but simply having more players in general is always better for the community, not to mention that the strong drive to dedicate yourself to a certain game doesn't happen instantly for anyone. It happens after a certain point, and 1.0.4 Diddies or every third character you face being Cloud makes it less likely for a player to tolerate the game until they reach that point. If there are design flaws and the game hasn't yet given you any reason to keep focusing on it, why wouldn't you rather switch to a different, better designed game?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

It's true that in a sense, top level is always the future and something you can aim for, so a competitive person would rather have a matchup be good at the top level and bad at lower levels than vice versa (this is actually why I said "what happens at the top level is practically irrelevant to us").

The reality though is that the vast majority of players never reach that level, and sometimes the factors that turn a matchup from bad to good require you to consistently utilize some pretty difficult concepts or mechanics. Yes, we may all think those concepts and mechanics are simple and easy or slightly challenging at worst, but that's a failure of empathy. Sometimes good players forget how much work it takes to learn certain things and to turn them intuitive.

Fighting games involve a lot of mental struggle to a player trying to get good, and while you might say that people struggling with Cloud just need to get better because ultimately he's very beatable at higher levels, the vast majority of players are constantly in the middle of that journey being frustrated about him. Things like that are what turn people off and make them give up and switch away before they reach that high or top level, and that has a direct negative effect on the whole community. If people give up for arbitrary reasons then fine, but Cloud's effect on the meta especially at lower levels isn't exactly arbitrary at the moment.

except teaching them how to beat cloud and giving lessons on that (from the community of course. Paying for lessons for a video game? Pass) is always a option.

 

[Nabbitnator]

How does Yoshi do against most of the cast? I don't quite understand his character but he seems to have a lot of great attributes. What is hurting his meta?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

How does Yoshi do against most of the cast? I don't quite understand his character but he seems to have a lot of great attributes. What is hurting his meta?

His grab sucks and he struggles killing and his neutral is awkward

 

[Ghostbone]

People who don't have the drive to improve will complain about literally everything. You nerf cloud and they'll move onto the next character (as they have with literally every other character that's been nerfed).

Nerfing Cloud wouldn't fix anything. People will probably just start complaining about how easy Mario is next lmao. It's the mentality that has to change. If someone's going to quit the game because of Cloud, then cloud being nerfed won't keep them around because they'll just quit because of the next character they label as unfair.

 

[TTTTTsd]

why wouldn't you rather switch to a different, better designed game?

If you want me to be honest, the community itself's given me more reasons to switch to another game and I've contemplated it numerous times (hell once I get access to SF5, if I enjoy it enough I might end up switching over to it). Common tournament characters (yes, even this common) are a thing in like, every fighting game I've played (how many Evil Ryus would you fight in USF4, or like, to go back to ST or most versions of SF2 bar World Warrior, how many Ryus? A ****ton, honestly), yet SF didn't have its growth stifled for it. What actually WILL hurt the game are, IMO, in order from significant to insignificant:
- Game mechanics themselves not being tuned for good competitive play (this is a non-issue in this game)
- Too much patches (not a problem here either, it got sort of dangerously close but not quite, look at MKX or any NRS game if you want an idea of what this looks like). This creates a meta where people are scared to pick really good characters and win because if it happens said character will die.
- Community **** (too much drama, other reasons, maybe lack of stability? Also not a big issue on a general scale here.)

I went back to Dr. Mario for a couple of reasons (mostly for personal satisfaction and enjoyment) but the little regret I had for this choice evaporated because I feel like if anything happens going forward I'll be happy that I didn't keep investing time into Cloud because historically characters like him get patched into this funk where people are under the illusion that they're still viable but in reality they're just ok but probably still not worth (see: Luigi, also very easy to play, but not a good pocket because what relevant MUs does he do convincingly well/decent in? Unsure about Bayo but she might fall into the same category.) At the end of the day I'll always have Mario in the bag too but hey!

 

[Nabbitnator]

His grab sucks and he struggles killing and his neutral is awkward

Does his grab at least give a positional advantage?