Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[meticulousboy]

Possibly.

Kie - 2nd/180 at Sumabato 11
Umeki - 9th/309 at Apex 2016
Meru - 7th/62 at Salty Arena Cup U #1
Big Boss - 7th/103 at Emerald City III
~MuteAce~ - 4th/48 at MDC Tournament (beating Seibrik/DJ Jack)
Not Last - 7th/108 at SBAC 6
Manzano - 13th/85 at Smash Factor Prelude

This is good stuff. If Peach players keep that up, she may see moving up on the tier list placement. I'm still developing her meta in the meantime.

 

[|RK|]

Just saw - Ryuga vs Seagull Joe is one of the most perfect reasons why you can't decide who wins or loses an MU based on just who won or lost a particular match.

Also, obligatory BibleThump

 

[BunbUn129]

I find it interesting how Leo, a player who by all accounts is on a level with the top US players and also completely serious about winning, seems to have made the full switch from MK to Marth (with the obligatory Cloud secondary). Is he seeing something we don't? I mean, don't get me wrong, I've gone on long arguments on why Marth is pretty good, but seriously-mained-by-top-player good?

According to Mr. R, Leo thinks MK is the worst out of his 3 characters now.

Is he seeing something we don't? Yes. Or sort of, because some of us have his thoughts. For one, he knows Marth is a really good character now. Leo actually at the very beginning was playing Marth. He really likes the character. But that was during the old days when Marth was a bad character who also had to contend with the stupidities of Diddy Kong and Sheik. During one of his early tournies he busted out MK and came across the up air combo, allowing him to win through the utilization of an overtuned option.

1.1.4 buffed Marth and since then Leo has been slowly using him more and more. 1.1.5 came and gutted MK and Leo is now losing faith in the character he's so well known for using. Judging by Leo's current character usage, if he isn't maining Marth, at this rate he will be soon.

I know I'm going to get blasted by posts saying "MK is really really good don't underrate him." I am not confident in his perceived high-tier/top 15 position. But here's the silver lining: you don't have to be a high tier to be good in this game. Believe it or not, I want MK to be an amazing character as much as any of you want him to be, but I think it's better to be reasonable.

Marth's results are on the rise and if they keep up, in time he will be perceived to be on the same level as MK, if not better. And I'm happy for Marth mains because they're being rewarded for their efforts and patience with a character who was for a long time deemed mediocre.

 

[conTAgi0n]

In no other Smash game do you get rewarded for losing with more potential kill power. In this game you either fish for kills/go for hard reads (which is risky in of itself) or play solid neutral and let the kills come to you (what generally works well in previous Smash games). If you choose to play the latter more solid style, then there's a good chance your opponent will live to percents where rage becomes a huge factor. Outplay someone in neutral to 150+, only to get hit once by a rogue Smash attack and die at 80. This happens all the time in this game.

This got me thinking about rage.

Rage as a mechanic understandably receives a good deal of criticism. The complaint is typically that rage rewards you for getting outplayed and losing exchanges, and that it enables all sorts of jank kills.

Maybe the right way to think about this is that playing "safe" as we normally think of it is now just another risky game plan. Everyone accepts that committing to big reads and bold options can cost you an early stock if you miss. What we aren't so used to is the idea that gradually and safely racking up damage to percents where you can kill with safe options should also be treated as a risky strategy.

That doesn't necessarily sound like bad design either. The mechanics of smash seem to favor conservative play overall. The introduction of rage, coupled with the removal of kill confirms from low-risk characters, helps balance this out by making conservative play riskier. The less risk you are willing to take to finish the stock, the more vulnerable you end up leaving yourself to rage-fueled shenanigans. Instead of there being one clearly safer approach, you are faced with a trade off between different forms of risk.

I'm not quite ready to outright endorse the rage mechanic myself. Just looking at Lucario reminds me there are things I really don't like about the concept, and I have felt pretty dirty before stealing matches with rage TSRK for instance. However I do think there is a case to be made for rage being a positive addition to the game.

 

[Rizen]

Breakout III (June 18th) (Midwest) (96 Entrants) (Category 1)

13th: Zidico

Emerald City III (103 entrants) - Seattle, WA


13) Tsage

Smash Bros at Church 6 (108 entrants) - Los Angeles, CA
13) LinkedKnight

What is it with placing 13th?

