Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Trifroze]

It's easy to "destroy" a player when your character's neutral completely counters theirs.

It's a really dumb matchup both ways.

 

[FeelMeUp]

It's easy to "destroy" a player when your character's neutral completely counters theirs.

It's a really dumb matchup both ways.

i'd argue that demolishing any legitimately good player that has beaten you before is difficult.
especially when you have a mentality like M2K.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

It's easy to "destroy" a player when your character's neutral completely counters theirs.

It's a really dumb matchup both ways.

are you saying Kels can't do anything against it?

 

[meticulousboy]

Wait...why is Falco a low tier?

Because he no longer has a Frame 1 Shine from Melee, or the Gatling Combo from Brawl. As @ILOVESMASH said, Falco's projectile is terrible. In fact, it has a rhythm to it such that it's easy to perfect shield all the lasers that come out. Fox's lasers are just too fast and not even worth trying to perfect shield. Such is why Falco is where he is now.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Because he no longer has a Frame 1 Shine from Melee, or the Gatling Combo from Brawl

that's actually....not why at all.
mediocre neutral, bad zoning, garbage recovery, mediocre mobility. nothing more, nothing less.

 

[ぱみゅ]

are you saying Kels can't do anything against it?

Sonic has a lot of trouble against disjoints, and Cloud's are gigantic.
I didn't watch the winners set, but M2K probably adapted and switched his gameplay to just poking and spacing, a lot more effective than trying to catch Sonic.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Y'know, after watching James vs. Mr. E last night and having some time to reflect, I'm pretty disgusted with Cloud. While watching, I realized Cloud was just better suited to handle the majority of the situations that the players found themselves in. And when I assessed it, it's not just Marth he trumps. It's every sword character.

With Cloud being so good, what's the point of even picking up a different swordsman? There is almost NO reason other than for gimmicks or out of character loyalty; both being highly foolish reasons if you are playing to win. Break it down and tell me I'm wrong.

Of all the swordies, Cloud is both the fastest runner and has the highest airspeed. He has the second fastest fall speed behind Roy.

When it comes to range, it's a huge toss up. I'm sure each swordsman wins in terms of some move (i.e. Corrin = best fsmash, Shulk = dsmash, Marth = uair, etc). What makes Cloud different is his massive sword and lingering hitboxes. The fact that his sword is so fat means it covers more space, and the lasting hitboxes means that extra coverage is out for more time. Other than nair, no other swordsman really has a longlasting hitbox that's practical in neutral.

And when it comes to damage output? When you look at each individual move, Ike generally wins. Now take followups and combos into account. I don't have to tell ya whose getting the most out of each hit, you already know. But do go look at the frame data yourself. There are several instances where Cloud's damage output is more than that of Marth's tipper. That's absurd, when a character who is rewarded for good fundamentals and spacing get less out of it than the $5.99 variant.

Now take all of that, and give him a projectile, two spikes on aerials, a 19% side B, great frame data, and Limit. He isn't fundamentally broken, he still has downsides, but these "weaknesses" that we keep hearing about are much more evident and effective on the other swordsman who suffer from them.

It's not even a question, Cloud is better than every swordsman in practically every field.

You see, I'm not upset with Cloud because he's too good or because he's "broken" or whatever it is that the masses are screaming, it's because if he remains untouched, the rest of the swordsman become more and more obsolete.

So tell me- if you're playing to win, what's the point in playing any other swordsman?

 

[Das Koopa]

I'll catch up on apex and ltc4 soon

game of thrones left me sweaty and i need time

 

[Trifroze]

i'd argue that demolishing any legitimately good player that has beaten you before is difficult.
especially when you have a mentality like M2K.

are you saying Kels can't do anything against it?

I was referring to Void vs Marss. That's the only recent context in which the word destroy was used.

 

[sedrf]

well to be fair most of the swordsmen where godawful on release.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I was referring to Void vs Marss. That's the only recent context in which the word destroy was used.

My apologies then. I assumed you were talking about m2k vs Kels since its known sonic struggles against disjoints and since you said "neutral is completely countered by the other," I just thought you were talking about cloud vs sonic.

