Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[FeelMeUp]

top level sheik seems to body cloud
mid and high level cloud beats almost everyone effortlessly.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

So Apex top 8 has been decided. There are 3 Clouds in losers. There was a Cloud who got 9th as well (Rain).

 

[warionumbah2]

Leo just lost to Kleins 2-0. I have no idea who he used game 1 but game 2 he was Cloud.

 

[blackghost]

in the history of this game has any character ever been half of a top 8? maybe original diddy was at least once but this is a major and we are seeing just how dominate cloud is in matchups against other high tiers.
also the mindset of "just gimp cloud" may need to be revised. only person i saw gimp a cloud was another cloud and it was a trade i believe. the character's weakness seems to only be on paper not in practice.
also glad to see an aggro sonic in supergirl do so well it will open up discussion on hat is actually "optimized play"
lastly RIP bayo. zero representation at apex and one player at LTC.

 

[TheGlove]

Apex top 8
Winners Edit: they changed winners to avoid Dabuz 1st seed and Void 2nd Seed playing immediately
Dabuz Vs SuperGirlKels

Void vs Marrs

Losers

M2k vs Dmg James

Nietono vs Tweek

9th
Mr E Rain The Great Gonzales Umeki

13th
Day Pugwest Raptor 6WX

17th
ADHD Vash John# C3PO Sinji Mister Eric Biddy Minty

Edit: Thanks to Juddy96, ligersandtigons, and Peppermint1201 for corrections


Brackey https://smash.gg/tournament/apex-2016/brackets/11350/40438/135040 (not sure if I did this right)

Kels has a hard bracket has to play the 2nd best zss in the world and if she loses, which is likely, she has to play the winner of Nietono and Tweek.

Also check out https://www.twitch.tv/gooshigaming (on break right now) for Breakout III feat. Ally, Zinoto, Seagull Joe, Rayquaza, Ryuga, Blacktwins, LOE1 etc

First time seeing Rayquaza and Ryuga in a while. Ryuga was playing corrin in doubles.

 

[ARISTOS]

I didn't see the match but usually aggro gets eaten hard by . Peach doesn't have the movement speed to catch a campy Sonic though.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

in the history of this game has any character ever been half of a top 8? maybe original diddy was at least once but this is a major and we are seeing just how dominate cloud is in matchups against other high tiers.
also the mindset of "just gimp cloud" may need to be revised. only person i saw gimp a cloud was another cloud and it was a trade i believe. the character's weakness seems to only be on paper not in practice.
also glad to see an aggro sonic in supergirl do so well it will open up discussion on hat is actually "optimized play"
lastly RIP bayo. zero representation at apex and one player at LTC.

Yeah people act like gimping is a reliable thing in Smash 4 for most characters, it really isn't, especially versus Cloud with his massive disjoints. If you're playing a braindead Cloud than maybe. If Cloud mixes up his recovery even slightly it becomes impossible to do consistently.

And if you do try to gimp Cloud and mess up, he can ledge jump dair gimp you himself.

If anything I'd argue Rosa is a lot easier to edge guard. A slow up B with no hitbox allowing one to air-air it with literally any move they wish. Sure she can up B again but you can rinse and repeat until she's dead.

 

[juddy96]

in the history of this game has any character ever been half of a top 8? maybe original diddy was at least once but this is a major and we are seeing just how dominate cloud is in matchups against other high tiers.
also the mindset of "just gimp cloud" may need to be revised. only person i saw gimp a cloud was another cloud and it was a trade i believe. the character's weakness seems to only be on paper not in practice.
also glad to see an aggro sonic in supergirl do so well it will open up discussion on hat is actually "optimized play"
lastly RIP bayo. zero representation at apex and one player at LTC.

ikep got 3rd/180 literally today at Sumabato with only Bayo. Lost to HIKARU in round 3 and made a huge losers run. And yes its a different Vash, mac Vash is from Vegas, this Vash is from Philly or NJ i think

 

[soniczx123]

https://twitter.com/AllyOrNotAlly/status/744302982246858752

Smash 4 being Smash 4 I guess...

 

[TDK]

Yeah Umeki!

It's always really exciting to see a Peach place so high. Who's streaming this?

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but was Nairo at APEX?

 

[Das Koopa]

edit

nevermind I'm dumb

 

[Game7a1]

What tourney is Ally at?

