Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[JustSomeScrub]

Top 10 on Sumamate (Japanese online ladder) before Sumabato starts tonight (a lot of top tournament players also play wifi quite a bit)

1) Hitori 2092 points, 264-74
1) Ron 2092 points, 116-16
3) Shuton 2070 points, 75-22
4) FILIP 2037 points, 224-128
5) // 2011 points, 221-30
6) Masashi 2008 points, 70-21
7) ikep 2002 points, 61-31
8) Hitorotomu 2000 points, 56-11
9) Mangalica 1976 points, 61-17
10) Nga 1969 points, 69-22

Wait a Bowser JR. player is ranked number 1 online in Japan? Isn't he considered low tier by most?

A Charizard is in top 8? Also aside from Cloud and maybe Mario no top tier is on this list. Are there footage of these guys in action?

I get it's wifi but wifi in Japan is much better than in NA so I don't think that's much of an excuse.

 

[ARGHETH]

Wait a Bowser JR. player is ranked number 1 online in Japan? Isn't he considered low tier by most?

A Charizard is in top 8? Also aside from Cloud and maybe Mario no top tier is on this list. Are there footage of these guys in action?

I get it's wifi but wifi in Japan is much better than in NA so I don't think that's much of an excuse.

It's Japan...he can be low tier and still be doing well there, especially over wifi.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

It's Japan...he can be low tier and still be doing well there, especially over wifi.

Their internet connections are not the same as ours. Consider the distance for instance, Japan is pretty congested. Also they use fibre optic connections.

Stating "it's Japan" doesn't explain anything unless you are implying they are bad enough where a low tier character can do so well. But we know this is not the case as their players have won MAJORS in NA in both Brawl and Smash 4.

Also that poster pointed out that plenty of Japan's best players play online. So it's not like these results are due to the best players ignoring online.

Maybe Bowser JR. isn't as bad as NA thinks. We like to pretend we have stuff figured out when there's so much we don't know and underestimate.

 

[Djent]

is in winners semis of Sumabato 11. Those of you holding out for Some are looking in the wrong place. Oisiitofu is insane.

 

[ARISTOS]

is in winners semis of Sumabato 11. Those of you holding out for Some are looking in the wrong place. Oisiitofu is insane.

Oisiitofu is playing Kie. v. should be dope to watch

EDIT: Please watch this set. Amazing gameplay, I think Kie's movement is actually on a whole other level

 

[Das Koopa]

You3 assured 4th at worst at Sumabato, best a Duck Hunt has ever performed

 

[Quantumpen]

These Japanese Duck Hunt players are fierce. I can't even figure out why it works so well from watching the videos, but it does.

 

[Djent]

Spoiler: Sumabato 11 Results

1) Komorikiri
2) Kie
3) ikep
4) You3
5) Earth
5) Oisiitofu
7) Aki
7) FILIP
9) Fuwa
9) Gomamugitya
9) Z~Tan
9) Tatsutsuyo
13) A
13) Souther
13) HIKARU
13) Sylph

180 entrants. Bracket here.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Spoiler: Sumabato 11 Results

1) Komorikiri
2) Kie
3) ikep
4) You3
5) Earth
5) Oisiitofu
7) Aki (?)
7) FILIP
9) Fuwa
9) Gomamugitya
9) Z~Tan
9) Tatsutsuyo
13) A
13) Souther
13) HIKARU
13) Sylph

180 entrants. Bracket here.

Well there's Marth, middle of top 16 like he usually is

Wait a second, is that a Corrin? I haven't seen one in so long, I almost forgot s/he existed

 

[Smog Frog]

how often did komo use ?

 

[Das Koopa]

Noteworthy players out before top 16:
-9B
-Taiheita
-Kamemushi
-Ri-Ma
-Sigma
-Shuton
-Shogun

 

[bc1910]

@Thinkaman Inspiring words and I completely agree with you. I am also sick of top player circlejerks and community exclusion. I do think the situation has improved since the Back Room-driven Melee/Brawl days though.

is in winners semis of Sumabato 11. Those of you holding out for Some are looking in the wrong place. Oisiitofu is insane.

Some seems to have died a long time ago. I haven't seen him enter anything notable for months.

Overall, I can say though they are really good at taking stocks from nowhere with reads and situation awareness, I believe they need to chill and try to slow the game down a little, especially on venia's part since he holds a good projectile and dash grab to punish anything with lag on the ground. He really only needed to do SH Fairs to provoke and then punish with dash grab because of the distance and range it holds. One trick he could've used was to stand still for approx 20 frames and went for a dash grab the moment Mr.E got greedy before the scrambling happened. I feel this could be a bad MU for Marth because of him being easily punish for any bad aerial he throws out and the fact that he has to approach a character who has a psuedo sword, strong punish game, and good edgeguarding capabilites. Marth can PS predictable shurikens and go for spaced Fairs a couple of times, then a SHFF into grab/shield breaker/wait then punish. However, this is my assumption and theorycraft based on what I've seen from this match and my knowledge of each characters abilities. Idk the results from this particular MU. Maybe Marth has to play aggro to throw off greninja and to take control of the game, idk and if someone has a different input, I would be glad to hear it.