Is anyone still thinking is a bottom 10 character? He has many, many results that suggest him being (imo) lower middle tier (better than , maybe just under ).

 

[Yikarur]

4. The overall jank surrounding this game.
srsly.
SRSLY.

What exactly is "jank" there lol

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Holy crap. Is there a SINGLE Smash 4 player that doesn't play Cloud?

Across 3 different tourny streams today, 80% or more of the matches I've watched have involved Cloud (including Cloud mirrors and secondaries that ended up winning easily). Maybe I'm just tuning in during those times but still.

This is seriously getting out of hand now.

I share your sentiments. I was watching the last few matches of the day on the APEX stream and around 75%+ of the matches I watched had a Cloud at some point. Generally for the whole set.

It's unfortunate because I never thought Cloud was nearly as ridiculous as people make him out to be. So many voices are crying out for nerfs and all that mumbo jumbo whereas I see him as a funamentally strong character but not necessarily too good. And yet everyone is playing him.

He's able to keep up with the best characters in the game despite getting next to nothing off of grabs. His recovery is mediocre at best, being very linear, not snapping to the ledge, and pretty limited. His fastest aerial option is frame 5 (nair) but it will rarely be enough to break him out of pressure. The character has weaknesses, several of them, yet he doesn't really lose to anything. In theory these traits would be what keep a charater from being a top tier, and yet Cloud isn't dictated by his weaknesses.

Are his normals THAT good? Is Limit a fundamentally broken tactic? To make up for all of his shortcomings and then some?

At this point I almost want him to be nerfed. Not because "he's too good" (because I still refuse to believe that) but because I'm sick of seeing him all over the place. I recognize that he is rather easy to pick up and I don't think that there's anything inherently wrong with that, but...it's just upsetting to see what kind of results people are able to pull with him after so little time.

 

[Nobie]

I was thinking about people's desire to tone down Cloud, and how Limit being ridiculous is often brought up.

So I have a bit of a fun (?) thought exercise.

Let's say they're going to nerf Cloud's mobility, but you get to decide whether they nerf Cloud's mobility in Limit, or his non-Limit mobility.

The former tones down Limit but keeps him a more solid character overall. The latter makes his normal state worse (sort of like Shulk), but Limit becomes a massive reward that arguably gives him the best mobility in the game (as it does now).

What do you choose? Do you expand the gulf between his strong and weak states to maintain the power/concept of Limit, or do you push the two sides together to make his ability to swing a match less potent?

 

[Wintermelon43]

What is it with placing 13th?

Is anyone still thinking is a bottom 10 character? He has many, many results that suggest him being (imo) lower middle tier (better than , maybe just under ).

13th at not really stacked regionals isn't really that good. It isn't like if he got 13th at a national or something. This is the kind of result that many other low tiers like Roy and Ganondorf get.

(Also Link isn't even remotely close to and 's level)

 

[Rizen]

I was thinking about people's desire to tone down Cloud, and how Limit being ridiculous is often brought up.

So I have a bit of a fun (?) thought exercise.

Let's say they're going to nerf Cloud's mobility, but you get to decide whether they nerf Cloud's mobility in Limit, or his non-Limit mobility.

The former tones down Limit but keeps him a more solid character overall. The latter makes his normal state worse (sort of like Shulk), but Limit becomes a massive reward that arguably gives him the best mobility in the game (as it does now).

What do you choose? Do you expand the gulf between his strong and weak states to maintain the power/concept of Limit, or do you push the two sides together to make his ability to swing a match less potent?

I'd tone down his limit mobility. Cloud's a great but not broken character. Limit buffs making an already great character the fastest in the air with the threat of LCS is too much.

13th at not really stacked regionals isn't really that good.

Have you looked at the list of attendees? Ally, Seagull, K9, Rayquaza07 to name a few...

 

[Trifroze]

I was thinking about people's desire to tone down Cloud, and how Limit being ridiculous is often brought up.

So I have a bit of a fun (?) thought exercise.

Let's say they're going to nerf Cloud's mobility, but you get to decide whether they nerf Cloud's mobility in Limit, or his non-Limit mobility.