Breakout III (that is the stream link, and this is the top 32 bracket link).

 

[HeavyLobster]

So a lot of the time when edgeguarding Cloud is brought up a common argument brought up is Cloud's aerial mobility. While Cloud is very mobile in the air, Captain Falcon has extremely similar aerial mobility stats, yet his recovery is considered bad at best. What is it about Non-Limit Cloud that gives him a better recovery than Captain Falcon?

Giant disjointed aerials with generous AC windows. Also his Up-B when going high can have a hitbox on the way down. Cloud recovering low is worse than Falcon, but he covers himself much better when going high.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

The more I hear about these Smash 4 upsets the more I respect Zero's streak. Smash 4 is clearly not a game that's easy for even the best players to be consistent at. Nairo recently losing to Bowser, Ally to Game and Watch. Not like these characters are top tier either. It really does seem like anyone can be upset. So for Zero to remain dominant for so long...it's really unbelievable.

Seriously, how did he never run into a wacky matchup he didn't know? When every other week you hear about other top players being upset by random mid tiers or unknown high/top tier players?

 

[Peppermint1201]

ikep got 3rd/180 literally today at Sumabato with only Bayo. Lost to HIKARU in round 3 and made a huge losers run. And yes its a different Vash, mac Vash is from Vegas, this Vash is from Philly or NJ i think

He's from Philadelphia, I've played him on wifi several times. He uses Marth.

 

[Blobface]

Giant disjointed aerials with generous AC windows. Also his Up-B when going high can have a hitbox on the way down. Cloud recovering low is worse than Falcon, but he covers himself much better when going high.

This is a fair assessment, but if he's recovering high Cloud is vulnerable to the blindspot he suffers from down and to his right. You're not guaranteed to hit him per se, but you are at a significant advantage. Again, Cloud being offstage is not a done deal, he's not absolutely 100% screwed, but it is a weakness that should be exploited more.

 

[juddy96]

Apex top 8
Winners
Dabuz Vs Void

SuperGirlKels vs Marrs

Losers

M2k vs Dmg James

Nietono vs Tweek

9th
Mr E Rain The Great Gonzales Umeki

13th
Day Pugwest Raptor 6WX

17th
ADHD Vash ? (Edit: thank you Juddy96) John# C3PO Sinji Mister Eric Biddy ? Minty

Brackey https://smash.gg/tournament/apex-2016/brackets/11350/40438/135040 (not sure if I did this right)

Kels has a hard bracket has to play the 2nd best zss in the world and if she loses, which is likely, she has to play the winner of Nietono and Tweek.

Also check out https://www.twitch.tv/gooshigaming (on break right now) for Breakout III feat. Ally, Zinoto, Seagull Joe, Rayquaza, Ryuga, Blacktwins, LOE1 etc

First time seeing Rayquaza and Ryuga in a while. Ryuga was playing corrin in doubles.

Biddy is a Toon Link player

 

[C0rvus]

in the history of this game has any character ever been half of a top 8? maybe original diddy was at least once but this is a major and we are seeing just how dominate cloud is in matchups against other high tiers.
also the mindset of "just gimp cloud" may need to be revised. only person i saw gimp a cloud was another cloud and it was a trade i believe. the character's weakness seems to only be on paper not in practice.
also glad to see an aggro sonic in supergirl do so well it will open up discussion on hat is actually "optimized play"
lastly RIP bayo. zero representation at apex and one player at LTC.

I think having 3 Clouds in top 8 mostly has to do with the players in attendance. Look at all the other top 8s recently. Cloud isn't that big an issue.

Also Biddy got 17th? Nice job, friendo. And yeah, he's a local Toon Link.

 

[Das Koopa]

Are there entrant #s for Breakout III and Smash Factor Prelude? research turns up no luck on either end

Emerald City and Smash at Church 6(?) both broke 100 so that's pretty good

Edit: Found Prelude's bracket. It hit 100. No idea on Breakout though lol

Edit 2: Chat at GooshiGaming informed me it hit 96 at Breakout. Excellente.