EDIT: something else I thought about after making this: how about we also do match discussions? Somebody posts a match and people go to discuss what they've seen.

I really enjoyed this analysis overall so good job.

Approaching Greninja is often a nighmare. I do think Greninja is top-tier good when he is forcing the approach/has the lead. Powershielding shurikens is rather difficult if you are using them correctly, as charging them for a couple of frames will ruin powershield timing.

Whether Greninja has the advantage against Marth I don't know, because Marth has no issue putting safe(-ish) disjointed hitboxes in Greninja's blindspot (in front and above him) and thus can exert near-free pressure in the neutral. Marth is probably the best character at abusing this particular weakness of Greninja. I do think that Marth can go aggro to take control of the neutral and repeated use of spaced aerials is hard to deal with. Incidentally I also think this is why Greninja loses slightly to Cloud. If Marth and Cloud had more lag on their aerials I would put both MUs quite strongly in Greninja's favour.

The three top Marth mains who recently put out MU charts (which were posted in this thread) all had Greninja between 50:50 and 60:40 which is interesting. I think we can safely say that Marth doesn't win, but I'm not completely sold that Greninja does.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Noteworthy players out before top 16:
-9B
-Taiheita
-Kamemushi
-Ri-Ma
-Sigma
-Shuton
-Shogun

Don't forget that Kamemushi sandbagged and didn't use Mega Man, Cloud or Yoshi once though.

 

[soniczx123]

how often did komo use ?

He used Sonic all the time except for a few games.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I think some of the main reasons those players drowned was because it was. Bo1 in pools, and is prob a reason for the inconsistency. Also yay Komo Senpai

 

[Nobie]

The only exceptions in history have been games that slant towards masochism, addiction, and sunk-cost fallacy of execution skills developed, like Counter-Strike, original DotA, and to a limited extent Melee.

I have to say that I love this description, because it encapsulates something I've been trying to describe for a long time (and can only seem to do so in giant essays).

Of course, what you wrote is also a giant essay but let's put that aside.

 

[Fenny]

Spoiler: Sumabato 11 Results

1) Komorikiri
2) Kie
3) ikep
4) You3
5) Earth
5) Oisiitofu
7) Aki (?)
7) FILIP
9) Fuwa
9) Gomamugitya
9) Z~Tan
9) Tatsutsuyo
13) A
13) Souther
13) HIKARU
13) Sylph

180 entrants. Bracket here.

ikep has to be my favourite Bayo on the scene right now, just because from what I've seen him do he embodies more so than any other Bayo main how creative her combo chains can be without even needing to touch Witch Twist, especially after 1.1.6. If there's any Bayo I look to for ideas and inspiration for combo mix ups, I go to him. Very happy he's gotten top 3 here.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Sumabato tournaments are always interesting because they provide good insight into the mid-tier and generally non-top tier metagame, whether it's Pit, DK or Lucas ... how else could we have seen Abadango and 9B both getting eliminated by DH players with Mewtwo recently if it weren't for people like Raito, Yousan or Brood?

Sure, the results become incosistent as hell as a consequence by I think it's good that non-top tiers get a chance to shine.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

So wait, I heard Kie could potentially be the best Peach as of now? Man, I want to see this stuff do bad, I hope it gets uploaded to YouTube or something.

I know I talk about Peach alot,(I still miss playing her) but lately, her results have been getting pretty good, and it seems few people even acknowledge or even notice this.

What do people think of her now? Do you consider her a threat and that you should learn the MU.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Peach is still very much a mediocre character in my book.

 

[TDK]

Spoiler: Sumabato 11 Results

1) Komorikiri
2) Kie
3) ikep
4) You3
5) Earth
5) Oisiitofu
7) Aki (?)
7) FILIP
9) Fuwa
9) Gomamugitya
9) Z~Tan
9) Tatsutsuyo
13) A
13) Souther
13) HIKARU
13) Sylph

180 entrants. Bracket here.

Peach pulling in those results! Hopefully they'll put some of Kie's matches on youtube.

actually is approaching the results as a high tier now.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I think she definitely is a candidate for high tier, for a while now.

The moment she actually WINS a tournament instead of getting close to winning, then we can definitely see how much strong she is, but right now she is doing quite fine.

@falln you seem to view peach pretty well, how would you rate her? What do you think her future holds? Will it be good? Bad? What do you think of this extremely technical character?

 

[Djent]

Lately, Kie's been getting better results than Umeki (ever did). I'm not sure what SlayerZ has been up to, but I can tell you Kie is certainly Japan's best Peach. It wouldn't surprise me if he's the best, period.

I can't see Peach being high tier as of now, but I do think she can be quite dangerous to anyone who doesn't play Diddy or Sonic.

 

[bc1910]

Peach is in that mish-mash of borderline high tiers with DK and friends.

Her results put her at the higher end of that block.

She probably scrapes top 20.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Is duckhunt actually bad? He seems to have so many tools that work together (aside from his smashes.)

 

[SaltyKracka]

FFS.

Duck Hunt's smashes are not that inconsistent.