The former tones down Limit but keeps him a more solid character overall. The latter makes his normal state worse (sort of like Shulk), but Limit becomes a massive reward that arguably gives him the best mobility in the game (as it does now).

What do you choose? Do you expand the gulf between his strong and weak states to maintain the power/concept of Limit, or do you push the two sides together to make his ability to swing a match less potent?

I tone down his hitboxes so that he's still nearly as good as now at the hands of someone who's experienced with him, but becomes considerably less potent as a pocket. (´◔ ‿ゝ◔`)

 

[Diddy Kong]

I always hated Cloud, even before he was in the game. Say whatever about pre-patch Sheik or Diddy or even Bayonetta as you wish, Cloud is the only character I legitimately consider brain-dead in this whole game's lifespan. Definitely should be #1 character on the next Tier List. Speaking, when is a new one gonna be made? It's been far too long, and we've probably had enough with the patches as of now.

 

[sedrf]

Pre patch diddy was infinitely more braindead than cloud is.
But whatever fits the narrative of insert character is killing the game,

 

[Teshie U]

What is it with placing 13th?

Is anyone still thinking is a bottom 10 character? He has many, many results that suggest him being (imo) lower middle tier (better than , maybe just under ).

I'd tone down his limit mobility. Cloud's a great but not broken character. Limit buffs making an already great character the fastest in the air with the threat of LCS is too much.


Have you looked at the list of attendees? Ally, Seagull, K9, Rayquaza07 to name a few...

Huge difference between something being a hard tournament to place top 32 due to dozens of strong players in attendance and top heavy events where ANYONE could easily make it to the spots under the handful of top players that showed up to collect free money.

A tournament can have top level talent while still leaving lower top 32 placings completely free. Look at MLG, PAX, GOML. When ZeRo or Ally walk into the room, it doesn't raise everyone's skill level or relevance. This is why you should look at notable wins, not placings.

 

[Rizen]

Huge difference between something being a hard tournament to place top 32 due to dozens of strong players in attendance and top heavy events where ANYONE could easily make it to the spots under the handful of top players that showed up to collect free money.

A tournament can have top level talent while still leaving lower top 32 placings completely free. Look at MLG, PAX, GOML. When ZeRo or Ally walk into the room, it doesn't raise everyone's skill level or relevance. This is why you should look at notable wins, not placings.

I agree but this really says nothing against Link being ranked where I have him. I haven't seen the brackets so if someone could post them I'd appreciate it. Also 13th is notably better than "top 32". Technically the 1st place winner got "top 32".

 

[Wintermelon43]

Pre patch diddy was infinitely more braindead than cloud is.
But whatever fits the narrative of insert character is killing the game,

Whoever's considered the best character fits the narrative of "Insert character is killing the game"

(Note that this next part isn't directed at you)

That's the problem with the character nerfs, if you give a smasher a top tier nerf, they will ask for another nerf (This should be a book).

Also, just gonna say, I remember I predicted Cloud would be "high tier, if not better" and you guys just said "lol no he seems mediocre low mid"

I predicted Corrin would be upper mid and you guys said "lol no he's gonna be top of high if not top tier"

I predicted Bayonetta would be S tier and possibly the best character in the game, and you guys said "lol no, same as Corrin, top of high or bottom of top tier"

Guess who ended up right on all three (Well Cloud ended up top tier not high tier but still......).

So people saying Cloud or Bayo are/were OP makes me laugh since you guys were saying they would be worse than I said and it ended up being the opposite.

Cloud and Bayonetta were not OP, Bayo had a losing Diddy matchup and had many questionable matchups aganist other characters such as zoners.

Cloud loses to Sheik for sure, and goes even with a few other characters too. He has less even matchups than Bayo, but his general viability is much closer to others than Bayo was. #1 might not even be Cloud; it might be Diddy. Sheik is pretty close to his viability too. Bayonetta wasn't OP, and Cloud is much less close to her. The only reason why people are saying he's OP is because he's the most overtuned character in the game right now. But nerf him and Diddy will be given this treatment. Nerf Diddy and Rosa will be given this treatment.