 

[TDK]

So did Kels come second?

 

[PK Gaming]

I'll catch up on apex and ltc4 soon

game of thrones left me sweaty and i need time

Same but replace game of thrones with the NBA finals because HOLY **** CAVS WON THE ENTIRE THING WITH THE MOST IMPOSSIBLE OF COMEBACKS

 

[Deleted member 269706]

well to be fair most of the swordsmen where godawful on release.

That's a good point. It's just upsetting that Cloud is just so much better than them. I remember a time where playing a sword character made you in the minority.

Man, I wish Sakurai and Co would just redesign every non DLC character in a way that would make them as potent as the payed chars.

 

[Djent]

WOW at ZeRo's 3-game comeback on Nairo. Lately he's been the recipient of those more than the one pulling them off. Could he finally be back in peak form?

 

[Gunla]

WOW at ZeRo's 3-game comeback on Nairo. Lately he's been the recipient of those. Could he finally be back in peak form?

I'd say he's definitely getting back into a really strong position, with that much of an adaption level. I'd say he's in a good position to take LTC4...

But man, that Game 3 was pivotal. Nairo just lost his composure and straight up choked.

 

[my_T]

the diddy/zss match-up looks rough for zss

 

[Ninety]

TFW your internet dies just as ZeRO vs Nairo game 5 starts. Goddammit.

Glad to see the scarflord took it though. He's overdue for a win. Though he's made Grands in every tournament since he came back, so he might still end up second yet.

 

[Djent]

Nietono keeps spiking out of his Up-B. He did vs. Tweek and now again vs. M2K to seal game 1.

 

[sedrf]

Niento looking good at the cloud mu.

 

[PK Gaming]

ZeRo should become a fisherman because my god those down tilts

 

[PK Gaming]

COSMOS WITH THAT INCREDIBLE COMEBACK

Believe in the Uair

 

[TurboLink]

I wish Cosmos would stop letting Hyuga recover so easily.

 

[sedrf]

It's like people where saying that cloud's recovery is not exploitable even though niento has shown otherwise.
As did nairo when he fought M2k.
Cloud is really overtuned and may need a nerf,but people have to understand that their is counterplay.

 

[PK Gaming]

So close...

That was a goddamn great set though, mad props to Hyuga and his incredibly solid Toon Link

 

[TDK]

Link to the stream please?

 

[TurboLink]

Link to the stream please?

It's right here. ZeRo vs. Nairo right now.

 

[TDK]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand it's done.

 

[Djent]

Despite starting later, LTC still manages to finish before APEX (lmao). Congrats to ZeRo for proving he's still the best.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

The patient play is coming. I see it already.

Finally (thank you diddy Fair for being the best forward facing poke in the game). Also, lol at people saying ZeRo is boring when his neutral is at ssb64 levels of nuance.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

And Dabuz wins his first Apex

 

[my_T]

doesn't nairo have a cloud or any other character to deal with this match-up? He shouldv'e been thinking about a counter pick after the winners finals set

 

[420quickscoper]

Apex top 8:

1: Dabuz
2: VoiD
3: Nietono
4: Mew2King
5: SuperGirlKels
6: Marss
7: Tweek
8: James

 

[sedrf]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Anyway do you think Nairo might consider taking his doubles cloud as a secondary.
At the same time with niento counterplay by diddy vs cloud is developing

 

[Aaron1997]

Spoiler: Apex 2016

1. Dabuz
2. CLG Void
3. Nietono
4. FOX Mew2king
5. SuperGirlKels
5. Marss
7. James
7.Tweek

Spoiler: Low tier City

1.TSM ZeRo
2. Liquid Nairo
3. SF Hyuga
4. Cosmos
5.Mook
5. PG ESAM
7. DKWill
7. P2P with Gibus

 

[Djent]

Did VoiD actually win games with ? There were none that I remember.

Anyway, those tourneys were fun. I am still impressed that Hyuga managed to beat ESAM in both sets. I don't think that matchup is in Toon Link's favor, though it could be even.

