Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Wintermelon43]

Theory does not say he's worse than low tier. Theory says he's near the top of low tier, which his results are matching.

You're going to have to start accepting that your theory of characters like Link and Marth is incorrect one of these days. Particularly when their extended span of results says otherwise. (You think Link is like bottom 5 or 10, he's been getting okay AKA better than bottom tier and most of low tier results for a while now. Heck he's doing a tad better than some of the mid tiers. And Marth's results for the last 2-3 months pretty much rip apart your theory of him)

That's part of being analytical: being willing to accept when your theory is wrong. I don't think much of Corrin, I don't have a problem accepting that he's gotten some results in this past 2 weeks in terms of pure placements and that if it continues I'll have to adjust where I feel he fits accordingly. In terms of knocking off noticeable names he got uh, basically nothing but pure results still matter a lot for the mid tier range.

Except it isn't wrong? Link beats VERY few characters and gets destroyed by almost all top and high tiers (Well, the ones that everyone agrees is that anyway). He has bad mobility, bad frame data, pretty bad recovery, and many almost-useless moves. His theory defitenly say "bottom tier" as his flaws outweigh his strengths. His results are what get him out of bottom tier, but he stays in bottom 13 at the least due to his theory.

Marth also suffers from a bad matchup spread as well, and his strengths aren't as good as people say

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Except it isn't wrong? Link beats VERY few characters and gets destroyed by almost all top and high tiers (Well, the ones that everyone agrees is that anyway). He has bad mobility, bad frame data, pretty bad recovery, and many almost-useless moves. His theory defitenly say "bottom tier" as his flaws outweigh his strengths. His results are what get him out of bottom tier, but he stays in bottom 13 at the least due to his theory.

Marth also suffers from a bad matchup spread as well, and his strengths aren't as good as people say

define theory. Im interested to know what you think it means. You go on rambling about good theory/bad theory alot of the time, im just curious to know what it means according to you.

 

[Wintermelon43]

define theory. Im interested to know what you think it means. You go on rambling about good theory/bad theory alot of the time, im just curious to know what it means according to you.

How good a character is in general. EXCLUDING results. Just the character itself.

Not to be confused with how good a character COULD be in the future, which is potential

 

[Kofu]

Except it isn't wrong? Link beats VERY few characters and gets destroyed by almost all top and high tiers (Well, the ones that everyone agrees is that anyway). He has bad mobility, bad frame data, pretty bad recovery, and many almost-useless moves. His theory defitenly say "bottom tier" as his flaws outweigh his strengths. His results are what get him out of bottom tier, but he stays in bottom 13 at the least due to his theory.

Marth also suffers from a bad matchup spread as well, and his strengths aren't as good as people say

Tell me what Link's useless moves are. Go on, I'm listening. Because I'm pretty sure that there are instances where at least one of his moves is a better choice than the others.

His recovery isn't that bad; he has mixups between Spin Attack, tethering, and occasionally a bomb. It's not great but it shouldn't be straightforward to gimp him.

His mobility is overall poor. But remember that he becomes the third fastest falling character in the game when he fastfalls and has three aerials with landing lag of 12 frames or less (4 with ZAir). He's also got excellent disjointed range and several projectiles.

Link's essentially a heavy character who has traded a little weight for the ability to force the opponent to approach and the ability to set up traps. Is that a great combination? Not really. He probably loses to all the top tiers. But if you can't safely and consistently pressure his shield (something easier said than done when he has a huge tether grab), you're going to struggle to get in on him.

 

[Nu~]

Except it isn't wrong? Link beats VERY few characters and gets destroyed by almost all top and high tiers (Well, the ones that everyone agrees is that anyway). He has bad mobility, bad frame data, pretty bad recovery, and many almost-useless moves. His theory defitenly say "bottom tier" as his flaws outweigh his strengths. His results are what get him out of bottom tier, but he stays in bottom 13 at the least due to his theory.