Cloud also has a clear flaw too in recovey, which people aren't abusing as much as they should. Just abusing this flaw more and he won't be as good as he is now. Cloud is clearly not OP, he's just overtuned in a few areas, and people saying he is OP are being salty for sure.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Everyone here is like "oh, Bayonetta got nerfed, so now everyone's moved on to Cloud to complain about."

Flawed argument, because people were complaining about him before bayo nerfs. We just didn't see the problem as clearly because Bayonetta was so god damn broken that we had bigger things to worry about.

I'm not going to make the bold claim that if Cloud gets nerfed, then we will never complain about another character. If anyone, Rosa would be next. But again, people have been voicing concerns about her for quite a while, so it would make sense.

 

[soniczx123]

With all these cases on clear inconsistency in these past few weeks along with multiple characters rising in viability, is it sure to say that 2 stock might be on its way out as the standard ruleset?

 

[Teshie U]

I agree but this really says nothing against Link being ranked where I have him. I haven't seen the brackets so if someone could post them I'd appreciate it. Also 13th is notably better than "top 32". Technically the 1st place winner got "top 32".

Some notable events where getting 17th was extremely free had 150-200 entrants. I'm sure getting 13th in a 100 man bracket is nothing to pat yourself on the back for. What is that like 3-2? If this is the best Link can do, that definitely gutter trash tier.

 

[L9999]

Cloud also has a clear flaw too in recovey, which people aren't abusing as much as they should. Just abusing this flaw more and he won't be as good as he is now. Cloud is clearly not OP, he's just overtuned in a few areas, and people saying he is OP are being salty for sure.

If Cloud fell like a brick and had no disjoint I would believe you, but no.recovery is exploitable, but it is not exploitable enough. You cannot consistently gimp him because 1) air mobility 2) stall options to mess with edgeguards 3) huge hitboxes to get off edgeguarders. 4) getting limit when he is about to die. The problem with Cloud is not that he is OP, is that he is extremely obnoxious to play against, EVERYONE and their cats play him, and that its really easy to learn him and win.

 

[Rizen]

Some notable events where getting 17th was extremely free had 150-200 entrants. I'm sure getting 13th in a 100 man bracket is nothing to pat yourself on the back for. What is that like 3-2? If this is the best Link can do, that definitely gutter trash tier.

Can you name said events? I feel like you and wintermellon are grasping at straws. Link has many results from several players, too many to be 1 player carrying him or an outlier.

Who said that was the best solo Link can do?
http://smashboards.com/rankings/smash4-at-church-singles.6238/event
4th of 113, Scizor.

http://supersmashcon.challonge.com/wiiusingles
17th of 755, Rooky.

Keep in mind I'm not claiming he's high tier but I think his results show he's not as bad as other low tiers.

 

[paperchao]

If Cloud fell like a brick and had no disjoint I would believe you, but no.recovery is exploitable, but it is not exploitable enough. You cannot consistently gimp him because 1) air mobility 2) recovery options 3) huge hitboxes to get off edgeguarders. 4) getting limit when he is about to die. The problem with Cloud is not that he is OP, is that he is extremely obnoxious to play against, EVERYONE and their cats play him, and that its really easy to learn him and win.

At the same time, cloud being so common is only going to result in everyone learning the matchup well enough to add a skill cap to differentiate lower clouds from better clouds. Also, his limit recovery can be interrupted if he is going deep as the second part doesn't have a hitbox.

 

[HoSmash4]

Clouds uair actually shifts his hurtbox down from frame one so it works as a decent string breaker.

 

[Wintermelon43]

If Cloud fell like a brick and had no disjoint I would believe you, but no.recovery is exploitable, but it is not exploitable enough. You cannot consistently gimp him because 1) air mobility 2) recovery options 3) huge hitboxes to get off edgeguarders. 4) getting limit when he is about to die. The problem with Cloud is not that he is OP, is that he is extremely obnoxious to play against, EVERYONE and their cats play him, and that its really easy to learn him and win.

I agree with 1, 3, and 4 (although I think people overrate this one, he isn't goong to get limit EVERY time). But for 2..... What options? All he has is Up-B

Can you name said events? I feel like you and wintermellon are grasping at straws. Link has many results from several players, too many to be 1 player carrying him or an outlier.

Who said that was the best solo Link can do?
http://smashboards.com/rankings/smash4-at-church-singles.6238/event
4th of 113, Scizor.

http://supersmashcon.challonge.com/wiiusingles
17th of 755, Rooky.