EDIT: Just for fun~

OK OK she's top 10 nairo I'm sorry jesus

— ESAM (@imESAM) June 20, 2016

 

[Shaya]

A man holds onto his Cloud until it truly rains.

*cough*heatinfloridaorvegasmayrequireit*cough*

 

[DanGR]

Despite his loss, I'm impressed by how far Void has progressed in the Sheik/Rosa matchup since his last tournament set with Dabuz. He made a lot of adjustments this time that gave him a much closer shot at the win. Off the top of my head, he made more liberal but calculated use of dash attack to dispose of Luma, had much better spacing on shield with falling f-air in neutral, exercised more patience in neutral [at times] without giving up too much stage control, and seemed more confident & precise on his edge-guarding plays. His movement overall looked more calculated and thoughtful- especially in neutral. I think he also made better decisions on when to pursue Luma > Rosa this time around. Well done.

 

[BSP]

CEO 2016 first draft pools are out!
https://smash.gg/tournament/ceo-2016/brackets/11789/12882

Spoiler: Quick Overview of Threats in Each Pool

A1: ZeRo , Raziek , Prince Ramen , dekillsage
A2: VoiD , Xaltis , Shel , Rango
A3: Falln , Mr. E , Kazu , Tachyon
A4: Zinoto , Master Raven , Snakeee , Mekos
A5: All Might , Trevonte , LingLing
B1: False , Ryo , Cosmos , JaK
B2: Rain , Purple Guy , Rich Brown , Ross
B3: Mr. R , Seibrik , Techei
B4: 6WX , Remzi , Z
B5: Dabuz , Karna , dyr , Sect
C1: Tweek , Tyroy , LordFrieza
C2: Trela , Jtails , Myran , TekNo
C3: Nietono , Ksev , Josh , Deven3000
C4: Larry Lurr , Day , IceArrow , VeXx
C5: Vinnie , Wrath , Keitaro
D1: Hyuga , Logic , S@nt (not sure I have 3rd seed right in this pool)
D2: MVD , C3PO , BigLou , CaptainZack
D3: Marss , Dath , Zephyr , Mr. Doom
D4: Fatality , Seagull Joe , Tremendo Dude
D5: ESAM , Pugwest , Colinies , Mister Eric
E1: ANTi , Wizzrobe , Samsora , Lade
E2: Ally , MJG , True Blue
E3: Nairo , JJRockets , Draquaza (not sure I have 3rd seed right in this pool)
E4: FOW , Saj , Kamicario , Eden , Eldin
E5: Abadango , TLTC , Mav , Syde7
E6: Mew2King , Angbad , Mook
F1: K9sbruce , NickRiddle , Dill , StreetShark
F2: NAKAT , Zenyou , Sol , KidG
F3: Umeki , DKWill , RiotLettuce
F4: ScAtt , DJ Jack , Acid , Leo Hart
F5: 8BitMan , Pink Fresh , EKING (not sure I have 3rd seed right in this pool)
F6: Shaky , Reflex (not sure who 3rd seed in this pool is, probably GDX or Captain Clutch)

Nothing too exciting from just a brief scan. No brackets yet so we can't tell who's 1st/2nd/3rd seed.

Edit: Double checked smash.gg and CEO is running top 2 advance per pool instead of top 3 like most recent large events. Oh boy...
Double edit: Made some corrections to characters based on Djent 's post. Dekillsage does still play Fox I believe based on recent VODs, and Streetshark is listed as Sonic on the most recent CFL PR (I also couldn't find any videos of his Rosa).

I believe Bman1K is in M2K's pool. He almost beat trela at the last TGC, but he charged a Usmash for a quarter of a second too long and got shoryukened for it. Threat for sure.

 

[thehard]

VoiD is smart enough to understand getting Luma offstage is worth a hit from Rosa, because Sheik can follow up on her for days in the interim. Suuuper impressed with how he cranked up the heat games 3-5. His spacing game got 10x as good.

I confess I was watching Apex over LTC for Grands, so I'll have to see what went wrong for Nairo later. Maybe he needs to bring back Pit for Diddy or something. Or if ZeRo really has a Mario problem, start honing that Doc again.