Marth also suffers from a bad matchup spread as well, and his strengths aren't as good as people say

You love to list good/bad attributes, but you never explain why they make the character terrible or great overall. Kofu already explained why the "useless moves" assertion is incorrect.

There is a lack of actual analysis in your posts on character viability (remember the Kirby days...) that disturbs me. Also, are you going to explain what you mean by the last part?: "his strengths aren't as good as people say"

 

[paperchao]

The way link is designed seems to be based on just keeping the opponent in the air. He is very capable of juggling with up air and his bomb throws, and his tether grab gives him a huge danger zone in midrange making it very efficient for catching landings, which has synergy with his projectiles. His d-throw combos are short, and can be jumped out of, but now he's put his opponent in a rough spot for landing. He also seems to be designed to control the ledge, with bomb drops, and his nair, he can cover ledge options fairly well, and he has dair for offstage which murders predictable recoveries. His bad frame data checks this as he was given a jab cancel that made his cqc quite dangerous, but now that's gone due to whiny patch culture. Link also hates the fact that most top tiers are defined by godly disadvantage these days. Giving him back his jab cancel and a faster nair would do wonders for the character.

 

[LancerStaff]

It's pretty clear that Cloud is a strong character who might just be the best character in the game. But (hypothetical case) considering he is going to stay the same from now on because of the end of patches; isn't there an easy counterpick character that can somehow deal with him? We all pretty much agree that Sheik can stand toe to toe with Cloud, but Sheik isn't exactly an easy character to use. Is the meta fated to get to a situation where top level only consists of Clouds and Sheiks? I mean, in a game that is, as everyone claims, one of the most balanced fighting games, surely there must be more than one option to beat Cloud that doesn't come down to player skill.
One way to approach this is: what are exactly Cloud's weaknesses and which characters can abuse this options?

I'd say Pit's an easy pick with good theory behind him. He's got good enough mobility to keep up with him and can pester him from anywhere with arrows to prevent limit charge, he can stuff Cloud's Dair diagonally with Uair easily, he's got strong enough edgeguarding to make Cloud's life offstage a nightmare, largely equal disjoints with less startup to challenge his, and generally does well against the basic swordsman gameplan with his strong midrange. Just don't recover like a moron and you're good to go.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Not everyone has a pocket Mario.

I'm genuinely surprised they don't, honestly. Ally has admitted multiple times that he doesn't even regularly practice the game with Mario and does stuff (tho he sometimes hits the lab).

My opinion on Mario is that he's good and that if you play this game by default you probably have a Mario.

 

[Kung Fu]

I read the bit on Pikachu and how his Uthrow to thunder/RAR thunder isn't really a kill confirm. Is this because it can be air dodged before you perform the thunder after the Uthrow?

 

[Fenny]

I was thinking about people's desire to tone down Cloud, and how Limit being ridiculous is often brought up.

So I have a bit of a fun (?) thought exercise.

Let's say they're going to nerf Cloud's mobility, but you get to decide whether they nerf Cloud's mobility in Limit, or his non-Limit mobility.

The former tones down Limit but keeps him a more solid character overall. The latter makes his normal state worse (sort of like Shulk), but Limit becomes a massive reward that arguably gives him the best mobility in the game (as it does now).

What do you choose? Do you expand the gulf between his strong and weak states to maintain the power/concept of Limit, or do you push the two sides together to make his ability to swing a match less potent?

Cut his Limit mobility, for sure.

If you were to reduce Cloud's base mobility, then the payoff that comes from Limit would push Cloud players to play the ever-irritating Limit Camping strategy even more than a lot of them already do. Not to mention it'd be an unnecessary nerf, since his base mobility isn't the issue. Tone down his Limit, and he becomes a character with solid but modest strengths and powerful but non-overbearing tools at his disposal opposed to someone who goes from decent to 'EX Mode Activated!' on demand crap.

 

[outfoxd]

Again, i apologize for building my assertions off my DH bias, but Link kind of plays like he does if he was slower, had to remain still when setting up, but had far more brutal power. Watching our Link work he gets you to do a lot of suboptimal stuff with his kit by frustration and anticipation alone. It's just that Link has intimidating power that he uses to scare you into rough options.DH has a similar game plan except he's mostly annoying you until something kills you by surprise instead of disjointed, monstrous power.