 

[ligersandtigons]

Apex top 8
Winners
Dabuz Vs Void

SuperGirlKels vs Marrs

Losers

M2k vs Dmg James

Nietono vs Tweek

9th
Mr E Rain The Great Gonzales Umeki

13th
Day Pugwest Raptor 6WX

17th
ADHD Vash ? (Edit: thank you Juddy96) John# C3PO Sinji Mister Eric Biddy ? Minty

Brackey https://smash.gg/tournament/apex-2016/brackets/11350/40438/135040 (not sure if I did this right)

Kels has a hard bracket has to play the 2nd best zss in the world and if she loses, which is likely, she has to play the winner of Nietono and Tweek.

Also check out https://www.twitch.tv/gooshigaming (on break right now) for Breakout III feat. Ally, Zinoto, Seagull Joe, Rayquaza, Ryuga, Blacktwins, LOE1 etc

First time seeing Rayquaza and Ryuga in a while. Ryuga was playing corrin in doubles.

i saw dmg james play and win a set with Luigi on stream btw

 

[Djent]

So like ESAM, Ally was also reseeded into winners. He fought Zinoto R1 and won. Now Zinoto is in losers and Ally has reasonably easy bracket until semis.

I hate reseeding so much. Other players who qualify in winners shouldn't be punished for one top player's mistake.

 

[FullMoon]

Wait why is reseeding even a thing in the first place?

 

[warionumbah2]

9th
Mr E

13th
Pugwest

Marths gonna get more good results yet again. Leo flawlessly 3-0'd Serge(from Lucario to Cloud to Marth) who took Mr R to game 5 in winners. He's used a bit of Cloud however.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Can we discuss why upsets in Smash 4 are so common when it's not like this at all in previous Smash games? My reasons would be:

1. 2 stock format.

For obvious reasons less stocks = more chance of lesser players winning especially if they rely on gimmicks (tactics that work due to unfamiliarity only). It's much harder to outplay top players in longer sets.

2. Character Balance.

In previous Smash games if you mained a top tier character and were good enough with them you invalidated just about every low-mid tier character. But in this game the gap is smaller between top tier characters and everyone else than it has ever been (with the exception of PM which also tends to have tons of upsets). It's not enough to play a top tier anymore, you still have to respect and know these low-mid tier matchups much more than before. And with a cast of 55 characters, that's far from easy.

3. Rage.

In no other Smash game do you get rewarded for losing with more potential kill power. In this game you either fish for kills/go for hard reads (which is risky in of itself) or play solid neutral and let the kills come to you (what generally works well in previous Smash games). If you choose to play the latter more solid style, then there's a good chance your opponent will live to percents where rage becomes a huge factor. Outplay someone in neutral to 150+, only to get hit once by a rogue Smash attack and die at 80. This happens all the time in this game.

 

[TheGlove]

Breakout III Seagull Joe beats Ryuga 2-1 last game Seagull won as Ryuga got stretchered by the town and city platforms while Joe was dying off the top.

 

[ぱみゅ]

4. The overall jank surrounding this game.
srsly.
SRSLY.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

4. The overall jank surrounding this game.
srsly.
SRSLY.

As a PM player idk if that's true for this game. Most characters follow the same set of rules. With Project M a lot of characters could literally pass as being from completely different fighting games. This game seems pretty tame in comparison.

 

[paperchao]

Seagull Joe vs ryuga goes to show why you need to be aware of the stage sometimes or else you die lol

 

[Jams.]

Wait why is reseeding even a thing in the first place?

The event ran round robin pools, where players who advance are typically all seeded into winners. If it were bracket pools it'd be a different story.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Awareness? Naw man, that is for casuals who like to play on Halberd and Kalos.
The true way is the BF/FD/SV (pls ignore its platform shenanigans, it's the fairest stage, as a Sheik main I swear it is!).




But real talk, ever since Brawl came out, and continuing the trend with Smash 4, VERY few people actually consider stages as a factor to keep in mind, close to no tournament regulars paid attention to them (much less learn them), then they complained when something happened to them (because they are not important unless it happens to me), and eventually shrunk the stagelist to the very minimum.
I can only hope these plays have no consequences for stage legality.

 

[TDK]

That reminds me of the time I side-b'd on the Smashville platform as corrin. I killed my opponent, but I died first >.<

This game is NUTS.

Also, is SuperGirlKels still in?

 

[FullMoon]

4. The overall jank surrounding this game.
srsly.
SRSLY.

And this is why you don't begin leaving as soon as you get a star/screen KO lol

He was kinda asking for something like that to happen

 

[Ninety]

4. The overall jank surrounding this game.
srsly.
SRSLY.

I mean, Smash 4 jank definitely is a thing (hello rage autolink shenanigans), but that isn't really an example.