Keep in mind I'm not claiming he's high tier but I think his results show he's not as bad as other low tiers.

But his theory says he's WORSE than low tier, so when you even them up he's low tier

 

[Peppermint1201]

With all these cases on clear inconsistency in these past few weeks along with multiple characters rising in viability, is it sure to say that 2 stock might be on its way out as the standard ruleset?

Considering the fact that almost all top players are either neutral or prefer 2 stock, I think it's highly unlikely. The unfortunate fate of the Miis tells us enough.

On an unrelated note, are we not going to talk about Rayquaza's Bowser 2-0ing Ryuga's Corrin? Chaos also took a game off of Nietono yesterday. I think Bowser could join the club of Game and Watch and Little Mac by having some really dumb tools balanced by having really bad tools elsewhere. He'll probably make more splashes but I doubt he'll see consistent results.

 

[L9999]

I agree with 1, 3, and 4 (although I think people overrate this one, he isn't goong to get limit EVERY time). But for 2..... What options? All he has is Up-B

Let me rephrase that to "stalling options". He can stall with Side B (and why lost it I don't know) and with his mobility he can jump whenever it pleases him (unless it is against ). It isn't much, but the slightest stall ticks the timings to gimp Cloud.

 

[soniczx123]

Considering the fact that almost all top players are either neutral or prefer 2 stock, I think it's highly unlikely.

They "prefer" 2 stock as they believe that will keep viewerships high. Most of them don't really enjoy 2 stock and would play 3 stock if the option was there.

It's mostly the TOs that prefer 2 stock.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

But his theory says he's WORSE than low tier, so when you even them up he's low tier

Theory does not say he's worse than low tier. Theory says he's near the top of low tier, which his results are matching.

You're going to have to start accepting that your theory of characters like Link and Marth is incorrect one of these days. Particularly when their extended span of results says otherwise. (You think Link is like bottom 5 or 10, he's been getting okay AKA better than bottom tier and most of low tier results for a while now. Heck he's doing a tad better than some of the mid tiers. And Marth's results for the last 2-3 months pretty much rip apart your theory of him)

That's part of being analytical: being willing to accept when your theory is wrong. I don't think much of Corrin, I don't have a problem accepting that he's gotten some results in this past 2 weeks in terms of pure placements and that if it continues I'll have to adjust where I feel he fits accordingly. In terms of knocking off noticeable names he got uh, basically nothing but pure results still matter a lot for the mid tier range.

 

[meticulousboy]

If Cloud fell like a brick and had no disjoint I would believe you, but no.recovery is exploitable, but it is not exploitable enough. You cannot consistently gimp him because 1) air mobility 2) stall options to mess with edgeguards 3) huge hitboxes to get off edgeguarders. 4) getting limit when he is about to die. The problem with Cloud is not that he is OP, is that he is extremely obnoxious to play against, EVERYONE and their cats play him, and that its really easy to learn him and win.

Yet everyone plays Mario, but no one is labeling Mario as OP. What's the point? Is it the DLC hype? That ship has sailed already.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Cloud's Side-B is a pretty poor stall option compared to his Neutral-B. I thought this was common knowledge? Side-B completely destroys any aerial momentum and yes I know his air accel isn't TERRIBLE but it's not great either. At least air blade beam lets you shift backward or forward.

 

[TDK]

Yet everyone plays Mario, but no one is labeling Mario as OP. What's the point? Is it the DLC hype? That ship has sailed already.

Not everyone has a pocket Mario.

 

[TimidKitsune129]

Theory does not say he's worse than low tier. Theory says he's near the top of low tier, which his results are matching.

You're going to have to start accepting that your theory of characters like Link and Marth is incorrect one of these days. Particularly when their extended span of results says otherwise. (You think Link is like bottom 5 or 10, he's been getting okay AKA better than bottom tier and most of low tier results for a while now. Heck he's doing a tad better than some of the mid tiers. And Marth's results for the last 2-3 months pretty much rip apart your theory of him)

That's part of being analytical: being willing to accept when your theory is wrong. I don't think much of Corrin, I don't have a problem accepting that he's gotten some results in this past 2 weeks in terms of pure placements and that if it continues I'll have to adjust where I feel he fits accordingly. In terms of knocking off noticeable names he got uh, basically nothing but pure results still matter a lot for the mid tier range.