 

[Rizen]

Again, i apologize for building my assertions off my DH bias, but Link kind of plays like he does if he was slower, had to remain still when setting up, but had far more brutal power. Watching our Link work he gets you to do a lot of suboptimal stuff with his kit by frustration and anticipation alone. It's just that Link has intimidating power that he uses to scare you into rough options.DH has a similar game plan except he's mostly annoying you until something kills you by surprise instead of disjointed, monstrous power.

Link really should never be standing still. His setting up is mostly SHs and bombslides. Here's a sort of recent match of Scizor's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xe7yKL4-C84 Link has a lot of frame trapping and movement tech.

 

[outfoxd]

I mean in terms of the specials themselves. Most of Links projectiles save dropped bombs stem from a single point while DH is free to move when can or gunmen are primed. I feel like it changes the nature of their games.

 

[Jams.]

With all these cases on clear inconsistency in these past few weeks along with multiple characters rising in viability, is it sure to say that 2 stock might be on its way out as the standard ruleset?

3 stock is never going to happen as long as Smash supermajors are tied into multi-game events like CEO and EVO. These events will never run 3 stock because they simply can't afford the time to do so, and will not prioritize Smash over the other games they run. Then it just becomes a case of follow the leader, where other events run 2 stock because the supermajors do.

 

[Teshie U]

Run 3 stock and people won't be begging for Bo5 top 32/48/64. Just run Bo3 the entire tournament because none of the wins will be fraudulent.

 

[paperchao]

Run 3 stock and people won't be begging for Bo5 top 32/48/64. Just run Bo3 the entire tournament because none of the wins will be fraudulent.

This, 3 stock also makes it so rage is less of a factor, something that everyone in the smash community complains about

 

[Emblem Lord]

How good a character is in general. EXCLUDING results. Just the character itself.

Not to be confused with how good a character COULD be in the future, which is potential

That's not theory.

That's the character.

 

[soniczx123]

3 stock is never going to happen as long as Smash supermajors are tied into multi-game events like CEO and EVO. These events will never run 3 stock because they simply can't afford the time to do so, and will not prioritize Smash over the other games they run. Then it just becomes a case of follow the leader, where other events run 2 stock because the supermajors do.

Even when the meta comes to a point where matches go so quick that adding an extra stock won't add extra time.

With that logic, why do we run Bo5 before top 3 if Supermajors like EVO don't do it?

 

[ThePokéYoshi]

There were some people who were using Apex as an example of how common Cloud is at this point, but then you look at at Low Tier City, and there are no Clouds to be seen in all of Top 48. In fact, the character variety there is really good.

 

[Jamurai]

What is it with placing 13th?

Is anyone still thinking is a bottom 10 character? He has many, many results that suggest him being (imo) lower middle tier (better than , maybe just under ).

How many characters does he have better results than?

With all these cases on clear inconsistency in these past few weeks along with multiple characters rising in viability, is it sure to say that 2 stock might be on its way out as the standard ruleset?

Difficult to say, the status quo laid out in the first year or two of the game is usually unlikely to change because it is what top players are used to, and they have the loudest voices on most issues. Hopefully this, in combination with 3 stock already being the standard in Europe and some other places, and fair success of some "trial" 3 stock tournaments a while back, may sway TOs' and players' views.

 

[Gunla]

I'm genuinely surprised they don't, honestly. Ally has admitted multiple times that he doesn't even regularly practice the game with Mario and does stuff (tho he sometimes hits the lab).

My opinion on Mario is that he's good and that if you play this game by default you probably have a Mario.

Everyone has a Pocket Mario by the fact that it's Mario and he's one of the easiest characters to use for a good reason, but you don't really see Pocket Marios because Pocket Cloud is a thing. That's my two cents on it.