 

[soniczx123]

Lately, Kie's been getting better results than Umeki (ever did). I'm not sure what SlayerZ has been up to, but I can tell you Kie is certainly Japan's best Peach. It wouldn't surprise me if he's the best, period.

I can't see Peach being high tier as of now, but I do think she can be quite dangerous to anyone who doesn't play Diddy or Sonic.

Peach has a good MU vs Sonic, as Float destroys spin dash.
The MU is basically who gets lames the other out first wins. (Like Megaman)

 

[Mr. Johan]

DKWill and Dakpo lost to Lilpac

ESAM lost to Miiself from Colorado.

What even is LTC4.

 

[SaltyKracka]

DKWill and Dakpo lost to Lilpac

ESAM lost to Miiself from Colorado.

What even is LTC4.

People keep underestimating Ness, yo.

 

[Djent]

Eh, when I made a matchup chart I had Ness listed as -2.** Character is problematic for many of the reasons Mario is. He can outpace Pika WRT damage racking and sealing out stocks, with the alleviating factor that he can at least get edgeguarded pretty hard. I'm not that surprised.

**Yeah, I toot my own horn more than G&W who also beats Pikachu.

 

[Yonder]

DKWill and Dakpo lost to Lilpac

ESAM lost to Miiself from Colorado.

What even is LTC4.

As if DK didn't take enough abuse in the boxing ring from Mac.

That's 3 big names now rattled by a Mac. I still think he has amongst the highest potential.

And the lowest. When played right, he have Mac almost being Nairo. When played wrong, he have that massacre at Pound with that Mac player vs Larry Lurr's Fox.

Such an enigma. By no means high tier, but maybe he can hit the middle by the end of the games patches.

 

[Wintermelon43]

DKWill and Dakpo lost to Lilpac

ESAM lost to Miiself from Colorado.

What even is LTC4.

No wonder he's aganist mii viability.

(Also, did he use Corrin or Pikachu?)

As if DK didn't take enough abuse in the boxing ring from Mac.

That's 3 big names now rattled by a Mac. I still think he has amongst the highest potential.

And the lowest. When played right, he have Mac almost being Nairo. When played wrong, he have that massacre at Pound with that Mac player vs Larry Lurr's Fox.

Such an enigma. By no means high tier, but maybe he can hit the middle by the end of the games patches.

Don't forget Mew2King vs that Little Mac main at PAX arena

 

[ARISTOS]

DKWill and Dakpo lost to Lilpac

's ceiling is enormous. Nowhere to go but up

 

[juddy96]

Apex joins in on the upset fun.

Zorai > Tweek

 

[DanGR]

An incredibly volatile character () with extreme strengths and weaknesses occasionally makes a big splash.

In other news, grass is confirmed green.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Peach has a good MU vs Sonic, as Float destroys spin dash.

No wonder everybody outside of Japan thinks so lowly of Sonic if beating Spin Dash is supposedly all it takes to have a good matchup against him ...

And the lowest. When played right, he have Mac almost being Nairo. When played wrong, he have that massacre at Pound with that Mac player vs Larry Lurr's Fox.

I think as the metagame progresses Fox will eventually turn out to be one of Mac's hardest matchups. He's one of the few characters in the game that can straight-up challenge Mac's buttons and get a percent lead in neutral. That's something I can see becoming a lot more important than the ability to gimp him [which Fox for instance mostly lacks] - sure, Mac is gimpable but if you can't keep up with him in neutral it's not enough to just throw him offstage and hope for a mistake.

 

[FullMoon]

Wow, I was not expecting Oisiitofu to do that well.

I'll have to see his matches later, more Greninja talent is always nice to see.

 

[soniczx123]

No wonder everybody outside of Japan thinks so lowly of Sonic if beating Spin Dash is supposedly all it takes to have a good matchup against him ...

Well everyone outside of Japan can't play Sonic outside of Spin Dash so yeah lmao.

Real talk though, Peach's superior air game, combos, kill power and ability to eliminate ground options with Float Dair makes it really hard to for Sonic to get on her with his most potent punish tool. Our saving grace is the fact that Peach is really slow so running with the lead is an amazing option. (It's kinda like the Mario MU, get the lead and then GTFO racking up small amounts of damage at a time)

 

[FeelMeUp]

I think +would form ideal matchup coverage in theory, since Corrin handily takes care of Mario/G&W/Ness. Would be nice to see ESAM actually use his pocket Corrin more rather than stubbornly sticking to Pikachu in the bad MUs.

 

[Emblem Lord]

No wonder everybody outside of Japan thinks so lowly of Sonic if beating Spin Dash is supposedly all it takes to have a good matchup against him ...



I think as the metagame progresses Fox will eventually turn out to be one of Mac's hardest matchups. He's one of the few characters in the game that can straight-up challenge Mac's buttons and get a percent lead in neutral. That's something I can see becoming a lot more important than the ability to gimp him [which Fox for instance mostly lacks] - sure, Mac is gimpable but if you can't keep up with him in neutral it's not enough to just throw him offstage and hope for a mistake.

Fox can challenge Macs ftilt, a move designed to be incontestable?

Interesting.