Still bull**** though.

 

[BunbUn129]

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why they say the game isn't over until you're at the victory screen.

 

[meticulousboy]

Time to analyze this match.
Game 1: Mzzkc was so far away from the lead because of the constant air dodges that Daigon capitalized on. I don't agree with the Up Smash at 0:16, though. Daigon could've done Up Air or Neutral Air, maybe Forward Air if the hitbox was lenient enough to connect. At 1:59 Daigon should have known better about the frame data on Pikachu's Forward Smash. I have attempted to punish that move with Force Palm myself and usually fail at getting at least the grab hitbox. Daigon should have done a Dash Attack or read that roll and done a Force Palm or Up Smash. If only Mzzkc remembered that Aura Sphere was already fully charged at 2:18. Lucario's Aura Sphere has more priority over Thunder Jolt.

Game 2: At 5:47 was a nice, classic Lucario combo that was able to add 20% more to Pikachu's damage. I agree with the commentators at 7:18. If Daigon were in that magnifying glass any longer, that hoop damage could've been enough to take his stock from such a Forward Smash. But yes. Mzzkc should have done Up Smash instead. At 7:41, Daigon learned not to punish with Force Palm; he did Dash Attack like I said he should have done in Game 1. Finally 8:07 shows how scary Lucario is at max rage, though not max aura in this case.

By the way, the commentators say that Shiek loses to Lucario. I welcome hopping on that bandwagon again.

 

[paperchao]

Awareness? Naw man, that is for casuals who like to play on Halberd and Kalos.
The true way is the BF/FD/SV (pls ignore its platform shenanigans, it's the fairest stage, as a Sheik main I swear it is!).




But real talk, ever since Brawl came out, and continuing the trend with Smash 4, VERY few people actually consider stages as a factor to keep in mind, close to no tournament regulars paid attention to them (much less learn them), then they complained when something happened to them (because they are not important unless it happens to me), and eventually shrunk the stagelist to the very minimum.
I can only hope these plays have no consequences for stage legality.

It probably won't, if Lylat has survived for this long. The stage problem is probably not helped by smashboards having nowhere to discuss stages either, though

 

[AnEventHorizon]

Marths gonna get more good results yet again. Leo flawlessly 3-0'd Serge(from Lucario to Cloud to Marth) who took Mr R to game 5 in winners. He's used a bit of Cloud however.

Leo also just 3-0 ed Mr. R's Sheik in Grand Finals 1 of Smash Factor with Solo Marth. Bracket Reset now. https://www.twitch.tv/smashfactorgaming

EDIT: Leo Up 2-0 in Grand Finals 2 with solo Marth....

Final Edit: Leo's solo Marth loses Grand finals 2 with a 2-3 score.

 

[blackghost]

4. The overall jank surrounding this game.
srsly.
SRSLY.

thats not jank. lack of awareness is his fault. hes on a counterpick stage on a platform everyone knows is dangerous.
the funny thing is i could never see this happening to a causual player like ever.

 

[Das Koopa]

Smash Factor Prelude (June 18th) (Mexico) (85 Entrants) (Category 1)
1st: Mr. R
2nd: MKLeo ,
3rd: Wonf ,
4th: Pollo
5th: Klein
5th: Serge ,
7th: Javi ,
7th: Chag
9th: SF Lazh
9th: D. Elvis
9th: SF Citi
9th: Cloudy
13th: HY-And
13th: CS Kaze
13th: Bryan Z , ,
13th: Manzano

9th-13th was a puzzle to piece together but i did it with vods/PRs

 

[juddy96]

Smash Factor Prelude (June 18th) (Mexico) (100 Entrants) (Category 1)
1st: Mr. R
2nd: MKLeo ,
3rd: Wonf ,
4th: Pollo
5th: Klein
5th: Serge ,
7th: Javi ,
7th: Chag
9th: SF Lazh
9th: D. Elvis
9th: SF Citi
9th: Cloudy
13th: HY-And
13th: CS Kaze
13th: Bryan Z , ,
13th: Manzano

9th-13th was a puzzle to piece together but i did it with vods/PRs

It was 85 entrants, 1 bye and 14 people are slashed out in pools