 

[paperchao]

Everyone has a Pocket Mario by the fact that it's Mario and he's one of the easiest characters to use for a good reason, but you don't really see Pocket Marios because Pocket Cloud is a thing. That's my two cents on it.

Pocket mario is also vulnerable to pocket luigi and pocket cloud, as well as secondary dk

 

[RonNewcomb]

I was thinking about people's desire to tone down Cloud, and how Limit being ridiculous is often brought up.

So I have a bit of a fun (?) thought exercise.

Let's say they're going to nerf Cloud's mobility, but you get to decide whether they nerf Cloud's mobility in Limit, or his non-Limit mobility.

The former tones down Limit but keeps him a more solid character overall. The latter makes his normal state worse (sort of like Shulk), but Limit becomes a massive reward that arguably gives him the best mobility in the game (as it does now).

What do you choose? Do you expand the gulf between his strong and weak states to maintain the power/concept of Limit, or do you push the two sides together to make his ability to swing a match less potent?

Expand the gap between vanilla and Limit, to dissuade Clod from just throwing out LB moves speculatively.

But really I'd rather lower just aerial accel & decel so drifting back to stage, he'd be lower in the air when he arrived.

They "prefer" 2 stock as they believe that will keep viewerships high. Most of them don't really enjoy 2 stock and would play 3 stock if the option was there.

It's mostly the TOs that prefer 2 stock.

I don't understand why top whatever moves to bo5 instead of to 3stock. Bo5 takes forever.

In regards to Corrin, Frozen upset False at KTAR XVIII and Cosmos beat Hyuga at Shockwave 86. The latter was just a weekly, but it's something.
.

FWIW Toon Link has a hard time vs Corrin. Part of Tink's comfort range is Corrin's tipper range, basically.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Everyone has a Pocket Mario by the fact that it's Mario and he's one of the easiest characters to use for a good reason, but you don't really see Pocket Marios because Pocket Cloud is a thing. That's my two cents on it.

I mean you're not wrong. It's part of why looking solely at stuff like usage ratio is a really bad idea. There were a **** ton of Clouds at APEX mostly cause our best Clouds all showed up to that one but where were they at any of the other numerous events going on?

I bet though that if we replaced them with Mario, people would just make a little analytical note of it and move on. Maybe some people would be like "Oh I guess Mario's really good" and then just keep on keeping on.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Everyone has a Pocket Mario by the fact that it's Mario and he's one of the easiest characters to use for a good reason, but you don't really see Pocket Marios because Pocket Cloud is a thing. That's my two cents on it.

Heck I've never touched Mario and I could probably whip him out and emulate things I've seen from Ally's and Anti's gameplay fairly easily. Its not exactly complicated to understand or execute at a basic level. At early percents down throw and either Dair or Utilt chain, uair is for chaining (end with Up B, reversed Up B if near the blastzone), RAR Bairs, Nair is combo breaking, dash attack is for 2-framing, spam Usmash when going for the kill, mix in the occasional Dsmash or Fsmash read. Pepper in fireballs as needed, cape is amazing, FLUDD should always be charged or nearly charged and used to disrupt or gimp.

Would it be at their level? Heck no. But I could probably at least emulate it pretty well.

 

[soniczx123]

How many characters does he have better results than?


Difficult to say, the status quo laid out in the first year or two of the game is usually unlikely to change because it is what top players are used to, and they have the loudest voices on most issues. Hopefully this, in combination with 3 stock already being the standard in Europe and some other places, and fair success of some "trial" 3 stock tournaments a while back, may sway TOs' and players' views.

The other argument that I hear is that sponsors wouldn't be interested in Smash 4 if it was 3 stock.

What sponsor would want to invest in a game where anyone can lose and win? It's basically lottery.

 

[Jams.]

This is ruleset discussion rather than character discussion, so this will be my last post on the topic.

Even when the meta comes to a point where matches go so quick that adding an extra stock won't add extra time.

This statement doesn't make any sense. If you add a stock to each game you're going to have longer matches, full stop. There has been extensive debate and studies performed about how much time 3 stock adds. I think the conclusion was that the time added isn't significant, but from personal experience TOing, there have been times where it has made a difference between finishing and running late.