In regards to Corrin, Frozen upset False at KTAR XVIII and Cosmos beat Hyuga at Shockwave 86. The latter was just a weekly, but it's something.

The following weren't in the past two weeks, but Cosmos has also beaten Sol and Dakpo (these two probably aren't as notable as the previous) in past Shockwaves, which have gone unnoticed because this thread doesn't care about weeklies.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Mario may be easy to play, but he has plentiful flaws that keep his skill ceiling from being too high, despite his skill floor being so low.

Mario has very good buttons and his option select is very straightforward. Trying to approach? Space with bairs and dairs in the neutral, look for an opening to land a dash grab. Getting juggled or thrown around by an extended string? Throwing out your frame 3 nair never hurt, and if that didn't work, proper DI coupled with your top notch aerial mobility and acceleration will do the trick. Trying to force an approach? Charge fludd, or use fireballs.

The thing is though, none of these tools are actually that much better than those around him in the tier. They're just easier to get a grip on as a new player. His options also have clear counterplay. Disjoints that outrange his stubby normals and faster characters that contest his frame data can give him a harder time.

Cloud, on the other hand, does not have clear counterplay, and his options actually are significantly safer, stronger, and generally better than those in the tier around him. He forces 99% percent of the cast to approach him, outspeeds a good amount of characters even out of limit, kills earlier than anyone in the game bar Ryu, and, though most people here don't like to acknowledge it, objectively outclasses every other sword user in this game competitively.

You can have your opinions on Cloud, but there is no doubt that he is on a different level from Mario.

 

[CHOMPY]

Smash Bros at Church 6 (108 entrants) - Los Angeles, CA

1) Aphro
2) K9sbruce
3) Charliedaking
4) ImHip
5) Aarvark
5) Rich Brown
7) Not Last
7) Elegant
9) S2H
9) Dynamo
9) Kiraflax
9) Chompy
13) EonWave
13) Ikez
13) LinkedKnight
13) MastaMario

Note: I didn't actually watch this tournament, the characters were based off previous vods and power rankings, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on some characters

I also used Lucario as well

 

[C0rvus]

>Bad character has players who don't suck and get some decent placings
>"When are we gonna start moving this character up in the tier list?"
Every character gets results (except Charizard apparently). Your low tier isn't special, sorry. Weekly reminder that SOMEONE has to be in the lower end of the cast.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Hyuga sends ESAM to losers 2-1 with Toon Link.

 

[Joey T.]

It's pretty clear that Cloud is a strong character who might just be the best character in the game. But (hypothetical case) considering he is going to stay the same from now on because of the end of patches; isn't there an easy counterpick character that can somehow deal with him? We all pretty much agree that Sheik can stand toe to toe with Cloud, but Sheik isn't exactly an easy character to use. Is the meta fated to get to a situation where top level only consists of Clouds and Sheiks? I mean, in a game that is, as everyone claims, one of the most balanced fighting games, surely there must be more than one option to beat Cloud that doesn't come down to player skill.
One way to approach this is: what are exactly Cloud's weaknesses and which characters can abuse this options?

 

[Diddy Kong]

With all these cases on clear inconsistency in these past few weeks along with multiple characters rising in viability, is it sure to say that 2 stock might be on its way out as the standard ruleset?

I'd personally like to see that, 3 Stocks seems like a more healty metagame ruleset because it gives more chances at making a turn in the match (something that should happen more often in Sm4sh than other games due to overall balance) and makes accidents less fatal as they are now.

 

[Teshie U]

Can you name said events? I feel like you and wintermellon are grasping at straws. Link has many results from several players, too many to be 1 player carrying him or an outlier.

Who said that was the best solo Link can do?
http://smashboards.com/rankings/smash4-at-church-singles.6238/event
4th of 113, Scizor.

http://supersmashcon.challonge.com/wiiusingles
17th of 755, Rooky.

Keep in mind I'm not claiming he's high tier but I think his results show he's not as bad as other low tiers.