People also talk about how fast the game plays now compared to a year ago. It's true, as players have refined the punish game, each win in neutral matters that much more. Then when we're all exclaiming that games are too short, a MU where campy Sonic is optimal happens and suddenly Twitch chat is filled with ResidentSleepers. This game has a wonderful variety of viable characters, but as a consequence we have to deal with the fact that MUs can play at vastly differing speeds.

With that logic, why do we run Bo5 before top 3 if Supermajors like EVO don't do it?

3 stock changes the meta (albeit only slightly) and your mindset during the game, whereas Bo5 just adds a couple extra games. I feel that it's generally viewed as a more significant change, which is why local TOs are less likely to deviate from what majors run. As a counter-argument, rules like Mii legality (+customs legality) and stage list are basically dictated by what majors run, so it's not like this is a phenomenon I made up.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Heck I've never touched Mario and I could probably whip him out and emulate things I've seen from Ally's and Anti's gameplay fairly easily. Its not exactly complicated to understand or execute at a basic level. At early percents down throw and either Dair or Utilt chain, uair is for chaining (end with Up B, reversed Up B if near the blastzone), RAR Bairs, Nair is combo breaking, dash attack is for 2-framing, spam Usmash when going for the kill, mix in the occasional Dsmash or Fsmash read. Pepper in fireballs as needed, cape is amazing, FLUDD should always be charged or nearly charged and used to disrupt or gimp.

Would it be at their level? Heck no. But I could probably at least emulate it pretty well.

I like the Spam USmash bit, you're not wrong. I mean hell you can get away with DSmash or FSmash over and over again too because people think those moves have more recovery than they actually do. I died when M2K ran square into like, the third FSmash in a row from Ally at a tournament not too long ago? **** works and it looks like it shouldn't but Mr. Nintendo is pretty cool like that (he's fun)

DSmash is really great/stupid for when you whiff a move and people think they can hit a button. Nah fam catch this frame 5 breakdance.

Oh also Mario's probably easier to use than Cloud overall because he has better answers to shield that net him more immediate damage + he can get out of disadvantage ezpz. Doesn't even have to deal with getting gimped occasionally, I mean if he's hit out of DJ it can sometimes happen?

 

[meticulousboy]

Hyuga sends ESAM to losers 2-1 with Toon Link.

Hyuga did lose to Larry Lurr 2-3.
https://youtu.be/2dmC4wxW5JA

 

[Das Koopa]

random weird stuff at ltc4

-Karna out at 33rd... lost to Sethlon and Mikeffect.
-Dakpo also out at 33rd, lost to Zei and Illusion.
-P2P With Gibus in Top 8 loser's side against ESAM.
-Hyrule Hero gets 17th.
-MJG continuing the tradition of getting 9th.
-MVD busters (Not that weird I guess but still)
-Wii Fit Trainer main named funcrazyfish gets 9th

top 8 is

ZeRo v Cosmos

Hyuga v Nairo

---
DKWill v Mook ,

ESAM v P2P with Gibus ,

 

[FullMoon]

Is Gibus really going just Greninja or is he using the other Pokémon as well?

Because dang Greninja has been doing well this weekend.

 

[Das Koopa]

Not sure if he's gone Lucario or not. I'll look into it when I'm writing results down

 

[Y2Kay]

random weird stuff at ltc4

-Karna out at 33rd... lost to Sethlon and Mikeffect.
-Dakpo also out at 33rd, lost to Zei and Illusion.
-P2P With Gibus in Top 8 loser's side against ESAM.
-Hyrule Hero gets 17th.
-MJG continuing the tradition of getting 9th.
-MVD busters (Not that weird I guess but still)
-Wii Fit Trainer main named funcrazyfish gets 9th

top 8 is

ZeRo v Cosmos

Hyuga v Nairo

---
DKWill v Mook ,

ESAM v P2P with Gibus

Gibbs uses

Also shout outs to @Illusion. getting 9th at a major with the frog.

This has been a really good weekend for the frog!


Das Koopa he used to beat Illusion ( to avoid dittos)

 

[Ninety]

3 stock is never going to happen as long as Smash supermajors are tied into multi-game events like CEO and EVO. These events will never run 3 stock because they simply can't afford the time to do so, and will not prioritize Smash over the other games they run. Then it just becomes a case of follow the leader, where other events run 2 stock because the supermajors do.

If that were the case, wouldn't every event run Bo3?

 

[PK Gaming]

random weird stuff at ltc4

-Karna out at 33rd... lost to Sethlon and Mikeffect.
-Dakpo also out at 33rd, lost to Zei and Illusion.
-P2P With Gibus in Top 8 loser's side against ESAM.
-Hyrule Hero gets 17th.
-MJG continuing the tradition of getting 9th.
-MVD busters (Not that weird I guess but still)
-Wii Fit Trainer main named funcrazyfish gets 9th

top 8 is

ZeRo v Cosmos

Hyuga v Nairo

---
DKWill v Mook ,

ESAM v P2P with Gibus ,

Rooting for Cosmos

I always considered him to be the best Corrin and now it's his time to prove it

 

[|RK|]

Three quick observations:

1) Mario doesn't shut as many people out as Cloud, and he has more bad matchups than Cloud.
2) Ally brags that he doesn't practice Smash in general. Not just Smash 4 Mario, but not for Brawl, PM, etc.
3) After watching MVD vs Hyuga, I'm thinking that Toon Link has a similar weakness to Kirby (though his weakness comes from shields instead of bad mobility) - he doesn't want to play from behind. Sure, MVD could have been tilted after his game 2 loss, but I noticed he wasn't playing the patient game too much in game 3. My guess is because he was far behind (and sure, he could have been more patient).

Falln has said it multiple times, but Kirby's strength comes from low-percent leads, and forcing the opponent to approach him for the rest of the game. I'm starting to think that - by nature of TL's losing to shields - he wants to play the same way. Because when you're at 100% and your opponent is at 20%, the fact that you can't get an opportunity to convert becomes that much more important.

Just a thought.

 

[Das Koopa]

also ForbiddenOne keeping the dream alive getting 13th

 

[Teshie U]

Cosmos doesn't travel and was floated through pools due to getting top 3 at the TLOC 1k Qualifier for LTC4 I think. So far he has made top 6 by beating only Dallas players so this will be a huge jump for him to fight Zero. We will finally see if he just has his own region figured out or if he really can stand up with Corrin.

Its also the best player of Corrin's worst matchup so...

Funny he could actually wind up getting top 3 at this big event without beating anyone outside his region.

 

[meticulousboy]

The way link is designed seems to be based on just keeping the opponent in the air. He is very capable of juggling with up air and his bomb throws, and his tether grab gives him a huge danger zone in midrange making it very efficient for catching landings, which has synergy with his projectiles. His d-throw combos are short, and can be jumped out of, but now he's put his opponent in a rough spot for landing. He also seems to be designed to control the ledge, with bomb drops, and his nair, he can cover ledge options fairly well, and he has dair for offstage which murders predictable recoveries. His bad frame data checks this as he was given a jab cancel that made his cqc quite dangerous, but now that's gone due to whiny patch culture. Link also hates the fact that most top tiers are defined by godly disadvantage these days. Giving him back his jab cancel and a faster nair would do wonders for the character.

What if he had his rapid jab back? How much would that help this low tier character?

 

[DblCrest]

https://twitter.com/AllyOrNotAlly/status/744302982246858752

Smash 4 being Smash 4 I guess...

What is up with the picture on the top of Ally's Twitter ? XD

>Bad character has players who don't suck and get some decent placings
>"When are we gonna start moving this character up in the tier list?"
Every character gets results (except Charizard apparently). Your low tier isn't special, sorry. Weekly reminder that SOMEONE has to be in the lower end of the cast.

People are still going to fight tooth and nail not to be in the lower end.