Most "majors" have a decent amount of top 32 being very easy to obtain without beating anyone notable. As I said earlier, MLG had people essentially walk in the door and place 17th due to poor seeding and a huge skill drop off after the top players. All PAX and convention events tend to have this as well. There are so many big events that its unlikely all the big names go to one. This weekend alone you have events that split ZeRo, Ally and Dabuz into different parts of the country and people placing top 17-25 there will be looked at like "oh but this top 10 player was there".

Just saying, don't quote us placings for why a character is good, quote me some wins. A convention tournament in my city yesterday had 100 entrants and top 4 was all unranked players because everyone good didn't go. Number of entrants relative to placement means nothing. Placing 13th/96 is the same as 13th/13 if you didn't beat anyone.

Considering the fact that almost all top players are either neutral or prefer 2 stock, I think it's highly unlikely. The unfortunate fate of the Miis tells us enough.

On an unrelated note, are we not going to talk about Rayquaza's Bowser 2-0ing Ryuga's Corrin? Chaos also took a game off of Nietono yesterday. I think Bowser could join the club of Game and Watch and Little Mac by having some really dumb tools balanced by having really bad tools elsewhere. He'll probably make more splashes but I doubt he'll see consistent results.

Almost every top player thats been to TX for 3 stock has said they enjoy it over 2 stock. Taking a smaller sample size just benefits the frauds and generates fake hype for upsets that shouldn't be happening. Even ZeRo basically just said 2 stock is good because money and twitch viewers and called Bo5 2 stock is a compromise, not "what top players prefer".

 

[TCT~Phantom]

It's pretty clear that Cloud is a strong character who might just be the best character in the game. But (hypothetical case) considering he is going to stay the same from now on because of the end of patches; isn't there an easy counterpick character that can somehow deal with him? We all pretty much agree that Sheik can stand toe to toe with Cloud, but Sheik isn't exactly an easy character to use. Is the meta fated to get to a situation where top level only consists of Clouds and Sheiks? I mean, in a game that is, as everyone claims, one of the most balanced fighting games, surely there must be more than one option to beat Cloud that doesn't come down to player skill.
One way to approach this is: what are exactly Cloud's weaknesses and which characters can abuse this options?

Cloud's greatest weaknesses are his ability to get comboed more than one would think he should be, and his recovery.

For the combo part, we all know how good nair, uair, and dair are. But the thing is, if a combo does not get too overextended, then they won't function as a get out of jail free card. Once one gets in on cloud, its easy to rack up some percent. Compared to most of the other top tiers, cloud's escape options in a disadvantage state are not nearly as strong. Is cloud's disadvantage terrible? No. Is it good? No. If the opponent plays smart while in the advantage and knows how to pressure cloud, then he will be having a bad time. While he could run away to reset to neutral, he could give up stage control, and risk being sent offstage early. Basically any top tier can put this sort of pressure on a cloud, and surprisingly to most of the people here, a good chunk of the cast can as well. While getting in against him is a task, once you are in his mediocre disadvantage starts to show.

Now on to recovery. I know this one has been stated to death. But taking a risk and edge guarding against cloud is a big thing. If one can tech reliably if there is a stage spike, then there is nothing much to fear besides a fair, which is decently telegraphed. As long as your recovery is not terrible, its rather easy to pester him offstage.

The only issue with cloud is how strong limit makes him. It patches up recovery, gives him a kill move, and makes his mobility awesome. The thing is, Limit is not an auto out, a Cloud has to stop when someone approaches. His grab at most just sends you away for him to charge limit, and his OOS game, while good, is no where near on a level like other characters.

In all honestly, Cloud is likely not even the best character in the game; He is just one of the easiest top tiers. Him and Mario are the two easiest top tiers in this meta right now to play. I personally see Sheik, Diddy, Ryu, and maybe ZSS as stronger characters than him.

Also, if we go by results, then Cloud's victories at majors have been scarce. He places decently and he is very common, but he is not dominating top placings any more than Sheik, Diddy, or ZSS have done.

TDLR; Cloud is not the best in the game. He has a lot of insane tools, but his mediocre disadvantage and his poor recovery. Limit charging is punishable, and the reason he is doing well is he is just so easy to pick up compared to any top tier not named mario. He is easily top ten, probably top 5, but he is not the best in the game by a long shot.